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Restarting Passenger Rail In Ohio's 3C Corridor

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Thanks. I appreciate hearing that.


"Life is 10% what happens to you and 90% how you respond." -- Coach Lou Holtz

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I suppose one could draft a Referendum ballot initiative with wording requiring the State to accept the $400M and use it for the 3C start up costs. However, the Gen. Assembly could then refuse to provide whatever additional monies needed to finish the project and refuse to fund its operations.

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^I am sure the money will be re-appropriated before that could ever be done.  Ashame as so much work went into getting the $$ in the first place as Ohio competed with other states for the limited funds.

 

EDIT:  competed with other "more progressive" states

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Perhaps Ken and others could speak to this thought I've had and perhaps it's already been discussed somewhere in the previous 153 pages of this thread (If so, I appologize):

 

Is is possibe that reviving rail service in the 3-C corridor is a hard-sell due to the fact that it has been nearly 40 years since the cities were connected to each other? 

 

No question about it. Even if we had daytime service with the existing Amtrak routes through Ohio, our efforts would be greatly simplified. With the trains sneaking through in the middle of the night, it's about as close to not having any service at all.

 

History lesson:  When Amtrak was being created in 1970, the private railroads were still running about 400 daily intercity passenger trains nationwide (not including commuter trains etc. like the Long Island Railroad or Chicago extensive system out to the suburbs). The Department of Transportation was designing the new Amtrak, including which train routes the federal government would continue to operate.

 

As usual, Congress had a major role in what routes, frequency of services, etc. would be added to the system. Congresspersons and Senators who spoke up for their favorite trains and routes would be more able to save them than those who didn't speak up.

 

Congressfolk in other states pushed for keeping long- short-distance trains, such as Midwest routes like Chicago-St. Louis, Chicago-Milwaukee and Chicago-Detroit, or eastern routes like New York-Buffalo and Philadelphia-Pittsburgh. Congresspersons in other states also sought several east-west trunk routes through Ohio, but Ohio reps and senators were silent. There wasn't even any train proposed to be saved through Cleveland and Toledo. And Ohio Congressionals didn't push for any north-south routes in Ohio, such as 3C.

 

So the final Amtrak map and schedules that Amtrak implemented on the first day of service, May 1, 1971, treated Ohio like the rail equivalent of a flyover state. The 400 daily trains that were running nationwide on April 30 was slashed to just 184 the following day under Amtrak. Ohio Governor John J. Gilligan wanted to fix Ohio's omission by joining with New York State in committing state funds for a train called the Lake Shore between Chicago, Toledo, Cleveland, Buffalo and New York. The train started on May 10, 1971 but was canceled in November of that year when the General Assembly refused to approved funding for the train. The Lake Shore was reinstated in 1975 as a federally funded "experimental route" and has been running ever since.

 

But Ohio missed out on having better Amtrak service because its Congressional delegation in 1970-71 did not speak up and urge the inclusion of more Ohio passenger routes in the planned Amtrak system. Except for a few federal experimental trains (and none have been added since the 1970s), only state action can add new trains/routes to the basic Amtrak system. And the Ohio state government has refused to do this since 1971.

 

So, jeffinmichigan, this is a long way of saying I agree with you wholeheartedly. The reason why Michigan, Illinois, New York and others have an easier time selling state investments in trains is most definitely due to the fact they have always had something useful to demonstrate.

 

And the reason why Ohio doesn't have any examples goes back 40 years.


"Life is 10% what happens to you and 90% how you respond." -- Coach Lou Holtz

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Funding nationwide is a joke. Boston gets 14 billion for a leaking tunnel. Wisconsin gets $810 million to connect 2.5 million people through high speed rail, yet Ohio only gets 400 million to connect 7+ million people through  high speed rail and we are pissing it away. lol

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If the state of Ohio wants to move forward on 3C, then yes, it has to go to the state controlling aboard for a supermajority (5-2) approval of capital expenditures and a simple majority (4-3) approval of operating costs.

 

BTW, road projects only need a simple majority for capital and no vote at all for operating costs.

