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Restarting Passenger Rail In Ohio's 3C Corridor

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The original 3C was for high or at least higher speed rail, right? 

Is there any plan on using existing infrastructure to start a passenger train route between the cities now?

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The original 3C was for high or at least higher speed rail, right? 

Is there any plan on using existing infrastructure to start a passenger train route between the cities now?

 

The 3C plan was for conventional speed (79 MPH) passenger service with the intent of using that as the basis for future higher speed service.

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I believe that if 3C had offered "high or at least higher speed," Strickland could have rode it to victory.  Liberals were markedly underwhelmed with the plan and Kasich's campaign hammered the speed issue.

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I believe that if 3C had offered "high or at least higher speed," Strickland could have rode it to victory.  Liberals were markedly underwhelmed with the plan and Kasich's campaign hammered the speed issue.

 

Except that previous plans (dating back decades) for true high-speed rail failed because of concerns about cost and ridership.  It's similar to why the Wisconsin and Florida projects failed.  The opponents say "it's too expensive, let's start more slowly and simply."  Though when we do suggest to start more slowly and simply, like with the 3-C project, then "it's too slow, nobody will ride it, we want real high-speed!" 

 

Maybe there's a middle ground?  Some new high-speed alignments from the start, and upgrades to existing routes where feasible, allowing for moderate speed service.  The danger there is that it will be subject to criticism from both sides.  We may just have to wait for gas prices to rise further so people will be forced to deal with the circumstances.  Being proactive would be best, but we may just have to be reactionary instead.  At least we have the plans and won't have to start all over from scratch again, I hope. 

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I believe that if 3C had offered "high or at least higher speed," Strickland could have rode it to victory.  Liberals were markedly underwhelmed with the plan and Kasich's campaign hammered the speed issue.

 

The cost to upgrade existing ROW to higher-speed rail is significantly greater than the cost to implement conventional speeds. I think it was apparent in the campaign and afterward that Kasich is ideologically opposed to intercity passenger rail, and I'm convinced that if a plan had been presented for higher-speed trains, he would have based his attack on the cost.

 

We've been through that discussion ad nauseam already, and there is no point in re-hashing why Kasich killed it or trying to lay it at the feet of the backers. Read the title of the topic; it's now "Restarting Passenger Rail In Ohio's 3C Corridor." Do you have any on-topic comments to offer?

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Yes.

 

It could be as simple as painting a clear picture of how we get beyond "conventional" after we build it as such. 

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I think the only solution is to make partnerships between municipalities and perhaps add private entities into the mix.

 

The only other way I see is to greatly lower the actual costs of building the infrastructure, which seems unlikely. (This could also be complementary with the first solution.)

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T

The original 3C was for high or at least higher speed rail, right? 

Is there any plan on using existing infrastructure to start a passenger train route between the cities now?

 

The 3C plan was for conventional speed (79 MPH) passenger service with the intent of using that as the basis for future higher speed service.

 

Thanks noozer

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Our old friend James Nash, formerly a reporter with the Columbus Dispatch who did many a hatchet job on 3C as he relied on Republican operatives like Mike Dawson while keeping opposing views out of the paper, has moved on....

 

http://twitter.com/#!/jmnash

 

Turns out he was dating a Republican Party staffer while covering one of the primary campaign issues during the governor's race. An honorable man would have disclosed that to his editor. And an honorable editor would have re-assigned him to a non-political beat.


"Nearly every problem that we have in the USA -- unaffordable health care, prison overpopulation, hyper militarization, climate change, racism, gun violence, poverty, poor education, urban sprawl and others -- cannot be positively addressed because bribery and conflicts of interest are legal under campaign finance laws which protect the uber-wealthy and the narrow self-interests who grossly benefit from our afflictions."

 

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Our old friend James Nash, formerly a reporter with the Columbus Dispatch who did many a hatchet job on 3C as he relied on Republican operatives like Mike Dawson while keeping opposing views out of the paper, has moved on....

