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Cleveland: Population Trends

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and you act like the PD will write a positive article about this?

 

(under the idea that the only reason people get doom and gloom is because the PD writes its annual doom and gloom article based on census estimates)

 

No but there are other media outlets and urbanohio!

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i know you are being slightly facetious, but we obviously don't have the same reach as the PD (duh!).

 

But those who read this forum know that cleveland ain't the downward spiraling shithole that sometimes the PD makes it out to be.

 

Instead its Joe Medina and Susy Solon who do read the PD and aside from the occasional tribe game, that's the source of their exposure and news about cleveland.

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i know you are being slightly facetious, but we obviously don't have the same reach as the PD (duh!).

 

But those who read this forum know that cleveland ain't the downward spiraling shithole that sometimes the PD makes it out to be.

 

Instead its Joe Medina and Susy Solon who do read the PD and aside from the occasional tribe game, that's the source of their exposure and news about cleveland.

 

Yes but in all seriousness, if the (local) pr strategy was at work, the PD wouldn't be printing one sided "doom and gloom" stories.  That why I stated there are other media outlets and the internet to get the point accross to NE ohioians.

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No new info, but interesting info and projections.

 

It looks better at the link: http://www.fairus.org/site/PageServer?pagename=research_research05d5_sup

 

 

Metro Area Factsheet: Cleveland-Akron, Ohio CMSA

 

 

 

Summary Metro Area Data (and Source)

Population (2005 CB est.): 2,931,775

Population (2000 Census): 2,945,831

Foreign-born Population (2005 FAIR est.): 152,025

 

Foreign-born Population (2000 Census): 135,397

 

Share Foreign Born (2005 FAIR est.): 5.2%

 

Share Foreign Born (2000 Census): 4.6%

 

Immigrant Stock (2000 CPS): 334,000

 

Share Immigrant Stock (2000 est.): 10.8%

 

Immigrant Settlement 1991-98 (INS): 27,518

 

Population Projection 2025 (FAIR): 3,172,000

 

 

MUCH MORE AT:

http://www.fairus.org/site/PageServer?pagename=research_research05d5_sup

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Not that it matters, but I was wondering how Cincinnati caught up with Cleveland so fast in MSA population when in 2000 Cleveland was at 2,250,000 and Cincinnati was at 1,9XX,000. I found out Ashtabula county and its 110,000 residents were taken out of Cleveland's MSA, which reduced us to the current 2,114,000, ten thousand above Cincinnati. Damn commute patterns.

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^It seems like there's more new development going up in Cleveland than Cinci. I thought Cleveland's MSA included Akron.

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At one point before the current definitions were defined they were considered part of the same CMSA, but now they are two different MSAs that with the Ashtabula Micropolitan Statistical area, form the Cleveland-Akron CSA, it might become one MSA in 2010 as the current percentage commuting between Summit and Cuyahoga is 13% and you need 15% to merge two MSAs into one.

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Our shrinking city looks down the road

Sunday, August 19, 2007

Olivera Perkins and Tom BreckenridgePlain Dealer Reporters

 

Tecora Gray is the last resident standing on Crowell Avenue.

 

When Gray and her family moved there in 1951, about 15 houses crammed the short street, and 50 filled her corner of the Kinsman neighborhood. Now, there are four: Gray's, the vacant one next door and two occupied houses on neighboring East 78th Street.

 

For seven years, Gray has been Crowell's only resident. At the rear of her property, Greater Cleveland Regional Transit Authority trains, packed with rush-hour commuters, break the desolation as they rumble along...

 

 

 

To reach these Plain Dealer reporters:

operkins@plaind.com, 216-999-4868 tbreckenridge

 

http://www.cleveland.com/news/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/cuyahoga/118751284465640.xml&coll=2&thispage=1

 

 

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Also a comment on the above article from Cleveland.com:

I read a lot of new "buzz words" in this article: redlining, exurbia, national laboratory, transitional/fragile.

 

This is your government at work again. The one question that I continued to ask while reading the article--which was nicely done--is who controls all of these federal housing dollars? Even more importantly, why are we using federal dollars to continue pretending a change is possible in some of these neighborhoods?

 

Mayor Jackson may not wish to accept that Cleveland is going to continue to shrink but he better. Nothing personal against the mayor, but he has no clue how to right this decline. No one else does either.