 

That is awesomely awful information.  Totally ridiculous how the system is gamed.  Thanks.

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Perhaps Ken and others could speak to this thought I've had and perhaps it's already been discussed somewhere in the previous 153 pages of this thread (If so, I appologize):

 

Is is possibe that reviving rail service in the 3-C corridor is a hard-sell due to the fact that it has been nearly 40 years since the cities were connected to each other? 

 

No question about it. Even if we had daytime service with the existing Amtrak routes through Ohio, our efforts would be greatly simplified. With the trains sneaking through in the middle of the night, it's about as close to not having any service at all.

 

History lesson:  When Amtrak was being created in 1970, the private railroads were still running about 400 daily intercity passenger trains nationwide (not including commuter trains etc. like the Long Island Railroad or Chicago extensive system out to the suburbs). The Department of Transportation was designing the new Amtrak, including which train routes the federal government would continue to operate.

 

As usual, Congress had a major role in what routes, frequency of services, etc. would be added to the system. Congresspersons and Senators who spoke up for their favorite trains and routes would be more able to save them than those who didn't speak up.

 

Congressfolk in other states pushed for keeping long- short-distance trains, such as Midwest routes like Chicago-St. Louis, Chicago-Milwaukee and Chicago-Detroit, or eastern routes like New York-Buffalo and Philadelphia-Pittsburgh. Congresspersons in other states also sought several east-west trunk routes through Ohio, but Ohio reps and senators were silent. There wasn't even any train proposed to be saved through Cleveland and Toledo. And Ohio Congressionals didn't push for any north-south routes in Ohio, such as 3C.

 

So the final Amtrak map and schedules that Amtrak implemented on the first day of service, May 1, 1971, treated Ohio like the rail equivalent of a flyover state. The 400 daily trains that were running nationwide on April 30 was slashed to just 184 the following day under Amtrak. Ohio Governor John J. Gilligan wanted to fix Ohio's omission by joining with New York State in committing state funds for a train called the Lake Shore between Chicago, Toledo, Cleveland, Buffalo and New York. The train started on May 10, 1971 but was canceled in November of that year when the General Assembly refused to approved funding for the train. The Lake Shore was reinstated in 1975 as a federally funded "experimental route" and has been running ever since.

 

But Ohio missed out on having better Amtrak service because its Congressional delegation in 1970-71 did not speak up and urge the inclusion of more Ohio passenger routes in the planned Amtrak system. Except for a few federal experimental trains (and none have been added since the 1970s), only state action can add new trains/routes to the basic Amtrak system. And the Ohio state government has refused to do this since 1971.

 

So, jeffinmichigan, this is a long way of saying I agree with you wholeheartedly. The reason why Michigan, Illinois, New York and others have an easier time selling state investments in trains is most definitely due to the fact they have always had something useful to demonstrate.

 

And the reason why Ohio doesn't have any examples goes back 40 years.

 

KJP is right in that Ohio had few champions in its Congressional delegation and almost none at the state level when Amtrak was created and that low level of support has persisted to this day. Conversely, the process by which the Amtrak route structure was developed was politically driven to a very large degree. When one community or another was left off the initial map, many protested, but most Ohio communties did not until after the intial system started.

 

So, when Montana had Senate Majority leader Mike Mansfield in its corner, they got the North Coast Hiawatha on the old NP route and West Virginia had Congressman Harley Staggers, who demanded a train from Washington to Parkersburg WV, Ohio leaders sat on their hands. Thus, Cleveland and Toledo were left off the map and there was no 3C Corridor or Cleveland-Pittsburgh route.

 

The only Ohio champion I can think of was the Late Sen. Robert Taft (Gov Taft's father), who pushed for reinstatement of the Lake Shore Limited, which began operating in late 1975. He even ran TV campaign ads bragging about it and was on the rear platform of the train as it passed thru Ohio. He even wanted the 3C corridor and Cleveland-Pittsburgh and publically said so. Current Repubs would do well to emulate the late senator!

