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Cleveland: Public Square Redesign

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   It is also sad to see that the homeless advocates choose this area to pass out free meals to the homeless.  Isn't there a better spot to do this?  As much good as they think they are doing, they don't realize this is the showcase area of the city(or should be). 

 

That's a pretty arrogant statement, don't you think?  Where should these people feed the homeless that would work better for you? 

 

As someone who lives right near Public Square, may I suggest we use the neighborhood park closest to you instead?

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I agree, X. I can't say that I'd be thrilled if Edgewater Park became known as a place for the homeless to get food.

 

I think as others have said - the churches and social service agencies need to collaborate, and find an appropriate place to provide their services. And for the love of god, some of you people need to get a grip - no one has suggested that the homeless be rounded up and gassed. However, I think there is a better place for them (and groups that provide food for them) than Public Square.

 

X makes a very important point that few have addressed - no one would dream of setting up a portable soup kitchen in Market Square in Ohio City, Huntington Beach in Bay Village, or along Lake Shore in Bratenahl. It's easy for those of you who don't have it next door to say there's nothing wrong with it.

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I think that there are a lot of things that need to happen-

 

1. collaboration and coordination of food services, including moving them to some sort of structured, secured facility

 

2. reform of the emergency shelter system, including deconcentration of the shelters to minimize security issues and conflicts.

 

3. more mental health services, including drug and alcohol addiction, to make sure that people aren't a danger to themselves and others and to get people cleaned up and ready for the next step of their lives

 

3. a better system of non-emergency housing, including permanent supportive housing to give people the stability to begin to reenter society

 

I realize I've been coming down hard on the homeless and the mentally ill here the last few days, but I'm sick of people living in the burbs' thinking that those of us who live downtown should be society's babysitters for people who can't take care of themselves for one reason or another.  This is a society wide problem, and the effects of it should be dealt with, one way or another, by all of society, not just those of us who happen to be proximate.

 

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This is a society wide problem, and the effects of it should be dealt with, one way or another, by all of society, not just those of us who happen to be proximate.

 

OK this is getting waaaay off topic...but along these lines I do think it is terribly unfair for public housing occupants (and the City of Cleveland) that public housing is almost uniformly located in the 'hood instead of spread throughout the county or region, including in suburbs with strong schools and growing employment.  Section 8 vouchers address this to some extent but it's not like you can find a cheap apartment in Gates Mills.  I'm not sure there are any politically viable solutions to this (I don't exactly see Strongsville residents embracing "inclusionary zoning") but it sure sucks for everyone in the city and inner ring 'burbs.

 

Anyway, back to Public Square, is there anyone out there who prefers the square all diced up for reasons other than bus/traffic flow?

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^leave the group plan alone.

 

As danindc said, worry about getting more people working/lving/etc downtown, and let them outnumber the homeless like any other city.

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I like the idea of closing the square to traffic, to create a large public space for people. But if that's to happen, and the buses are routed around the square's roadways, there needs to be traffic lights at the four main intersections to allow pedestrians to safely cross else they risk getting bowled over by a swift-moving bus. And, I believe RTA needs a staffed customer service center right on the square (not off in some building that a visitor, a newcomer to Cleveland or an RTA newbie has to search for).

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But if that's to happen, and the buses are routed around the square's roadways, there needs to be traffic lights at the four main intersections to allow pedestrians to safely cross else they risk getting bowled over by a swift-moving bus.

 

Interestingly, in Indianapolis, the Monument Circle has no traffic lights, is brick (thus slowing down traffic a tad), and buses circle around it.  And that is in the heart of their city, so I don't generally agree that Public Square would need lights, if you find a way to make the roads around Public Square more functional for pedestrian access to the square.

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In my opinion there is little that needs to be done to the actual square. I like it very much as is. I like that the three largest skyscrapers anchor the square, including the light rail transit hub, shopping center, and hotels of Tower City. I also think traffic flows well and doesn't really prevent people from crossing the streets to enjoy the park. What needs to be done to the square is more around it. For instance Lower Euclid needs more life. I guess the visitors bureau and Greater Cleveland Partnership are realocating to the Higbee building. It would have been nice to put retail here, but it might be a good place for these two organizations, especially if they allow visitors to walk on and get information. The May Co. Building should return to retail in some capacity. I think a bookstore would be great here personally, and intuitively I think it would be quite profitable.