 

We can turn the city into a "national laboratory" and throw buzz words all over the place....then wait until the time is right and we will "self proclaim" success without a single tangible measure.

 

This time will be different. It is clear the inner-ring suburbs are now fighting the new "buzz word" exurbia. Who creates these words? As someone who has studied and worked in public administration, I find them shockingly inaccurate and useless semantics.

 

The best approach today is to quietly return the city to moderate mixed use. Demolish the abandoned homes and factories. Turn some of the factories into updated warehousing or stabilized mothballs. If it's cheaper to simply leave the building up, then throw paint on it and re-furbish the old signs. Make it look decent and leave it standing.

 

Put money into beautification that creates jobs and thins the city out in a natural manner. The older populations in the Kinsman area may not be ready to move or may not be able to afford it. That's fine. As they move and/or pass on, it is the city's responsibility to cultivate something nice in its place.

 

The best legacy the next several city administrations could leave is a beautifully re-defined city. Accept the shrinkage and work to bring back corporate headquarters and the like.

 

Unfortunately, all we ever read is denial. The city and county administrations are interested in tax revenues and personal pride.

 

A city does not "redline" as it is not a living, breathing entity. To accept that is to accept a ruse that only furthers the pace of decline.

 

It's not difficult to envision a "new Cleveland" that is below 300,000 in population. It could be a beautiful city with planned mixed use and icons of the past that represent the great contributions the city and its former residents have made to America.

 

 

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These are not new terms (exurbia, redlining, etc). They exist to define human actions which caused the decline of cities, which are the result of the creativity and will of humans.

 

Contrary to your belief, Person, there are many clues how to rebuild a city. For the most part, cities don't decline because of some unpreventable act of nature, just as their revival doesn't happen by chance either. What prevents their revival is a lack of awareness, or creativity or unwillingness to take the steps necessary to foster it. When immersed in what appears to be massive, multifaceted variety of unsolvable problems, they overwhelm and cause many to retreat. But if you pull your mind back from them and view them in their totality, you can get your mind around them.

 

Here's my view of solutions (and many of these are problems the city/region/state aren't willing to do):

 

> If your metro area isn't growing in population but is growing in land area, and you don't like the side effects of this (the progressive outward movement of blight and distress that chases the urban fringe), you have two choices -- limit the outward growth through an urban growth boundary or increase immigration to your metro area. The world added 50 million people per year in the 20th century, a rate of population growth that is continuing, often in some impoverished areas of the world. Say what you want about Cleveland's economy, but it offers more opportunity and quality of life than places on earth where much population growth is happening. Go to the U.S. immigration gateways (often cities with higher costs of living than Cleveland) and market Cleveland to them. Provide supportive services locally to enable immigrants to assimilate and thrive here.

 

> Build and operate business incubators. Don't try to get companies to relocate here. History shows us, including here in Cleveland, that economic drivers weren't brought to a city, they were grown there (Standard Oil, Cleveland Cliffs, Eaton, Jones Day, Steris, Progressive, etc). If you want to empower creativity, innovation and economic growth, remove barriers to starting up and growing businesses. Provide facilities in neighborhoods that offer office, laboratory, workshop spaces at below-market rents with sharing of receptionist, database, copying functions. Tie the incubators to local educational/career development services like the Corporate College as well as to networking conferences with larger, more established businesses.

 

Remember, the primary function of a city is a meeting/market place place where goods, services and ideas are exchanged. If you're not creating new goods, services or ideas, or don't have market places for vendors to interface, then your city is failing at its most basic function and reason for existing.

 

> How can a city be safe place for its citizens when its citizens don't take responsibility? Taking responsibility for one's own actions isn't limited to avoiding committing offenses, but to policing one's own neighborhood. The most effective neighborhoods police themselves -- neighbors communicate with each other, get to know each other and look out for each other. The police aren't there to mediate disagreements between neighbors, be proactive in stopping crime before it happens, or discipline the children of irresponsible parents. The police are the last line of defense for when a neighborhood's self-policing efforts fail. And, when a citizen has a job, they have more at stake and more to lose and will be more likely to consider the consequences of their actions. Former Mayor Mike White did a lot of things wrong, but one of the smartest things he said was "the best social program is a job." Same goes if they have a sense of faith (either through organized religion or other spirituality). They may have a "morality switch" flipped on in their head that might also cause them to consider the consequences of their actions.

