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Cleveland: Downtown: The 9 / Rotunda / County Admin Development

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I'm not wild about K&D being the owner/operator of the residential component. They seem to be pretty cheap on maintenance at their existing apartments around the metro area. That being said, I'd rather have one bid than none.

 

Also, as to the residential market, I'm continually astonished about how many inquiries Urban Ohio's relocation thread is getting from out-of-towners coming to Cleveland for jobs in its growing markets (health care, bio-med, alternative energy, arts, legal, etc.). There is something going on with the relocations and I don't think we (local demographers) have a full grasp yet on the statistics of it. Developers do have some insights, like the statistic that Nathan Zaremba conveyed about an average of 100 people starting jobs at Cleveland Clinic's main campus every Monday.

 

With fuel prices going up, and likely to rise further, high-density mixed-use developments within walking, biking and transit distance from each other may see further demand and may possibly siphon residents from some of the real estate markets in car-dependent exurban areas. That's especially true of young professionals. I was helping a woman from Orlando get settled at the Bingham in the Warehouse District. Every neighbor we encountered was in the 20-40 years old range who want to be close to lots of social stuff (bars, restaurants, shopping, general excitement, etc) in close proximity and a sense of belonging to something bigger than them. They can't get that in the suburbs.

 

The Ameritrust redevelopment (plus the others nearby) and the Euclid Corridor may create some amazing synergies based on all of the above.


"Fascism begins the moment a ruling class, fearing the people may use their political democracy to gain economic democracy, begins to destroy political democracy in order to retain its power of exploitation and special privilege." -- Tommy Douglas, Scottish-born Canadian Baptist minister and the seventh Premier of Saskatchewan

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I'm glad that K&D/someone other than the "traditional players" got ahold of the tower. It was all bad from the begining. Too many dollars to be spent on what amounts to being just the rotunda and clean land and a bland structure. There are litteraly dozens of empty lots and much cheaper to demolish insigificant buildings that this could have been done in the first place.

 

Now to focus on what K&D is doing. Yeah those 2 lowrise buildings need to go on huron. Hopefuly that inverted glass box is nowhere near whats going to be there. How would a hotel work? oengus1963 has a point about the valet thing, I don't think that they will be allowed to get a curb cut on our brand new euclid ave, E 9th could work?

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I think I've underestimated you, Ned. I don't know why it took me so long. You've started using your incompetence as a weapon.

 

-- Peter Lowenstein (Ted Danson), “Body Heat”

 

 

And so it goes in Cleveland…We take a iconic/historic bank rotunda and attached high-rise of some historical note; both sitting vacant and crumbling in the heart of the financial district.  Then along comes the wayward county, bungling, boisterous with some vague, poorly conceived ‘plan’ of moving their workers into these buildings.  Then they foolishly talk of tearing down the tower to replace it with a squat structure covering more valuable land.  Then they draw ire from the architecture preservationist community but, more than anything, they waste 2+ years millions of $... Yet, in the end, we somehow net a swanky hotel/condo in those very same buildings which, I guarantee you, wouldn’t have happened without the publicity and dead-end option posed by the county causing K & D to bail them out – thank God for K & D!  I shudder to think of where the Flats would be without them.  Not a bad deal.

 

… Now if we could get those squabbling, loudmouth, non-visionary commissioners (who, to their credit, have handled the Medical Mart/convention center situation quite masterfully), to get off their asses and finally use their 2,000+ worker bases as a tool to build a multi-use structure to really help downtown – as they’d originally pledged, then we’d really be ahead of the game… but right now, I’ll just celebrate the “new” Cleveland Trust tower/rotunda which sounds similar to what (Cleveland’s) John Ferchill is doing with Detroit’s old vacant Book Cadillac Hotel building in Detroit.  As for a new County building?… I won’t hold my breath.

 

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My spider sense it telling me that the county will end up in Starks development. 

 

Now what hotel will this be?  Please NO MORE low budget joints!

 

and my biggest gripe - why more parking!!!  ugh!

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He was Hungarian by birth, lived in France, the media had it correct. 

 

I don't pretend to be his biographer, but I have never, ever heard Marcel Breuer described as "French."  He certainly didn't spend much of his life there, unless it was a big chunk of elementary school or something.  The guy actually lived in the US longer than he did in all of Europe (Hungary, Germany, London, and France combined).

