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Cleveland: Downtown: The 9 / Rotunda / County Admin Development

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$3600 is still quite high in this market.  I think most developers are still marketing toward millenials that can shell out modest rents (900-1300) with some sprinkling of a high rent space here and there.  Cleveland has not arrrived yet in the sense thaht someone can build a luxuary apartment tower with 150 units renting at above $3000.  JMHO.

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Crazy? How many square feet are we walking about?

 

Besides, it's a toe in the water of a potentially much deeper market.

 

Crazy wasn't a reference to the square footage, it was a reference to the fact that there is a highrise that had been threatened to be torn down but was instead converted to a multi-use project that is in high demand, has units that can realistically fetch $3600/month (or a lot more), and is just one of many conversions happening in the area. Ten years ago someone would have laughed if you suggested a unit at the Breuer tower would ask and receive $3600/month.

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Some units are priced much higher than $3600

 

 

The apartments in the Breuer tower are more than 90 percent leased, Greg Geis said, while the smaller units in the 1010 building are 75 percent leased. Some of the first apartments to go were the 3,000-square-foot units at the top of the tower, which rent for $5,995 a month.

 

http://www.cleveland.com/business/index.ssf/2014/09/first_look_at_the_9_project_in.html

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Crazy wasn't a reference to the square footage, it was a reference to the fact that there is a highrise that had been threatened to be torn down but was instead converted to a multi-use project that is in high demand, has units that can realistically fetch $3600/month (or a lot more), and is just one of many conversions happening in the area. Ten years ago someone would have laughed if you suggested a unit at the Breuer tower would ask and receive $3600/month.

 

I get that. Crazy is if $3,600 was the market rate for a 1,000-square-foot apartment. It's not crazy is if $3,600 is for a 4,000-square-foot 2BR unit with lots of space for entertaining guests, etc. like some of the penthouse units at the Pinnacle (albeit a condo: http://tinyurl.com/kf59qj8 or see photo below). If the market is $1.50 per square foot, that requires subsidies to develop downtown (as it has). If the market is $3 to $4 per square foot, then the market alone can easily support new residential construction without subsidies. We're still not there yet, but getting closer.

 

That's why a rental or purchase amount is a bit hollow without knowing the square footage.

 

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"Save the planet. Move to the city." -- The Downtowner podcast

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Thanks. OK, so we're talking about $1.80 per square foot. When it passes $2 per square foot, then THAT'S a huge threshhold for being able to win financing without subsidies to build new residential. Close, but not yet....


"Save the planet. Move to the city." -- The Downtowner podcast

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The signs are up for the downtown #cle @Heinens It's getting real.

 

I think they indicated a spring opening? Why am I getting nervous about this location. I want it to work sooo baddd. I just hope they are in it for the long haul. If things are slow in the first 6 months, I hope no one panics. This urban thing is new for Heinens I just hope they have the right people in place to make it work. We have talked about the need for this to be more than a grocery store but a community space. Something needs to be happening every night with cooking classes, wine tastings, meet-ups, special events with celebrity chefs and book signings etc...This store is a game changer,  I need to stop worrying...

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The signs are up for the downtown #cle @Heinens It's getting real.

 

I think they indicated a spring opening? Why am I getting nervous about this location. I want it to work sooo baddd. I just hope they are in it for the long haul. If things are slow in the first 6 months, I hope no one panics. This urban thing is new for Heinens I just hope they have the right people in place to make it work. We have talked about the need for this to be more than a grocery store but a community space. Something needs to be happening every night with cooking classes, wine tastings, meet-ups, special events with celebrity chefs and book signings etc...This store is a game changer,  I need to stop worrying...

 

Stop worrying. The target opening date is February 22nd. And Heinen's isn't going to expect to make money on this store right away. The Hudson stores went in the red for years before it became profitable and I'm not sure the Chicago stores are even at that point yet. The profit margins for grocery stores are very thin, and so they know that being successful is a long process. It's going to take some time, perhaps years, but it will be successful and they have the patience to wait it out.

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I wonder what hours they will keep

 

Hopefully they'll diverge from the standard 8am-8:30pm (8am-6pm on Sunday) hours. I'd like to see a 10pm closing time, if not later.