 

Otherwise, Ohio politicians were out to lunch when trains like the National Limited came off in 1979, ending all service to Columbus and Dayton. Columbus area rep Sam devine called the train a waste of money and Sen Glenn offered no support, saying "we have to make sacrifices" when dealing with tight budgets. We haven't had a train since.

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    If it makes you feel any better, Ohio is under-represented at the federal level by the nature of distribution of seats in Congress. Ohio ranks 7th in population, but has only two Senators, just like every other state. It's a rigged game.

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If it makes you feel any better, Ohio is under-represented at the federal level by the nature of distribution of seats in Congress. Ohio ranks 7th in population, but has only two Senators, just like every other state. It's a rigged game.

 

That's why we have a House of Representatives, where each state's delegation is based on population. 

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  Yes, Obviously...

 

  But think about it this way. Providence, Rhode Island, is the largest city in it's state. It gets, just about for itself, 2 Representative, 2 Senators, and 4 Electoral Votes. Plus, it's right next door to a lot of other states. 

 

    Ohio gets 18 Representatives, 2 Senators, and 20 Electoral Votes, which are split among 7 cities, for an average of 2.5 Reps, 0.3 Senators, and 2.9 Electoral votes per city. I didn't even count all of Ohio's other cities.

 

                        Providence    Cincinnati 

Representatives    2                2.5

Senators            2.5              0.3

Electoral Votes    4                2.9

Total                  8.5              5.7

 

Well, the math isn't exact, but I hope I proved my point. Ohio cities especially come short in the Senate. This is why the east coast cities have an advantage in federal funding.

 

 

 

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Even the states own the Interstate highways. The feds provide 80% of the capital funding while the states pay the day-to-day operating/maintenance costs. Same with conventional/high-speed passenger rail.


"Life is 10% what happens to you and 90% how you respond." -- Coach Lou Holtz

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East Coast cities WANT rail and their elected officials are not shy about it  --- THAT--- is why they have an advantage... though it does have something to do with numbers the more important thing is that they are not reluctant or indecisive on the issue.

 

Is there hope for 3C if Obama pulls an Ike and federalizes the national HSR system?

 

The % of funding provided by the Fed Gov varies per project, but it in the case of 3C it is right around 80%.  The amount of funds that Ohio has to commit to the initial phase is RIDICULOUSLY low.

 

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I've heard others refer to that Morning Journal article and say "see he supports some passenger rail." But where is there anything in that article that says that? All he apparently says is that 3C is not the same as West Shore. That doesn't mean he supports West Shore.


"Life is 10% what happens to you and 90% how you respond." -- Coach Lou Holtz

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Is there hope for 3C if Obama pulls an Ike and federalizes the national HSR system?

 

He could always do this....

 

http://www.theonion.com/video/obama-replaces-costly-highspeed-rail-plan-with-hig,18473/

 

As really funny as it is, the reality is more real than The Onion realizes.


"Life is 10% what happens to you and 90% how you respond." -- Coach Lou Holtz

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Well, here's one Republican governor who wants Ohio's $400 million....

 

Schwarzenegger tells Obama administration: We'll take whatever money others don't want

November 16, 2010 |  5:43 pm

 

"It is with a certain sense of astonishment that we note recent announcements from some of our gubernatorial colleagues that they are uninterested in federal contributions to their high-speed rail systems," Schwarzenegger wrote. "You are more than welcome to redirect that money to California -– where we know how to use it to generate hundreds of thousands of jobs and provide a clean, fast and low-cost way to travel."

 

READ MORE AT:

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/california-politics/2010/11/schwareznegger-tells-obama-administration-well-take-whatever-money-others-dont-want.html

 

 

And another Republican governor who may be rethinking his position....

 

WI Gov.-Elect May Back Track On High-Speed Rail

Wednesday November 17th, 2010, 10:38am

 

Wisconsin Gov.-elect Scott Walker is reportedly reconsidering his opposition to federal funding for high-speed rail. Facing pressure from Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood, and the Wisconsin Democratic Party, Walker now says he may accept the funding to upgrade existing rail lines. Studies have shown that rail usage in Wisconsin has outpaced the national average. From FY 205 to FY 2009 every Wisconsin station's growth outpaced the national growth of 7.1 percent over the same period.

