Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Guest Cincinnatus

Cincinnati: Over-the-Rhine: School for the Creative & Performing Arts

Recommended Posts

I'm with you, PhattiNati, I don't see how this building is going to complement the existing architecture.  Don't get me wrong, I'm supportive of the new school....I just don't like this design.  Notice that there is no rendering of the new school in context, showing the impact that it might have on the St. John's Church, Memorial Hall, the Park, the First Lutheran Church, and Music Hall.  To me it seems like an ultra-modern hallucination dreamed up by some suburban architect who has never lived close to downtown.  Yes, it's "cool", but when you have a historic district of the national significance of OTR, shouldn't a little more attention be paid to how new stuff will fit in?  I mean, would you ever see this in Charleston? Savannah? New Orleans? Beacon Hill? Greenwich Village?  London? Paris?  Cincinnatians don't seem to realize how unique OTR is nationally, and that it could actually be as successful and prosperous as other tourist destinations.

 

Did anyone see the renderings back in 2003?  At that time there was a different architect, and their design was the best contextual modern architecture I've probably ever seen.  The building totally "fit in".  Then something happened, they switched architects, and we're winding up with something WAY different.  Plus we're losing 5 historic buildings -- for some reason the design team refused to even consider incorporating the old italianate buildings into the new structure.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

dglenn those neighborhoods you mentioned are great but there not what we have in all honesty.  We have a good portion of buildings in OTR that are sound enough to be saved but we also have a good portion that don't and shouldn't.  Losing buildings sucks but we've already lost an entire neighborhood.  I can deal with this prospect for change.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

From the 4/30/06 Enquirer:

 

 

Designed with arts in mind

The new School for Creative and Performing Arts will be built to harmonize with students' artistic needs and talents

BY JANELLE GELFAND | ENQUIRER STAFF WRITER

 

It started as a dream in 1996. Now, 10 years later, a design - partly inspired by the movie "Fame" - has been unveiled for the new School for Creative and Performing Arts in Over-the-Rhine.

 

Cincinnati's school board approved the design Monday.

 

http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060430/ENT07/604300331/1025/rss05

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Weedrose, what are you basing your opinion on?  Have you done financial analyses of buildings in OTR which demonstrates that they cannot and should not be saved?  And when you say we've already lost an entire neighborhood, what do you mean?  More than half of the original fabric is still there, not to mention many of the critical pieces of the original German neighborhood: Music Hall (the oldest large Music Hall still in existence), Memorial Hall, the Germania Building, Goodfellows Hall, Cosmopolitan Hall, Moerlein's Bottling Plant, Hudepohl's Bottling Plant, the Jackson Brewery, the Sohn Brewery, Findlay Market, Wielert's Beer Garden, Heuck's Opera House Saloon, the Alms and Doepke building, Woodward High School, Rothenburg School, St. Johannes Church, St Paul's Cathedral, Old St. Mary's Church, St. Paulus Church, Nast Church (the first German Methodist Church in the country), 1st English Lutheran Church, St. Phillipus Church, St. Seraph's Church, the Evangelical Salem's Church, and a collection of 3-5 story tenements with a horizontal and vertical density not to be found anywhere else in the country, outside New York.  Shall I go on?  How about the fact that OTR had the first Turnverein in the country?  And the fact that Levi Coffin had a house that was a station along the underground railroad?  And the fact that Harriet Beecher Stowe lived in the neighborhood?

 

Where else can you find a 19th century German immigrant community this large and this intact?  Can you name me an example?  You're right that OTR is not not quite up there with the places I named, but it could be a significant tourist draw nonetheless.  After all, German is easily the most prevalent ethnic heritage among Americans.  And it just so happens that Cincinnati was one of the 3 or 4 biggest targets for German immigration in the U.S., and that the most heavily concentrated German community in the City is largely preserved.  And you're telling me it's not all that great?