 

Time constraints prevent me from listing more aspects to reviving a city. But the city is a living, breathing thing. It may not be organic in a biological sense, but it is organic in that it can live or die, be wounded, become obese with sprawl and suffer cancers of blight. It has arteries, brains, and bones. It eats and shits. And, unlike most organic things, a city can live forever.


"Life is 10% what happens to you and 90% how you respond." -- Coach Lou Holtz

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KJP, I'm not sure those are person's views. He was just posting what was already online at cleveland.com. Unless he is Arby63.

 

You do make good points though, or should I say counter points.

 

Here are the graphics from the pd. Can somebody explain to me how the population riversid has actually gone up 6% since 1950.

 

http://www.cleveland.com/news/wide/clevepop081907.jpg

 

http://www.cleveland.com/news/wide/kinsmanmap081907.jpg

 

http://www.cleveland.com/census/

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The tree farm idea sounds good in that it will save the city money in the long run and will create jobs.  Hopefully oneday this area can be revitalized, but I think that will only happen after more visable areas like downtown and the midtown corridors are on their way 'back."

 

I can see how Riverside gained population, as all the outer most neighborhoods seem to have gained population, maybe because they are considered the safest. The way they are built, they are certainly more suburban than other parts of Cleveland.

 

The pop declines in central and surroundings reflect how the areas look aesthetically. Go thru there and it looks like a bomb went off, which it did, albeit economic. This is the core of the area I think needs to be rebuilt first. Folks from around the world leave downtown on their way to the Clinic and University Circle and are welcomed by disaster. That's not a good look.

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sheesh. this is why people from other parts of the state scratch their heads at the attitudes of ne ohioans. its all within recent memory....if not ourselves than of our family members. i dont think anyone anywhere has to hear so much, "you should have seen this neighborhood back when..." as we do (except detroiters).

 

the tree lawn tree farm is a great idea tho.

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That still does not make sense. Riverside is mostly land owned by Hopkins. Hopkins has grown considerably since the 50s. How can the population grow 6% with less land - NEAR AN AIRPORT!

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If that were the case, yes. But I have seen many homes, mostly of the low-income tier, be torn down and reclaimed by nature or business parks in the name of noise abatement.

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Not sure. Cleveland bought or annexed part of Brookpark which had 300+ homes. Were those counted before they were demolished?

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I think that using Kinsman as an example of how to shrink Cleveland is highly misleading.  There are very residential parts of Cleveland where the land has reverted to wilderness over a large enough area to make this strategy effective, and Kinsman may be the only one left.  Central and Hough were the other two neighborhoods where this sort of urban prairie/forestland existed, and much of that has been recently redeveloped with housing, or will be soon.  I don't see that this strategy is really very cross applicable.

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Riverside and Puritas Longmead have gained in population because much of it was lightly developed in 1950. I have a picture of Grayton Road north of Brookpark Road in the early 1960s. It was a dirt road and ran through a largely rural area. I've also seen an aerial from the mid-1960s of I-71 being built in the vicinity of West 150th Street. Homes were still being built in that area, even that late.

 

But the older the home/neighborhood, the more likely it is in distress because we as a city, state and nation have adopted a throwaway mentality. We increasingly look at second-hand homes like we look at second-hand shoes. We don't repair them. We throw them away because we believe we can afford new ones that are status symbols, snazzier, fit better and, yes, safer.


"Life is 10% what happens to you and 90% how you respond." -- Coach Lou Holtz

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Oh, and by the way, how much is the 1950 population data in other neighborhoods affected by being at the midst of the baby boom?


"Life is 10% what happens to you and 90% how you respond." -- Coach Lou Holtz

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I posted that comment from Cleveland.com because I thought it was an interesting read. I agree with some parts, but not all. And no, I am not Arby.

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That article has me bummed. If I was less committed to the city, I would have my desire to move to another metro area reinforced. When is the PD going to balance its coverage with the good things happening? An incessant psychological beating from articles like that is going to put PD readers into a depression if they aren't already. Who wants to be part of a city that has no exciting future? I know of the good things underway and on the horizon because I come to this site, but most Greater Clevelanders don't. All they read and see is constant negativity.