 

http://twitter.com/#!/jmnash

 

Turns out he was dating a Republican Party staffer while covering one of the primary campaign issues during the governor's race. An honorable man would have disclosed that to his editor. And an honorable editor would have re-assigned him to a non-political beat.

 

Well, well, well. Honor? At the Dispatch? Nah. BTW, a primitive like me does not Twitter, tweeter, twaddle or whatever. In fact, I just dumped my Facebook page to simplify things. What did the link say?

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I believe that if 3C had offered "high or at least higher speed," Strickland could have rode it to victory.  Liberals were markedly underwhelmed with the plan and Kasich's campaign hammered the speed issue.

 

Except that previous plans (dating back decades) for true high-speed rail failed because of concerns about cost and ridership.  It's similar to why the Wisconsin and Florida projects failed.  The opponents say "it's too expensive, let's start more slowly and simply."  Though when we do suggest to start more slowly and simply, like with the 3-C project, then "it's too slow, nobody will ride it, we want real high-speed!" 

 

Maybe there's a middle ground?  Some new high-speed alignments from the start, and upgrades to existing routes where feasible, allowing for moderate speed service.  The danger there is that it will be subject to criticism from both sides.  We may just have to wait for gas prices to rise further so people will be forced to deal with the circumstances.  Being proactive would be best, but we may just have to be reactionary instead.  At least we have the plans and won't have to start all over from scratch again, I hope. 

 

My own thought is that the line should have been (and could-still has relevance) proposed from the start as a 90 mph top speed/65 mph avg speed corridor with an auto competitive 4:15 Cleveland-Cincinnati running time. This could have been done with remanufactured secondhand equipment, much cheaper than new, allowing money to be plowed into ROW improvements, including more second track and signaling to permit higher speeds. This could have been done for the original $400 million awarded to Ohio. We could revisit this thru a joint powers authority, but that will be much more difficult for the simple reason that the money will have to be raised some other way and the state is implacably opposed.

 

 

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Heck, if it weren't that 39mph stigma, we'd probably have our 3C train today, even with governor psycho (assuming he wants to be reelected). That number really threw so many people off even after it turned out to be on the low side.

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Our old friend James Nash, formerly a reporter with the Columbus Dispatch who did many a hatchet job on 3C as he relied on Republican operatives like Mike Dawson while keeping opposing views out of the paper, has moved on....

http://twitter.com/#!/jmnash

 

Turns out he was dating a Republican Party staffer while covering one of the primary campaign issues during the governor's race. An honorable man would have disclosed that to his editor. And an honorable editor would have re-assigned him to a non-political beat.

 

The Dispatch's lack of honor is no surprise... 

 

 

Heck, if it weren't that 39mph stigma, we'd probably have our 3C train today, even with governor psycho (assuming he wants to be reelected). That number really threw so many people off even after it turned out to be on the low side.

 

I was disappointed the way the Strickland administration and his campaign staff and the Ohio Democratic Party let the Repubs get away with this lie.  And the way they allowed the Repubs to take what was always intended to be the first step of a Republican-created plan (The Ohio Hub plan) and use it as a campaign wedge issue.  It's no wonder the Ohio Dems have been marginalized in state-level politics for so long.  They don't know how to defend themselves and fight back.  They can't seem to fight their way out of a wet paper sack. 

 

 

but that will be much more difficult for the simple reason that the money will have to be raised some other way and the state is implacably opposed.

 

We've been through that discussion ad nauseam already, and there is no point in re-hashing why Kasich killed it or trying to lay it at the feet of the backers. Read the title of the topic; it's now "Restarting Passenger Rail In Ohio's 3C Corridor." Do you have any on-topic comments to offer?

 

If the business community in Ohio would get off their rear ends and make noise like the Wisconsin business community has started doing there, we'd get the train back. 

