Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
KJP

Cleveland: Public Square Redesign

Recommended Posts

On Reporters Roundtable year-end review, Chris Quinn says he expects RTA / Public Square issue to return in 2018.  https://t.co/hiiXQAxksj


"The boss rolls up in a new Lamborghini and tells his staff 'The greatest part about America is that hard work breeds wealth. So if you work hard and dedicate yourself tirelessly to the task at hand, I can get another new Lamborghini next year.'” -- Overheard in a Cleveland bar.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I was on Public Square last night with my family ice skating and taking in the lights.  It was very crowded....and buses occasionally went thru the square....and no one died and everything coexisted very nicely.  The biggest issue for me are the butt ugly concrete barriers...please remove them!!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It was a dead issue and then someone died...

 

I take the health line through to Public Square 2-3x a week, the lap around adds a little over a minute to the commute... leave earlier if it's an issue. We don't need buses running through our FINALLY thriving urban green space. Additionally, crime was an issue on Public Square this October. I know diverting buses around won't necessarily stop this, but a bulk of the violence is perpetrated by people who get dropped off by the bus there.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I was on Public Square last night with my family ice skating and taking in the lights.  It was very crowded....and buses occasionally went thru the square....and no one died and everything coexisted very nicely.  The biggest issue for me are the butt ugly concrete barriers...please remove them!!!

 

I was also on the square last night after dinner at Urban Farmer. So we walked all the way across the square and everything coexisted nicely. It was a nice urban setting, like a German platz where the transit runs right through it. I'll argue that the square feels less secure most times throughout the year without transit on it because there are fewer eyes on the street. And it was much more than a minute that was added to trips going through the square.  How soon we forget the steel wall of busses that surrounded the square like the Maginot Line, and how unsafe it was for buses to make all the extra turns. A woman died for crying out loud.

FB_IMG_1513957330855.jpg.b13a93f66fcc605fc020ef76c4c015d9.jpg

FB_IMG_1513957300857.jpg.9c0518a929332d44671c2f40b54893b6.jpg

FB_IMG_1513957310407.thumb.jpg.1ceb7872c6b49f63be6684809e58e25f.jpg


"The boss rolls up in a new Lamborghini and tells his staff 'The greatest part about America is that hard work breeds wealth. So if you work hard and dedicate yourself tirelessly to the task at hand, I can get another new Lamborghini next year.'” -- Overheard in a Cleveland bar.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Additionally, crime was an issue on Public Square this October. I know diverting buses around won't necessarily stop this, but a bulk of the violence is perpetrated by people who get dropped off by the bus there.

 

Public Square is the public transit hub of Northeastern Ohio, so I don't think whether or not buses go through Superior or around the perimeter is very relevant to this.

 

All in all, it's much harder to cross the streets around the square to get into it (especially along the southern and western edges, where most people are going to enter from, and at the intersection with Ontario St.), than to cross Superior to get from one half to the other. By closing Superior to buses you're only going to make that congestion worse, the benefits of a unified square are going to be neglible at that point. Let the buses run through. Though they do need to get rid of those barriers and make a nice pedestrian crossing in the middle.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The original plans called for Superior going underneath the square. They didn't do it because of the cost, but whoever made that design knew this would be an issue from the beginning or they wouldn't have put it in the plan. Maybe one day.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A downtown loop ala Chicago would be nice, either above, at grade, or underground. The interesting thing is it's already halfway done. All they'd need to do is connect to the Waterfront Line at Muni Lot. Down E. 9th, 12th, or 13th and Prospect back to TC. A streetcar ala Cincinnati perhaps, assuming a subway or El would be cost prohibitive. If Cleveland is wildly successful in the next 20 years I could see it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

^I love the the waterfront line loop extension idea KJP came up with a while back. The one that uses E 17th to cut south.

