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Cleveland: Jack Cleveland Casino - Phase I

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I'm surprised I wasn't able to find a thread on this...  Does anyone know where Dan Gilbert's proposed casino will be built?  The ads say construction would start "immediately" if Issue 3 passes and Gilbert said in the PD today that he'd start lining up construction plans the day after election day. 

 

The PD also mentioned "a pedestrian bridge straddling the Cuyahoga River just outside [Gilbert's] Quicken Loans Arena office window."  But that would take it to Scranton Peninsula, which I believe Jacobs owns, and Jacobs and Gilbert aren't on friendly terms.

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I wonder if Dan Gilbert really cares about Cleveland, or his own wallet.

 

He should spend a night walking around downtown Detroit in his hometown if he wants to see what casinos do for the local economy.  They've had two "world class" casinos there for some time--and Detroit is still suffering.

 

The time to build a casino would have been in the 90's in the Flats.  Sin city.  NOLA North.  Keep the party going if you're going to do it.

 

Now?  It will only give some people $10/hour jobs and be filled with unemployed UAW and Steelworkers gambling away their retirement funding.  And to make matters worse they go from the parking lot to the casino and right back to their car without ever exploring a neighborhood in Cleveland. 

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So, Gilberts proposal is for a casino on the Scranton Peninsula with a pedestrian bridge to TC.  What does everyone think of the site?  Would a casino on Scranton Peninsula stifle future development in that area (I know… what development)?  As casinos are usually self-contained with their own restaurants, bars, shops, etc… I can't see this leading to anything development beyond parking lots and garages.  On the other hand it sure would be nice to keep all that gambling revenue in the state.  Any additional tourism to the city of Cleveland can't be a bad thing either.

 

Not a silver bullet by any means, but I will vote yes on the Issue as I think the pros outweigh the cons.

 

I did a quick google search this morning and couldn't find any renderings.  Anyone know of any renderings that may be floating around out there?

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I really don't like that they want to include a concert hall, restaurants, and hotel in the complex.  That means that we will have a casino providing the same entertainment options as a number of other Downtown businesses as a loss leader

 

Full disclosure, I work at a restaurant/concert hall.

 

Don't even get me started on the ridiculous way we always try to pass gambling as a state enforced monopoly instead of legalizing it and then auctioning off the licenses and letting cities' planning and zoning depts have some control over where these things go.

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I'm working on a project in my UST 610 class regarding the possibilities of the Scranton Peninsula.  I haven't considered a casino there, but who knows?  I don't see Forest City turning away the prospect of a new casino on their land, even if they don't own the casino outright.  They could charge plenty for the lease of that land.

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I really don't like that they want to include a concert hall, restaurants, and hotel in the complex. That means that we will have a casino providing the same entertainment options as a number of other Downtown businesses as a loss leader.

 

Full disclosure, I work at a restaurant/concert hall.

 

Don't even get me started on the ridiculous way we always try to pass gambling as a state enforced monopoly instead of legalizing it and then auctioning off the licenses and letting cities' planning and zoning depts have some control over where these things go.

 

I completely agree that having the state hand exclusive incenses to a certain few is pretty screwed up, however... I must say that I trust Gilbert, I think he truly cares about the state of downtown. 

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I really don't like that they want to include a concert hall, restaurants, and hotel in the complex. That means that we will have a casino providing the same entertainment options as a number of other Downtown businesses as a loss leader.

 

Full disclosure, I work at a restaurant/concert hall.

 

Don't even get me started on the ridiculous way we always try to pass gambling as a state enforced monopoly instead of legalizing it and then auctioning off the licenses and letting cities' planning and zoning depts have some control over where these things go.

 

Excellent thoughts.  Too bad the big money lobbyists basically write the bill in the State Congress before it goes to the voters...  You ever thought of running for office?

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I'd like for the TC convention center site to be where the casino goes, only because it would pressure them to put windows on the place.  I'm not looking forward to what could likely be a box out on a virtual island away from everything. 

