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Cleveland: Downtown: The 9 / Rotunda / County Admin Development

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I realize that and I'm not trying to be a developer, nor have I stated I have expertise in the matter, however, what facts or financial requirements STATE a garage needs to be attached to this project??

 

 

Perhaps they see it as a source of additional revenue for events at the Q and Progressive Field.

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Plus, the more garages we have, the less surface lots we need.  I would think that to be a good thing.

 

How can more garages be good????   Its the same thing!  You replace a lot with 100 spaces and replace it with a building - in the same foot print - with 90 spaces per level?

 

Apparently I don't get the math.

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I realize that and I'm not trying to be a developer, nor have I stated I have expertise in the matter, however, what facts or financial requirements STATE a garage needs to be attached to this project??

 

 

Perhaps they see it as a source of additional revenue for events at the Q and Progressive Field.

 

Arent the garages attached/adjacent to the stadia currently underused? 

 

We discussed that here on UO about the garages being built and not utilized properly.

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I realize that and I'm not trying to be a developer, nor have I stated I have expertise in the matter, however, what facts or financial requirements STATE a garage needs to be attached to this project??

 

during the day the current county owned parking garage is often full - with the tower, rotunda, 1010, lower euclid, etc. all empty.

 

i'd think that by adding a hotel, commercial/retail space, hundreds of housing units, that there will be demand for some additional parking that is not supported by the current garage.

 

another poster really hit the point on the head:  cleveland does not have the substantial transit systems that exist in other regions.  outside of daylight hours during the workweek, many areas are innaccessible on transit.  imo, we can continue to encourage walkable neighborhoods, and  develop in ways that encourage people to do more walking and transit use than driving, but in cleveland, for the near future, people who have a choice, will likely continue to choose to at least have access to a car.

 

 

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Re: the parking garage argument:

 

I think-or at least hope-that when we see "parking garage", that includes some sort of ground level retail at the minimum (515 Euclid-esque).  Also, a 6 level garage might allow some other 50 car lots to disappear down the road-especially in this neighborhood.  I work on Huron and the Ameritrust, Halle, and E14th garages are nearly  full even though "downtown is dead and no one works downtown and the ECP has driven businesses out of downtown..."  I'm all for consolidating the dozen or so random lots around PHS and building up Prospect from CSU to E.9th.

 

I wish we'd get the call to start the 515 tower...

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Baby steps when we're talking about eliminating parking.  1 garage of 270 spots is far preferable to 1 lot of 100 spots on the same footprint, especially if it kills demand for 170 other surface spaces.  That's the point.  I'd be interested in finding out the ratio of parking spaces in structured parking to those on surface lots.  Bringing that ratio up a bit couldn't hurt during a transitional phase of a couple decades.

 

 

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The same commission that approved the demolition of the tower? I wouldn't hold my breath.

 

There was a lot of division amongst that commission.

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The planning commission was put between a rock and a hard place with this situation (first time I've actually used that saying  :-D), in that the commissioners could move forward with the demolition even without the planning commission's approval (which the you-know-which-two commissioners planned to do).  I believe the decision to remove the tower was made by the commission to in a way 'save face', in that it is one of the oldest planning commissions in the country and it would be a shame if their opinon and judgement of city projects could be discarded so easily.

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could somebody please sign me up for this?

 

The county pays $32 million to jacobs trust plus maybe another $3 million in fees etc last august, PLUS another $5 million or so in asbestos remediation. THen K&D pays $33,050,000 and  claims they have a win because they created a demand? If you or I ran a company like that, we'd be fired.. or given a $30 million golden parachute, so go figure.

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The planning commission was put between a rock and a hard place with this situation (first time I've actually used that saying  :-D), in that the commissioners could move forward with the demolition even without the planning commission's approval (which the you-know-which-two commissioners planned to do).  I believe the decision to remove the tower was made by the commission to in a way 'save face', in that it is one of the oldest planning commissions in the country and it would be a shame if their opinon and judgement of city projects could be discarded so easily.

 

Someone who is smart, didn't the Supreme Court do this in the early days of the United States in order to preserve its power. A president was threatening to run right over them if they didn't rule his way. Rather than get neutered, they went his way, thus preserving their power. I might have gotten that wrong.