 

What is going on in the Warehouse District and E.4th should make Cleveland's Public Square more vibrant. I think Stark's plan is great and I think he explicitly mentioned the importance of his project to funnel pedestrains from the Warehouse District, around Public Square, and down Euclid by his proposed "superblock" between Public Square and the WHD. Once this "superblock" goes in, E.4th progresses, and hopefully the May Co. Building can be converted to retail (again my preference would be a bookstore/cafe), you might see more people on Public Square.

 

Stark's plan still shows the parking lot directly off the square and across from the Renaissance vacant. Maybe someday the next skyscraper could go here. By then there might also be an effort to create some kind of piazza along the side of the square for dining, etc to capitalize on the foot traffic and views of the square.

 

In terms of closing off automobile traffic, I don't think it would do much. Its more around the Square or what anchors its edges that is more important. After I studied last semester in Europe I saw a lot of these pedestrian streets and zones that were once open to automobiles. I saw some very successful ones, and some that weren't so great. I think they only really work well when the city is HEAVILY touristed with visitors without cars and are shopping, dining, and walking between all the historic sights. You also have to keep in mind that shopping malls don't really exist in Europe. And these zones have kind of filled this void. But with Tower City space available on Public Square, I don't see the need or practicalbilty in creating a strictly "pedestrian zone" street to create a mall outside. It also doesn't really work downtown because of our high concentration of businesses in skyscrapers. In Europe because everything is so medium-density they can get away with not harming commuters. The workers and employers downtown like Key Bank, Terminal Tower and BP tennants would just be inconvenienced and it would create this huge traffic problem.   

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ColDayMan, I'm not familiar with Indianapolis' Monument Circle. How many buses are routed through there? Whenever I'm on Cleveland's Public Square during rush hours, I'm always astonished at the number of buses that converge there.

 

I would think that closing off traffic through the middle of the square would make it easier to transfer among the multitude of bus routes. And I don't think vehicular traffic is all that heavy around Public Square. As others have said, there are other roads that go around Public Square about a block from it (the exception being between Euclid and Superior -- a holdover from when downtown was designed for pedestrians). Ironically, Bob Stark proposes to close off Public Square to traffic in his plans because, in his words, it's not as functional a public space as it could be if the quadrants were united and redesigned (excepting the Soldiers and Sailors Monument).

 

I agree having more development around it will make it more usable, but imagine if it that happened, plus it became a huge united public space and had all RTA buses routed around it with an RTA customer service center on the square (either in a storefront or in the middle of the square). I can see it being a vibrant place with lots of people making their way through it at all hours. It could truly become Cleveland's heart again.

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I've always dreamed about tunneling the busses underneath the square so that it could be one contiguous space. However, this would create other issues that make my idea sound stupid.

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ColDayMan, I'm not familiar with Indianapolis' Monument Circle. How many buses are routed through there? Whenever I'm on Cleveland's Public Square during rush hours, I'm always astonished at the number of buses that converge there.

 

I would think that closing off traffic through the middle of the square would make it easier to transfer among the multitude of bus routes. And I don't think vehicular traffic is all that heavy around Public Square. As others have said, there are other roads that go around Public Square about a block from it (the exception being between Euclid and Superior -- a holdover from when downtown was designed for pedestrians). Ironically, Bob Stark proposes to close off Public Square to traffic in his plans because, in his words, it's not as functional a public space as it could be if the quadrants were united and redesigned (excepting the Soldiers and Sailors Monument).

 

I agree having more development around it will make it more usable, but imagine if it that happened, plus it became a huge united public space and had all RTA buses routed around it with an RTA customer service center on the square (either in a storefront or in the middle of the square). I can see it being a vibrant place with lots of people making their way through it at all hours. It could truly become Cleveland's heart again.