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^I'm inclined to agree - there's also a lot of existing parking there, and hopefully any additional parking would be concealed below grade. There's a big flap in Pittsburgh because their newest casino (The Majestic) has an enormous garage attached to it, and it sits at a prominent spot on their riverfront. In no way, shape or form should they be allowed to build a concert venue along with it - there's the TC Amphitheater right there, Nautica not far away, and House of Blues a few blocks over.

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In no way, shape or form should they be allowed to build a concert venue along with it - there's the TC Amphitheater right there, Nautica not far away, and House of Blues a few blocks over.

 

I agree, maybe they could form a partnership with one of the existing venues?

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I have a much stronger feeling that Issue 3 is going to pass this time around.  It was very close to passing last time, and with players like Dan Gilbert continuing to push...who is trusted in most peoples eyes...I see a shift in opinion coming up (I voted NO on the issue last time FYI).

 

This new proposal has caused my ears to perk up, and I'm guessing it has for other people too. BUT, I do share the same concerns as mentioned with building more restaurants, concert venue, etc.. 

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Dan Gilbert was on the radio the other morning and I thought I heard him say it would go behind tower city, across from Scranton peninsula.  I'd assume he was talking about the location of the proposed MM/CC

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I love Dan Gilbert and have the utmost confidence he'd build a first class casino.  My only worry is that he doesn't seem to have a particuarly good grasp on "city planning" so to speak as Ari Maron politely pointed out in a Steve Litt column some time back in regards to the convention center planning.  If Issue 3 passes, please build a first class casino.  Build a hotel back there... but please don't try to make this one enclosed entertainment bubble that prohibits people from spreading out and enjoying the rest of the city.  If that happens it will do more harm than good.  And we're already WELL set on concert venues with the Q, Wolstein, HOB, TC Ampitheatre, and Nautica. We don't need anymore of those.

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I love Dan Gilbert and have the utmost confidence he'd build a first class casino.  My only worry is that he doesn't seem to have a particuarly good grasp on "city planning" so to speak as Ari Maron politely pointed out in a Steve Litt column some time back in regards to the convention center planning.  If Issue 3 passes, please build a first class casino.  Build a hotel back there... but please don't try to make this one enclosed entertainment bubble that prohibits people from spreading out and enjoying the rest of the city.  If that happens it will do more harm than good.  And we're already WELL set on concert venues with the Q, Wolstein, HOB, TC Ampitheatre, and Nautica. We don't need anymore of those.

 

Glairing example - The Avenue Mall.  It's not an avenue, nor is it a mall. Discuss.

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I heard the Gilbert interviewer on the The Really Big Show this morning.  He was correct in stating that the passage of Issue 3 all depends on voter turnout.  The people who vote regularly in these odd year elections, tend to vote against Casino proposals, so there is some concern.  However, he claims that 65% of Ohioans overall favor Issue 3. 

 

We'll see.  I have voted against the Ohio casino ballot issues in the past, moreso because I thought the concepts were ill-conceived and not particularly beneficial to Greater Cleveland.  If I were to cast my vote today on this Issue, I would vote yes.  And yes.... the # 1 reason is that I have faith that Dan Gilbert will make this work for Cleveland.

 

As for vision, I would like to see Gilbert build on the latest concepts FCE was proposing for the MM/CC behind TC, especially the activity it provided to the Huron/Ontario area.  I think expanding on the existing garage and building the casino up towards Huron (providing a street presence there) would be ideal.  Also, so the garage does not abut the water, I would like to see something (a hotel?) be built to the south to capitalize on the fact this is waterfront property.  Thoughts? 

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He should spend a night walking around downtown Detroit in his hometown if he wants to see what casinos do for the local economy. They've had two "world class" casinos there for some time--and Detroit is still suffering.

 

I think Detroit had problems before the casinos came and I don't think putting casinos there added to any of those problems.

