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Restarting Passenger Rail In Ohio's 3C Corridor

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The original 3C was for high or at least higher speed rail, right? 

Is there any plan on using existing infrastructure to start a passenger train route between the cities now?

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The original 3C was for high or at least higher speed rail, right? 

Is there any plan on using existing infrastructure to start a passenger train route between the cities now?

 

The 3C plan was for conventional speed (79 MPH) passenger service with the intent of using that as the basis for future higher speed service.

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I believe that if 3C had offered "high or at least higher speed," Strickland could have rode it to victory.  Liberals were markedly underwhelmed with the plan and Kasich's campaign hammered the speed issue.

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I believe that if 3C had offered "high or at least higher speed," Strickland could have rode it to victory.  Liberals were markedly underwhelmed with the plan and Kasich's campaign hammered the speed issue.

 

Except that previous plans (dating back decades) for true high-speed rail failed because of concerns about cost and ridership.  It's similar to why the Wisconsin and Florida projects failed.  The opponents say "it's too expensive, let's start more slowly and simply."  Though when we do suggest to start more slowly and simply, like with the 3-C project, then "it's too slow, nobody will ride it, we want real high-speed!" 

 

Maybe there's a middle ground?  Some new high-speed alignments from the start, and upgrades to existing routes where feasible, allowing for moderate speed service.  The danger there is that it will be subject to criticism from both sides.  We may just have to wait for gas prices to rise further so people will be forced to deal with the circumstances.  Being proactive would be best, but we may just have to be reactionary instead.  At least we have the plans and won't have to start all over from scratch again, I hope. 

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I believe that if 3C had offered "high or at least higher speed," Strickland could have rode it to victory.  Liberals were markedly underwhelmed with the plan and Kasich's campaign hammered the speed issue.

 

The cost to upgrade existing ROW to higher-speed rail is significantly greater than the cost to implement conventional speeds. I think it was apparent in the campaign and afterward that Kasich is ideologically opposed to intercity passenger rail, and I'm convinced that if a plan had been presented for higher-speed trains, he would have based his attack on the cost.

 

We've been through that discussion ad nauseam already, and there is no point in re-hashing why Kasich killed it or trying to lay it at the feet of the backers. Read the title of the topic; it's now "Restarting Passenger Rail In Ohio's 3C Corridor." Do you have any on-topic comments to offer?

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Yes.

 

It could be as simple as painting a clear picture of how we get beyond "conventional" after we build it as such. 

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I think the only solution is to make partnerships between municipalities and perhaps add private entities into the mix.

 

The only other way I see is to greatly lower the actual costs of building the infrastructure, which seems unlikely. (This could also be complementary with the first solution.)

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T

The original 3C was for high or at least higher speed rail, right? 

Is there any plan on using existing infrastructure to start a passenger train route between the cities now?

 

The 3C plan was for conventional speed (79 MPH) passenger service with the intent of using that as the basis for future higher speed service.

 

Thanks noozer

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Our old friend James Nash, formerly a reporter with the Columbus Dispatch who did many a hatchet job on 3C as he relied on Republican operatives like Mike Dawson while keeping opposing views out of the paper, has moved on....

 

http://twitter.com/#!/jmnash

 

Turns out he was dating a Republican Party staffer while covering one of the primary campaign issues during the governor's race. An honorable man would have disclosed that to his editor. And an honorable editor would have re-assigned him to a non-political beat.


"Life is 10% what happens to you and 90% how you respond." -- Coach Lou Holtz

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Our old friend James Nash, formerly a reporter with the Columbus Dispatch who did many a hatchet job on 3C as he relied on Republican operatives like Mike Dawson while keeping opposing views out of the paper, has moved on....

 

http://twitter.com/#!/jmnash

 

Turns out he was dating a Republican Party staffer while covering one of the primary campaign issues during the governor's race. An honorable man would have disclosed that to his editor. And an honorable editor would have re-assigned him to a non-political beat.

 

Well, well, well. Honor? At the Dispatch? Nah. BTW, a primitive like me does not Twitter, tweeter, twaddle or whatever. In fact, I just dumped my Facebook page to simplify things. What did the link say?

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I believe that if 3C had offered "high or at least higher speed," Strickland could have rode it to victory.  Liberals were markedly underwhelmed with the plan and Kasich's campaign hammered the speed issue.

 

Except that previous plans (dating back decades) for true high-speed rail failed because of concerns about cost and ridership.  It's similar to why the Wisconsin and Florida projects failed.  The opponents say "it's too expensive, let's start more slowly and simply."  Though when we do suggest to start more slowly and simply, like with the 3-C project, then "it's too slow, nobody will ride it, we want real high-speed!" 