 

Generally, I can't tell you, as IndyGo isn't exactly the greatest public transportation in the Midwest, but I can testify (AMEN!) that there were several buses (at the same time) going around the circle.  Again, I believe the brick street had a large part of it.  And as you said, Public Square doesn't get alot of traffic, so why not close the middle streets through the square and make it one large square?  Can't hurt it.

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The square is largely unused now. Do yu think making the four quadrants one large square will make it more used? I don't know, if they do combine them I kind of see it as being one large traffic island instead of four? To remedy the vacant square I think Vulpster's ideas should be implemented (retail) if the square were combined so there would be more traffic that would justify blocking Superior and Ontario through the square.

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You would need to add some amenities.  I would like to see a sunken amphitheater.  You need places where events can go on and where people will feel good about their surroundings.  As is, each quadrant is surrounding by traffic on all four sides.  If they were combined, you wouldn't feel as isolated.  You need to be able to stretch out, play frisbee, watch a small concert. 

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Around a good portion of the perimeters, yes.  The inward looking quality of each of the squares is a major problem.  They all turn their backs on the surroundings, and try to create their own interior space seperate from all else.  This creates an isolated experience, with all that implies for a sense of safety.

 

If the squares could be opened up a little so that they don't all act as seperate little parks and the traffic could at least be tamed somewhat with raised brick paving, then that would work wonders for making the square more usuable.

 

It would be great if the buses that go through the square and use it as the main transfer point could go to some sort of structured transit center instead, similar to the East Side Transit Center discussed on another thread.  Maybe if the buses were routed under the square, the transit center could be built down there, with the square reconstructed on top.

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Hey, look at how the traffic is handled at great spaces like Dupont Circle in DC. Except here, you've got two streets that could go under the square. Would an intersection under the square work? Imagine the whole thing under there being a giant transit center and pedestrian promenade, topped with a public park at the former street level.... It's fun dreaming!

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Perhaps the buses could go below to a transit center, and the cars could be sent into narrower roads through the square that are made of raised pavement, slowing them to 25 mph.  Some of the roads above could also be closed- either the outside circular, or the cut-across roads.

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Interesting you mention Dupont, KJP.  I was thinking of Dupont in my earlier post, because that is a fantastic public space.  Part of it, I think, has to do with what I'll call the "approachability" of the circle.  From across the circle, you can easily see grass, trees, the fountain, and benches--it invites you to come on over.  The walls around the quadrants of Public Square have a tendency to hide the public space from view, and discourage one from crossing the street. 

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I can't speak to Dupont Circle (though I've heard much praise for it!), but I do like thinking about alternatives, both radical and simple for Public Square.  I doubt we'll see the sunken layers approach anytime soon, but I like the idea.  And as several of you have said, and I may have said on this thread some time ago, it's about the programming of the square, rather than the reconfiguration. 

 

We have an opportunity with four unique quadrants to make something special out of each one.  The only one that seems to be pretty set in stone (no pun intended) is the southeast quadrant, where the monument dominates and creates a landmark and beacon visible all the way down Euclid (pretty awesome, by me).  The other squares seem to be open to interpretation, but I haven't seen much of anything new or creative done with them anytime recently.  Though, I have been away for several years, so I hope to be proven wrong this spring and summer!  I know that Parkworks and others have been working with the Malls, Star Plaza and Market Square to give them more active uses.  These things are great and right on what we need to be working on in the short-term.

 

Of the ideas mentioned here that I especially like are the transit center (with staff!) and new retail uses.  I always think of NYC and Portland, which were my two most recent homes before moving back to Cleveland.  Both have premier public spaces with visitor centers and a high density of pedestrian and transit uses focused on them. 

 

I think of Bryant Park in NYC with its outdoor cafes, sanwich kiosks, outdoor reading area (courtesy of the Public Library), movable seating, movie screenings, and subway stations.  This was not a great place to go in the not-too-distant past, but a major effort by neighborhood businesses, residents and corporations pulled it all together and made it one of the best public spaces in the world.  (see the Project for Public Spaces site for more...) 