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I really don't like that they want to include a concert hall, restaurants, and hotel in the complex. That means that we will have a casino providing the same entertainment options as a number of other Downtown businesses as a loss leader.

 

Yeah, but the same argument can be (and has been) made about East 4th Street.  "All East 4th Street will do is take away activity from Ohio City, Tremont and the Warehouse District."  Do we limit the number of restaurants that will be downtown?  Do we say they have to be a certain distance from each other?  Or that one landlord cannot control more than X percentage of the restaurant leased space downtown?

 

There will be people that go to the casino and never leave to explore the city.  But when it brings more people downtown that would never come downtown at all, I think SOME will leave to go elsewhere.  So it will still be a net gain.  And if not, then shame on the city, the Downtown Cleveland Alliance and a number of other groups for not marketing downtown as having any other amenities than a casino.

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In no way, shape or form should they be allowed to build a concert venue along with it - there's the TC Amphitheater right there, Nautica not far away, and House of Blues a few blocks over.

 

What if the casino concert venue REPLACED the TC Amphitheater with a better one?

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Dan Gilbert was on the radio the other morning and I thought I heard him say it would go behind tower city, across from Scranton peninsula. I'd assume he was talking about the location of the proposed MM/CC

 

That's what I've always thought until I read in the paper this morning about the "pedestrian bridge" going across the Cuyahoga River...  Unless they were talking about the current pedestrian bridge that connects the Tower City food court with the federal building?  Maybe that would tie in with a casino that would go where Forest City wanted the Medical Mart. 

 

That would make more sense to me.  There's already a walkway to Quicken Loans Arena.  And I'd rather see a casino in that spot than the Medical Mart.

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Dan Gilbert was on the radio the other morning and I thought I heard him say it would go behind tower city, across from Scranton peninsula. I'd assume he was talking about the location of the proposed MM/CC

 

That's what I've always thought until I read in the paper this morning about the "pedestrian bridge" going across the Cuyahoga River... Unless they were talking about the current pedestrian bridge that connects the Tower City food court with the federal building? Maybe that would tie in with a casino that would go where Forest City wanted the Medical Mart.

 

That would make more sense to me. There's already a walkway to Quicken Loans Arena. And I'd rather see a casino in that spot than the Medical Mart.

 

Excellent point in highlighting the "superior connectivity" espoused by FC during the MM debate (sarcasm intended).

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http://www.sos.state.oh.us/sos/upload/ballotboard/2009/3-text.pdf

Looking at the text of the Issue, the Columbus, Toledo, and Cincinnati locations are already specified, but the Cleveland location includes several options around the Tower City complex. 

It looks to me to include any of these options:

"a" - any part of TC north of Prospect, East/South of Superior

"b" - Landmark Office Towers

"c" - the parking lot south of Huron (CC/MM proposed site),

"d", "e", "f", "g"- various parcels near area of parking lot / TC Amphitheater location between river and Ontario/Huron, on either side of Eagle...

"h" - Higbee building

"i" - Scranton Peninsula

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So many people who will go to these casinos here will be obese and cannot walk 10 feet, so it better be easy for them. Watch as they spend their last rolls of pennies on the penny slot machines... Pathetic. I wish Dan would stick to basketball--and wish Cleveland would set its visions higher than this mediocre copy cat approach at economic development--only the gaming industry wins in the end.  Many will disagree, but maybe they need to visit more progressive cities which have not bought onto this bandwagon and have chosen many other non-desperate creative ways to stimulate their economies. Sorry, I just think we can do better than copy other people. Let's aspire to be more than type-casting our economy as 'sports', 'bars', 'old industry', and 'eat..eat..EAT!!!' Reminds me of Mr. Creosote on Monty Python...all very average.