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I lived in Hudson when Heinens opened their fantastic, boutique-sized Village Market there. So relatively slow it seemed for first year or so (hard to steal away the many fulk size Giant Eagle/fuel perks devotees) that they actually gave frequent shoppers (who spent so many $ in a specific time period) up to $100 in free groceries at the end of the promo if I recal (at GE you got a  turkey, etc...)  Crazy way to buy loyalty, but it seems to have worked. Wonder if they will have to try similar tactics downtown? Hope not.

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I lived in Hudson when Heinens opened their fantastic, boutique-sized Village Market there. So relatively slow it seemed for first year or so (hard to steal away the many fulk size Giant Eagle/fuel perks devotees) that they actually gave frequent shoppers (who spent so many $ in a specific time period) up to $100 in free groceries at the end of the promo if I recal (at GE you got a  turkey, etc...)  Crazy way to buy loyalty, but it seems to have worked. Wonder if they will have to try similar tactics downtown? Hope not.

 

There was a lot more that went into turning around that store than just that promo

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Well, to me, the Hudson Heinen's is the perfect grocery store... I hope what was learned there can aid the downtown store, which will seemingly have a different mix and mission (and clientele)  than other CLE area Heinen's locations.

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Well, to me, the Hudson Heinen's is the perfect grocery store... I hope what was learned there can aid the downtown store, which will seemingly have a different mix and mission (and clientele)  than other CLE area Heinen's locations.

 

Heinen's seems very adaptable in terms of location/climate mix, and I have no doubt their downtown store will be no less than excellent -- just like every Heinen's I've ever been in.

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if anything says long proven quality and commited, it's heinens. lets just keep getting more and more residential going to help them along. it's just the kind of move that will help inspire other sitting on the fence retail businesses to come downtown.

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Just an interesting tidbit, the signs on Heinen's say Equal Exchange Espresso Bar. The only other one of these in the country is Seattle, along with an Equal Exchange Cafe in Boston. Neat! http://equalexchange.coop/about/our-cafes

 

Would be even more awesome if Heinen's could partner with Chicago's Intelligentsia Coffee for the espresso bar.  Heinen's is one of the few spots outside of Intelligentsia's own stores in Chicago, NYC and LA where you can purchase Intelligentsia's coffee.  My espresso machine is always filled with Intelligentsia's Black Cat Blend!  Perhaps something along the lines of Intelligentsia's spot in the High Line Hotel... 

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^

If wishes were horses,

Beggars would ride.

If turnips were bayonets,

I'd wear one by my side.

 

If, ifs and ands were pots and pans,

ther'd be no need for tinkers hands.

If, ifs and buts were candy and nuts,

we’d all have a merry Christmas.

 

:)

 

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Just an interesting tidbit, the signs on Heinen's say Equal Exchange Espresso Bar. The only other one of these in the country is Seattle, along with an Equal Exchange Cafe in Boston. Neat! http://equalexchange.coop/about/our-cafes

 

Would be even more awesome if Heinen's could partner with Chicago's Intelligentsia Coffee for the espresso bar.  Heinen's is one of the few spots outside of Intelligentsia's own stores in Chicago, NYC and LA where you can purchase Intelligentsia's coffee.  My espresso machine is always filled with Intelligentsia's Black Cat Blend!  Perhaps something along the lines of Intelligentsia's spot in the High Line Hotel... 

 

They do online sales too, FWIW.

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It's all wonderful, in every way, except one little tidbit:  many people who work downtown or who come there for business, and probably a good share of Greater Clevelanders, still want to purchase their heavy loads of grocerites and walk right out to the large, open parking lot with the bags

A workman last Friday also confirmed to me, with confidence, they are still planning to open in February.  I asked if there's a date and he said "probably late February."

 

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It's all wonderful, in every way, except one little tidbit:  many people who work downtown or who come there for business, and probably a good share of Greater Clevelanders, still want to purchase their heavy loads of grocerites and walk right out to the large, open parking lot with the bags

A workman last Friday also confirmed to me, with confidence, they are still planning to open in February.  I asked if there's a date and he said "probably late February."

 

 

Maybe, of course you can't take shopping carts into the parking lot at any Heinens store; they have a pick-up lane where they load your car for free.  My understanding is that they'll offer this same service downtown, and will also have valet parking.

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It's all wonderful, in every way, except one little tidbit:  many people who work downtown or who come there for business, and probably a good share of Greater Clevelanders, still want to purchase their heavy loads of grocerites and walk right out to the large, open parking lot with the bags

A workman last Friday also confirmed to me, with confidence, they are still planning to open in February.  I asked if there's a date and he said "probably late February."