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who give a crap, at least there will be an office tower going up JOBS!! something Cleveland doesn't understand who cares what it looks like and for the moron who said theres too much parking no sh*t nobody lives in the city and no one takes the bus everyone drives from the burbs who cares at least theres finally some action downtown

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who give a crap, at least there will be an office tower going up JOBS!! something Cleveland doesn't understand who cares what it looks like and for the moron who said theres too much parking no sh*t nobody lives in the city and no one takes the bus everyone drives from the burbs who cares at least theres finally some action downtown

 

Office towers don't neccesarily create jobs, businesses do.

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I realize that and I'm not trying to be a developer, nor have I stated I have expertise in the matter, however, what facts or financial requirements STATE a garage needs to be attached to this project??

 

during the day the current county owned parking garage is often full - with the tower, rotunda, 1010, lower euclid, etc. all empty.

 

i'd think that by adding a hotel, commercial/retail space, hundreds of housing units, that there will be demand for some additional parking that is not supported by the current garage.

 

another poster really hit the point on the head:  cleveland does not have the substantial transit systems that exist in other regions.  outside of daylight hours during the workweek, many areas are innaccessible on transit.  imo, we can continue to encourage walkable neighborhoods, and  develop in ways that encourage people to do more walking and transit use than driving, but in cleveland, for the near future, people who have a choice, will likely continue to choose to at least have access to a car.

 

Urbanlife, you say we don't have the substantial transit systems of other regions, yet we have the best in the state and, still, one of the better ones in the US.  Where does RTA not go where biz folks visiting Cleve need to go?  Cleveland has a small, walkable downtown with plenty of cabs, buses and, by the time this project is finished (if it goes as planned), ECP/BRT, ... esp to the Clinic and U.Circle.  When you travel on business to other cities, do you ride buses, trains and cabs around to suburban malls or stick close to downtown?  I don't know about you, but for me (and probably most) it's the latter... I was in Chicago for meeting recently staying, for nearly a week, on the Magnificent Mile with a conference.  Few of us even rode the L (from the airport).  Aside from that, everybody walked, bused and cab-ed around the immediate area (one guy did ride the L to see Wrigley field, but that was 9t)... So how does this put Cleveland at such a transit disadvantage?... We do still have one of the few airport rapid transit systems that many downtown hotel guests use.

 

I'm with MTS on this one... We have good transit here, but the 1st reaction with most every new project is that we don't and that we must start acting like Houston, Detroit or Phoenix and build more and bigger lots to accommodate more cars.  With all the vacant offices in the 9th St/Playhouse Sq. area, I can’t imagine how 1 large condo/hotel put such a strain on parking?  Upscale hotels valet drivers' cars anyway, so does it really matter if parking is immediately on the premises?

 

Also, I don't know why anyone would want to dismantle the overhead walkway across Prospect to the garage.  Clean/fix it up, maybe.  It's not horrible looking; it's been there so long, to me, it's part of the urban fabric of the neighborhood and isn't so God awful.  And in a city of our climate, shouldn't we be encouraging indoor connections like this, the RTA Tober walkway at Gateway and the overhead parking walkway at the Q.  Cincy and Minneapolis are way ahead of Cleveland in this vein and, last I heard, locals aren't kicking up a storm to have them removed because some feel they don't look good...... ultimately, this seems akin to the gross overreaction to the Cleve Trust tower, to begin with, where some foolishly called for its demolition; now averted... for now, anyway.

 

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^WW, K&D paid $35,005,000.

 

Thanks. I'm glad the county sold it, upset they purchased it at all.

 

Looks like we have a cleveland.com douche bag on the boards tonight.

 

classy, w28th.

 

 

Office towers don't neccesarily create jobs, businesses do.

 

bingo.. well, except all the contractors licking their chops on the subs coming out of that deal. (I can here 'em now: "come on big money, my F1-50 needs a fill up!")

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There is something very unpleasing about the sight of an "inverted pyramid."

 

Thanks for buying the site K&D (aka "what the hell is street presence?"), but please don't build this....thing.

 

 

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I realize that and I'm not trying to be a developer, nor have I stated I have expertise in the matter, however, what facts or financial requirements STATE a garage needs to be attached to this project??

 

during the day the current county owned parking garage is often full - with the tower, rotunda, 1010, lower euclid, etc. all empty.