 

Hindsight, I know but they should have really built a subway down E 9th during the 60-70s' urban renewal days. Muni lot area, Saint Clair, Euclid, Gateway (to be) and Terminal Tower stations. AND then set parking maxes along the corridor.  I digress.  Public Square I think your our most ideal option to reduce a lot of the bus traffic is a Detroit/Lorain surface rail route to a Detroit Superior subway though public square, surfacing around reserve square. $$$  :-*

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I know diverting buses around won't necessarily stop this, but a bulk of the violence is perpetrated by people who get dropped off by the bus there.

 

Tell us how this argument makes sense?  The "perps" would still get dropped off there, just on the corner of the square rather than in the center.  #FACEPALM

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

^I love the the waterfront line loop extension idea KJP came up with a while back. The one that uses E 17th to cut south.

 

Hindsight, I know but they should have really built a subway down E 9th during the 60-70s' urban renewal days. Muni lot area, Saint Clair, Euclid, Gateway (to be) and Terminal Tower stations. AND then set parking maxes along the corridor.  I digress.  Public Square I think your our most ideal option to reduce a lot of the bus traffic is a Detroit/Lorain surface rail route to a Detroit Superior subway though public square, surfacing around reserve square. $$$  :-*

 

I actually don't see the direct connection between more rail stops downtown and less buses on the square. I imagine most people changing buses downtown are headed out of downtown, not to an office building on East 9th. A downtown subway of some kind could drive more ridership for sure, and I'm obviously a fan of the idea, but I don't think it'd decrease the number of buses on the square. Unless they tried to move the main bus transfer point, which I wouldn't support because I think the bus and rail hubs should be the same place.

 

A Superior Ave trench under the square would probably the best way to make the square less congested with traffic. A kind of underground bus hub down there with a tunnel/walkway right to the rail station and an easy flight of stairs or elevator ride up to the square. And a loop for the buses to turn around.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Cool! Now how about replacing those damn Jersey barriers with bollards!

 

Watch Lake Erie ice form, break from public art in Public Square

http://www.rockthelake.com/buzz/2017/11/watch-lake-erie-ice-form-break-public-art-public-square/

 

I wish the jersey barrier replacement was higher priority than more public art in Public Square. LAND Studio is behind both projects. There seems to be an abundance of art already in place. I am interested to see where this video kiosk is planned.  I would prefer if the televisions in Rebol incorporated the live video feeds. 

 

Gotta make sure the Cimpermans are getting paid even though Joe has left Council.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I actually don't see the direct connection between more rail stops downtown and less buses on the square. I imagine most people changing buses downtown are headed out of downtown, not to an office building on East 9th. A downtown subway of some kind could drive more ridership for sure, and I'm obviously a fan of the idea, but I don't think it'd decrease the number of buses on the square. Unless they tried to move the main bus transfer point, which I wouldn't support because I think the bus and rail hubs should be the same place.

 

A Superior Ave trench under the square would probably the best way to make the square less congested with traffic. A kind of underground bus hub down there with a tunnel/walkway right to the rail station and an easy flight of stairs or elevator ride up to the square. And a loop for the buses to turn around.

 

Look at two of the west side's most heavily used bus lines, 22 and 26. If they were rolled into a single surface rail to a Detroit/Superior subway that ran to E 17th (their current turnaround) I think this would alleviate a lot of bus traffic through public square. This would require bus transfers at some point but I think a more dependable, high frequency dual corridor outweighs that inconvenience and I personally wouldn't mind seeing a more bus feeder type system implemented around the region. Building up and feeding your most successful lines might be a good way to strengthen our fragile transit system. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I know diverting buses around won't necessarily stop this, but a bulk of the violence is perpetrated by people who get dropped off by the bus there.

 

Tell us how this argument makes sense?  The "perps" would still get dropped off there, just on the corner of the square rather than in the center.  #FACEPALM

 

I'm aware, bruv. But two stops, one on Superior near the 200 building, and one near W.3rd and Superior, would disperse crowds slightly better. These stops still exist and make the central stop quasi-unnecessary.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I actually don't see the direct connection between more rail stops downtown and less buses on the square. I imagine most people changing buses downtown are headed out of downtown, not to an office building on East 9th. A downtown subway of some kind could drive more ridership for sure, and I'm obviously a fan of the idea, but I don't think it'd decrease the number of buses on the square. Unless they tried to move the main bus transfer point, which I wouldn't support because I think the bus and rail hubs should be the same place.