"Life is 10% what happens to you and 90% how you respond." -- Coach Lou Holtz

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One of the things the article on Kinsman neglected to mention is that the trees grown in Lake County sometimes have a difficult time adjusting to urban conditions. 

 

There are a lot of projects in the pipeline for Kinsman, one of which is the redevelopment of the Garden Valley Estates.  It's going to be the largest project ever undertaken by CMHA, will cost around $100 million, and take an estimated 5 years.  Some of relocation has already occurred, and the first demolition of several of the units is expected to happen in the spring.  The plan also calls for a new Anton Grdina K-8 school and a new YMCA, which aren't included in that $100 million.  There are rumblings that George Phillips of CMHA wants this project to be his legacy with the organization and what he wants to be remembered in Cleveland for.  And this is all outside of the CMHA headquarters and retail component anticipated for the Hemisphere site.

 

 

 

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One of the things the article on Kinsman neglected to mention is that the trees grown in Lake County sometimes have a difficult time adjusting to urban conditions. 

 

There are a lot of projects in the pipeline for Kinsman, one of which is the redevelopment of the Garden Valley Estates.  It's going to be the largest project ever undertaken by CMHA, will cost around $100 million, and take an estimated 5 years.  Some of relocation has already occurred, and the first demolition of several of the units is expected to happen in the spring.  The plan also calls for a new Anton Grdina K-8 school and a new YMCA, which aren't included in that $100 million.  There are rumblings that George Phillips of CMHA wants this project to be his legacy with the organization and what he wants to be remembered in Cleveland for.  And this is all outside of the CMHA headquarters and retail component anticipated for the Hemisphere site.

 

 

 

 

Good. Garden Valley is one of the most dangerous areas of this city in my opinion. What all are they going to do, just rebuild the complex, or spread them out throughout Cuyahoga county?

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That article has me bummed. If I was less committed to the city, I would have my desire to move to another metro area reinforced. When is the PD going to balance its coverage with the good things happening? An incessant psychological beating from articles like that is going to put PD readers into a depression if they aren't already. Who wants to be part of a city that has no exciting future? I know of the good things underway and on the horizon because I come to this site, but most Greater Clevelanders don't. All they read and see is constant negativity.

 

You know what I thought when I read that article? "Man, Cleveland's really in the crapper. Everybody's leaving. There's no hope."

 

I'm so sick and tired of the negativity spurred on by the PD's one-sidedness. I mean, COME ON!! Let's move on from this already! The way to get out of a negative spot isn't to WALLOW in it! If people don't have VISION, they will wallow in their self-pity/nearsightedness and progress will always be stifled where there is no vision. Let's MOVE FORWARD, PD! Stop being the stick in the mud, and have some faith in our region, for goodness sake!

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Hopefully the people that read that PD article spend time flipping through the huge Cleveland+ ad supplemental. It goes on about some of the things going on in NEO as well as businesses located here and everything. It really is a positive thing in the mist of all this negativity.

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One of the things the article on Kinsman neglected to mention is that the trees grown in Lake County sometimes have a difficult time adjusting to urban conditions. 

 

There are a lot of projects in the pipeline for Kinsman, one of which is the redevelopment of the Garden Valley Estates.  It's going to be the largest project ever undertaken by CMHA, will cost around $100 million, and take an estimated 5 years.  Some of relocation has already occurred, and the first demolition of several of the units is expected to happen in the spring.  The plan also calls for a new Anton Grdina K-8 school and a new YMCA, which aren't included in that $100 million.  There are rumblings that George Phillips of CMHA wants this project to be his legacy with the organization and what he wants to be remembered in Cleveland for.  And this is all outside of the CMHA headquarters and retail component anticipated for the Hemisphere site.

 

 

 

 

Good. Garden Valley is one of the most dangerous areas of this city in my opinion. What all are they going to do, just rebuild the complex, or spread them out throughout Cuyahoga county?

 

I don't think it's one of the most dangerous parts of the city.  It's just the perception that you and several other people have of it.

 

The plan is for the entire estates to be demolished and rebuilt a la Arbor Park (at the request of the residents, who drove the master plan).  Although only concpetual architecture has been completed to this point, it will be done townhouse-style, with separate front and rear doors for each unit, a private courtyards, etc.  CMHA is pushing the idea that no two blocks will look the same.