 

 

I was told February 22nd by someone at Heinen's Corporate.

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I think we've already covered the parking ground pretty thoroughly upthread. There's no doubt this store format is a bit of a risk for Heinens, but by all accounts they're fully aware. The store doesn't have to be all things to all people to survive and we'll know in a few years if enough people are willing to shop there.

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I'm certain their business plan does not anticipate a significant amount of office workers taking bags of groceries home.  I suspect their business plan was developed based on the downtown residential population usage.  The items they will carry in this store like most urban stores will be geared more towards residents with smaller living space and the need for a 24 pack of paper towels wont be practical.  If they get some office business that will be gravy but they are smart business people and aren't counting on that.  Cleveland is becoming a real urban place and people will have to do things differently like take a taxi to shop in place of pulling a huge open parking lot.  That is exactly why people chose to live downtown so they can walk or take a taxi to the store.

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My guess is that they will do a good catering business at this location. 

 

Haven't thought of that.

 

If they have their awesome diy salad bar (and at the same price as burbs locations) then they'll already be filling an under served niche downtown.

 

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I think we've already covered the parking ground pretty thoroughly upthread. There's no doubt this store format is a bit of a risk for Heinens, but by all accounts they're fully aware. The store doesn't have to be all things to all people to survive and we'll know in a few years if enough people are willing to shop there.

 

A few months more likely, and I suspect they will be.

 

I've discovered something as I move back and forth between plants many days:  even the suburban Heinens' are great places to grab a few things, and be in and out quickly.  Including lunch, to take back to work.

 

I would recommend they try opening early, to catch people going to work.

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I really do not think they will have any trouble bringing in business... But I would strongly suggest they alter their hours at this location. Open early and stay open late, especially in the warmer months, people are always looking for a place to stop in for a coffee or dessert. This would be a great option

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I really do not think they will have any trouble bringing in business... But I would strongly suggest they alter their hours at this location. Open early and stay open late, especially in the warmer months, people are always looking for a place to stop in for a coffee or dessert. This would be a great option

 

Agree re: expanded hours. The mere fact of being open on weekends would be huge for downtown.

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At a suburban store, customers will fill their car every week or two with multiple bags of groceries. At the downtown store, customers will walk away with 1-3 bags of groceries every few days. And I suspect some customers may pick up items to cook for dinner almost every day.

 

And E Rocc is right. The prepared foods for lunch will be a big hit. It's probably the biggest source of foot traffic at Constantino's downtown. And given that the Heinen's will be a visual spectacle and possibly even a tourist attraction, I suspect it will draw a large amount of sit-down/eat-in business.


"Save the planet. Move to the city." -- The Downtowner podcast

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"Upthread" - tee hee....  You guys certain have come up with a lot of intelligent scenarios that might take place that this particular Heinen's.  I'm sure some of you are familiar with downtown-type supermarkets and how they stay in business without good parking.  As for the taxi suggestion and Cleveland becoming more "urban," I haven't noticed more taxis around Greater Cleveland.  Do downtown residents actually call taxis a lot?  If someone calls a taxi to go to a supermarket are you suggesting customers will be dropped off and call a cab when they're ready to leave, or that there will be a line of taxis outside Heinen's on the street, which I don't think will or can happen.

 

I grew up in downtown Rochester, which until the late 1980s or so had both Sibley's Grocery Department - a supermarket connected with a major department store - and a chain supermarket connected with Midtown Plaza.  They're both long gone, though there are surely many more well-off downtown residents now than then, as in all American cities.  I'm sure these markets were getting the uses you guys are mentioning here, but I know at least the Sibley's market offered delivery service to customers for many decades and hence did well.  I know many went downtown to shop and it was part of their trip, let alone all the office workers.

 

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I'm not suggesting there will be more taxi's....I'm suggesting that people will use them more than before.  People will have no choice but to adapt if they live downtown and want to shop. 

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Do downtown residents actually call taxis a lot?  If someone calls a taxi to go to a supermarket are you suggesting customers will be dropped off and call a cab when they're ready to leave, or that there will be a line of taxis outside Heinen's on the street, which I don't think will or can happen.

 

 

Not taxis as you might be imagining but as a dt resident I use UberX and Lyft.  The actual yellow "taxi" services in this city are a joke, people use UberX and Lyft because they are cheaper, more reliable, and don't require cash on hand.

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