Cleveland: Public Square Redesign

[StapHanger]

Mods, does it make sense to reopen the locked "transit in public square" thread? http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,30556.0.html

[KJP]

I just feel like transit gets beaten up and treated like the red-headed stepchild way too often. Once upon a time, there was a plan to keep transit on (OK, under) Public Square and remove transit from the square's surface. That's when transit was treated with value and people sought to improve it, not push aside at the expense of the transit agency. This plan is from 1919...

 

Cleveland subway planPS-zoom-1919 by Ken Prendergast, on Flickr

 

Cleveland subway plan-1919m by Ken Prendergast, on Flickr

 

 

[STRIVE2THRIVE]

I just feel like transit gets beaten up and treated like the red-headed stepchild way too often. Once upon a time, there was a plan to keep transit on (OK, under) Public Square and remove transit from the square's surface. That's when transit was treated with value and people sought to improve it, not push aside at the expense of the transit agency.

No one is saying get rid of transit on public square.  I think most of us are in agreement of the busses running around the square not through it.  I don't see how that undermines Public Square or is treating transit like a red-headed stepchild.  Terminal Tower/Tower City is the unmistakable hub for the trains so as long as the bus stops are next to or in Tower City it makes the system that much more efficient. 

[MidwestChamp]

I think too much effort has been spent debating buses through the square.  I think we all can agree the square works best without any vehicles going through it, but we also acknowledge that PS has always been a transit hub.  KJP has mentioned the big holdup to buses being routed around the square is the added cost to RTA, which is already cash strapped, so I think a better use of debate is to think of ways to reduce/eliminate this cost for RTA.  Someone mentioned a parking tax, and I wonder if the corporate community could provide support, as they do for the free trolley downtown.  There's got to be a way to meet both objectives. 

 

For the year that the square was closed people adjusted, cars adjusted, transit riders adjusted, so it can work.  Now we have to figure out the cost, and then I think we have a win win. 

[clvlndr]

I just feel like transit gets beaten up and treated like the red-headed stepchild way too often. Once upon a time, there was a plan to keep transit on (OK, under) Public Square and remove transit from the square's surface. That's when transit was treated with value and people sought to improve it, not push aside at the expense of the transit agency. This plan is from 1919...

 

Cleveland subway planPS-zoom-1919 by Ken Prendergast, on Flickr

 

Cleveland subway plan-1919m by Ken Prendergast, on Flickr

 

It's interesting that Cleveland punted on the subway, open up the Square to people in 1919, the late 50s and mid 90s, with each generation kicking the can down the road to future generations.  While maybe a subway proposal isn't now the issue, per se, seeking the balance between the pedestrian and transit still is with the sudden transformation of PS into a place that actually attracts people.  These challenges never really go away no matter how much we wish they would.

[clvlndr]

 

For the year that the square was closed people adjusted, cars adjusted, transit riders adjusted, so it can work.  Now we have to figure out the cost, and then I think we have a win win.

 

My thinking exactly.

[KJP]

PBS News Hour covers the renovation of its historic, 10-acre Public Square in the city’s downtown in this piece...

https://t.co/OOxQMB4Jgz

[327]

I think too much effort has been spent debating buses through the square.  I think we all can agree the square works best without any vehicles going through it, but we also acknowledge that PS has always been a transit hub.  KJP has mentioned the big holdup to buses being routed around the square is the added cost to RTA, which is already cash strapped, so I think a better use of debate is to think of ways to reduce/eliminate this cost for RTA.  Someone mentioned a parking tax, and I wonder if the corporate community could provide support, as they do for the free trolley downtown.  There's got to be a way to meet both objectives. 

 

For the year that the square was closed people adjusted, cars adjusted, transit riders adjusted, so it can work.  Now we have to figure out the cost, and then I think we have a win win. 

 

Well put.  IMO both sides have made some good points on this. 

 

We've yet to experience how not-awful it might be with the bus traffic anyway.  Maybe it won't be all that bad.  What if it wasn't buses?  Would anyone oppose a Detroit-Superior streetcar line going through the square?

[BCCLE1]

I think too much effort has been spent debating buses through the square.  I think we all can agree the square works best without any vehicles going through it, but we also acknowledge that PS has always been a transit hub.  KJP has mentioned the big holdup to buses being routed around the square is the added cost to RTA, which is already cash strapped, so I think a better use of debate is to think of ways to reduce/eliminate this cost for RTA.  Someone mentioned a parking tax, and I wonder if the corporate community could provide support, as they do for the free trolley downtown.  There's got to be a way to meet both objectives. 

