Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Guest ColDayMan

Abortion

Recommended Posts

^ For arguments sake I don’t find that to be particularly persuasive. First, when a zygote becomes “human life” isn’t just a religious or philosophical question but also a scientific and legal one. This isn’t an issue that resides in an esoteric vacuum; It’s real. Second the statement is essentially an argument for zero protection of the unborn. That’s an extreme belief that very few people - and virtually zero elected officials actually support. 

Edited by surfohio

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, surfohio said:

^ For arguments sake I don’t find that to be particularly persuasive. First, when a zygote becomes “human life” isn’t just a religious or philosophical question but also a scientific and legal one. This isn’t an issue that resides in an esoteric vacuum; It’s real. Second the statement is essentially an argument for zero protection of the unborn. That’s an extreme belief that very few people - and virtually zero elected officials actually support. 

 

If it was such an easy question for science, it would've been answered already.  This is far more of a philosophical debate than scientific.  Science can only show that the makeup of the zygote is genetically human, but that's no different than the sperm or egg.  What really quantifies what makes something human is not so easy to measure.  If it's a heartbeat, as so many of these recent laws contend, does that mean my cat is human because it has one?  Of course not.  How about a brain?  Again, no because even if we disregard all other life with one, the brain is simply another organ.  Perhaps more complex than the liver or lungs, but still an organ.  Unless you ascribe religious meaning to it, all that we are is just synapses and electrical current.    They're all just more arbitrary lines in the sand. 

That is not to say that human life has no definition, or that without religious importance, it is somehow expendable, but we're far away from having a truly coherent, universal view of who and what we are in the grand scheme of things.

And of course the "when are we human" debate doesn't even address the vast contradictions that exist in the pro-birth movement when it comes to protecting life.  Those are just glossed over by most of those folks and never directly addressed. 

Edited by jonoh81

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Let's hurry up and get that baby out so that it can suffer from our insanely high infant mortality rate. Because we really care about babies or else we wouldn't let the rate get that high.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, jonoh81 said:

 

If it was such an easy question for science, it would've been answered already.

 

Who said it was easy? I really didn’t intend to insinuate that. 

 

Okay. So even given whatever you say about a zygote as being true, and I’ll readily admit that’s where the pro choice position is strongest,  it’s narrowly focused so that doesn’t really support ascribing the same philosophical or scientific analysis a few weeks or months later. The pro choice argument naturally grows weaker on a time frame and that’s naturally reflected  in any poll on the subject. 

 

When does a fetus feel pain? is a relevant scientific question, I think. Whether that threshold should or should not afford some legal rights? is the legal and philosophical one. This is the tough middle ground for reasonable people. 

 

Edited by surfohio

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 minutes ago, surfohio said:

 

Who said it was easy? I really didn’t intend to insinuate that. 

 

Okay. So even given whatever you say about a zygote as being true, and I’ll readily admit that’s where the pro choice position is strongest,  it’s narrowly focused so that doesn’t really support ascribing the same philosophical or scientific analysis a few weeks or months later. The pro choice argument naturally grows weaker on a time frame and that’s naturally reflected  in any poll on the subject. 

 

When does a fetus feel pain? is a relevant scientific question, I think. Whether that threshold should or should not afford some legal rights? is the legal and philosophical one. This is the tough middle ground for reasonable people. 

 

 

But even you seem to be getting bogged down here. Should the question be about when a human being comes into existence, or simply when a zygote feels pain?  Or none of the above? Some people clearly believe that a fertilized egg is a new life, and from a religious perspective, a new life with a soul.  Someone like myself who has no religious inclinations would find that a ridiculous position, but then again, I'm not advocating for my specific viewpoints to be legislated for others.  Ultimately, we all just go in circles on this issue, with no one really convincing anyone of anything.  I guess that's where the pro-birth people have it right- they're not even trying to debate the issue.  They're finding a way to go around the debate entirely and go straight to legislating with no real discussion at all, because screw everyone else.  They're right and we're all wrong, and they'll make damn sure the law reflects that.

Edited by jonoh81

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think it’s okay to feel bogged down when there’s a complex issue.