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

dglenn I have conducted some financial analysis on the worth of those structures in their current condition.  You mentioned great examples of some truly wonderful structures and beautiful shells but the neighborhood is more than what you mentioned.  Not everything in that neighborhood is valuable, a portion of those structures should be destroyed (and many should be saved).  The neighborhood would work with a mixture of the old and the new, celebrate history but don't stay locked in a 19th century mindset.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
dglenn I have conducted some financial analysis on the worth of those structures in their current condition.  You mentioned great examples of some truly wonderful structures and beautiful shells but the neighborhood is more than what you mentioned.

 

Weedrose, could you share some examples of your analyses on these buildings?  I would be interested to see your findings and how you came to your conclusions.

 

Thanks.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Weedrose, I will give you that there are a few structures that aren't really very valuable to the district, and should maybe come down.  There's a frame structure in the 1600 block of elm; there are a couple on pleasant south of liberty that are so isolated and alone that they may need to be razed to make room for large scale infill; then there are several that have been altered so much that they have lost much of their original character, and are no longer considered "contributing" buildings.  But beyond those examples, I would argue strongly against demolition of anything else.

 

I, too, would be interested to know how you did your financial analysis and came to your conclusions -- especially what assumptions you used.

 

Finally, I agree with you conceptually that the neighborhood could work with a mixture of old and new.  But it would be nice to have an example of a community where that's worked successfully, without damaging the character of the historic environment.  I have yet to come across such a community.  I'd love to hear it if you know of one.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Mostly, I assumed an 8% CAP for the streets like 13th and 14th around Vine, I don't consider the comp picture around the area to be as strong as say Dayton Street in the West End (pre citylink) where I actually used a 7%.  I used pretty standard valuation techniques overall.  Since I didn't have financial documents from the buildings I assumed 20% vacancy on the soft end to 60% vacancy.  For the land, I used best use valuation.  I also priced in sales around the area that I got from the auditor's site but to do a true valuation I would need Schedule Es, maintenance, rent roll information etc so I had to make some pretty progressive assumptions.  I also depreciated the numbers slightly if for example Music Hall were to move.  It's fairly easy to do.  My friend and I are in the process of starting an LLC to do real estate development and we're definitely interested in being third wavers in the area.   We were looking to acquire a multi-unit in Mt. Auburn but we were dicked around by the agent and there was more extensive damage throughout the structure than we were comfortable with.  About the time we were looking for our building is when I did some comps in OTR.

As for a mixture of the old and the new I would say some good examples locally would be parts of Mt. Adams further, your previous examples of the Beacon Hill area work, a good portion of the original fabric remains but there is a mixture of structures thaat have been equally preserved as well as character fitting property.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

well said, I'm impressed.

 

How did you determine hard costs?  What per/SF numbers did you use?  What contractor fee did you assume? 

I ask because once you add up all these assumptions, the definition of "too far gone" can be quite fluid.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

SCPA project set to begin, though $6M still needed

School district to loan funds so work can start in spring

LAURA BAVERMAN | LBAVERMAN@BIZJOURNALS.COM

February 23, 2007

 

CINCINNATI - A bright, new sign stands tall at the future site of the new School for Creative and Performing Arts in Over-the-Rhine, signifying a decade of work becoming a reality.

 

School fund raisers are still $6.3 million away from their $31 million goal, a figure that matches investment from Cincinnati Public Schools and the state. But that sign means the 250,000-square-foot performing arts center, touted as the nation's first K-12 performing arts school, is actually happening.

 

http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/stories/2007/02/26/story17.html

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

^Great!

 

I recently saw an older design for this that was almost all brick, with circular towers, etc.; it would have looked great. While I like how this desing looks on paper, I wonder what it will look like in reality, should be fun to see it finished.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Deal may pave way for new SCPA

 

By Joe Wessels

Post contributor

 

City of Cincinnati and Cincinnati School Board officials are near an agreement with the Drop Inn Center to sell buildings standing in the way of a proposed relocated School for Creative and Performing Arts.

 

The Drop Inn Center, Cincinnati's largest homeless shelter and located at 12th and Race streets, has been reluctant to sell the buildings - used as transitional housing for 16 people - in the northwest corner of a parking lot on two blocks between Central Parkway, Elm, 12th and Race streets.