 

Maybe there's a middle ground?  Some new high-speed alignments from the start, and upgrades to existing routes where feasible, allowing for moderate speed service.  The danger there is that it will be subject to criticism from both sides.  We may just have to wait for gas prices to rise further so people will be forced to deal with the circumstances.  Being proactive would be best, but we may just have to be reactionary instead.  At least we have the plans and won't have to start all over from scratch again, I hope. 

 

My own thought is that the line should have been (and could-still has relevance) proposed from the start as a 90 mph top speed/65 mph avg speed corridor with an auto competitive 4:15 Cleveland-Cincinnati running time. This could have been done with remanufactured secondhand equipment, much cheaper than new, allowing money to be plowed into ROW improvements, including more second track and signaling to permit higher speeds. This could have been done for the original $400 million awarded to Ohio. We could revisit this thru a joint powers authority, but that will be much more difficult for the simple reason that the money will have to be raised some other way and the state is implacably opposed.

 

 

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Heck, if it weren't that 39mph stigma, we'd probably have our 3C train today, even with governor psycho (assuming he wants to be reelected). That number really threw so many people off even after it turned out to be on the low side.

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Our old friend James Nash, formerly a reporter with the Columbus Dispatch who did many a hatchet job on 3C as he relied on Republican operatives like Mike Dawson while keeping opposing views out of the paper, has moved on....

http://twitter.com/#!/jmnash

 

Turns out he was dating a Republican Party staffer while covering one of the primary campaign issues during the governor's race. An honorable man would have disclosed that to his editor. And an honorable editor would have re-assigned him to a non-political beat.

 

The Dispatch's lack of honor is no surprise... 

 

 

Heck, if it weren't that 39mph stigma, we'd probably have our 3C train today, even with governor psycho (assuming he wants to be reelected). That number really threw so many people off even after it turned out to be on the low side.

 

I was disappointed the way the Strickland administration and his campaign staff and the Ohio Democratic Party let the Repubs get away with this lie.  And the way they allowed the Repubs to take what was always intended to be the first step of a Republican-created plan (The Ohio Hub plan) and use it as a campaign wedge issue.  It's no wonder the Ohio Dems have been marginalized in state-level politics for so long.  They don't know how to defend themselves and fight back.  They can't seem to fight their way out of a wet paper sack. 

 

 

but that will be much more difficult for the simple reason that the money will have to be raised some other way and the state is implacably opposed.

 

We've been through that discussion ad nauseam already, and there is no point in re-hashing why Kasich killed it or trying to lay it at the feet of the backers. Read the title of the topic; it's now "Restarting Passenger Rail In Ohio's 3C Corridor." Do you have any on-topic comments to offer?

 

If the business community in Ohio would get off their rear ends and make noise like the Wisconsin business community has started doing there, we'd get the train back. 

 

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ODOT paid $1.3 million for passenger-rail effort, won't seek reimbursement from feds

Published: Wednesday, June 15, 2011, 5:10 PM    Updated: Thursday, June 16, 2011, 7:56 AM

  By Tom Breckenridge, The Plain Dealer

 

COLUMBUS,Ohio -- Ohio will not get back the $1.3 million it spent on a scrapped high-speed passenger rail project.

 

Gov. John Kasich axed the proposed passenger-rail link between Cleveland, Columbus and Cincinnati when he took office in January.

 

State transportation officials said they didn't push for reimbursement from the federal government because rail officials expressed "great concern" in reimbursing states where no construction would occur, Melissa Ayers, spokeswoman for the Ohio Department of Transportation, said in an email.

 

READ MORE AT:

http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2011/06/odot_paid_13_million_for_passe.html


"Life is 10% what happens to you and 90% how you respond." -- Coach Lou Holtz

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So where does Ohio stand now on supporting rail? I know there's the advocacy group "All Aboard Ohio," but is there any realistic timeline for getting intercity rail in Ohio?

 

I had a great time visiting Cincy last week, but rush hour on 71 made me beg for a freakin' train to drop from the sky and take me the rest of the way!

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So where does Ohio stand now on supporting rail? I know there's the advocacy group "All Aboard Ohio," but is there any realistic timeline for getting intercity rail in Ohio?

 

I had a great time visiting Cincy last week, but rush hour on 71 made me beg for a freakin' train to drop from the sky and take me the rest of the way!