 

For the year that the square was closed people adjusted, cars adjusted, transit riders adjusted, so it can work.  Now we have to figure out the cost, and then I think we have a win win. 

 

Well put.  IMO both sides have made some good points on this. 

 

We've yet to experience how not-awful it might be with the bus traffic anyway.  Maybe it won't be all that bad.  What if it wasn't buses?  Would anyone oppose a Detroit-Superior streetcar line going through the square?

 

For 15+ months the buses have already been circling PS, and how many problems have there been? Not many from what I've read. Yes, there has been congestion (I've experienced it), especially in front of Tower City. But not as much with the rest of the road circling PS. I say let the status quo of the last 15+ months continue, but with a few changes.

 

First, do an experiment, treat the northern half of the square like a traffic circle. Get rid of the traffic signals, lets see how that works, and how it affects cost for RTA.

 

Second, there is the issue of how this (traffic circle experiment) would affect pedestrian crossings, so limit the speed limit around the road to 10mph (not sure what it currently is), and be sure to do whatever it takes to inform all traffic of these same pedestrians.

 

In answer too "Would anyone oppose a Detroit-Superior streetcar line going through the square?" I would not oppose this. Why? Because with a street car line, there are tracks imbedded in the road so people should know to look both ways before crossing from the northern part of PS to the southern part, or vice versa. Currently, most people do not even realize there is a road dividing the northern and southern sections of PS. The design of the square has been so well designed that it really is hard to see and tell there is a road through it. I know as I have been to the square many times already since the reopening of it, and have noticed people treating the park as if there is not a road splitting it in half. This includes me, friends and out of towners I've been there with, and many, many other people I've observed.

 

Having designed the road through the square in such a way that people cannot tell a road is there is actually a design flaw imo. Don't get me wrong, I love the new PS, but if pedestrians cannot tell the road is there, this is a pedestrian accident waiting to happen once buses start traveling through it (if they ever do).

 

[8Titles]

I think too much effort has been spent debating buses through the square.  I think we all can agree the square works best without any vehicles going through it, but we also acknowledge that PS has always been a transit hub.  KJP has mentioned the big holdup to buses being routed around the square is the added cost to RTA, which is already cash strapped, so I think a better use of debate is to think of ways to reduce/eliminate this cost for RTA.  Someone mentioned a parking tax, and I wonder if the corporate community could provide support, as they do for the free trolley downtown.  There's got to be a way to meet both objectives. 

 

For the year that the square was closed people adjusted, cars adjusted, transit riders adjusted, so it can work.  Now we have to figure out the cost, and then I think we have a win win. 

 

Well put.  IMO both sides have made some good points on this. 

 

We've yet to experience how not-awful it might be with the bus traffic anyway.  Maybe it won't be all that bad.  What if it wasn't buses?  Would anyone oppose a Detroit-Superior streetcar line going through the square?

 

For 15+ months the buses have already been circling PS, and how many problems have there been? Not many from what I've read. Yes, there has been congestion (I've experienced it), especially in front of Tower City. But not as much with the rest of the road circling PS. I say let the status quo of the last 15+ months continue, but with a few changes.

 

First, do an experiment, treat the northern half of the square like a traffic circle. Get rid of the traffic signals, lets see how that works, and how it affects cost for RTA.

 

Second, there is the issue of how this (traffic circle experiment) would affect pedestrian crossings, so limit the speed limit around the road to 10mph (not sure what it currently is), and be sure to do whatever it takes to inform all traffic of these same pedestrians.

 

In answer too "Would anyone oppose a Detroit-Superior streetcar line going through the square?" I would not oppose this. Why? Because with a street car line, there are tracks imbedded in the road so people should know to look both ways before crossing from the northern part of PS to the southern part, or vice versa. Currently, most people do not even realize there is a road dividing the northern and southern sections of PS. The design of the square has been so well designed that it really is hard to see and tell there is a road through it. I know as I have been to the square many times already since the reopening of it, and have noticed people treating the park as if there is not a road splitting it in half. This includes me, friends and out of towners I've been there with, and many, many other people I've observed.

 

Having designed the road through the square in such a way that people cannot tell a road is there is actually a design flaw imo. Don't get me wrong, I love the new PS, but if pedestrians cannot tell the road is there, this is a pedestrian accident waiting to happen once buses start traveling through it (if they ever do).

That is my fear, someone (most likely a child) either gets run over due to not paying attention and/or people (parents with kids) who would otherwise come DT/PS staying away due to fear of being run over.