 

http://news.cincypost.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070616/NEWS01/706160337

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The new building would be purchased by the City of Cincinnati and be rehabilitated for use as transitional housing, and then the Drop Inn Center would run it.

 

The city would retain ownership.

 

While this may be good for CPS, it doesn't help the neighborhood by just pushing the social service agencies to other parts of OTR.  This is one of the biggest impediments to OTR realizing it's full potential, the massive concentration of social service agencies that draw people from all over the city, county, and region (over 100 at the last count, not including Citylink's massive proposed complex).  This will be the next big fight in the coming months.  Don't count on the Community Council rubberstamping this.

 

And why the hell is the city buying the building?  The original plan had OTR Community Housing owning and rehabbing the building with $800,000 of city money.  I'm not a fan of the city spending money for this service in this neighborhood.  If we really want people to turn their lives around, wouldn't it be good to put them in established locations that don't have one of the city's worst bars down the street with drug dealing still going on in daylight (not that we're trying to get rid of that).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

^ I think it helps because if the city owns the building the city can make the rules for the use of the building, and the city can decide whether to continue renting the building to the Drop Inn Center.  As it is now, the Drop Inn Center is holding the city and development hostage in the southwestern section of OTR.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

^ I think it helps because if the city owns the building the city can make the rules for the use of the building, and the city can decide whether to continue renting the building to the Drop Inn Center.  As it is now, the Drop Inn Center is holding the city and development hostage in the southwestern section of OTR.

 

But there is development going on in that area of OTR as well, and giving them a foothold in north OTR doesn't solve the overall problem, it just moves it.  The point is, the problem is bigger than just one building or even one neighborhood.  Why should one neighborhood have to deal with all the region's problems?  How many people served by these agencies were originally OTR residents?  Almost none, they came from other places. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

With these kinds of social services, no one wants them. No neighborhood in the city will raise its hand to ask for transitional housing for the formerly homeless. OTR remains close and always will to the public transit system which these folks need. Not much we can do about it. Perhaps Fairmont or Lower Price Hill will be more fitting in 5-10 years when OTR is going full speed ahead.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Rumors have persisted that the shelter might move out of Over-the-Rhine, possibly to a site in Queensgate, as has been suggested by Vice Mayor James Tarbell.

 

That is not in the plans, Clifford said.

 

"You can have a world-class arts school and a homeless shelter and co-exist," Clifford said. "It co-exists that way in other cities. We want to view it as a collaboration in and of itself."

 

Just curious...

 

What other cities have a world-class arts school and a homeless shelter that co-exist?  Furthermore,what do the neighborhoods look like?  What cities and/or situations would the Drop Inn center like to use as a model?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Clifford doesn't cite any examples.  Does anyone know how successful the Drop Inn Center has been at getting homeless people back on the right track?  Recently I saw a guy sitting on the front steps of one of their buildings drinking liquor covered with a brown paper bag.  It doesn't strike me as an effective policy to allow people to drink alcohol right on their property.  I walked up the street to see another guy using some kind of drug right in front of me on Elm Street.

 

Joe Wessels took this photo from his apartment window overlooking Washington Park.  A suburban heroin user overdosed by the park:

552859318_bdb2ad1296.jpg

 

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Rumors have persisted that the shelter might move out of Over-the-Rhine, possibly to a site in Queensgate, as has been suggested by Vice Mayor James Tarbell.

That is not in the plans, Clifford said.

"You can have a world-class arts school and a homeless shelter and co-exist," Clifford said. "It co-exists that way in other cities. We want to view it as a collaboration in and of itself."

Just curious...

 

What other cities have a world-class arts school and a homeless shelter that co-exist?  Furthermore,what do the neighborhoods look like?  What cities and/or situations would the Drop Inn center like to use as a model?

Maybe the question could be turned around thus:  Where is the best example of shelters?  Where are they located (city center, industrial areas, dispersed) and how are they run?  (eg: by the govt, by churches, by activists).  I am certain this issue is faced by most cities, and it seems like someone would have done the research on this.