 

You're new here to UrbanOhio, but you're preaching to the choir in many of your posts  ;)

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On certain days when I-71 rush hour is bad in Cincinnati, it's faster to either cut through Montgomery or Blue Ash on the back roads.

 

I'd rather have commuter/light rail out there than anything. No amount of widening will stop the exodus of suburbanites further out :(

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So where does Ohio stand now on supporting rail? I know there's the advocacy group "All Aboard Ohio," but is there any realistic timeline for getting intercity rail in Ohio?

 

I had a great time visiting Cincy last week, but rush hour on 71 made me beg for a freakin' train to drop from the sky and take me the rest of the way!

 

You're new here to UrbanOhio, but you're preaching to the choir in many of your posts  ;)

 

I was in Cleveland a couple weeks back for the Reds/Indians game.  The entire group I was with kept talking about how great a link between these two cities would be.  I obviously agree, but was surprised it wasn't me bringing it up in conversation.  Shame on Kasich forever on that one!  We will get it eventually, but it sure would've been nice to see the benefits of it over the next four years.  Especially with the amount of development and energy going on in the cores of these gorgeous city centers.  This was a game changer for Ohio in the minds of many!  Keep fighting for it!

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So where does Ohio stand now on supporting rail? I know there's the advocacy group "All Aboard Ohio," but is there any realistic timeline for getting intercity rail in Ohio?

 

I had a great time visiting Cincy last week, but rush hour on 71 made me beg for a freakin' train to drop from the sky and take me the rest of the way!

 

You're new here to UrbanOhio, but you're preaching to the choir in many of your posts  ;)

 

I was in Cleveland a couple weeks back for the Reds/Indians game.  The entire group I was with kept talking about how great a link between these two cities would be.  I obviously agree, but was surprised it wasn't me bringing it up in conversation.  Shame on Kasich forever on that one!  We will get it eventually, but it sure would've been nice to see the benefits of it over the next four years.  Especially with the amount of development and energy going on in the cores of these gorgeous city centers.  This was a game changer for Ohio in the minds of many!  Keep fighting for it!

 

I'm glad to hear that you had the same sentiments I had visiting Cincy while visiting Cleveland. (And I was actually at two of those Reds beat downs ;)).

 

Was a study ever done to get an estimate on how many more people would do CLE-Cincy or vice verse if rail were created? Thus, an estimate could be made on the economic impact of these tourists or frequent visitors. I know opponents said nobody would ride it, but I think the "cranky old man" voices were simply louder than our modest "yeah, we'd ride it" voices.

 

And does anyone know where rail stands now in Ohio? I think I read on here that Cincy has to do more voting for their street car and that a route might be created from Youngstown/Warren to Pittsburgh.

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If you want to get current with what's happening with passenger rail in Ohio, you might want to consider joining All Aboard Ohio .... http://allaboardohio.org/home/

 

They also have most of the information and studies that were conducted during the most recent effort to re-establish passenger rail service in the 3C.

 

You're pretty much spot on in tagging some of the opposition as "cranky old men".... but it was mostly political idealogues who never let the facts stand in the way of what they espoused.

 

 

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If you want to get current with what's happening with passenger rail in Ohio, you might want to consider joining All Aboard Ohio .... http://allaboardohio.org/home/

 

They also have most of the information and studies that were conducted during the most recent effort to re-establish passenger rail service in the 3C.

 

You're pretty much spot on in tagging some of the opposition as "cranky old men".... but it was mostly political idealogues who never let the facts stand in the way of what they espoused.

 

 

I've tried signing up for their enewsletter, but I always get an error... I'll keep checking in, though! Is there anything being done to promote it on a grand scale? I think Positively Cleveland should work with Experience Columbus and Cincy's tourism bureau to gain support among the 3-C's.

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Get in touch with KJP via personal message on this site.  He can help you with the All Aboard Ohio stuff.

 

Agreed on getting the various convention & visitor bureaus involved.... but don't forget the young professional groups in the 3C's (and Dayton), local Chambers of Commerce.  But ultimately, it's going to take a shift in political will at the state level.

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Get in touch with KJP via personal message on this site.  He can help you with the All Aboard Ohio stuff.

 

Agreed on getting the various convention & visitor bureaus involved.... but don't forget the young professional groups in the 3C's (and Dayton), local Chambers of Commerce.  But ultimately, it's going to take a shift in political will at the state level.

 

Will do!

 

And yeah... always with the damn political will! I've made a promise with myself that when I grow into a cranky old man and question what young professionals want to do, that I will just shut the Hell up and let them take over. They keep holding us back so that we catch up to more progressive states as they move onto something else. We're like the Wile Coyote of states!