 

Residents have the option to relocate to another unit in Garden Valley or receive a housing choice voucher.  But if they leave, they have to reapply for a unit just like other non-residents.

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Maybe it's just me, but I look at this article is just another, typical scare/negative piece by the PD.  Consider:

 

- This is old news.  Cleveland didn’t just start losing population like, say, yesterday or even last year.  To jump up and down about it now just increases feelings of depression w/in locals.

 

- Why keep pointing to 1950?  Yes, that was our peak, but the city's economy was totally different then; America was different.  Cities like Cleveland were only beginning to experience suburbanization and we had only about 2 freeway stubs (Shoreway and Willow/now I-77 which barely pierced the city limits) to enhance this.  Suburban population was small and confined to -- what are now inner-ring suburbs -- relative to today.

 

- Kinsman is a BAD neighborhood to focus on.  Even though it had housing, its housing stock, even then, was weak and shoddy developer/worker housing compared to most neighborhoods, even such low/mod income hoods like Fairfax.  The article tends to ignore the affect of the change-over from heavy industry to light-industrial/service has had on Great Lakes cities like Cleveland.  What's more, the waste created by those factories, with the attendant brownfields, have made much of that area practically uninhabitable.  And we’re not even talking about those pesky back-hauling truckers who have illegally turned the neighborhood into a dumping ground.  Yes, there are other neighborhoods, like Mt. Pleasant, or Collinwood, that have issues that should be addressed.  But to hold up our weakest neighborhood with the weakest potential – one that's historically been that way for, at least for the past 50, 60 years, is totally disingenuous on the PD's part.

 

- What about the resettling of bombed out areas of neighborhoods like Hough which, until the 1980s (Lexington Village) and 90s, Chester McMansions, Beacon Place, new housing tracks that have gone in, was a decaying wasteland.  What about the huge Longwood estates complex that's gone in, in a bombed out neighborhood like Central?  Sure, I’m not nuts about a lot of the suburban-type housing that’s gone into these hoods vs the many apartment buildings that went from thriving->abandoned->drug houses->wrecking ball/empty lots?  Of course not, but the fact is, there is some progress.

 

- What about the shift to areas like downtown?  Oh yeah, you can cook the numbers and make downtown Cleveland look like it hasn’t accomplished much viz other Midwestern cities by limiting our downtown to the CBD while allowing others to suck in neighborhoods (like in Detroit) up to 3+ miles away -- why does Cleveland always seem to draw the short straw on such comparisons?  Fact is, though, downtown is growing dramatically since the 1970s; and continues to grow.

 

And how could Mark Salling, that CSU demographer, predict Cleveland’s population will ‘… dip below 300,000 by 2033 is beyond absurd.  Who the hell knows what Cleveland will be like in 2015 let alone 2033!  It’s a stupid comment and reflects poorly on CSU.  It’s fear-mongering and irresponsible journalism by the PD to even print it…

 

- And once again, you’ve got Tom Bier throwing around that “Poorest city in the country” garbage when, in fact, those numbers have been questioned and, even by the standards given, as I understand it, we no longer hold that ‘lofty’ position.

 

-  Finally, what realistic solutions did this article note to stem this problem?  What did this article

-

 

BOTTOM LINE: Articles like today’s increase my extreme dislike, even hatred, for the PD.  It’s old news, it’s twisted news and its typical of the kind of crap we can expect from them.  I’m no sunshine blower – everyone knows that – but articles weak, unoriginal, twisted articles like these make one realize that we simply are not being properly served by the our newspaper – oh yeah, I forgot, they’re the only game in town, major NP-wise. 

 

 

... and never, never forget, this is the newspaper that dropped Cleveland, it's hometown name, from its masthead and title because, nationally, they did not want to be associated with this town ... its hometown!!  How many big city papers have you seen that?  (even the 2, count 'em 2, Detroit papers didn't do that!)... So should constant negativity like todays PD crap surprise anyone?Makes one long for the long-gone Cleveland Press.  The Plain Dealer is fish wrap (or worse) as far as I’m concerned.  If it wasn’t so abrasive to the skin …

 

 

 

 

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The facts are the facts but the "doom and gloom" perdictions are cancer. Hell I'm depressed reading this 1,100 miles away. It is interesting that the PD chose to publish this article the same day as Cleveland+ ad supplemental.