 

As a side note I happened upon this 8 year old article in City Beat about the Drop Inn Center and the "Kunzel Plan" as it was then called:

http://citybeat.com/1999-02-18/artsbeat.shtml

 

Arts & Education Center spokesperson Paul Bernish says $6 million is budgeted for an overall relocation fund for affected businesses, including the Drop Inn Center. So far the word from Drop Inn Center's coordinator, Pat Clifford, is firm. He has no plans to move.

 

"Why, when you pour resources into an area, do the poor have to be out of sight?" Clifford asks.

 

Still, it's clear that a win/win situation is attainable. Fair contributions from Kunzel's supporters could provide funding for an improved Drop Inn Center in a nearby Over-the-Rhine location. Not that long ago I lived across the street from Music Hall, in a 14th Street apartment. Believe me, there is plenty of real estate ready to become a bigger and better Drop Inn Center. But lines are quickly being drawn in the sand, and the prospects for productive negotiations already look slim. Rumors about shipping the Drop Inn Center off to the airport are being spread. The debate -- which could be a healthy examination of the issues -- is dissolving into fear tactics.

...

... If it leads to an improved Drop Inn Center in another Over-the-Rhine location, I find it difficult not to see the project as a win/win situation for everyone. I hope truth will win out.

 

"The issue will be played out in a sense with the people in the community. Is Music Hall and the neighborhood adjoining Music Hall worth saving and worth revitalizing?" asks Bernish.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Can I ask a really dumb question? Why is it so important that the Drop In Center stay in OTR?

Maybe this is obvious to long time Cincinnatians, but I've only been here a few years. This whole arguement makes no sense to me.

Don't the people with more reasources always displace the people with less? It may be ugly but I don't get this.

 

The Last Don, did you call the police? There was a couple week period last summer where groups of young guys were roaming the CBD smoking pot. I called the police everytime and it eventually stopped. Did I have anything to do with it? I doubt it but I'd like to think maybe I did.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

..not to mention the hit that property value takes when HUNDREDS of these people are concentrated in one small area.  Not only are current owners affected by the devaluation of property value (from the late 70s onward), but the city as a whole is affected.  Lower property value = lower tax amount collected by the city.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Can I ask a really dumb question? Why is it so important that the Drop In Center stay in OTR?

Not sure why it is important, but they do plan on staying, and there is no realistic, viable proposal for them to move. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I call the cops everytime I  see something in my hood.  Got some Ho's  busted and busted a guy for peeing on the sidewalk.  I told him my dog doesn't even pee on the sidewalk, because she doesn't want to step in it  :-D

^ :lol:

 

I guess it does make sense in being strict when it comes these type of crimes.  Giuliani cleaned up New York by cracking down on the small crimes that affect quality of life. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I call the cops everytime I  see something in my hood. I have 765-1212 on speedial.  :-D

 

I was wondering what that non-emergency number was 'cause I wanted to call it the other day when I saw a guy peeing in Piatt Park on my walk to the gym but I didn't have it on my cell phone.  He was sitting down on one of the benches, fly unzipped, exposed, doing his business in an arching stream. I just didn't need or want to see that and it pissed me off - pun intended.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Can I ask a really dumb question? Why is it so important that the Drop In Center stay in OTR?

Not sure why it is important, but they do plan on staying, and there is no realistic, viable proposal for them to move. 

 

It depends on who's definition of realistic and viable you're talking about.  The DIC has a very narrow set of demands, which narrows down to they want to stay here and most people want them somewhere else.  The obvious location is Queensgate, near to downtown and on bus lines, but no residents other than the jail.  I don't believe a specific proposal has ever been floated for this location, though.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Can I ask a really dumb question? Why is it so important that the Drop In Center stay in OTR?