 

i'd think that by adding a hotel, commercial/retail space, hundreds of housing units, that there will be demand for some additional parking that is not supported by the current garage.

 

another poster really hit the point on the head:  cleveland does not have the substantial transit systems that exist in other regions.  outside of daylight hours during the workweek, many areas are innaccessible on transit.  imo, we can continue to encourage walkable neighborhoods, and  develop in ways that encourage people to do more walking and transit use than driving, but in cleveland, for the near future, people who have a choice, will likely continue to choose to at least have access to a car.

 

Urbanlife, you say we don't have the substantial transit systems of other regions, yet we have the best in the state and, still, one of the better ones in the US.  Where does RTA not go where biz folks visiting Cleve need to go?  Cleveland has a small, walkable downtown with plenty of cabs, buses and, by the time this project is finished (if it goes as planned), ECP/BRT, ... esp to the Clinic and U.Circle.  When you travel on business to other cities, do you ride buses, trains and cabs around to suburban malls or stick close to downtown?  I don't know about you, but for me (and probably most) it's the latter... I was in Chicago for meeting recently staying, for nearly a week, on the Magnificent Mile with a conference.  Few of us even rode the L (from the airport).  Aside from that, everybody walked, bused and cab-ed around the immediate area (one guy did ride the L to see Wrigley field, but that was 9t)... So how does this put Cleveland at such a transit disadvantage?... We do still have one of the few airport rapid transit systems that many downtown hotel guests use.

 

I'm with MTS on this one... We have good transit here, but the 1st reaction with most every new project is that we don't and that we must start acting like Houston, Detroit or Phoenix and build more and bigger lots to accommodate more cars.  With all the vacant offices in the 9th St/Playhouse Sq. area, I cant imagine how 1 large condo/hotel put such a strain on parking?  Upscale hotels valet drivers' cars anyway, so does it really matter if parking is immediately on the premises?

 

Also, I don't know why anyone would want to dismantle the overhead walkway across Prospect to the garage.  Clean/fix it up, maybe.  It's not horrible looking; it's been there so long, to me, it's part of the urban fabric of the neighborhood and isn't so God awful.  And in a city of our climate, shouldn't we be encouraging indoor connections like this, the RTA Tober walkway at Gateway and the overhead parking walkway at the Q.  Cincy and Minneapolis are way ahead of Cleveland in this vein and, last I heard, locals aren't kicking up a storm to have them removed because some feel they don't look good...... ultimately, this seems akin to the gross overreaction to the Cleve Trust tower, to begin with, where some foolishly called for its demolition; now averted... for now, anyway.

 

 

  Sorry, but i am with Urbanlife on this one.  First off, the proposal calls for two parking garages... where 2 parking garages already exist.  They aren't exactly tearing down some worthwhile buildings just for parking structures.  And they are planning on placing residential towers on top of it... So I just don't think it's that big a deal.  And trust me, I love downtown. I have lived down here for a while. But you still NEED a car. Like it or not, many businesses aren't open on the weekend if there isn't an event.  Things like going out for lunch can be an issue if you don't want to eat at the winking lizard all the time. The trolley's don't run on the weekend so it's not even easy to get from one side of downtown to the other (and trust me when it's 8 outside you won't walk from gateway to WHD to get something to eat). Our transit is great as a park and ride system, but i can't exactly hop on the train and have it drop me off in say the main stretch of lakewood, or cleveland heights, etc. About the only place it can take us that is "dense" is shaker square... and we do that fairly often.  Face it, as much as we would all like a 24 hour downtown, and a transit system that connects the neighborhoods, we aren't there yet.  Therefore any project with this much housing is going to require parking for residents... and for the suburbanites who decide to live in Sandusky and drive into downtown for work.  We're getting there but we are nowhere near ready for carless living downtown.

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I have been thinking about this for the last few days. Since K&D is now going to try and develop the area on Euclid between E. 4th and E. 9th as well as the new (pending) purchase of the properties on Euclid and E. 9th, I take it that this entire area has a very bright future in store, which is MUCH needed. There is a ton of interest in this part of Cleveland, especially on Euclid in the low double-digits area.

 

With that said, I am now assuming K&D will be shifting focus to this part of Cleveland over the next few years and will perhaps fade out on the Stonebridge project, or at a very minimum, cut down on it. I understand they are big and can handle multiple projects, but I am not sure they are big enough to handle ALL of this at once.