 

To me it’s not that much different than the question of what someone should or shouldn’t be allowed to do on their own property. 

 

Knee jerk reaction from someone (not bogged down by intellect or nuance lol) would say “I can do whatever I want on my property, because Freedom!” 

 

Well even the most ardent libertarian would agree at some point our liberties should be curtailed, even on our own sacred property, the moment ones actions start adversely affecting the rights of someone else. 

 

Many many people, arguably a majority in America, believe a fetus at some point before birth is a someone else. 

 

You guys can point out hypocrisy of those on the pro life side all day.  And you can make good arguments that laws here or in Kentuckabama go too far. But neither of those points resolve the issue. 

Edited by surfohio

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, eastvillagedon said:

I suppose this makes about as much sense as everything else "progressives" do

 

 

 

Okay, there is at least one obvious point here.... Pro-birth people want the US to be like the most conservative places in the Middle East.  So what's the difference between extreme Islam and extreme Christianity except for the wrapper?

 

Also, I don't really expect Disney to leave Georgia, or most companies for that matter.  Most of them are hypocrites and many corporate leaders happily donate to Republican causes so that they can get their corporate welfare in the form of tax breaks and kickbacks.  Companies may tow some more progressive lines, but most of them really only give a crap about their profits.  They'll only leave places if not doing so costs more money. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 4/15/2019 at 4:12 PM, Gramarye said:

Pro-choicers dispute the analogy but we on the pro-life side see it in the same terms as the abolitionist movement, just as we believe that Roe v. Wade and Planned Parenthood v. Casey will in another generation be consigned to the same infamous dustbin of legal history where Dred Scott and Plessy reside today. 

 

You can believe that, but public opinion is against you. 

 

I would agree that the "bright lines" the court drew in Roe are arbitrary, but the fundamental right to control one's own body seems to be a fundamental requirement for true "freedom" and the longer it remains the law the harder it will be to strike down.  But if Roe is completely struck down, I predict a strong backlash and a move to amend the Constitution.  An amendment that would likely go further than Roe in recognizing the individual's right to exercise dominion over their own body.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Foraker said:

 

You can believe that, but public opinion is against you. 

 

Public opinion is also very strongly against 3rd trimester abortions though. Until we get smarter about birth control regulations on abortion will continue to be a shifty compromise. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 hours ago, Foraker said:

 

You can believe that, but public opinion is against you. 

 

I would agree that the "bright lines" the court drew in Roe are arbitrary, but the fundamental right to control one's own body seems to be a fundamental requirement for true "freedom" and the longer it remains the law the harder it will be to strike down.  But if Roe is completely struck down, I predict a strong backlash and a move to amend the Constitution.  An amendment that would likely go further than Roe in recognizing the individual's right to exercise dominion over their own body.

 

Public opinion was against the abolitionists for a very long time, too.  Even in the North, there were plenty who were not abolitionists, whether because they genuinely disagreed with the goal or were simply afraid of a civil war (which, in fairness, was a rather understandable fear given the circumstances).


EDIT: Note also that if Roe is struck down, it would not outlaw abortion automatically.  Striking down Roe does not mean inventing a constitutional right to life as the mirror image of the constitutional right to "privacy" on which Roe rests (or later more nebulous formulations of autonomy).  Laws like the heartbeat bills passed in many states recently might well prove onerous and lead to prosecutions that provoke public backlashes.  That is part and parcel of the political process.  And the reverse would also be true--blue states would be able to allow abortion through birth, while we try to get through to people with movies like Unplanned and other cultural efforts to try to awaken people to the horror and barbarism of the practice.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Gramarye said:

 

Public opinion was against the abolitionists for a very long time, too.  Even in the North, there were plenty who were not abolitionists, whether because they genuinely disagreed with the goal or were simply afraid of a civil war (which, in fairness, was a rather understandable fear given the circumstances).