 

 

 

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I've been thinking about the shrinking city concept for a while and there's something about it I don't like. I've tried to be fair, and thought about it in ways that might justify allowing an area near Cleveland's urban core to return to a natural, rural condition. I understand the goal is to redirect limited resources to combat blight in other areas of the city. Blight, of course, is a cancer. And in considering the metropolitan area as an organic whole, when the cancer of blight almost completely eats away at a part of the city the temptation is to amputate it for the sake of saving the rest.

 

But this ingores two fundamental sources of the cancerous blight. One source is demographic -- population and wealth. The other is geographic -- where is the causative location of the blight? Those who argue for the shrinking city/amputation concept fail to recognize that the blight's geographic source is not at the urban core -- but at the urban fringe.

 

This is true only when a metropolitan area is not increasing in population and wealth. By increasing the physical size of the metropolitan area in the absence of increased metropolitan population and wealth, the end result is the duplication of neighborhoods and communities. Some, especially the oldest neighborhoods and communities, are doomed to fail. As the metropolitan area is allowed to expand further outward, more and more neighborhoods and communities will fail. There is only so much regional, state and federal money to maintain roads, sewers, mass transit and other public services. There is only so much private capital for building and maintaining housing. And, there is only so much individual wealth to support retailers, restaurants and other businesses.

 

When the tide of population and wealth is continually relocated along a circumferential ring farther and farther from the urban core, vacancies, blight, poverty, crime and despair are created in their wake. Ultimately, there is little that the older neighborhoods and communities can do to prevent their death when they are being replaced by new ones at the urban fringe. They can slow their demise. But they cannot stop it.

 

And that's why the shrinking city/amputation will not work. It assumes that the source location of blight is at the urban core. And it assumes that redirecting city resources to fewer parts of the city is necessary to save them. It will only slow their demise as long as we permit the continued outward expansion of the metropolitan area. And it will allow blight to gain its ultimate victory by claiming a rural area in the heart of a major metropolitan area. As the metropolitan area expands outward, so will that core-city rural area. It too will continue to grow, an expanding donut hole.

 

So does this make sense -- destroying rural areas at the urban fringe so we can create them at the urban core -- along with the human toll it exacts? Wouldn't it make more sense to place our efforts at preserving the rural character beyond the urban fringe so we can redirect financial and creative resources to maintain our long-established investment in the city? My soul tells me the latter is the more the humane approach.


"Life is 10% what happens to you and 90% how you respond." -- Coach Lou Holtz

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^ I was thinking the same thing. Why would you destroy infrastructure in one place and then build it somewhere else. This whole idea to me sounds like failure repackaged as success.

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And how could Mark Salling, that CSU demographer, predict Cleveland’s population will ‘… dip below 300,000 by 2033 is beyond absurd.  Who the hell knows what Cleveland will be like in 2015 let alone 2033!  It’s a stupid comment and reflects poorly on CSU.  It’s fear-mongering and irresponsible journalism by the PD to even print it…

 

 

Something tells me his quote was taken out of context.

 

Besides, he may have said it because that is what the Census Bureau is predicting for Cleveland.

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I am so SICK of this garbage from the PD!!  If you keep telling someone they are ugly and worthless, for years and years, the individual will start to BELIEVE it.  The PD is one of the biggest proponents of our "can't do" attitude that we have in the region.  If anyone can find one larger than the PD, let me know.

 

I believe it is time to start a UO campaign to get the word out about the positive things going on in the city, so people can stop believing the PD is professing only the truth, instead of garbage journalism. 

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and the PD also has the new editor from San Jose, CA that wanted to shake things up.  she was interviewed maybe 2 months ago on the noon 90.3 local program. 

 

Unfortunately, the plaindealer.com site is nearly as bad as cleveland.com, so i can't find her information at the moment.

 

and i agree with KJP, that this "shrinking" strategy seems very odd.  part of it might be trying to package the negatives as a positive, which can be good, but it glosses over the real problems.

 

it seems that as a region we don't have the balls to define growth boundaries or other limiting factors (ie no more new homes in medina county until the 5 county region grows by x%).  i think that it makes sense to grow the trees in lake county.  now, if these projects also tackle environmental issues, then on a limited basis, they may make some sense.

 

we also have more than our fair share of brownfields, which are difficult and expensive to redevelop, especially when federal and state policies promote sprawl and greenfield development. 