 

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ODOT paid $1.3 million for passenger-rail effort, won't seek reimbursement from feds

Published: Wednesday, June 15, 2011, 5:10 PM    Updated: Thursday, June 16, 2011, 7:56 AM

  By Tom Breckenridge, The Plain Dealer

 

COLUMBUS,Ohio -- Ohio will not get back the $1.3 million it spent on a scrapped high-speed passenger rail project.

 

Gov. John Kasich axed the proposed passenger-rail link between Cleveland, Columbus and Cincinnati when he took office in January.

 

State transportation officials said they didn't push for reimbursement from the federal government because rail officials expressed "great concern" in reimbursing states where no construction would occur, Melissa Ayers, spokeswoman for the Ohio Department of Transportation, said in an email.

 

READ MORE AT:

http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2011/06/odot_paid_13_million_for_passe.html


"Nearly every problem that we have in the USA -- unaffordable health care, prison overpopulation, hyper militarization, climate change, racism, gun violence, poverty, poor education, urban sprawl and others -- cannot be positively addressed because bribery and conflicts of interest are legal under campaign finance laws which protect the uber-wealthy and the narrow self-interests who grossly benefit from our afflictions."

 

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So where does Ohio stand now on supporting rail? I know there's the advocacy group "All Aboard Ohio," but is there any realistic timeline for getting intercity rail in Ohio?

 

I had a great time visiting Cincy last week, but rush hour on 71 made me beg for a freakin' train to drop from the sky and take me the rest of the way!

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So where does Ohio stand now on supporting rail? I know there's the advocacy group "All Aboard Ohio," but is there any realistic timeline for getting intercity rail in Ohio?

 

I had a great time visiting Cincy last week, but rush hour on 71 made me beg for a freakin' train to drop from the sky and take me the rest of the way!

 

You're new here to UrbanOhio, but you're preaching to the choir in many of your posts  ;)

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On certain days when I-71 rush hour is bad in Cincinnati, it's faster to either cut through Montgomery or Blue Ash on the back roads.

 

I'd rather have commuter/light rail out there than anything. No amount of widening will stop the exodus of suburbanites further out :(

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So where does Ohio stand now on supporting rail? I know there's the advocacy group "All Aboard Ohio," but is there any realistic timeline for getting intercity rail in Ohio?

 

I had a great time visiting Cincy last week, but rush hour on 71 made me beg for a freakin' train to drop from the sky and take me the rest of the way!

 

You're new here to UrbanOhio, but you're preaching to the choir in many of your posts  ;)

 

I was in Cleveland a couple weeks back for the Reds/Indians game.  The entire group I was with kept talking about how great a link between these two cities would be.  I obviously agree, but was surprised it wasn't me bringing it up in conversation.  Shame on Kasich forever on that one!  We will get it eventually, but it sure would've been nice to see the benefits of it over the next four years.  Especially with the amount of development and energy going on in the cores of these gorgeous city centers.  This was a game changer for Ohio in the minds of many!  Keep fighting for it!

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So where does Ohio stand now on supporting rail? I know there's the advocacy group "All Aboard Ohio," but is there any realistic timeline for getting intercity rail in Ohio?

 

I had a great time visiting Cincy last week, but rush hour on 71 made me beg for a freakin' train to drop from the sky and take me the rest of the way!

 

You're new here to UrbanOhio, but you're preaching to the choir in many of your posts  ;)

 

I was in Cleveland a couple weeks back for the Reds/Indians game.  The entire group I was with kept talking about how great a link between these two cities would be.  I obviously agree, but was surprised it wasn't me bringing it up in conversation.  Shame on Kasich forever on that one!  We will get it eventually, but it sure would've been nice to see the benefits of it over the next four years.  Especially with the amount of development and energy going on in the cores of these gorgeous city centers.  This was a game changer for Ohio in the minds of many!  Keep fighting for it!