 

The Drop Inn Center would be able to provide the same services in many Cincinnati Neighborhoods.  The reason it refuses to move is simple:  If the Drop Inn Center moves, it looses visibility.  Buddy Gray opened the center between City Hall and Music Hall so it would be visible.  The Drop Inn Center is not just a homeless shelter.  It has been the focal point of a political movement.  By being positioned at this strategic location, the Center can easily get to the negotiating table.  In the past, Gray's group would get to the negotiating table, take a hard lined approach, and end up getting paid off by council.  Only recently has the political movement begun to loose clout.  Under Gray's leadership, the group was able to block 'gentrification' in the late 70's/early 80's.  This strategic position continues to provide a public forum to push their agenda.  If the Drop Inn Center moves, it will loose visibility, funding, and political sway.

 

I believe that publicity should be used against them.  They do not focus on the recovery of homeless alcoholic.  They focus on housing them.  Those who live in the center (err Washington Park before dark) are not the poor who need public transit.  They are transients who are looking for a place to get drunk and stay for free.  For us as a society to offer them Washington Park is a bit extreme in my view.  I am not against rehabilitation for people who need/want it in the neighborhood.  I am against offering up a what would be the city's best park to them.  The media exposed RESTOC years ago and they need to now focus on the Drop INN Center.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

^They do have a recovery program.  Not really sure what the expose' would expose.  I mean they are a homeless shelter, what do you expect?  Similar places exist all over the country.  I would agree that the location is debatable, but no other neighborhood will want them either, and they have invested money into their current site.  Every other location would have severe hurdles, even queensgate.  On top of that, they own their site and do not desire to move.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

^They do have a recovery program.  Not really sure what the expose' would expose.  I mean they are a homeless shelter, what do you expect?  Similar places exist all over the country.  I would agree that the location is debatable, but no other neighborhood will want them either, and they have invested money into their current site.  Every other location would have severe hurdles, even queensgate.  On top of that, they own their site and do not desire to move.

 

I think that it can expose a failed model.  The Drop Inn Center has never made recovery a requirement.  When alcoholics are permitted to openly drink and abuse drugs directly in front of the center, there is flaw in the model that you are using.  I believe that the leadership of the center are good-hearted, but the model is clearly not working.

As far as moving is concerned, there has to be a study or two on how to best handle this type of situation.  The goal is to find a way to best help the homeless.  My logic would lead me to believe that a geographically distributed system would be a better solution.  For example, a number of smaller shelters in more diverse locations along the bus line.  I would think that this would minimize the inherent risks (crime, property value devaluation) as well as provide a more viable exit strategy for those 'graduating' from the program.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Last year City Beat ran an article about Operation Vortex in Over-the-Rhine.  Here is a quote from the article:

 

"According to Cincinnati Police Department records, 286 individuals with the Drop Inn Center address have been arrested this year so far," says Pat Clifford, general coordinator of the homeless shelter. "However, Drop Inn Center records show that only 93 of them had, in fact, been residents during that time period. Therefore over 67 percent of those arrested with our address were not really our residents."

 

Only 93 of their residents had been charged with committing crimes over a five month period? 

 

With that type of philosophy, could the Drop Inn Center be prosecuted under RICO statutes?  [EDIT: It should be noted that the number of crimes quoted in the story were from 2006.  The number for this year could be significantly different.]

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Does anyone know how shelters in other cities work, how big they are, where they are located?

Also, if anyone knows, what is their proximity to schools.  How is this treated by law if a sexual offender is residing in one of these shelters and is within the banned dist. to a school, are they considered a resident?  And even if they are, and the school is built next to a shelter, is the shelter considered a pre-existing condition and therefore exempt?

 

I have no idea,

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I wonder if I'm alone in thinking this, but ...

 

 

Have any of you driven by the new SCPA construction site off of Central Pkwy and noticed all of the dirt turned and thought, "I would love to go out there and look around for old artifacts"?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Have any of you driven by the new SCPA construction site off of Central Pkwy and noticed all of the dirt turned and thought, "I would love to go out there and look around for old artifacts"?

 

I will now!  :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I did notice a few days ago that they had old boilers, pipes, foundations stones etc... all piled up.  But they are moving very quickly and hauling it all away.  Kinda sad to see an alley dissapear like that too.  They seem to be concentrating on the NW corner.  I think there was a school at the SW corner, so that foundation may still be there too.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Restore formatting

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...