 

A Superior Ave trench under the square would probably the best way to make the square less congested with traffic. A kind of underground bus hub down there with a tunnel/walkway right to the rail station and an easy flight of stairs or elevator ride up to the square. And a loop for the buses to turn around.

 

Look at two of the west side's most heavily used bus lines, 22 and 26. If they were rolled into a single surface rail to a Detroit/Superior subway that ran to E 17th (their current turnaround) I think this would alleviate a lot of bus traffic through public square. This would require bus transfers at some point but I think a more dependable, high frequency dual corridor outweighs that inconvenience and I personally wouldn't mind seeing a more bus feeder type system implemented around the region. Building up and feeding your most successful lines might be a good way to strengthen our fragile transit system. 

 

I guess what I was saying is that the people who take transit to a destination downtown might get off at Public Square, but they most likely then immediately start walking to their final destination as opposed to hanging out. People who are transferring at Public Square probably are not headed downtown but to a point beyond downtown. However in my first post I didn't think about people who are leaving downtown to go back home who wait for buses on the Square... I was mostly thinking about transfers. Also there are people who will take the rapid downtown and hop on a trolley or a bus to go to a further destination. I could see how a direct West Side transit connection to workplaces east of the Square could help allieviate some bus traffic.

 

By feeder system do you mean buses that would connect to rail lines as opposed to going all the way downtown? That's kind of what's happened in the east side suburbs with the Healthline and Red Line. #9, #7, #32, etc.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I know diverting buses around won't necessarily stop this, but a bulk of the violence is perpetrated by people who get dropped off by the bus there.

 

Tell us how this argument makes sense?  The "perps" would still get dropped off there, just on the corner of the square rather than in the center.  #FACEPALM

 

I'm aware, bruv. But two stops, one on Superior near the 200 building, and one near W.3rd and Superior, would disperse crowds slightly better. These stops still exist and make the central stop quasi-unnecessary.

 

I'm afraid I still don't understand.  If all these violent people get dropped off on the next block, they'll be too lazy to walk to the square and engage in more violence? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I guess what I was saying is that the people who take transit to a destination downtown might get off at Public Square, but they most likely then immediately start walking to their final destination as opposed to hanging out. People who are transferring at Public Square probably are not headed downtown but to a point beyond downtown. However in my first post I didn't think about people who are leaving downtown to go back home who wait for buses on the Square... I was mostly thinking about transfers. Also there are people who will take the rapid downtown and hop on a trolley or a bus to go to a further destination. I could see how a direct West Side transit connection to workplaces east of the Square could help allieviate some bus traffic.

 

I see where you are coming from. I am not proposing more stops downtown to reduce traffic in the square, per se. I'm advocating that a Detroit/Superior bridge subway, coming in from the west side could eliminate two major bus lines (#22 #26) from even coming downtown, and clogging up Superior through the square in the first place. The subway would have a station under public square to serve both transfers and finally destinations. This would would lay the foundation for the other major west side routes to do the same i.e. #51's (i'm interested to see if the metro health BRT re-branding boosts ridership)

 

By feeder system do you mean buses that would connect to rail lines as opposed to going all the way downtown? That's kind of what's happened in the east side suburbs with the Healthline and Red Line. #9, #7, #32, etc.

 

Correct. Yes, we are starting to see this method implemented and it looks to be successful thus far. I'm highly sensitive to everyone's transit needs in Cleveland, as well as the need for the system to make peoples lives easier by reducing the need for transfers. At the same time I don't think direct downtown bus routes trying to run to every nook and cranny of the region is efficient nor sustainable. Plus the negative effect all the buses coming into downtown have on the city, including public square. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't think it's possible to reduce downtown bus traffic without compromising the system's ability to function.  The whole point is that everything drops off within a block or two of everything else.  Take that away and crosstown trips could increase by hours, which is likely to increase the number of desperate people one encounters in the square.