 

I'm glad to hear that you had the same sentiments I had visiting Cincy while visiting Cleveland. (And I was actually at two of those Reds beat downs ;)).

 

Was a study ever done to get an estimate on how many more people would do CLE-Cincy or vice verse if rail were created? Thus, an estimate could be made on the economic impact of these tourists or frequent visitors. I know opponents said nobody would ride it, but I think the "cranky old man" voices were simply louder than our modest "yeah, we'd ride it" voices.

 

And does anyone know where rail stands now in Ohio? I think I read on here that Cincy has to do more voting for their street car and that a route might be created from Youngstown/Warren to Pittsburgh.

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If you want to get current with what's happening with passenger rail in Ohio, you might want to consider joining All Aboard Ohio .... http://allaboardohio.org/home/

 

They also have most of the information and studies that were conducted during the most recent effort to re-establish passenger rail service in the 3C.

 

You're pretty much spot on in tagging some of the opposition as "cranky old men".... but it was mostly political idealogues who never let the facts stand in the way of what they espoused.

 

 

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If you want to get current with what's happening with passenger rail in Ohio, you might want to consider joining All Aboard Ohio .... http://allaboardohio.org/home/

 

They also have most of the information and studies that were conducted during the most recent effort to re-establish passenger rail service in the 3C.

 

You're pretty much spot on in tagging some of the opposition as "cranky old men".... but it was mostly political idealogues who never let the facts stand in the way of what they espoused.

 

 

I've tried signing up for their enewsletter, but I always get an error... I'll keep checking in, though! Is there anything being done to promote it on a grand scale? I think Positively Cleveland should work with Experience Columbus and Cincy's tourism bureau to gain support among the 3-C's.

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Get in touch with KJP via personal message on this site.  He can help you with the All Aboard Ohio stuff.

 

Agreed on getting the various convention & visitor bureaus involved.... but don't forget the young professional groups in the 3C's (and Dayton), local Chambers of Commerce.  But ultimately, it's going to take a shift in political will at the state level.

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Get in touch with KJP via personal message on this site.  He can help you with the All Aboard Ohio stuff.

 

Agreed on getting the various convention & visitor bureaus involved.... but don't forget the young professional groups in the 3C's (and Dayton), local Chambers of Commerce.  But ultimately, it's going to take a shift in political will at the state level.

 

Will do!

 

And yeah... always with the damn political will! I've made a promise with myself that when I grow into a cranky old man and question what young professionals want to do, that I will just shut the Hell up and let them take over. They keep holding us back so that we catch up to more progressive states as they move onto something else. We're like the Wile Coyote of states!

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So where does Ohio stand now on supporting rail? I know there's the advocacy group "All Aboard Ohio," but is there any realistic timeline for getting intercity rail in Ohio?

 

 

Ohio is not going to undertake any passenger rail development projects for the next four years, at least. If anything happens, it will be because of a multi-state or congressional effort involving improved Amtrak services on existing east-west routes.

 

I've tried signing up for their enewsletter, but I always get an error... I'll keep checking in, though! Is there anything being done to promote it on a grand scale? I think Positively Cleveland should work with Experience Columbus and Cincy's tourism bureau to gain support among the 3-C's.

 

The enewsletter is no longer being published as we've gone back to a more regular print schedule of the old "newspaper" version of the newsletter. Those will be posted on the website after a few months pass by, however. If you want more up-to-date information, please subscribe to the newsletter "Ohio Passenger Rail News" by joining All Aboard Ohio. You can also get information from our Facebook and Twitter accounts, which we have new volunteers working on to keep these more up-to-date.


"Nearly every problem that we have in the USA -- unaffordable health care, prison overpopulation, hyper militarization, climate change, racism, gun violence, poverty, poor education, urban sprawl and others -- cannot be positively addressed because bribery and conflicts of interest are legal under campaign finance laws which protect the uber-wealthy and the narrow self-interests who grossly benefit from our afflictions."