 

READ MORE AT:

http://progressillinois.com/news/content/2010/11/17/wi-may-back-track-high-speed-rail


"Life is 10% what happens to you and 90% how you respond." -- Coach Lou Holtz

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Studies have shown that rail usage in Wisconsin has outpaced the national average. From FY 2005 to FY 2009 every Wisconsin station's growth outpaced the national growth of 7.1 percent over the same period.

 

BTW, Ohio's Amtrak ridership grew 14 percent in FY2010 and 10 percent in FY2009. So there.


"Life is 10% what happens to you and 90% how you respond." -- Coach Lou Holtz

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This is an e-mail being sent to Kasich supporters. A friend said he replied to it by writing "I responded to this message by emphasizing the importance of doing the 3C corridor.  Perhaps more of us should. It can't hurt."

 

Dear XXXXX,

 

We want you to think about joining our team.

 

As we build our team to bring jobs and prosperity back to Ohio, we are hoping that people from all over will consider submitting their resume to us at FixOhioNow.com.  You will also be able to give us your ideas about how we can make Ohio great again. 

 

We look forward to hearing your ideas (http://www.kintera.org/TR.asp?a=hhKRI5OHLdIOKcJ&s=giISJYOAJaLPK4OFLmG&m=ahLSI9MJLfKQLcL).

 

These past few weeks since our victory on Election Day have been full of exciting announcements as we prepare for the January 10th Inauguration and a New Day in Ohio.

 

Please see some of the highlights below:

 

1) In a recent position appointment, I named State Representative Jim Zehringer as the next Director of the Ohio Department of Agriculture. As a farmer from Mercer County, Jim has many years of experience with the wide range of issues that Ohio’s Agriculture industry faces every day. He will also work with our universities to open up research and development within Ohio’s most critical industry.

 

2) As Mary Taylor and I said during the campaign, it will not be business as usual in our administration.  The Columbus Dispatch has an article covering our first public event after the election which I hope you will consider reading here.

 

3) The Columbus Dispatch’s Joe Hallett also had an Op-Ed article about the choices which need to be made for Ohio to be successful.  You can read the piece here.

 

Please remember to consider submitting your resume for us to review (http://www.kintera.org/TR.asp?a=mmK1JkM1IjJTJlL&s=giISJYOAJaLPK4OFLmG&m=ahLSI9MJLfKQLcL).

 

Again, Mary Taylor and I appreciate all of your efforts.  We will not let Ohio down.

 

 

Sincerely,

 

 

John Kasich

Ohio Governor-Elect

www.FixOhioNow.com

 

P. S. Please forward this email to 10 of your friends and family so we can build the team that will fix Ohio.


"Life is 10% what happens to you and 90% how you respond." -- Coach Lou Holtz

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Getting region on board rail plan       

Written by By PETER KUEBECK Sentinel Staff Writer   

Wednesday, 17 November 2010 08:55 

 

TOLEDO - Getting passenger rail in Ohio on the right track was the topic at the Northwest Ohio Passenger Rail Association's (NOPRA) Fall Forum held in the Toledo Club Monday. The event drew representatives from area governments, educational institutions and organizations.

 

"There's probably nothing more timely" than being together for a passenger rail discussion, said Lucas County Commissioner Tina Skeldon Wozniak during her opening remarks.

 

She noted that there had been concern about passenger rail in the state even before Governor-elect John Kasich's recent announcement that he would reject $400 million in federal dollars to support a passenger rail project in the state

 

Full story at: http://www.sent-trib.com/front-page/getting-region-on-board-rail-plan

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Yeesh..

 

Writer can't prove state needs 3C rail

Thursday, November 18, 2010  03:03 AM

 

 

The Columbus Dispatch

 

I respond to the Nov. 10 letter 'Kasich off track on rail's value to Ohio' from John Broz, who contends that Ohio must have passenger-rail service or else.

 

Broz said, "Passenger-rail service is critical to our state's economy." In what way? To what degree? Will our economy fail unless we have it?