 

Portland's Pioneer Square is a transit hub for buses and light rail, has a Starbucks built within its boundaries, features a series of water features, chess tables, a wide open plaza for acitivities and a newly opened visitor center.  And it is notoriously well policed...try riding your bike across it and you'll surely be nabbed by an officer!

 

There are also simple things like the dog park in Thompkins Square (east village, nyc) or transitory things like the farmers market in Union Square (NYC) and other, smaller markets elsewhere throughout the city and country. 

 

I think the addition of the Downtown Alliance will make a noticeable difference to the cleanliness and the perception of how friendly our city is to visitors.  Also, having the visitors bureau located on the square will surely add a draw and demand better services and programming...

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I really like a lot of the ideas you guys have thrown out there, especially the ones about the roads going under the square.  Seems like you just close off all the streets around the square (E 2nd, Euclid, and what looks like W 2nd and Frankfort, although I'm not sure what the last 2 are technically called there...) and just worry about Superior and Ontario.  Ohter places have subterranean intersections (see lower Wacker in Chicago), so it should be feasible.  Although I seem to remember hearing that there's stuff under the Soldiers and Sailors monument (anyone else ever heard this?)  Not sure if it would be out of the way or moveable.

 

I also agree with the comments about the square being 4 little mini-squares.  The whole place doesn't feel cohesive between all the roads criss-crossing and surrounding it and the inward focus of the quadrants.  To me, it just doesn't work as it is.  And while programming would help, it's an awkward space for that to happen with it carved up so much.  For instance, during the Cleveland Orchestra's 4th of July concerts, you really can't see the orchestra unless you're right in front of the Terminal Tower, b/c all of the low-rise trees in the quadrants block the view.

Also definitely need to fill up that parking lot on the western edge.

 

One other thought (utterly infeasible, I know) would be to move the monument to the center of the square (where Ontario & Superior intersect today).  It just feels a little awkward with it off in the corner.  I'm willing to bet that's not really an option, but it's nice to dream...

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Shaker Square is set up pretty much the same as public square isn't it?  They get plenty of traffic through there, and it does pretty well.  The main differences seem to be that it is smaller, the streets are a bit narrower, traffic is a little slower, street parking is available (which we can debate might be more detrimental than beneficial), and the entire square is ringed with mixed-used retail, entertainment, dining and offices.  Also there is tons of residental adjacent all around the square.  Plus, for festivals and the farmer's market they regularly close off the streets that cross through the center of the square, turning it into one large space. 

 

So I don't know if closing down the streets would make the difference, but it would be nice if they could close them for special events.  On weekends, traffic should certainly be divertable.  I think Public Square would come back to life if people were living around it and there were good dining and shopping options ringing the square.

 

But as to the general concern of where traffic goes when streets are closed, I remember Jane Jacobs writing about this in Dark Age Ahead.  A road through a park near her home (I think) was closed after being hotly contested by those saying the traffic would divert to adjacent streets and clog them, but instead traffic throughout the neighborhood decreased and no one knew where it went.  I wish I had a quote to reference, but there's an interesting article here which discusses some of the current thinking in traffic engineering and how more streets beget more traffic.

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Most of the time I would protest removing auto traffic from existing streets because even when there is not much pedestrian traffic, cars parallel parked on narrow streets (the former coolest street in Cleveland, East 4th before it was turned into a pedestrian mall that is not frequented as yet) provide a buffer to the street, as well as add density/clutter to the urban landscape.  Take away the street, parking meters, traffic lights and street signs, and the human scale is ruined in an attempt to create a false environment to attract tourists.

 

But, after all that, removing the streets through Public Square would help create a viable civic space.  What does the city do on 4th of July weekend when the orchestra plays on Public Square, or set the world record for a balloon launch (back in the mid-80's) to pack in 100,000 people?  They close down Ontario and Superior through the Square.

 

I say terra-form (SimCity 2000 term) the Square up 15 or 20 feet above current street level and get a contemporary architect/landscape architect to redesign the new level.  Think of the new vantage points available down the canyons of Euclid, Superior to the east, and hopefully soon to the west as well, with a series of changing topography.