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So where does Ohio stand now on supporting rail? I know there's the advocacy group "All Aboard Ohio," but is there any realistic timeline for getting intercity rail in Ohio?

 

 

Ohio is not going to undertake any passenger rail development projects for the next four years, at least. If anything happens, it will be because of a multi-state or congressional effort involving improved Amtrak services on existing east-west routes.

 

I've tried signing up for their enewsletter, but I always get an error... I'll keep checking in, though! Is there anything being done to promote it on a grand scale? I think Positively Cleveland should work with Experience Columbus and Cincy's tourism bureau to gain support among the 3-C's.

 

The enewsletter is no longer being published as we've gone back to a more regular print schedule of the old "newspaper" version of the newsletter. Those will be posted on the website after a few months pass by, however. If you want more up-to-date information, please subscribe to the newsletter "Ohio Passenger Rail News" by joining All Aboard Ohio. You can also get information from our Facebook and Twitter accounts, which we have new volunteers working on to keep these more up-to-date.


"Life is 10% what happens to you and 90% how you respond." -- Coach Lou Holtz

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CLEJoe wrote:

Was a study ever done to get an estimate on how many more people would do CLE-Cincy or vice verse if rail were created? Thus, an estimate could be made on the economic impact of these tourists or frequent visitors. I know opponents said nobody would ride it, but I think the "cranky old man" voices were simply louder than our modest "yeah, we'd ride it" voices.

 

There was a detailed economic impact analysis done of the original Ohio Hub Plan in 2007.  Tourism was included in the analysis.  The original Ohio Hub Plan included the 3-C, CLE-Pittsburgh, CLE-Toledo-Detroit, and CLE-Buffalo-Toronto.  This was available at www.ohiohub.com, but I just tried it and it appears ODOT has removed public access from the site-- it now requires a password.  The Kasich administration must be afraid of letting people see the Ohio Hub documents.  I'm glad I downloaded them all before Kasich took over.

 

 

 

 

 

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Good thing we have a free state run by a government that is open and accessible to its people. Whoops... I must be thinking of a different state in another country.


"Life is 10% what happens to you and 90% how you respond." -- Coach Lou Holtz

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CLEJoe wrote:

Was a study ever done to get an estimate on how many more people would do CLE-Cincy or vice verse if rail were created? Thus, an estimate could be made on the economic impact of these tourists or frequent visitors. I know opponents said nobody would ride it, but I think the "cranky old man" voices were simply louder than our modest "yeah, we'd ride it" voices.

 

There was a detailed economic impact analysis done of the original Ohio Hub Plan in 2007.  Tourism was included in the analysis.  The original Ohio Hub Plan included the 3-C, CLE-Pittsburgh, CLE-Toledo-Detroit, and CLE-Buffalo-Toronto.  This was available at www.ohiohub.com, but I just tried it and it appears ODOT has removed public access from the site-- it now requires a password.  The Kasich administration must be afraid of letting people see the Ohio Hub documents.  I'm glad I downloaded them all before Kasich took over.

 

You have got to be kidding me! They know those reports are convincing.

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So, I was in Midway, Kentucky yesterday - the midpoint for the the Lexington & Ohio Railroad that still runs daily freight trips between Louisville and Lexington. The line's operator is now RJ Corman, and so we got into the discussion of passenger rail at two shops. I think I pointed this out maybe a while back, but RJ Corman is looking to start up passenger service between the two cities, on trackage he leases from CSX. I don't think I posted the most recent articles, but it looks like money that was to be used to widen Interstate 64 to three-lanes (in each direction) may now be diverted to straighten curves, and do other track maintenance to allow passenger trails to run up to 70 MPH.

 

Then, one of them says, "At least we don't have that jackass of a governor Kasich running out ship."

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Sherman, do you know of any news coverage of this? I'd love to share that news with others.


"Life is 10% what happens to you and 90% how you respond." -- Coach Lou Holtz

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^

I wonder if this is related to that Franfort econ dev guys effort to restart passenger service between Louisville and Lexington.  This guy or office things it would be of benefit to Franffort to get the service running.  I think I posted on this elsewhere.

 

Then, one of them says, "At least we don't have that jackass of a governor Kasich running out ship."

 

Ouch! 

 

 

 

 

 

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Kasich shuns buses, trains

Published: Sun, June 26, 2011 @ 12:00 a.m.