[justsomethoughts]

There is simply no argument against keeping Public Square unified to make the Square more enjoyable, more beautiful and most importantly more safe than turning it into two Public Rectangles. To argue the contrary is simply being argumentative and close-minded.  There have been minimal to no true complaints by RTA riders about the rerouting and no loud voice about RTA commuters being late to work because of the re-routing.  The dollar impact to RTA is a concern but the math is rather fuzzy.  At the absolute very least, the Square should be unified all weekend Saturday-Sunday and from 11:00am to 2:00pm Mon-Fri so that the lunch time folks can enjoy a peaceful Square and not inhale carcinogenic exhaust fumes while inhaling their lunch.  In reality; however, the pedestrian risks during rush hour will become confusing with the Square becoming two Rectangles. There is a reason the Square was opened as a unified Square - because it is obviously better that way!  That's common sense.  Ask any recent visitor if they think the Square would be better with a bus lane carving through the middle of it and they'd look at you like you were nuts!

 

I favor protecting and encouraging walking over the very minor RTA inconvenience.  Why is there no massive bus lane running through Millennium Park, Washington Square, Union Square etc...?  Because it makes no sense!

[KJP]

I favor protecting and encouraging walking over the very minor RTA inconvenience.  Why is there no massive bus lane running through Millennium Park, Washington Square, Union Square etc...?  Because it makes no sense!

 

Because none ever existed, and because no change was forced upon its cash-strapped transit agency that it can ill-afford to make. Said it a million times: go ahead, reroute the buses. But compensate RTA.

 

I am a transit rider. In my job I represent other transit riders. And I'm complaining about the inconvenience to me and the cost to the agency that transports me and my fellow Clevelanders.

[Mendo]

There have been minimal to no true complaints by RTA riders about the rerouting and no loud voice about RTA commuters being late to work because of the re-routing.

What platform do RTA riders have to make their concerns public? People like KJP advocate for transit because nobody else seems to. You say there is no argument against keeping the square unified. But you have yet to see how how it operates as two sections. Talk about closed minded. The already closed Ontario permanently and restricted cars through Superior.

[Bookman]

There have been minimal to no true complaints by RTA riders about the rerouting and no loud voice about RTA commuters being late to work because of the re-routing.

What platform do RTA riders have to make their concerns public? People like KJP advocate for transit because nobody else seems to. You say there is no argument against keeping the square unified. But you have yet to see how how it operates as two sections. Talk about closed minded. The already closed Ontario permanently and restricted cars through Superior.

Once the work began on Public Square, I needed to take an earlier bus in order to make sure I was at work on time.  While that was easy for me to do, there may be others that for various reasons could not make the ten to fifteen minute adjustment to their lives.  I think it is reasonable to expect that others were not happy about making the adjustments.

 

I think we have to let a few months go by with the road open to really pass judgement.  Perhaps the number of buses going through the square is not as high as everyone anticipates.  Remember, Ontario is closed, so buses like the 55 will not be going through the square as they once did.  There are probably other routes that are impacted similarly.

[justsomethoughts]

^  I truly applaud the transit advocacy, certainly riders and RTA need a voice.  But now I see we are complaining about closing off Ontario, too!  Sorry, but I'm not too sympathetic to that.  Walking an extra block is not that rough.  Everyone can use a little exercise.  RTA is not a door to door service.  Never has been.  Never should be.  It is not limo service.  It is not Uber.  Inherent in public transportation is that a rider will actually have to walk a little even 1-2 blocks.  And for some riders the move of the bus stations, may actually shorten their walk, not increase it.  What if a rider's destination is actually closer to the new stops?  Because for many riders the new stops are actually closer to their destinations.  Are the advocates upset at this fact too?  Because this is a reality and fact as well.  As far as compensating RTA...I did not know that the RTA owned the roadways and thus if they are changed for the overall benefit of the city and it's visitors, RTA should be compensated.  That being said, RTA and PS should consider a "Friends of the Park" membership to raise money.  Of course, members who donate should get some minor benefit in return!

[Mendo]

^ Transit is about moving as many people as possible as efficiently as possible. It's not a gym service. People need the exercise? Are you serious with this crap? Moving the stops has a real cost for RTA and a harder to quantify cost (time) for people having to get connections.