 

Euclid from E. 4th to CSU is becoming an entirely new street as we speak. I remember the old Euclid of the 1990's and it's much different today. Imagine in 10 years what it's going to look like!! I hope K&D realizes they are embarking on what I see as the single best intersection in all of Cleveland.

 

Regardless of anything that comes out of this: this Bauhaus masterpiece has been saved - there is a very rich history to this "ugly" beautiful creation by Marcel Breur! Thank the LORD for it's been saved!

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Urbanlife, you say we don't have the substantial transit systems of other regions, yet we have the best in the state and, still, one of the better ones in the US.  Where does RTA not go where biz folks visiting Cleve need to go? 

 

clvlndr, my opinion is based more on the residential component involved in this project and other downtown projects. 

 

i live downtown, and i use the RTA almost every day.  however, i don't think i could or would live downtown if i couldn't have at least 1 car in my household.  whether for business, shopping, entertainment - it just isn't easy at certain times of the day (and sometimes never) to get the solon, akron, strongsville, medina, westlake, etc. let alone the other side of downtown for that matter as McCleveland mentioned.  and, depending on what type of business you are involved in, saying "the bus doesn't run there" isn't considered a good excuse for not making a meeting.

 

also, i'm meeting more and more people who are "forced" to take jobs in the suburbs, b/c that is where a lot of job growth has been over the last couple of decades, but choose to live downtown.   they expect to keep their car as the transit options either don't serve these less dense areas or the areas are only served a few times a day.

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Indeed, as another Downtown resident I have to say parking is still necessary, even if I drive less than I would in the suburbs.  The problem is that even if there are only a couple of places you need to go that transit doesn't go or doesn't go at the times you need to go or takes longer than you can wait to get there, then you need to have a car still.  It's funny when people who don't live Downtown seem to want us to be an instaManhattan.  If you want that for downtown, please do me a favor and open a full service, late night grocery store/household goods store/bookstore/music store combo with a food court open outside office hours, and also please either build transit to or convince my family and friends to move within service range of RTA.  Then I'll be more than happy to live your carfree urbanite fantasies out for you.

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"Euclid from E. 4th to CSU is becoming an entirely new street as we speak."

 

You can also count E4th to Public Square.  Bang and Clatter Theater, Park Building, Terminal Tower renovations.  Also, maybe there is something brewing about the May Company building......

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i heard from a friend in real estate they are definitely going to Higbee's... though that is second hand and not from the horse's mouth so to speak so i guess anything is still possible.

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What am I going to say folks?!?

 

Oh, let me guess!

 

"I wish I had a keg of Christmas Ale to hold me over until summer.... and that I could drink to a nightly toast by the apparent positive turn in events leading to the saving of Breuer."

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Indeed, as another Downtown resident I have to say parking is still necessary, even if I drive less than I would in the suburbs.  The problem is that even if there are only a couple of places you need to go that transit doesn't go or doesn't go at the times you need to go or takes longer than you can wait to get there, then you need to have a car still.  It's funny when people who don't live Downtown seem to want us to be an instaManhattan.  If you want that for downtown, please do me a favor and open a full service, late night grocery store/household goods store/bookstore/music store combo with a food court open outside office hours, and also please either build transit to or convince my family and friends to move within service range of RTA.  Then I'll be more than happy to live your carfree urbanite fantasies out for you.

 

X, I hope that is not how you interpretted my post.  As I've said a-thousand-and-one-times you cannot compare NYC (especially manhattan) to any North American city.

 

I am just trying to understand the need for more parking spaces, especially when we complain that there are currently too many and not proper transportation throughout the city.  Without seeing any number and a model, it just appears obsessive to me.

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^ The Bitch is back.

 

Too bad the subject isn't!


"Save the planet. Move to the city." -- The Downtowner podcast

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Not really meant as a reply towards you, MyTwoSense.  Alot of people on this board have this ideal, which I share.  But it is one thing to have an ideal, another to apply it to another's circumstances without knowing if it really works for them.  Frankly, I am more concerned with eliminating surface parking than with eliminating parking, period.  Of course, I hope these garages aren't parking on the first floor, becaue that is almost as bad as surface parking.

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