Cincinnati Streetcar / The Connector News

[UncleRando]

Well..here is some news from the 1/24/07 City Council Minutes:

 

APPOINTMENT, dated 1/10/2007, submitted by Mayor Mallory, recommending the appointment of Mr. John Schneider to the Cincinnati Planning Commission. Mr. Schneider is a founding member of Downtown Cincinnati, Inc., and currently chairs the Alliance for Regional Transit. Mr. Schneider will serve a 5-year term, which will expire on January 31, 2012.

 

Congratulations John!!!!

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

[John Schneider]

 

Congratulations John!!!!

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

 

Thanks. I told Mayor Mallory that there are plenty of people in this city pitching wider roads and bigger parking lots. I said I want to stick up for the pedestrian and walkable communities where people can fulfill more of their needs closer to home. I left the interview with certainty that he's going to make good city planning a priority around here again.

[Neville]

Wow, It's great to hear that city council and the mayor are beginning to make good decisions. It's been quite a while since that happened.

 

Congrats John!

[ColDayMan]

 

Congratulations John!!!!

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

 

Thanks. I told Mayor Mallory that there are plenty of people in this city pitching wider roads and bigger parking lots. I said I want to stick up for the pedestrian and walkable communities where people can fulfill more of their needs closer to home. I left the interview with certainty that he's going to make good city planning a priority around here again.

 

Huge congratulations!!!

[CiNYC]

Indeed, congratulations!  This is fantastic news.

[Maximillian]

Congrats John!! Being a huge supporter of pedestrian/bike friendly communities it is great to know you are on board.  Yay for Streetcars and public steps!

[xumelanie]

Congrats John!

[BallHatGuy]

Congrats John!

[ink]

Congrats Cincinnati!

[John Schneider]

Well, lookee here ...

 

http://citybeat.wordpress.com/2007/01/25/sorta-board-steppingstone-for-qualls/

[exurbkid]

This seems to be moving in all the right directions

[thomasbw]

^^hell yeah!

[cincinnatizach]

^I feel hopeful too!

[cramer]

It seems like the downtown route is positioned to be Phase I of the system. Would Phase II be an Uptown circulator, or would it be the physical link to Uptown? I'm trying to understand how this all shakes out, and I'd gladly settle for some speculation or informed opinion today rather than wait for solid answers in April.

 

I think the crosstown route from Madison, to MLK, to Clifton, to Ludlow, to Hamilton would be really transformative. John, do you have any insight as to whether this is on the table?

 

Oh, and congrats on the appointment.

[John Schneider]

Thanks.

 

I agree a crosstown route would be fantastic and could probably stand on its own without necessarily having to rely on downtown as a generator and attractor of ridership. But here's the problem: there will have to be a "shops and yards" facility somewhere, and it will likely be on the edge of downtown, probably somewhere under one of the bridges, say. So how do you get crosstown steetcars that don't connect with downtown back to where they want to spend the night and have to be worked on? You wouldn't want to have to build and staff two of them. Ponder that for a minute.

 

I think the Uptown connection wants to happen on the west side of UC and maybe run as far as Northside, though that's beginning to get outside the range of a streetcar. To me, Ludlow sometimes seems more like downtown than downtown does these days, and you'd defintely want to get as far as Clifton and Ludlow. I think the most important decision our city will have to make -- even more important than which streets the downtown alignment uses -- is whether we eventually go up Clifton or Vine Street. Vine Street is a wasteland between the bottom and top of the hill; there's not much there, not could there be. Clifton Heights has gobs of housing without parking and many transit-dependent residents. If Clifton Avenue in front of UC doesn't look like a streetcar street, I don't know what does.

 

Lately, I've begun to think we ought to take the alignment straight up the Clifton hill at the end of Elm Street and onto West Clifton somewhere west of the sharp bend, saving a lot of meandering and congestion around the Five Points intersection. I bet what you'd save in track and electrification going all the way down Clifton to Vine Street would pay for this. Not to mention the two or three minutes of running time you'd gain. Clifton Heights, which has no grocery, would suddenly be a five-minute ride from Findlay.