 

Anyhoo, after letting the info sink in overnight, I'm still thrilled, but have tempered my excitement: there is still a whole lot of work to be done before we can be sure any of K&D's big plans will materialize.  At the very least, the tower is off the hot seat for a while.  As for hotel entrance- wouldn't the E9th street frontage of the Rotunda offer space for a car drop-off?  This is a pretty small hotel, I don't think they're gonna need a circular drive or anything-the Ritz seems to do fine without one.

 

MTS, interesting thought about ending up in Stark's project.  I wouldn't be upset if the county ended up using its leverage as a big tenant to help get one of these transformative projects off the ground- provided it doesn't get gouged on the rent.

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I think the hotel entrance on Prospect or Huron would be better.

 

I also thought about the county ending up on the lake in the Waterfront Line loop.

 

This could be billed as a "win-win" situation for all parties.

 

But for christsakes... PLEASE STOP BUILDING F*UCKING PARKING GARAGES....thanks and have a good day.

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Thank you Jesus that this building was sparred the wrecking ball!  This project is just as important--if not more important than Stark's, Wolstein's, or Zaremba's project.  I saw the front page of the PD in a stand this morning and was like,  :-o

 

Happy Wednesday! 

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K&D has not bought this building yet!  They just won the bid.  K&D still needs to get financing for the purchase and I guarantee there are many stipulations in the contract that enable K&D to rescind on the deal if everything doesn't work out.  I don't mean to be a downer, but these BIG projects get a lot of media attention and fuel the pessimistic attitude in Cleveland when they can't get done.  This is far from a slam dunk deal, believe me. 

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K&D has not bought this building yet!  They just won the bid.  K&D still needs to get financing for the purchase and I guarantee there are many stipulations in the contract that enable K&D to rescind on the deal if everything doesn't work out.  I don't mean to be a downer, but these BIG projects get a lot of media attention and fuel the pessimistic attitude in Cleveland when they can't get done.  This is far from a slam dunk deal, believe me. 

 

I am very curious what the rules for the bid were.  The whole "oops, forgot to give you the whole $500k deposit) move could very well be a hedge on their own confidence in putting their initial financing together- I'm guessing the deposit will not be refundable under any buyer-side circumstances.

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Hate to sidetrack us with actual info about the project...but the PD has some more coverage, including this bit about the purchase price:

 

K&D would give the county $20 million up front, and the other $15 million in a promissory note to be fulfilled in up to two years. The firm's bid asks the county to chip in $1 million toward further asbestos removal. The bid also indicates financing for the deal hasn't been secured, Assistant County Prosecutor David Lambert said.

 

http://www.cleveland.com/news/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/cuyahoga/1200475812269740.xml&coll=2

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"I think K&D’s designs are regressing each phase of stonebridge is getting more and more out there.  I think enough already, get off the ultra contemporary.  I like contemporary, but it is as if they cut and pasted one of there renderings of a phase of stonebridge in back of the tower."

 

True, Doug Price's designs are horrible and poorly constructed views of what he thinks contemporary architecture is (and this proposal for E9th and Huron is the worst I've seen), but don't let that give contemporary, authentically current design a bad name.

The proposal looks like an Orlando office park from the early 1990's, complete with barren plaza.

But, tower saved.  It could be worse.

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Another concern is, as I believe someone mentioned on the 668 thread, is the possible inability for K & D to grasp "urban planning principles" and the importance of continuity on Euclid, in that they want to tear down the building next to 668.  Look at the sight plan for what they "want" to do to the Euclid side of the rotunda, eventually tearing down what is there, adding a building and creating "plazas".  Not a good idea for Euclid :wtf:.  Otherwise great news for the tower!     

 

A better view at:  http://blog.cleveland.com/business/2008/01/16FGPLANS.pdf

 

 

 

 

 

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and my biggest gripe - why more parking!!!  ugh!

 

Because people drive.. sorry MTS, a lot of people drive.  As much as that may take years off your life.. people drive, especially people staying at hotels.

 

^Dear god that is horrible.  I was scared that that was a proposal for a second.

 

Do you like ANYTHING?  What exactly is so bad about that?  It's a crude sketch..

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^ i was noticing that... it appears the buidling they want to remove on Euclid would be the Truman Building (1030 Euclid Ave), No?  That would be a shame.  That building is beautiful... granted currently falling appart, but if restored, beautiful.

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In theory, I do like the cut-through. I just don't trust K&D to pull off a good design for it. It really could be very very cool if the space is well programmed and lined with some appropriate retail/cafes. I also don't want to see a half-finished plaza and cut-through while the developers try to pre-lease any new construction.