[Bookman]

^  I truly applaud the transit advocacy, certainly riders and RTA need a voice.  But now I see we are complaining about closing off Ontario, too!  Sorry, but I'm not too sympathetic to that.  Walking an extra block is not that rough.  Everyone can use a little exercise.  RTA is not a door to door service.  Never has been.  Never should be.  It is not limo service.  It is not Uber.  Inherent in public transportation is that a rider will actually have to walk a little even 1-2 blocks.  And for some riders the move of the bus stations, may actually shorten their walk, not increase it.  What if a rider's destination is actually closer to the new stops?  Because for many riders the new stops are actually closer to their destinations.  Are the advocates upset at this fact too?  Because this is a reality and fact as well.  As far as compensating RTA...I did not know that the RTA owned the roadways and thus if they are changed for the overall benefit of the city and it's visitors, RTA should be compensated.  That being said, RTA and PS should consider a "Friends of the Park" membership to raise money.  Of course, members who donate should get some minor benefit in return!

I don't think I said that I was complaining about Ontario being closed.  Given that Ontario only goes another two blocks North, St. Clair then Lakeside, I would imagine that the impact is minimal.  How many routes are there that end North of Public Square? Also, I didn't say I was concerned about walking an extra block.  In fact I will gladly walk several extra blocks in order to avoid a two-seat trip.  My observation is simply about timing.  The bus that I was taking before PS construction started allowed me to arrive with a sufficient cushion to my start time at work.  Once construction started and the bus was no longer able to go through the square, I needed to take an earlier bus which depending on my start time caused a shift of as little as ten minutes and as much as thirty.  If it was just me those adjustments are not a big deal.  The reality is that I have a family with school age kids and the timing of getting the kids to school is a factor that I have to consider. 

I'm sure RTA isn't thrilled about the West Shoreway going to 35 MPH either.  Granted the time difference is minimal, but I'm betting the MPG of the buses means higher fuel costs over time.

[327]

Some have been trying to brush off the scope of the delays here, but if you're dependent on buses for a crosstown commute it gets magnified quite a bit.  For some it's a matter of barely keeping their family above water.  People get harmed every time we slow down or close a road, and many of them are in no position to take that hit.  While it's still possible for the moral calculus to say "close the road" it's not fair to those people to minimize their side of the scale.

[seicer]

But for the duration that the park has been closed to buses, has any of that occurred? Have there been any quantifiable delays? Or any reports of people losing their jobs or not making bank because of this? And even in the latter example, those issues would be impossible to report on because there is no data that can be used to support that argument.

 

Were these same concerns voiced when the Shoreway went from 50 MPH to 35 MPH? (Which, of course, no one drives at that speed.)

[StapHanger]

^There's been quite an uproar over the lowered Shoreway speed limit, including from 327 here on UO (and let's not rehash it here in this thread please).

[327]

People who complained about the shoreway were shouted down as Agents of Westlake, as if there were no working-class Lakewood commuters who couldn't move downtown (or to Westlake) if they wanted to.  To top it off, any high-density development nearby gets shouted down by new residents who want a cul-de-sac with a view and no traffic noise.  There's your real Agents of Westlake right there.  It's the same story-- residential peace and quiet prioritized over urban needs, particularly needs of the transit-dependent who can't solve their logistical problems by moving.

 

Anecdotally, I've run into a lot of people who got screwed on bus transfers in recent months.  Minutes can count for hours when you play that game.  I deal with a lot of bus-dependent people at work.  Less anecdotally, I thought RTA had already studied this and determined they need Superior open. 

[KJP]

A transit rider who lives on Clifton in Cleveland complained to me that his #55 bus today took just shy of 7 minutes to get from W 3rd to E 3rd today.

[seicer]

It often took five minutes alone just to get off of the Shoreway and to Public Square where I would get off. The buses had trouble navigating the tight turns, often because cars had pulled past the stop bar, or because of heavy pedestrian traffic. It was often too slow to deal with, so I saw a lot of folks that I worked with get off a block west of the Square and just hop across the parking lots to the Fed. The bus was usually 3/4 empty by the time it made it to the Square.

[dhm]

Yeah, buses should definitely go through public square. People are not congregating in the road in public square, people. And rerouting ALL the buses around the circle is a lot. It significantly increases the commute time if you catch the bus east of the square to take one west. Allowing some buses to run through the square alleviates a lot of the log jam that is currently trying to drive around public square.

 

Just my two cents.

 

And as for people being late -- it is impacting people. My friend R works at CMSD on E. 79th and county archives on franklin. She lives on Lake in Lakewood working two jobs. Some days she goes between these jobs and it's a big pain to take the 3 and then catch the 26 back and forth. It's added like a half hour onto her commute. When you don't have a car that adds up to A LOT.