 

It's probably a 15% grade, but I suspect that could be achieved with some sort of cog railway like you see in Switzerland. Just guessing -- Jake, jump in here.

 

By the way, if a cog railway would work, I'd run the next line up Sycamore Hill and Auburn. Imagine that.

[Guest jmecklenborg]

Here are some images of Lisbon's old cable system, these all appear to be steeper than 10%.  My guess is that a stock streetcar could be hauled by a cable for part of a run and given the pantograph visible in the photo below I think that is what happens on these lines in Lisbon.  I'm not sure if cars can share the road with a cog railway, and obviously that equipment would have to all be custom manufactured. 

 

 

 

Here is a brief description of Lisbon's old lines:

http://www.streetcar.org/ppf/present/lisbon/index.html

 

 

 

[cramer]

I'd never even heard of a cog railway.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rack_railway

 

So, if we run a rack and adhesion system up Clifton, would the transition be seamless? I imagine that the car would slow, just as it would going up hill anyway. But would a stop be necessary to engage the rack drive?

 

Seems like fitting cars for that line to be dual driven wouldn't be too costly for the access it provides.

[cramer]

^It does seem like the cog railway would be more disruptive to auto traffic, you're right.

 

A third rail with teeth would be particularly treacherous to those of us getting around on two wheels.

[Guest jmecklenborg]

Another pair of shots of Lisbon's streetcars:

 

 

 

And here are some shots from 2005 I have of some locations relevant to the streetcars, I'll take some pics of the Clifton Ave. hill sometime soon.

 

The Sycamore St. Hill:

 

Vine St. through Over-the-Rhine:

 

View from Clifton Ave. intersection south on Vine:

[Jimmy Skinner]

Lately, I've begun to think we ought to take the alignment straight up the Clifton hill at the end of Elm Street and onto West Clifton somewhere west of the sharp bend, saving a lot of meandering and congestion around the Five Points intersection.

Wow that would be fantastic.

[CiNYC]

So how do you get crosstown steetcars that don't connect with downtown back to where they want to spend the night and have to be worked on? You wouldn't want to have to build and staff two of them. Ponder that for a minute.

 

Connect it to the North/South line @ UC.

[thomasbw]

http://www.uc.edu/facmgmt/PDF/BTSDaytimeSchedule.pdf

 

UC operates a large fleet of shuttles for the students at I'm sure a large expense.  If you have a north south line that goes up clifton ave past UC to corryville (short vine) and a east west line that runs from ludlow past the medical campus.  You have essentially eliminated the need for these shuttles (except maybe part of the blue line arround riddle).  So you say to UC, "hey instead of you paying all this money for the shuttle busses, students can ride free on the streetcar if they show a valid id from 8 to 6 monday-friday, and you can give us the money instead to help defray operating expenses.  BAM! everyone is happy, you get free money, uc students get to ride a safe streetcar and the streetcar lines spur development in the area, decreasing crime.

[Guest jmecklenborg]

John, I think this is along the lines of what you were describing:

 

 

Given this alignment, the switchback hillside route is only shorter by about 500-800ft. depending on how the line would be routed through the 5-way intersection, however with a ramp starting just north of Henry St. and bridge over McMicken St. another 500ft. is saved and a much lower grade can be achieved.  The 1960's era apartment building at the corner is in the way, but I can't imagine the value of this building is over $500,000 and of course the line can simply be routed around it.   

 

If anyone else has seen the topographic mapping site I talked about in an earlier post please pass along the URL.  On this site you could click anywhere in the world and it gave the elevation instantly.  Offhand I'd guess the elevation changed between McMicken and the Clifton Ave. bend is 100ft. but I could easily be off by 50ft.

 

 

[thomasbw]

Running the line from straight up Elm directly to W. Clifton would be great, from google earth it looks like you might even be able to do it without destroying anything.  If you could run the line through the parking lot of clifton view aparments it would be a straight shot. If you look at the hamilton county auditor's map you can see there are two large parcells that are almost contigious that you would need to acquire or at least purchase easments for.  The value of the parcels is 17k and 25k respectively, but there is this little sliver where the auditor says no records found between them or no parcel identified.  Interesting.