 

He also said, "Countless studies show that passenger-rail service creates jobs and businesses ... reduces pollution and reduces our dependency on fossil fuels." What studies? How much of a vested interest do their authors have in seeing passenger rail in Ohio?

 

To what meaningful degree is passenger rail going to reduce pollution and our dependency on fossil fuels? What jobs will it create? How many? For how long?

 

 

http://www.dispatch.com/live/content/editorials/stories/2010/11/18/writer-cant-prove-state-needs-3c-rail.html?sid%3D101

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Editorial: If scrapping rail project, stop now

Published: Wednesday, November 17, 2010

 

The questions surrounding Ohio's "3-C" high-speed rail project no longer appear to be "How fast will the trains go?" and "How will Ohio pay for it?" but "How quickly will the project be terminated?" and "Can the state keep the money and use it elsewhere?"

 

Republican Gov.-elect John Kasich is sticking with plans to scrap high-speed rail, a decision the federal government said will cost the state millions of dollars.

 

Kasich, who succeeds Democratic Gov. Ted Strickland in January, asked Strickland last week to immediately cancel all passenger rail contracts to save taxpayer money, according to The Associated Press. The Columbus Dispatch reported that Kasich wants the Ohio Department of Transportation to terminate contracts with two consultants at up to $25 million to study the environmental effects of the train service and to work with freight railroads on sharing tracks.

 

http://www.news-herald.com/articles/2010/11/17/opinion/nh3301161.txt?viewmode=fullstory

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Yeesh..

 

Writer can't prove state needs 3C rail

Thursday, November 18, 2010 03:03 AM

 

 

The Columbus Dispatch

 

I respond to the Nov. 10 letter 'Kasich off track on rail's value to Ohio' from John Broz, who contends that Ohio must have passenger-rail service or else.

 

Broz said, "Passenger-rail service is critical to our state's economy." In what way? To what degree? Will our economy fail unless we have it?

 

He also said, "Countless studies show that passenger-rail service creates jobs and businesses ... reduces pollution and reduces our dependency on fossil fuels." What studies? How much of a vested interest do their authors have in seeing passenger rail in Ohio?

 

To what meaningful degree is passenger rail going to reduce pollution and our dependency on fossil fuels? What jobs will it create? How many? For how long?

 

 

http://www.dispatch.com/live/content/editorials/stories/2010/11/18/writer-cant-prove-state-needs-3c-rail.html?sid%3D101

 

Well that was absolutely pathetic.  The answers to nearly all of that man's questions are out there he just chooses not to hear them.  Blatant ignorance.

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I keep reading that Kasich plans to give the money back to 'reduce the federal deficit'.... I wonder how he'll try to justify that position if the money does in fact go to another states rail program

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I keep reading that Kasich plans to give the money back to 'reduce the federal deficit'.... I wonder how he'll try to justify that position if the money does in fact go to another states rail program

 

He's really backed himself into a corner on this one.  He's going to come out of this bruised no matter which way he goes.  The Feds aren't going to let him wiggle his way into using the money for anything but passenger rail (with consequential freight improvements).  If he gives the money back it will simply go to another state and about 80% of Ohio will be after his head.  I'm starting to think he's going to take the path of the Wisconsin Governor and take the money with "a few modifications to make it fiscally sound."  Or some nonsense like that.

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^I hope you're right, but I have a feeling he's going to go ahead and give the money back hoping that we won't remember it a few years from now when he's running for reelection. If he does kill it, the democratic party won't need help writing comercials about how he gave $400 Million of OUR money to New York/California/Illinois/etc.

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I keep reading that Kasich plans to give the money back to 'reduce the federal deficit'.... I wonder how he'll try to justify that position if the money does in fact go to another states rail program

 

It's not even an "if".  The $$$ WILL go to another state for their passenger rail projects.

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Not sure if this item from the Charlotte Business Journal has already been posted here. Apologies if it has.

 

"North Carolina and Charlotte seem sure to gain from forthcoming high-speed rail grants.