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So many people who will go to these casinos here will be obese and cannot walk 10 feet, so it better be easy for them. Watch as they spend their last rolls of pennies on the penny slot machines... Pathetic. I wish Dan would stick to basketball--and wish Cleveland would set its visions higher than this mediocre copy cat approach at economic development--only the gaming industry wins in the end.  Many will disagree, but maybe they need to visit more progressive cities which have not bought onto this bandwagon and have chosen many other non-desperate creative ways to stimulate their economies. Sorry, I just think we can do better than copy other people. Let's aspire to be more than type-casting our economy as 'sports', 'bars', 'old industry', and 'eat..eat..EAT!!!' Reminds me of Mr. Creosote on Monty Python...all very average.

 

I really don't think Cleveland is solely banking on Casino's to dig us out of an economic downturn.  I think politicians and leaders are simply aware that Casino's are virtiually everywhere, they are a common fact of life in most states, and why not have them here.  I really don't think we are copying other states, I think we are answering demand.  That's all. 

 

Are Casino's an Economic Force for cities, Heck No!  Sure, they provide jobs and there is some spinoff, but it is not the same as a major corporation moving to town.  However, if planned properly, they can provide for a nighlife around them.  Planning them properly is so important however.   

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So many people who will go to these casinos here will be obese and cannot walk 10 feet, so it better be easy for them. Watch as they spend their last rolls of pennies on the penny slot machines... Pathetic. I wish Dan would stick to basketball--and wish Cleveland would set its visions higher than this mediocre copy cat approach at economic development--only the gaming industry wins in the end.  Many will disagree, but maybe they need to visit more progressive cities which have not bought onto this bandwagon and have chosen many other non-desperate creative ways to stimulate their economies. Sorry, I just think we can do better than copy other people. Let's aspire to be more than type-casting our economy as 'sports', 'bars', 'old industry', and 'eat..eat..EAT!!!' Reminds me of Mr. Creosote on Monty Python...all very average.

 

Would you stop with the "obese" and "non well traveled" comments.  It's a personal issue and statements like that should be posted here on UO.  It's insulting. You don't other people interests, background or financial status and to make statements like that is profiling and wrong.  You don't want people to misinterpret or judge you, so don't assume things about other people.

 

EC have you personally run the numbers??  ONE casino is not going to hurt us and NOBODY is looking at this as a silver bullet to fix all of our ills.

 

I don't think a casino is right for any space in Cleveland but Scranton Pennisula, but I'm not the developer but I kind of think with the proper public input it can be done tastefully and help Tower City as many casinos are attached or in very close proximity to shopping.

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I really don't like that they want to include a concert hall, restaurants, and hotel in the complex. That means that we will have a casino providing the same entertainment options as a number of other Downtown businesses as a loss leader.

 

Yeah, but the same argument can be (and has been) made about East 4th Street.

 

Not the argument I'm making.  I'm not saying we shouldn't allow more restaurants or concert venues.  I'm saying casinos use those as loss leaders to bring people into their casino, where they make it up with gambling revenue.  That means that everyone else in the Downtown market will have to deal with a new competitor with an unfair advantage.

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I really don't like that they want to include a concert hall, restaurants, and hotel in the complex.  That means that we will have a casino providing the same entertainment options as a number of other Downtown businesses as a loss leader

 

Yeah, but the same argument can be (and has been) made about East 4th Street. 

 

Not the argument I'm making.  I'm not saying we shouldn't allow more restaurants or concert venues.  I'm saying casinos use those as loss leaders to bring people into their casino, where they make it up with gambling revenue.  That means that everyone else in the Downtown market will have to deal with a new competitor with an unfair advantage.

 

I agree the Casino should not have more than ONE interior restaurant, nor should the accompanying Hotel if it is built.  If either is to have a restaurant, it must have street level access.

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I don't think it should have any.  It should just be a casino.  Nothing else, though I would let them sell table drinks.  And it should be located in Downtown, not on the fringe of Downtown.  Then it can draw business to a wide range of restaurants, hotels, and bars.