 

Post Script: Well jmeck beat me to that by about the three minutes it took me to research and type my post.

[thomasbw]

The 1960's era apartment building at the corner is in the way, but I can't imagine the value of this building is over $500,000 and of course the line can simply be routed around it.    

 

Auditor puts the value at $729,000, and another 30k for the parking lot.  It was constructed in 1966, good guess.

[thomasbw]

If the elevations in Google Earth are anything that resemble accurate, then the grade of a straight shot, starting where the bridge over mcmicken is in the map three posts up bypassing the parking lot just to the right is about 15.5% (If I am correct in my math and grade is rise/run x 100) 87 ft / 558 ft= .155

[BallHatGuy]

If the north/south streetcar should be either in the same street or one block apart then I think the route should be northbound on Vine and southbound on Race.  Is the concensus that Elm & Race is better?  I just like the idea of the streetcar at Fountain Square I guess.

[John Schneider]

First, an apology. I misunderstood the proposal to run from Clifton to Hyde Park to be an alternative to running from Clifton to Downtown. But sure, if you do both, you can get the streetcar to wherever the shops are downtown. I don't think this route is on the table, but you should get it into the mill. I'd write to Michael Moore, City of Cincinnati Architect, who is running the study. I think several groups are making suggestions for the routes they'd like to see in the first or later phases, so he won't be offended.

 

Jake, what would we do without you? Would you mind calculating the slope via the switchback up the hill? I think the bridge over McMicken is a great idea, maybe the key idea, here. We'd have to consider the effect on Elm Street buildings as it would have to start rising somewhere south of McMicken to gain enough height to clear McMicken. The bridge would enable us to attack the hill at a higher starting point, but I'm not so sure I'd like this in front of my building. Maybe if it were in the center of the street, and maybe only a single track, it would be OK. Maybe the shops and yards could be on the sites facing the bridge. Can you imagine the approach coming downtown from Clifton? It would be dramatic.

 

Looking at Jake's map, it's clear this is a big operational improvement over the street running on Findlay, Vine and Clifton. It would save a lot of time and aggravation. If it pencils out, it's a breakthrough.

 

I don't think we can get on Vine through OTR unless it reverts to one-way traffic. I doubt the traffic engineers will allow it on Vine downtown. They say there are too many buses and too many parking garage entries. They would never even talk about putting light rail on Vine, and they had some problems with Walnut as part of a Walnut/Main couplet for LRT. Just a side note: some original thinkers in our city's transportation department would like to reverse the directions of Vine and Walnut from Clifton all the way through The Banks to line up a cleaner approach to the Roebling Bridge. So far, they've not been able to move this idea, but I think it's interesting.

 

Another bit of counterintuitive streetcar reasoning: you might choose not to go to Fountain Square simply because it is so nice and has such great prospects already. That project has a certain amount of momentum, and Vine Street has few vacant sites to TIF. Better to put it where you've got vacant sites with low tax bases. Building on these sites will throw off more TIF than running the streetcar through a built-up area. It's kind of like that old baseball saying, "Hit 'em where they ain't." Look at the views of the Vine Street Hill compared to Sycamore Hill. See what I mean?

 

One personal note. My first apartment was the Clifton South Apartments at the sharp bend. If it goes, I guess it's a small price to pay for a streetcar.

 

Love the Lisbon cars.

 

 

[TraderJake]

If the elevations in Google Earth are anything that resemble accurate, then the grade of a straight shot, starting where the bridge over mcmicken is in the map three posts up bypassing the parking lot just to the right is about 15.5% (If I am correct in my math and grade is rise/run x 100) 87 ft / 558 ft= .155

 

I'd just like to point out that the slope and apartment complex you are inspecting have a storied history as to why that slope is currently brush. This link has a picture of the same hill right after a major landslide occurred during the 1950s. It would be wise, while determining that climb up the hill, to also take in to account that the hill is extremely slide prone, and if built on would more than likely need some serious stabilization work. I'm not saying that it would necessarily be impossible to place a track on that hill, but it could be quite an engineering challenge, and could be deemed impractical.