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How are you going to make that climb within the confines of such a small space?  You would essentially be turning it into "Public Mound".

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I remember seeing in some book somewhere, perhaps heart of cleveland book?, that many times they have proposed to make the square as one but allways failed out. Specificaly in one of the renderings it showed it with a tunnel underneath it, and one of the routes through it blocked off. They didnt actualy lower the road underneath but rather built the square up and around the tunnel, without moving the exsiting segments. It was pretty bad looking, picture 80's era concrete blocks stacked on top of eachother in a haphazard pyramid like fashion.

 

^^ I remember the baloon launch in the 80's, I was actually there. On the trip back home to lakewood I saw all the baloons in the lake. Somehow one of the baloons actualy mannaged to get to my house and in my front yard on cook ave.

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"all of the low-rise trees"

 

Let me tell you, I was just walking by the northeastern quadrant today and whatever those species are - they gotta go. They just look like something out of Tim Burton's "Corpse Bride", and worse - they provide plenty of cover for the homeless to camp out once their leaves come back. They need something a little taller that still offers shade, but the trees that are there now aren't cutting it.

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"all of the low-rise trees"

They need something a little taller that still offers shade, but the trees that are there now aren't cutting it.

 

Nice unitended pun. Someone should be cutting them.

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I remember seeing in some book somewhere, perhaps heart of Cleveland book?, that many times they have proposed to make the square as one but allways failed out. Specifically in one of the renderings it showed it with a tunnel underneath it, and one of the routes through it blocked off. They didn't actually lower the road underneath but rather built the square up and around the tunnel, without moving the existing segments. It was pretty bad looking, picture 80's era concrete blocks stacked on top of eachother in a haphazard pyramid like fashion.

 

 

Yeah, I love looking at those dated schemes.  But actually I think the square was briefly unified in the mid-19th century.

 

I'm not sure why some you present increased retail around the square as an alternative to improving the square's environment; I'm pretty sure everyone here would love to see downtown retail rebound (not to mention that opening retail is not really something the city can itself do).  I guess the thought is that no-one would think the square was such an underachieving place if it was full of happy shoppers as you see in old photos...but I'm not sure how long we'd have to wait before the area is a shopping hub again and I would love to help push it along with with an improved physical environment.  And I don't think closing these stretches of street is at all analogous to pedestrianizing a commercial street.    And yeah, it will still be surrounded by roads, but 6 acres (a blind guess) surrounded by roads is pretty different from single acres surrounded by roads.  It's easy to get a sense how much of Public Square's original 9.5 or so acres is covered by roadway by looking at the google satellite photo.

 

Aside from the bus routing- which in my completely unstudied speculation could be addressed somehow- I would think that closing Ontario and Superior through the square would be a relatively inexpensive way to improve downtown for residents and those office workers who manage to step outside of their offices or parking garages and to add a place that could be a destination in of itself.  And of course throw an outdoor bar in there.  And the other good ideas above (I vote to reconstruct one of the old streetcar "pagodas" as the RTA info booth).

 

MayDay, if the trees you're knockin' are plane trees/sycamores (haven't walked through there in a while), I happen to love 'em, but if it gets your Public Square reconfiguration vote, I'll insist on honey locusts.

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Yes, I've been to Campus Martius in Detroit.  I think that novelty is part of the reason people are attracted to it, but isn't that the reason people are attracted to any successful urban square?  I believe some Detroit's may be curious due to the newness, but only because there is a dearth of quality public spaces in that city.  Detroit has done a good job of defining this space at the historic center of town.  With all the parking lots downtown, definition of space was something that has been lacking for a while.  Interesting to note that prior to its completion, people in Detroit predicted traffic disasters around the roadway that encircles Campus Martius.  These have largely failed to come to fruition.  Could this be a lesson applicable to Public Square?

 

In my opinion, the most successful urban squares are those where programming isn't required to attract people there--the places where people flock naturally because of the quality of location and spatial arrangement.  In such a place, something as simple as sitting still, perhaps with a cup of coffee, is enjoyable.  That's my criteria for defining a successful square.  