By Ken Prendergast

 

Special to The Vindicator

 

Our dear governor sure has lots of interesting things to say. For example, he said he wants Ohioans to get on his bus or he’ll run them over with it. Odd thing is, Gov. John Kasich doesn’t like buses; doesn’t like trains much either, as we all know. He doesn’t seem to like any alternatives to driving in Ohio, except one.

 

The April 16, 2011, Dayton Daily News reported that the governor used the state’s planes for 16 in-state, and four out-of-state trips in his first 81 days in office. It took his predecessor 13 months to equal Kasich’s plane usage.

 

For advocates of better trains and transit, that wasn’t the most telling part of that article. It was yet another memorable Kasich quote: “There is no doubt about it — I can’t get to all these places if I’m not able to fly.”

 

Read more at: http://www.vindy.com/news/2011/jun/26/kasich-shuns-buses-trains/?newswatch

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Well written piece, Ken. 

 

Good use of statistics and quotes, as well.  I especially liked the quote from the person at the Ford Motor Company.  That should fit nicely up the butts of those who claim that people always long for the "freedom" of their automobiles and wouldn't dream of using other options if they were available.

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What is the context of the Ford quote? You make it sound anti-auto, but I can't imagine something of that nature would come from a Ford person.

 

It's just an auto exec acknowledging that younger people don't have the same urgency about owning a car as their older siblings or parents..... something they (the automakers) are also seeing in the demographics of their sales.  Younger people are much more engaged with their electronic devices and they want transportation that allows them the freedom and time to use those devices (laptops, smart phones, etc).

 

A car does not allow for that kind of activity...at least not safely. 

 

Kasich thinks he can just declare something "cool" and it will be so.  He and his people are so completely out of touch with the wants and needs of upcoming generations that it is laughable.  He might as well show up for his next public event in a white disco suit..... he is that out of touch.

 

What's cool is this.....

 

http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/world/2011/06/27/high.speed.train.cnn?&hpt=hp_c2

 

....Something about which our esteemed Governor is clueless.

 

 

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^ "Kasich thinks he can just declare something "cool" and it will be so.  He and his people are so completely out of touch with the wants and needs of upcoming generations that it is laughable.  He might as well show up for his next public event in a white disco suit..... he is that out of touch."

 

I could not agree more. He is also totally out of touch with existing generations...and/or those who are unable to drive, do not wish to drive, etc...  for whatever reason. And after reading the article... I still shudder to think ONE GUY has the power to impose his dogma on an entire state!

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Sherman, do you know of any news coverage of this? I'd love to share that news with others.

 

Let me see if I saved it in my personal archives.

 

The thing about our proposal in Kentucky, is that it uses a line that RJ Corman owns. It's substantially easier to do improvements to the line - which carries freight four times a day at peak, when you have a cooperative short line operator than a Class One operator. Plus, Corman has other passenger interests - he runs the Bardstown Dinner Train, has proposed one for Lexington (going to Louisville and back), and proposed the White Sulfur Spgs., Wv. - Lexington, Ky. line (Kenneland special from The Greenbrier)!

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RJ Corman owns or leases several lines in Ohio, but none of them are rail corridors that would generate a lot of passenger traffic.  They are mostly truncated, rural shortlines that serve either agribusinesses in small communities or local industries.

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July/August 2011

 

The Case for Not-Quite-So-High-Speed Rail

The bad news: Republicans have torpedoed plans for American bullet trains. The good news: The Obama administration is quietly building a slower, but potentially much better, rail system.

By Phillip Longman

 

This principle is also illustrated by Amtrak’s highly successful “Cascades” service on the 187-mile line between Portland and Seattle. The Spanish-designed Talgo “tilt” train sets look futuristic, and with their on-board bistros and comfy chairs they are a joy to ride. But because they run on conventional track through mountainous country shared by freight trains, their current top speed is only 79 mph, and their average speed is just 53.

 

Still, that’s enough to make taking the train faster than driving, and ridership has swelled to more than 700,000 passengers a year. Using federal stimulus dollars plus state spending, work is currently under way to boost top train speeds to 110-125 mph, simply by adding better signaling and more sidings to let freight trains get out of the way. This incremental investment will also boost reliability and allow for increased frequency, which will further bump up ridership. But numerous studies show there is no point in making trains go faster than 125 mph on a segment this short because of the great cost involved and the limited gains to total trip times. Moreover, if a new bullet train line were built between Portland and Seattle, the tremendous cost of its construction would require fares too high for all but well-heeled business travelers to afford.

 

Read more at: http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/magazine/julyaugust_2011/features/the_case_for_notquite_sohighsp030492.php?page=3

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