 

 

[Eigth and State]

 

  ^---- That landslide was said to be caused by the landlord placing material on the side of the hill for fill for a parking lot. Ironically, he did this because the city ordered him to provide off street parking.

 

    Also, the stone structure in the upper right corner was formerly a pier for the Belleview Hill inclined plane. This site already has a history of transit!

 

 

[Guest jmecklenborg]

I guess the Google Earth elevations were on there the whole time but I never noticed.  If these numbers are correct the hill gets much steeper north of the bend.   

 

 

Both the direct route and the switchback are 1,000 feet from the Henry St. intersection give or take fifty feet, making the grade calculations obvious (although the max grade would be slightly steeper than the average grade, meaning the bulk of the direct route would be 10.5 or 11% depending on how gradual the transitions are).  For the severely math impaired, we're looking at something like maximum grades of 11% for the direct route or 8% for the switchback give or take.  Also, the ramp could be moved south all the way to Findlay St. if a shallower grade is needed, but I don't think it is.  Elm St., like almost all of the downtown streets, is 66ft. between property lines, meaning a 25ft. wide ramp allows for 11.5ft. lanes on either side assuming 8ft. sidewalks.  I can't remember what those buildings on that block look like but I think they're warehouses. 

 

I agree, this might be the "missing link" for a Clifton Ave. route, not only cutting down real distance but psychological distance as well, which is actually more important.  With the hillside route and bridge over McMicken there would be no traffic lights or stop signs between Calhoun St. and Findlay St., a distance of exactly a mile.  Averaging 20mph that's 3 minutes, approximately a 2 minute time savings over an at-grade route through the 5-points intersection.  The important thing to keep in mind about saving time is that at some point an entire vehicle is saved by having a quicker line, a huge capital and operational savings (two or three full-time employees per streetcar).           

 

 

[CiNYC]

I just made a high res aerial of the Calhoun/Mcmillan Corridor from Clifton to Vine for a project.  I'd post it, but I use photobucket which would really decrease the quality.

 

If anyone's interested in having it to draw up some ideas for a possible transit center or whatever in that area, just let me know where I can store it.

[CiNYC]

Here's the low quality version:

 

[RiverViewer]

The only problem is that right now that whole area is a cluster when it comes to traffic, especially with all the school busses that arrive at rush hour for Hughes

 

Yeah, my wife and I would refer to the occasional "busterf***" when there would be three busses on Clifton, all leapfrogging each other trying to get through the lights...but with all that space to the right cleared for the on-hold Calhoun Street projects, you'd think maybe something could be worked out there for an off-street turnaround...

 

[thomasbw]

actually I was thinking that clifton ave northbound between calhoon and mcmillan is two way but hardly anyone uses it because it is only people traveling eastbound on mcmillan that turn onto northbound clifton.  I was thinking you could get rid of the onstreet parking right there, only about four spots, and have the streetcar run against traffic with some kind of wall or barrier to prevent cars from colliding head on [then again the cars would be running over rails, so they would have to at least consider the possibility that could occur]

 

Upon further reflection, the streetcar might need to turn right on mcmillan, a left on a side street and then a left on calhoon, finally a left back on to clifton an down the hill.

[byrnepj]

This is a comment on the funding issue..........Can't the city use the 35 million it will get from the City of Blue Ash to fund the starter line??  Wouldn't it make since to use these proceeds for this purpose??

[thomasbw]

It sure would make sense, but I doubt it will happen.  I think the funds are earmarked for neighborhood development funds.

[UncleRando]

ahhh...don't we all love that different colored money!

[byrnepj]

Isn't one of the ideas/results of a streetcar system, further neighborhood development???  I bet starting a streetcar system, even though the route will be contained to 1-3 neighborhoods, will bring about more economic development for the city than diving up the 37mil to the various neighborhoods. 

 

Shouldn't the focus be what will bring more total economic development to the CITY and not the individual neighborhoods?? 

[thomasbw]

it should be, but then again reality gets in the way.