 

While I agree Campus Martius isn't a DuPont Circle, I disagree that it's "newness" is what's sparking its popularity.  I think you have to look at what this new square has done for it's downtown.  Detroit's downtown is much less a pedestrian/people-oriented place than Cleveland's.  So that it's drawing people out of their beloved cars to outdoor concerts and an ordinarily mundane Au Bon Pain in a place like Detroit is noteworthy.  I think you have to look on it's habit changing aspects, and to that end, it's been significant for Detroit.  Mind you, I do think Public Square's lousy in many ways, it has the natural advantage over a Campus Martius b/c PS is the hub and major transfer point for rail and bus -- so it's automatically a ped-oriented public space.  Not so in Detroit which a) has no rail and is more car-oriented than us and, b) has a major bus terminal elsewhere downtown.

 

Also, while it may seem corny to some, I think it's well done, particularly the French-like gravel walk ways in addition to the public stage.

 

Sadly, we've bowed (as usual) to the mighty auto in our clinging to Public Square's archaic design.  We can't bear the thought of not letting thru traffic on either Superior or Ontario when, really, Superior (long ago) should have been buried in a DuPont Circle-like duck-under ramp and Ontario should be terminated on both sides and forced into a run about: thus creating the solid, grassy parkland we all believe the Square should revert to.  But we simply lack the will to change it for the better.

 

... Once again, the almighty ODOT rules all!!!!

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clvlndr, squares don't "do" anything.  Reread what you and I both wrote.  We're saying the same thing.  Public Square suffers because it is too compartmentalized, with the compartments segregated by wide roads that are a bit intimidating to cross on foot.  Campus Martius succeeds because it is a well-defined public space in a city with a dearth of such spaces--an oasis if you will.

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i, for one, agree with either closing off cross streets or at the very least narrowing them.

 

here's a recent proposed redesign as a result of a competition sponsored by the gund foundation.

thank our good mother earth for the gund foundation.  cleveland's urban gardens, ecovillage, wind power, and now public square; all ideas seeded by gund.  if only we had the gund institute!

 

http://gcbl.org  <<<< scroll down to public square link

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Does anyone think that the newly renovated Fountain Square, in Cincy, would be good enough to make an updated version of this list.  I tend to think so, but then again I am a little biased in my opinion....What do the rest of you think?

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  It is also sad to see that the homeless advocates choose this area to pass out free meals to the homeless.  Isn't there a better spot to do this?  As much good as they think they are doing, they don't realize this is the showcase area of the city(or should be). 

 

 

 

That's a pretty arrogant statement, don't you think?  Where should these people feed the homeless that would work better for you? 

 

How about in DC?

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One thing I'd like to see in Public Square are some fixed tables with some fixed benches somewhere in the Square like the ones that exist in Oxford's uptown park, so I can more easily eat my lunch there. Today I grabbed some lunch from Sushi 86 and was trying to eat it while sitting in Public Square, but because there were no tables- I got soy sauce all over my pants.

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^ParkWorks is looking into doing a master plan that would make some significant changes to Public Square. In the short term, the county is providing funding to re-landscape portions of the Square to improve sightlines, etc.

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That is AWESOME news....I hope it does change for the better...that is Cleveland's(could be) MINI Central park

 

Why do we need to be like "central park".  the square is way to small to be anything like that.

 

I understand you want a better PS and you're not saying "emulate" Central Park, but CLEVELAND'S Public Square is OUR front door.  and it should have its on unique flavor and we should be developing the mall area with programing similar to what goes on at Bryant Park.

 

when the Mall had the Hanna Fountains, it was well used during the day by people who wanted to stroll, sit out and enjoy the fountains and take a break.  and at night the mall was used for a very different reason.  :-o

 

Today's open mall is stunning but should have more off peak programming to entice downtown residents to be out on it.

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The day they decide to close off the roads running through our 'front door' ( I prefer the term, The Heart of the City), I will be there with shovel in hand to start the demo.

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