 

U.S. Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood today gave strong indications North Carolina would benefit from reallocation of $1.2 billion targeted for similar projects in Wisconsin and Ohio. Recent policy statements by newly elected Republican governors in those states made it clear they are opposed to high-speed rail lines. John Kasich and Scott Walker were elected earlier this month in Ohio and Wisconsin, respectively.

 

LaHood, in Charlotte this week to discuss national transit policy, declined to offer additional details. He did say North Carolina stands a good chance of winning some of the reallocated money."

 

http://www.bizjournals.com/charlotte/news/2010/11/17/nc-could-see-new-funds-for-high-speed.html

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http://toledoblade.com/article/20101119/NEWS24/11180339

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Article published November 19, 2010

 

Strickland pledges to keep high-speed rail project

By JIM PROVANCE

BLADE COLUMBUS BUREAU CHIEF

 

COLUMBUS - Gov. Ted Strickland said Thursday he remains governor of Ohio and has no intention of backing away from his policies while he is.

 

He will forge ahead with a $25 million study now under way of a planned passenger rail line despite Gov.-elect John Kasich's intention to kill the project.

 

He called for the Republican-controlled Senate to explain each rejection of casino commission and other appointments he has placed before it.

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From the National Association of Railroad Passengers.

 

"An open letter from Cleveland resident Angie Schmitt to Ohio Governor-elect John Kasich, originally posted on Streetsblog Capitol Hill, has been making the rounds of alternative transportation advocacy blogs, but it is worth reprinting its key points here as it exemplifies how the 3C Corridor trains would improve the lives of ordinary people in ways that just building new or repairing old roads cannot.

 

Here are some excerpts:

    Forgive my confusion, but I fail to see how returning $400 million in federal money is the right decision for a state with our record on unemployment. According to the Ohio Department of Transportation, that infusion of cash would have immediately created 255 jobs. The U.S. Department of Commerce suggested it would result in a total of 8,000 spin-off jobs.

    ...

    ...[A]re you aware that at the time of the latest census, 374,000 Ohio households did not have a private vehicle available to them? This represents more than eight percent of the state’s households.....

 

So, although it seems like your mind is made up on this issue, I still feel compelled to ask you: Please don’t kill 3C rail in Ohio. I was planning to use it to visit my parents in Columbus and, later, if the corridor were to expand as seemed likely, Toledo. It would have made it possible for me to get rid of my car.

 

I’ve done the right thing. I’ve paid my taxes. I’ve tried to help contribute to the state’s future prosperity. When will my needs be considered? Or do I have to move to another state for that?"

 

The original post can be found at http://www.narprail.org/cms/index.php/narpblog/letter_to_kasich/

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From the National Association of Railroad Passengers.

 

"An open letter from Cleveland resident Angie Schmitt to Ohio Governor-elect John Kasich, originally posted on Streetsblog Capitol Hill, has been making the rounds of alternative transportation advocacy blogs, but it is worth reprinting its key points here as it exemplifies how the 3C Corridor trains would improve the lives of ordinary people in ways that just building new or repairing old roads cannot.

 

Here are some excerpts:

    Forgive my confusion, but I fail to see how returning $400 million in federal money is the right decision for a state with our record on unemployment. According to the Ohio Department of Transportation, that infusion of cash would have immediately created 255 jobs. The U.S. Department of Commerce suggested it would result in a total of 8,000 spin-off jobs.

    ...

    ...[A]re you aware that at the time of the latest census, 374,000 Ohio households did not have a private vehicle available to them? This represents more than eight percent of the state’s households.....

 

So, although it seems like your mind is made up on this issue, I still feel compelled to ask you: Please don’t kill 3C rail in Ohio. I was planning to use it to visit my parents in Columbus and, later, if the corridor were to expand as seemed likely, Toledo. It would have made it possible for me to get rid of my car.

 

I’ve done the right thing. I’ve paid my taxes. I’ve tried to help contribute to the state’s future prosperity. When will my needs be considered? Or do I have to move to another state for that?"

 

The original post can be found at http://www.narprail.org/cms/index.php/narpblog/letter_to_kasich/

 

Atta girl Angie !!!!  You rock! :clap: :banger:

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