[StuFoote]

This may have already been posted, but I spotted this today on an e-newsletter I get called Progressive Railroading:

 

1/30/2007    Streetcar

 

HDR to determine feasibility of streetcars in Cincinnati

 

The city of Cincinnati recently contracted architectural, engineering and consulting firm HDR Inc. to study the feasibility of operating streetcars to link the city’s riverfront and downtown business district with local neighborhoods.

 

HDR will examine streetcar alignments, and determine projected construction and operating costs, ridership forecasts, estimated economic development benefits and potential financing. The study is expected to be complete in May.

 

http://www.progressiverailroading.com/prdailynews/news.asp?id=10139

[Progamer]

They should just go ahead with streetcars.  Even with adjustments its still feasible and it could serve many communities and the nearby universities all at once.  Of course I have to agree with thomas, reality will get in the way.

[John Schneider]

I dunno. The last thing the streetcar needs is fifty neighborhoods thinking it is taking money away from them.

[jdm00]

John,

 

Just out of curiosity, what has been the reaction (if any) from the folks at UC or other points uptown (e.g., Xavier)?  Just wondering if there are people out there agitating for a larger initial streetcar line willing to get behind it. 

 

 

[Mr. Anderson]

I dunno. The last thing the streetcar needs is fifty neighborhoods thinking it is taking money away from them.

 

I think I see your point...if this project moves forward as I hope it does**fingers & toes crossed while clinching rabbit's foot** it should be funded like any other city transportation project and not announced to the world as a project that is taking $$$ away from neighborhoods or heaven forbid - public safety.

[John Schneider]

John,

 

Just out of curiosity, what has been the reaction (if any) from the folks at UC or other points uptown (e.g., Xavier)?  Just wondering if there are people out there agitating for a larger initial streetcar line willing to get behind it. 

 

 

 

I know people have contacted the city administration about the first line's being more than just downtown. The head of the Uptown Consortium, Tony Brown, is with the program. Other than downtown, Xavier has the best location in the region to benefit from rail transit, and they are very aware of this.

 

[Simon]

Thanks.

 

I agree a crosstown route would be fantastic and could probably stand on its own without necessarily having to rely on downtown as a generator and attractor of ridership. But here's the problem: there will have to be a "shops and yards" facility somewhere, and it will likely be on the edge of downtown, probably somewhere under one of the bridges, say. So how do you get crosstown steetcars that don't connect with downtown back to where they want to spend the night and have to be worked on? You wouldn't want to have to build and staff two of them. Ponder that for a minute.

 

By the way, if a cog railway would work, I'd run the next line up Sycamore Hill and Auburn. Imagine that.

 

John, what about the old trolley garage at Dorchester and Highland?? Currently a car barn, it's a great old structure that could house a repair shop minutes from downtown and uptown and eden park actually.

 

I think Sycamore Hill to Auburn makes a lot of sense and incorporates Christ and Hamilton County Services on the way to UC. But as an aside, what about up Liberty Hill to Highland then on to UC, following an old trolley/current bus route?? (edited to say, nevermind, there's no direct easterly approach to Liberty Hill from Liberty, which would make tracks an issue I assume).

[John Schneider]

They seem to be focused on having the car barn downtown, and it has to be if the first leg is confined to there. I doubt the neighbors would want a semi-industrial operation next door, plus the entering and leaving of streetcars could really hold up traffic on what is a very narrow street already. You'd also need parking for the staff.

 

Liberty Hill to Highland makes sense -- certainly easier to climb than Sycamore. I don't think you'd have any problem making the turn from eastbound Liberty to Liberty Hill. If a bus can do it, a streetcar can do it.

[Eigth and State]

 

  "You'd also need parking for the staff."

 

    Oh, the irony. I am in favor of streetcars or light rail as much as the next guy, but gee, what kind of message does it convey when the streetcar drivers and mechanics have to drive to work?  :|

[Jimmy Skinner]

John, what about the old trolley garage at Dorchester and Highland?? Currently a car barn, it's a great old structure that could house a repair shop minutes from downtown and uptown and eden park actually.

There is a project in the works to put condos there.  There is a thread somewhere on this board about it.

 

I think upper Elm area offers the best possibilities for car barn.