 

imo, we need competent LEADERSHIP more than anything right now.  on all sorts of issues.  not the same, tired, life-long, local business "leaders", but true leaders that can engage the region, negotiate the numerous divisive issues, and move us forward.

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The key quote in this article is.....

 

“It’s about figuring out how to make an opportunity out of the city we’ve turned into and stop pretending we’ll be Chicago someday.”

 

 

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That we've turned into? The rise and fall of cities aren't some act of nature (aside from hurricanes, volcanoes, earthquakes etc). We turned ourselves into this. We can turn ourselves out of it, but only if we have the understanding of what's needed and the will to do some unpopular actions for the good of the whole. Too bad Americans don't have the experience with cities that Europe and other places with more than just a couple centuries of history have. Then we might have some context as to how short-sighted, selfish and destructive no-growth sprawl really is. Perhaps we'll figure it out in another 500 years.


"Life is 10% what happens to you and 90% how you respond." -- Coach Lou Holtz

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The thing that frustrates me most about Cleveland isn't the leadership so much. It's the citizens. The current citizens of this area are the ones digging their heels in, wanting certain comfort zones .. and that's why so many of them are constantly migrating further and further from the urban core. These ignorant people don't understand that their migration adds to the death of the region.

 

Honestly, I don't have a problem with these people leaving. Let them go. I think Cleveland needs to make some decisive actions for the FUTURE of this city. I keep hearing people (friends of mine, not on UO) bitching that Cleveland is losing all of these jobs .. but what kinds of jobs are they, exactly? Mostly manufacturing jobs, and while I don't think that Cleveland should do what it can to shed the manufacturing sector of its economy, we can't cling to them as though they're our only choice, either!!

 

Who can we attract to the city that will better the city and move the city on to the future? We need to be able to attract well-educated people, people who can contribute to the growth of the city with forward-thinking ideas. We need to be able to attract people with higher incomes as well. We need to get with the program in terms of building infrastructure and ordinances that will show that Cleveland is a major player that can compete with advanced technologies.

 

And I'm not sure if we're doing enough in these terms just yet. I think Mayor Jackson wants to, and I applaud him for that. But does the rest of the CITY want to? That's what worries me.

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The key quote in this article is.....

 

“It’s about figuring out how to make an opportunity out of the city we’ve turned into and stop pretending we’ll be Chicago someday.”

 

I noted this, and think it is typical PD stereotypical, anti-intellectual nonsense.  If this were, say, 1960 whose census first indicated we were losing population (in the city but growing in the burbs) it would be one thing.  But NOBODY I know of thinks Cleveland as trying to grow as big as or be exactly like Chicago, accept (as I do) that we have a lot of what Chicago has but, happily, dish it out in a less expensive, more hassle-free setting.   It's a straw man argument.

 

I just object to articles like this because, to me, they offer nothing but fear-mongering and depression.  As for learning to live with less: aren't we doing that?  Haven't we learned, as preached by Mayor Jackson (among others), that greater regional cooperation is what will not only help this region survive, but thrive?  Aren't we seeing this with the support -- Democrat and Republican (suburban mayors) for the Med Mart tax?  And isn't the Med Mart, plus CWRU/UH's quadrangle campus and example of attempting to capitalize on a great nationa strenght of Clevelands, medical R & D?... Where was this in the article?... No, for the PD the slant is always how desperate we are, doomed we are and (via architecture critic Steve Litt) how little we have (quality building-wise) and because we're such a bunch of unsophisticated country boobs, can't appreciate what little we have... Typical PeeDee.

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If Cleveland was really pretending to be Chicago, we'd probably see a few cranes in the sky right now... :wink:

 

Oh, and a Lorain AND Akron commuter rail!

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Too bad Americans don't have the experience with cities that Europe and other places with more than just a couple centuries of history have. Then we might have some context as to how short-sighted, selfish and destructive no-growth sprawl really is. Perhaps we'll figure it out in another 500 years.

I think this is an excellent point. Chicago and NYC definitely have it, as far as good urban planning goes. Both of these cities had grasped the importance of good urban planning, no doubt inspired by other European cities. And living in NYC (not to constantly bring that up), I can see firsthand what benefits their labor has produced, and still continues to produce as these places continue to place high priority on progressive urban planning.