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Ugh.. worst part of the proposal graphic is the Jake being labeled "Progressive Field"

 

honestly, I would say the bridge from the office building to the parking garage is worse than a name on a baseball field.

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Because people drive.. sorry MTS, a lot of people drive.  As much as that may take years off your life.. people drive, especially people staying at hotels.

 

Especially people staying in hotels?  Well I guess the folks in Boston, Philly, Baltimore, NY,DC, CHI, SF are rules to the exception??  

 

We are currently trying to improve our transit usage.  We've got a multimillion dollar project going up right in front of this proposal.  Those garages are a crutches and CONFLICT with the ECP.  I can see adding 100 spaces in the the current garage for the resident and ½ the total number of rooms for the proposed hotel, MAX.

 

You're living, working, shopping and dining downtown, why the hell do you need a f8ckin' car?

 

NE Ohioians are always screaming we're not like X city.  How can we when we plan and accept ridiculous substandard not well thoughtout bullshit!  Silly shit like this is going to increase my caffeine intake and I've been doing so well.  yes I know its only for visuals, but it burns me up!

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Ugh.. worst part of the proposal graphic is the Jake being labeled "Progressive Field"

 

honestly, I would say the bridge from the office building to the parking garage is worse than a name on a baseball field.

 

It's been there for years.  why NOW is it a problem?

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Because people drive.. sorry MTS, a lot of people drive.  As much as that may take years off your life.. people drive, especially people staying at hotels.

 

Especially people staying in hotels?  Well I guess the folks in Boston, Philly, Baltimore, NY,DC, CHI, SF are rules to the exception?? 

 

We are currently trying to improve our transit usage.  We've got a multimillion dollar project going up right in front of this proposal.  Those garages are a crutches and CONFLICT with the ECP.  I can see adding 100 spaces in the the current garage for the resident and ½ the total number of rooms for the proposed hotel, MAX.

 

You're living, working, shopping and dining downtown, why the hell do you need a f8ckin' car?

 

NE Ohioians are always screaming we're not like X city.  How can we when we plan and accept ridiculous substandard not well thoughtout bullshit!  Silly shit like this is going to increase my caffeine intake and I've been doing so well.  yes I know its only for visuals, but it burns me up!

 

Just because we want cleveland to be less car dependent and more transit friendly, doesn't mean we can just not build a parking garage and magically everyone's on RTA.

 

Also, MTS, you ain't no property developer. What you think a hotel/condo requires is probably far different from what the market/developers is dictating.

 

Also, watch you language.

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^^^ I think the garages are a necessary evil, and it has nothing to do with the hotel... But people working in the new office space are going to need parking, and all the additional living spaces are going to require parking.  I have lived downtown for 5 years and still have and need on occasion a car.  Not that i use it all that often... but it is still necessary.  Our transportation system isn't exactly like Chicago or New York where you can go anywhere you want easily.

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and my biggest gripe - why more parking!!!  ugh!

 

Because people drive.. sorry MTS, a lot of people drive.  As much as that may take years off your life.. people drive, especially people staying at hotels.

 

^Dear god that is horrible.  I was scared that that was a proposal for a second.

 

Do you like ANYTHING?  What exactly is so bad about that?  It's a crude sketch..

 

I don't like garbage.  And that's garbage, along with the Qbert Tower and cutthrough to Euclid Avenue.  And really, the cutthrough to Euclid wouldn't be as bad if it wasn't so wide.  Bringing it down to a better scale where it seems jsut a bit larger than an alley would be a more successful approach than having yet another K&D enduced gaping wound in the Euclid Avenue canyon.  There are enough large empty plazas around town (Key Bank on E9th, NCB, One Cleveland Center, Federal Building, Huron/Prospect, North Point, Mall B & C, just to name a few).  Plazas should only be created when the pedestrian density of the street needs to be exhausted.

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Just because we want cleveland to be less car dependent and more transit friendly, doesn't mean we can just not build a parking garage and magically everyone's on RTA.

 

Also, MTS, you ain't no property developer. What you think a hotel/condo requires is probably far different from what the market/developers is dictating.

 

Also, watch you language.

 

I realize that and I'm not trying to be a developer, nor have I stated I have expertise in the matter, however, what facts or financial requirements STATE a garage needs to be attached to this project??

 

Why is the city not more proactive in creating a walking enviornment.  We cannot change the damage done 40 years ago, but we must put out foot down somewhere.  There are various garages/lots in close proximity to the East Ninth-Euclid/Huron/Prospect/Bolivar area.  Is there really a need for an additional lot on steriods?

 

I'm done....parking garages get my pressure up!

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