 

If we had more crosstown routes, like we used to, that might solve a lot of it at a reasonable cost.  But there will still be people whose home and job are not conveniently located along one crosstown route.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm afraid I still don't understand.  If all these violent people get dropped off on the next block, they'll be too lazy to walk to the square and engage in more violence? 

 

No, I don't think anyone says "It would be better if I committed this violent act whilst in the heart of Public Square." What I am saying is that the bus stop on Ontario just South of the Square near Jack has a checkered history as does the one on Superior nearest W. 3rd. If these were the primary drop-offs, unassuming people and families on Public Square would be less likely to be targets.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Has anyone heard anything to remedy the "temporary" solutions for homeland security safety after reopening Superior Ave?  The Plain Dealer reported back in August that the Group Plan Commission and LAND Studio were going to have plans to present the public by the need of 2017. I haven't seen anything presented.  Field Operations was supposedly hired to do this.  I wish the focus was placed on remedying this before any more public art is scattered throughout the park.  http://www.cleveland.com/architecture/index.ssf/2017/08/james_corner_field_operations.html

 

CLEVELAND, Ohio - James Corner Field Operations, the leading landscape architecture firm that designed the renovation of Public Square, is working on what it hopes will be a high-quality solution to address homeland security concerns about terrorists using vehicles to plow into the space.

 

 

Also I read in the Plain Dealer. http://www.cleveland.com/naymik/index.ssf/2018/01/cle_chatter_metroparks_to_sett.html

 

Speaking of the Metroparks: Don't expect to find Chief Marketing Officer Sanaa Julien back in the park system. You may recall that the Group Plan Commission, which manages Cleveland's Public Square and other spaces, appointed Julien in 2016 as a loaned executive from the Metroparks to guide branding and event planning for the newly renovated square. The agreement between Metroparks and GPC expires Feb. 28, 2018. The Metroparks said Julien is not coming back and her position has long been filled. Under the loaned-executive agreement, the GPC pays her salary and the Metroparks provides health benefits and pays contributions toward her retirement. Tony Coyne, chairman of the GPC, said Julien has been a godsend and the commission is working out details to keep her as its own.

 

Lastly it is interesting to revisit the planning back in 2014  where the budget was stated to be $30 million dollars and that Superior to remain open was always the design plan. How all the safety issues fell through the cracks I would love to know.

 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z8z8DEVcPo0.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Newest public art in Public Square.  I am all for public art but I don't see the merit for this.  IMO it feels more about a billboard with a political statement.  Also I am intrigued by the photo that  shows a vehicle in the pedestrian  promenade path .  I thought all the jersey barriers and circular planters were to stop any vehicles from its ability to injure pedestrians. lol

 

Public Square needs to be a calming escape but the Square is now overloaded with art chosen by LAND Studio. Two of these installations have political overtones. 

 

breanne_Super thrilled to have worked with @landstudio and @egweeds on this commission for the Public Square billboard project in Cleveland. Last spring I silkcreened a small run of protest posters featuring "SILENCE DO-NO-GOOD" as a way to update one of Benjamin Franklin’s pen names, Silence Dogood. Benjamin Franklin is a celebrated figure in the print world, but as a human/artist/teacher and intermittent publisher myself, it was frustrating (and not at all surprising) to learn that he was a cautious abolitionist. He owned slaves and then released them but never truly publicly opposed or denounced slavery. For those who will see it, I hope the text will serve as a reminder or WAKE UP to speak out against white supremacy, bigotry, homophobia, transphobia, misogyny, hatred, and racism. ❤️?????????????

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Looks like Breanne, the human/artist/teacher, and a few posters here so far, left out Cleveland's most pressing social hate issue: gun violence.