 

A bus every few minutes during non-peak times running through the square does not give us two rectangles. It's still a uniform park -- car traffic won't be coming and it will be easy to navigate across the road still. Folks are not congregating in the road as it is now, they congregate in areas on the side: the benches around the pool or the benches on the hillsides.

 

 

[user]

Today around 4:30pm I rode an eastbound 55 around Public Square. It took over nine and a half minutes from when the light turned green at W 3rd and Superior to make it to E 3rd and Superior (200 Public Square.)

 

That said, I chatted with RTA staff following today's board meeting and was told that the city has yet to adjust the signal timing. Apparently a big part of the problem is that the pedestrian signal in front of Tower City only changes after being requested by pedestrians who want to cross, so it is difficult to coordinate with the other signals. One other thing that was mentioned was the that there isn't enough space behind the pedestrian signal.

 

From what I have seen in front of Tower City there is room for a couple buses, but there are often more than one or two buses at a time (not to mention cars using the bus lane to skip backed-up traffic in the regular lane.) My bus actually didn't hit the pedestrian signal or the Ontario St. signal, most of the wasted time was waiting to turn on to Superior from W 3rd and waiting for W Roadway to clear (likely due to other traffic that did hit the ped signal, Ontario St., and maybe Euclid.)

 

Although things can only improve with adjusted timing, I was told that if Superior was open today "we wouldn't be having this conversation."

[Bookman]

More discussion about buses...

http://www.cleveland.com/naymik/index.ssf/2016/07/cleveland_mayor_frank_jackson_3.html#incart_m-rpt-1

Officials consider banning buses from renovated Public Square: Mark Naymik

 

CLEVELAND, Ohio – One month after the completion of the $50 million renovation of Public Square, Cleveland Mayor Frank Jackson and others are already thinking about making changes. 

 

They are investigating whether to permanently ban buses from passing through the square, something Jackson has long wanted. Informal discussions on the point began last week, when people and police mingled in the middle of the square during the Republican National Convention.

[Enginerd]

Just my two cents; while it's wonderful seeing the amount of people at PS tonight, I think Mall B is just a much better location for the Star-Spangled Spectacular.

 

It really is a beautiful night out tonight though!

[mrclifton88]

I have to say I was pleasantly surprised with Public Square holding the event, it is more spacious that I thought it would be. BUT. I agree with you still, the mall in my opinion was absolutely perfect for this event.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[dave68]

If Public Square goes the route of no bus access, what/how would one like to see Public Square adjust?

[seicer]

Would having Public Square closed to buses on the weekends be an option?

[StapHanger]

I think that was more or less the plan, with the roadway used for farmers markets and events on weekends.

[StapHanger]

I think that was more or less the plan, with the roadway used for farmers markets and events on weekends.

[Cleburger]

Would having Public Square closed to buses on the weekends be an option?

 

If we stay down the path we are on, there won't be any weekend buses in a couple years....

[TPH2]

I have to say I was pleasantly surprised with Public Square holding the event, it is more spacious that I thought it would be. BUT. I agree with you still, the mall in my opinion was absolutely perfect for this event.

 

 

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Agree 100%.

 

Also, I was talking to one of the guys at the soldiers and sailors monument and he said that they've been talking with the county about putting some exterior up lighting on the shaft and that it hopefully would get done soon. And it looks like the bulbs have all been replaced in the lamp posts at the monument.

[surfohio]

Would having Public Square closed to buses on the weekends be an option?

 

If we stay down the path we are on, there won't be any weekend buses in a couple years....

 

Very cryptic!

 

I'm cautiously optimistic that the buses won't have that much of an effect. The few times I've been there I tried to gauge what it would be like, and to be honest I didn't even see that much bus traffic. At least not enough to cause concern.

 

If the city does decide to close off Superior I do hope that they add brick pavers to "square-in" the square.

 

It's not that I mind the "butterfly" aesthetic; but rather I hate seeing the concrete ghost of Superior Ave infringing upon PS.

[McLovin]

New Cleveland Sign On The Square

 

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[McLovin]

Today was the day the buses were supposed to begin running and....

 

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[PoshSteve]

Buses' return to Public Square indefinitely delayed

 

http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2016/08/buses_return_to_public_square.html#incart_m-rpt-1

 

I think we should have at least seen how they affected the connectivity of the square. While I like the idea of a unified square, I don't think they'll actually be as bad as some people think

[Mendo]

I wonder if that was the plan all along. A little lipservice to RTA to get their support and when it comes down to it, squeeze them out. There is clearly a lack of support for RTA so you won't see a public outcry now that the square is open.