 

I think that the advantages that these places have, in addition to many European cities, is that these standards have been in place for decades, if not centuries. Cleveland is just relatively recently beginning to attempt to change its image from a predominantly blue-collar, industrial town to something of more of a greater diversity, and people are just beginning to want more of an emphasis on the urban lifestyle common to many cities. Maybe I'm wrong on this, I dunno. But these are my observations.

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"I am so SICK of this garbage from the PD!!  If you keep telling someone they are ugly and worthless, for years and years, the individual will start to BELIEVE it.  The PD is one of the biggest proponents of our "can't do" attitude that we have in the region.  If anyone can find one larger than the PD, let me know."

 

Imagine sitting at a party, across from a real estate agent - someone whose very livelihood depends on the health of the city and its ability to attract homebuyers - and listening to them passionately whine that "no one's buying those condos at that... what's it called? Pinnacle?" and "Stark can build whatever, but it's not going to help. Look at what happened to Tower City!". Before you ask, this is someone who lives in the city and does a lot of their transactions in the city, and yes I was happy to correct them on every incorrect statement - they still had the same attitude, though.

 

Just like the PD is scaring away potential subscribers by putting the most negative news front and center, you have these unfathomably ignorant people making comments like that and then they wonder why their respective businesses are floundering. I'm not saying things need to be glossed over, but as an example - did a parking conflict at a new condo building really deserve above the fold front page placement?

 

To those of you from the PD who read this (you know who you are) - if you're wondering why your subscriptions are going down - walk over to the nearest mirror or reflective surface.

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What, you mean scaring people out of the region entirely isn't helping there newspaper circulation?

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As for KJP concerns about the "Shrinking City" model, I think that it may work for Youngstown which hasn't been as much of a victim of exurbs as it has of people outright leaving the area, when compared to Cleveland. The shrinking city plan for Y-town is let's not aim to be a small to medium city but rather let's build on the amenities that we have left from the good (economic) times and focus on being a bedroom community of sorts to the medium cities of Pittsburgh and Cleveland and to a lesser extent Akron.

 

I believe that Cleveland needs to be leveraging it's assets on a national level to grow. I guess that we really should be marketing the city as 80% of the value of the big markets (Chicago, Boston, Etc) at about 40% of the cost of living.

 

 

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As for KJP concerns about the "Shrinking City" model, I think that it may work for Youngstown which hasn't been as much of a victim of exurbs as it has of people outright leaving the area, when compared to Cleveland. The shrinking city plan for Y-town is let's not aim to be a small to medium city but rather let's build on the amenities that we have left from the good (economic) times and focus on being a bedroom community of sorts to the medium cities of Pittsburgh and Cleveland and to a lesser extent Akron.

 

I believe that Cleveland needs to be leveraging it's assets on a national level to grow. I guess that we really should be marketing the city as 80% of the value of the big markets (Chicago, Boston, Etc) at about 40% of the cost of living.

 

I don't think there's anything wrong with Cleveland marketing itself in that way, either. I think the whole shrinking cities proposition is a way of saying "we give up" to a certain extent. I think Cleveland needs to constantly aim high. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that, in my opinion. The naysayers that are saying things like "Cleveland will never be Chicago", etc are, I believe, choosing to have the mentality that is plaguing this region as a whole: Cleveland will never amount to anything, so why bother?

 

This mentality shocks me. What shocks me even more is that people are surprised that people are leaving the city. Negative attitudes will never grow a city and move it beyond stagnation/decline. VISION WILL.

 

I agree that we can't gloss things over, and we shouldn't ignore problems in a city. But to DWELL on those things will mire a city down and stop it from being what it truly can be.

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Imagine sitting at a party, across from a real estate agent .....

 

Time to start a campaign, with bumper stickers, T-shirts, etc. emblazoned with:

 

"I HATE THE PD BECAUSE I LOVE CLEVELAND!"


"Life is 10% what happens to you and 90% how you respond." -- Coach Lou Holtz

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in regards to population trends the city and county need to perform their own quasi census so that they have grounds to challenge the official census.

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Time to start a campaign, with bumper stickers, T-shirts, etc. emblazoned with:

 

"I HATE THE PD BECAUSE I LOVE CLEVELAND!"

 

I love that idea.  I'd buy three of everything.

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