 

Wonder how much Land Studio and Breanne pocketed for this less than creative design.  Isn't that the Gay Rainbow, or a variation of it, backdrop with an addition of ''No'' to Franklin's "Silence Dogood" plopped on it?  This human/artist/teacher Breanne uses Ben Franklin in her ''art'' and then questions his abolitionist credentials while mentioning that he freed his slaves.  wtf.  Guess Breanne never heard the expression ''actions speak louder than words''.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Weird spot for this artwork, for sure. Something Cleveland specific would seem to make more sense. A mural of the landmarks, a digital installation showing residents of the city  ala the Millennium Park fountains, hell even a ‘living wall’ type of thing would all be worlds better than this. Land Studio seems to come up with some pretty weird and tacky ideas.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Couple of Terry Pluto like thoughts:

 

-- Rainbow colors lighten up a rather drab January scene.

 

-- Still it looks like a billboard.

 

-- Not quite sure what moral stance there is to be had here. Considering PS was redesigned as an "upgrade" partly to remove the poorest citizens from a public square, maybe we should start there first. It seems like the poorest have no spokespeople.

 

-- This artist likely has never made really difficult decisions as old Ben Franklin did in his day, so it's easy to second guess.

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Weird spot for this artwork, for sure. Something Cleveland specific would seem to make more sense. A mural of the landmarks, a digital installation showing residents of the city  ala the Millennium Park fountains, hell even a ‘living wall’ type of thing would all be worlds better than this. Land Studio seems to come up with some pretty weird and tacky ideas.

 

The piece is temporary. Like all the pieces in that sport. By design- it's a curated art space. I'm sure some will be Clevelandy, some will be drab, some will be wholly apolitical. The benefit of this format is that people shouldn't get too exercised if they don't like a particular piece, especially one that is fairly innocuous like this.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The public doesn't see the reference of Ben Franklin...so nobody that doesn't follow Erins IG account would interpret it that way.  If i'm a random passerby, i'm reading that and thinking..."OK, if i witness something, i should speak up"...this is in response to the types of spineless garbage that takes place at places like Penn State, NBC with Matt Lauer, Michigan State, etc. I'm not thinking about speaking up and taking down republicans when i read that.

 

Is there evidence that this particular piece of art had anything to do with removing citizens from Public square?  The city of Cleveland tried to usher homeless to facilities to sleep on the near east side a long time before this piece of art.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

https://www.cleveland.com/architecture/index.ssf/2018/06/ugly_public_square_barriers_co.html

 

Public Square's Jersey barriers could be replaced with bollards if $2M can be raised: Group Plan Commission

 

By Steven Litt, The Plain Dealer

CLEVELAND, Ohio - A new design commissioned by the city-county Group Plan Commission shows how bollards and other measures could replace the concrete barriers that have marred the renovation of Public Square for more than a year.

 

 

Not sure if this really works as they intend to shorten the crosswalk distance to 24' The bollard's are still 48' between the north and south placement. There is 12' of unprotected exposure eon either side between the bollard and the ADA ramps . Isn't the whole point to protect the pedestrian from vehicular safety and terrorism?  I would rather see most of these bollards implemented with more tree plantings. 

d5e_screenshot20180613at30704pm.png.fb7e105ba7b19682a87fc1c4a6952418.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The jersey barriers are there because Mayor Jackson tried to pull a bait and switch on the design.  Instead of allowing the square to function as designed he decided to put in the barriers to try to boost his faux concern of terrorism.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The jersey barriers are there because Mayor Jackson tried to pull a bait and switch on the design.  Instead of allowing the square to function as designed he decided to put in the barriers to try to boost his faux concern of terrorism.

 

Wasn't it not designed to ADA specifications though? That wouldn't be Jackson's fault.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What would jersey barriers have to do with ADA compliance? If the crosswalk areas are a surface that is flush with the street (as I believe they are) there wouldn't be an issue with accessibility.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Restore formatting

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...