[gotribe]

They better figure out what to do with the design if they're going to keep buses out.  A non-functional road cutting through the square looks pretty strange to me.  Also, walls on either end aren't working for me.

[TPH2]

I'd be curious to see, and too lazy at the current moment to go in and figure it out, how many buses would be running through the square per hour throughout the day. Anyone know that off the top of their head?

[Whipjacka]

"the City of Cleveland & RTA are in discussions regarding when and if the buses will be allowed to use the designed, exclusive transit lanes"

[tradition7]

All of that money spent on the park and design only for a major portion of the design to be worthless. Other than when they potentially set up street vendors, etc the "road" would turn out to be a real waste of valuable space. If only somebody would have been talking about completely closing off traffic before construction began...

[Cleburger]

They better figure out what to do with the design if they're going to keep buses out.  A non-functional road cutting through the square looks pretty strange to me.  Also, walls on either end aren't working for me.

 

Maybe this is a solution we are all not seeing.  Let the buses run through during peak periods.  During quieter hours and weekends, they go around.  We could install those hyrdraulic posts that come up out of the ground to block the road, and make that section "prettier" some how?

[gotribe]

^Sure, that could be done.  But the entire final design of the square took into account we needed to maintain a road coming through it.  The possibilities if we didn't need to do this are endless.  We go from that to possibly having hydraulic bollards coming out of the ground...

[mrclifton88]

^ Exactly. I'm torn on the bus issue because on one hand the new square seems to be immensely popular without them. The problem is nobody knows for sure yet how much or how little busses will impact the current environment. But more importantly, whether you are pro bus or not certainly this is something that should've been set in stone from the beginning. I am really shocked that they are pulling this now. As was said if Superior would've been out from the beginning we could've had a completely different looking product. The entire square was DESIGNED around Superior being open!!!

 

 

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[KJP]

I'd be curious to see, and too lazy at the current moment to go in and figure it out, how many buses would be running through the square per hour throughout the day. Anyone know that off the top of their head?

 

Joe Calabrese says there are 4,000 buses per day operating through Public Square. But I don't know if that's all on Superior or operating around the perimeter of the square.

SOURCE: http://www.ideastream.org/news/public-square-renovation-where-will-buses-go

[clvlndr]

^ Exactly. I'm torn on the bus issue because on one hand the new square seems to be immensely popular without them. The problem is nobody knows for sure yet how much or how little busses will impact the current environment. But more importantly, whether you are pro bus or not certainly this is something that should've been set in stone from the beginning. I am really shocked that they are pulling this now. As was said if Superior would've been out from the beginning we could've had a completely different looking product. The entire square was DESIGNED around Superior being open!!!

 

 

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I definitely agree with this. The contractor did his job in building an absolutely beautiful, balanced, people-friendly park. But the pols and planners dropped the ball. They should have weighed the conflict beforehand and come up with a workable solution, not wait until work was done and figure it out.  Instead $50M was spent to throw stuff against the wall and what sticks. I'm still of the belief that buses through the middle undermines the goal of planners and the architect, but RTA should be compensated for whatever loss they can prove is caused by removing these buses to the perimeter.

[gotribe]

I know I already posted my thoughts, but this is really irking me this morning!  30 years from now when people don't know the story behind this, they're going to wonder why the heck there's a 4 lane road bisecting the square.  It's not even a small alley street.  It's a damn highway!  I didn't like the thought of it initially, but I felt they did the best they could considering.  I hate to be so negative, but it's truly a Cleveland thing, lol.  It's just like knocking down the Ameritrust building on public square only for them to be parking lots for the next 30 years.  Most people don't know the story behind that either. 

[clvlndr]

I know this isn't an RTA thread (although RTA is inextricably tied to this discussion) but again why not route some of those through-the-Square buses along Prospect behind Tower City where they could layover.  The upside besides removing them from PS' middle is Prospect allows for an even better, more direct connection to the Rapid as Prospect sits directly over RTA 's subway station and their are entrances and escalators down to the station on both sides of the street.  It also seems this would solve RTA's fuel problem because this route is direct and geneally lightly trafficked.

 

The downside? I know some passengers and transit advocates will object to stigma unloading/boarding bus passengers at TC's back door instead of the front door; as if passengers should be kept invisible from PS... and I get that, too.