EDIT: Note also that if Roe is struck down, it would not outlaw abortion automatically.  Striking down Roe does not mean inventing a constitutional right to life as the mirror image of the constitutional right to "privacy" on which Roe rests (or later more nebulous formulations of autonomy).  Laws like the heartbeat bills passed in many states recently might well prove onerous and lead to prosecutions that provoke public backlashes.  That is part and parcel of the political process.  And the reverse would also be true--blue states would be able to allow abortion through birth, while we try to get through to people with movies like Unplanned and other cultural efforts to try to awaken people to the horror and barbarism of the practice.

 

So shouldn't the argument be that we shouldn't judge any issue based solely on how popular it is or isn't with a public that probably is at least somewhat ignorant on most issues?

Honestly, you don't even seem to care what anyone else thinks.  Would it really matter to you and other pro-birth people if 99.9% of the US public was for legalized abortion?  Of course not, because in this debate, there is really only one position you give any credence to- your own. 

Why would anyone be interested in watching highly biased videos and other efforts?  How are these efforts any different than the lie about how PP was selling baby parts?  As with most things with conservatives, any ends justify the means, and in the end, we all end up with less choice, less freedom, less morality. 

 

Edited by jonoh81

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 6/5/2019 at 10:33 PM, surfohio said:

Public opinion is also very strongly against 3rd trimester abortions though. Until we get smarter about birth control regulations on abortion will continue to be a shifty compromise. 

 

Agreed.  Mea culpa -- public opinion by itself is not a good basis for many policy positions.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Foraker said:

 

Agreed.  Mea culpa -- public opinion by itself is not a good basis for many policy positions.

No argument here. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ohio’s Six Week Abortion Ban Blocked by Federal Judge

 

Ohio’s six week abortion ban has been blocked by a federal judge. Planned to go into effect on July 11, the state’s most restrictive abortion measure has now been delayed.

 

Senior US District Judge Michael Barrett issued an injunction on Wednesday, temporarily preventing the ban from becoming law. 

 

“Inasmuch as this Court has determined that SB 23 places an ‘undue burden’ on a woman’s right to choose pre-viability abortion, and thus violates her right to privacy guaranteed by the Fourteenth Amendment, we further determine that its enforcement would…inflict irreparable harm,” Barrett writes in the court opinion in favor of plaintiffs American Civil Liberties Union of Ohio (ACLU) and Preterm Cleveland.

 

More below:

https://www.columbusunderground.com/ohios-six-week-abortion-ban-blocked-by-federal-judge-ls1


"You don't just walk into a bar and mix it up by calling a girl fat" - buildingcincinnati speaking about new forumers

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 


"Life is 10% what happens to you and 90% how you respond." -- Coach Lou Holtz

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The Federalist posted a piece today that abortions are not necessary for ectopic pregnancies.  The only purpose for such a piece is to make women feel bad or have them die. I won't link the piece because that trash source doesn't deserve the clicks. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
41 minutes ago, freefourur said:

The Federalist posted a piece today that abortions are not necessary for ectopic pregnancies.  The only purpose for such a piece is to make women feel bad or have them die. I won't link the piece because that trash source doesn't deserve the clicks. 

 

The Federalist is a complete joke. The fact that grown adults have such childish views of America's founding and unironically named their screeds after the party of Washington is beyond ridiculous.

Edited by mu2010

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

https://www.cnn.com/2019/10/04/politics/abortion-supreme-court-louisiana/index.html

 

Quote

The Supreme Court agreed on Friday to take up an abortion case this term, adding an explosive issue to an already robust docket of controversial issues in the middle of the 2020 presidential election.

 

Welp, the first cut into Roe v. Wade appears to be coming soon.


Very Stable Genius

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Federal judge blocks Alabama's near-total abortion ban

 

A federal judge has blocked a controversial Alabama abortion bill that would block almost all abortions, calling it a "ban" that "contravenes clear Supreme Court precedent." [...]

 

In the 17-page opinion, Thompson wrote that the state's abortion ban "violates the right of an individual to privacy, to make choices central to personal dignity and autonomy." Thompson also stated that the ban "diminishes the capacity of women to act in society, and to make reproductive decisions."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
53 minutes ago, DarkandStormy said:

 

This. is. disgraceful.

 

People need to get out of the business of policing women's wombs.

 

I won't even mention my own liberal views on abortion in deference to the general sensibilities of the board. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...