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I don't think it should have any.  It should just be a casino.  Nothing else, though I would let them sell table drinks.  And it should be located in Downtown, not on the fringe of Downtown.  Then it can draw business to a wide range of restaurants, hotels, and bars.

 

I think a quality restaurant with the stipultions provided would be fine.

 

I believe the Casino should be located behind towercity or on SP.

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I don't think it should have any. It should just be a casino. Nothing else, though I would let them sell table drinks. And it should be located in Downtown, not on the fringe of Downtown. Then it can draw business to a wide range of restaurants, hotels, and bars.

 

As much as we would wish this, it's still a casino...where a majority of the patrons will not want to leave once they get there.  As we all know, casino's are designed to make you lose track of time.  Food and drinks provided, entertainment, no windows, no cell phone service in many cases...

 

This casino will have restaurants, bars, etc...but I am with everyone else in wishing what is put in is as mininal as possible, with the aid of city intervention or guidelines.

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I don't think it should have any. It should just be a casino. Nothing else, though I would let them sell table drinks. And it should be located in Downtown, not on the fringe of Downtown. Then it can draw business to a wide range of restaurants, hotels, and bars.

 

As much as we would wish this, it's still a casino...where a majority of the patrons will not want to leave once they get there. As we all know, casino's are designed to make you lose track of time. Food and drinks provided, entertainment, no windows, no cell phone service in many cases...

 

This casino will have restaurants, bars, etc...but I am with everyone else in wishing what is put in is as minimal as possible, with the aid of city intervention or guidelines.

 

Well put MH. I am for the location behind TC with street level access and who would really miss TC Amphitheater. It's a tent in a parking lot.

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This casino will have restaurants, bars, etc...but I am with everyone else in wishing what is put in is as mininal as possible, with the aid of city intervention or guidelines.

 

None of which we are going to get a say in, because of the ridiculous way that this is being brought to the public.

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I think Detroit had problems before the casinos came and I don't think putting casinos there added to any of those problems.

 

And Cleveland has it's share of problems.  Which proves my point--casinos do nothing to spur economic development, other than the near-term construction jobs.

 

Want another example?  Go to Niagara Falls USA where the Indian casino has DEFINITELY helped to worsen the surrounding area.  I think Dan Gilbert and Frank Jackson should take a bus trip together and walk around that area some Friday night....

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Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that the problem with the Detroit model is that the state pulled funds originally allocated to the city yearly after the casinos arrived.  This made the casino funds fill up the hole left by the state, which would eventually lead to problems.

 

I don't know why so many Clevelanders love to bash Detroit, as if Cleveland hasn't seen the same predicament, and is at best, only a couple steps ahead.  The amount of abandonment that is plastered all over national news that Detroit is seeing?  Those of us from Cleveland know that the same thing is happening in this city's neighborhoods, only we don't get the same coverage (albeit thankfully... we have enough bad news from the local media). 

 

Enough about Detroit and other cities.  This is Cleveland. 

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I applaud the hell out of Dan Gilbert.  He might be our city's finest leader.

What has he done besides buying a basketball team and bringing a few hundred jobs to the city.  Has he done anything that will benefit the community more than himself?

Off the top of my head here are some people who have done more for the city and are better leaders

The Gund family, see the foundation

Peter Lewis with his support of the arts and Case

Toby Cosgrove as the face of the Cleveland Clinic

Michael Symon

Lillian Kuri

Peter Lawson Jones (and I am not even a fan of his)

Price and Corna of Stonebridge and 668 fame

Iris and the late Bert Wolstien

Chris Royanne

HELL, SAM MILLER.....

 

I am sorry if I am jumping down your throat, but I have seen posts like these on cleveland.bomb and I just don't get it.  Either these people work and love working for Gilbert, or they just don't know the caliber of leadership in this town.

 

I have nothing against Dan Gilbert.  But, really, what is there to be for?

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