 

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CLEJoe wrote:

Was a study ever done to get an estimate on how many more people would do CLE-Cincy or vice verse if rail were created? Thus, an estimate could be made on the economic impact of these tourists or frequent visitors. I know opponents said nobody would ride it, but I think the "cranky old man" voices were simply louder than our modest "yeah, we'd ride it" voices.

 

There was a detailed economic impact analysis done of the original Ohio Hub Plan in 2007.  Tourism was included in the analysis.  The original Ohio Hub Plan included the 3-C, CLE-Pittsburgh, CLE-Toledo-Detroit, and CLE-Buffalo-Toronto.  This was available at www.ohiohub.com, but I just tried it and it appears ODOT has removed public access from the site-- it now requires a password.  The Kasich administration must be afraid of letting people see the Ohio Hub documents.  I'm glad I downloaded them all before Kasich took over.

 

 

 

 

 

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Good thing we have a free state run by a government that is open and accessible to its people. Whoops... I must be thinking of a different state in another country.


"Nearly every problem that we have in the USA -- unaffordable health care, prison overpopulation, hyper militarization, climate change, racism, gun violence, poverty, poor education, urban sprawl and others -- cannot be positively addressed because bribery and conflicts of interest are legal under campaign finance laws which protect the uber-wealthy and the narrow self-interests who grossly benefit from our afflictions."

 

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CLEJoe wrote:

Was a study ever done to get an estimate on how many more people would do CLE-Cincy or vice verse if rail were created? Thus, an estimate could be made on the economic impact of these tourists or frequent visitors. I know opponents said nobody would ride it, but I think the "cranky old man" voices were simply louder than our modest "yeah, we'd ride it" voices.

 

There was a detailed economic impact analysis done of the original Ohio Hub Plan in 2007.  Tourism was included in the analysis.  The original Ohio Hub Plan included the 3-C, CLE-Pittsburgh, CLE-Toledo-Detroit, and CLE-Buffalo-Toronto.  This was available at www.ohiohub.com, but I just tried it and it appears ODOT has removed public access from the site-- it now requires a password.  The Kasich administration must be afraid of letting people see the Ohio Hub documents.  I'm glad I downloaded them all before Kasich took over.

 

You have got to be kidding me! They know those reports are convincing.

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So, I was in Midway, Kentucky yesterday - the midpoint for the the Lexington & Ohio Railroad that still runs daily freight trips between Louisville and Lexington. The line's operator is now RJ Corman, and so we got into the discussion of passenger rail at two shops. I think I pointed this out maybe a while back, but RJ Corman is looking to start up passenger service between the two cities, on trackage he leases from CSX. I don't think I posted the most recent articles, but it looks like money that was to be used to widen Interstate 64 to three-lanes (in each direction) may now be diverted to straighten curves, and do other track maintenance to allow passenger trails to run up to 70 MPH.

 

Then, one of them says, "At least we don't have that jackass of a governor Kasich running out ship."

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Sherman, do you know of any news coverage of this? I'd love to share that news with others.


"Nearly every problem that we have in the USA -- unaffordable health care, prison overpopulation, hyper militarization, climate change, racism, gun violence, poverty, poor education, urban sprawl and others -- cannot be positively addressed because bribery and conflicts of interest are legal under campaign finance laws which protect the uber-wealthy and the narrow self-interests who grossly benefit from our afflictions."

 

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^

I wonder if this is related to that Franfort econ dev guys effort to restart passenger service between Louisville and Lexington.  This guy or office things it would be of benefit to Franffort to get the service running.  I think I posted on this elsewhere.

 

Then, one of them says, "At least we don't have that jackass of a governor Kasich running out ship."

 

Ouch! 

 

 

 

 

 

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Kasich shuns buses, trains

Published: Sun, June 26, 2011 @ 12:00 a.m.

By Ken Prendergast

 

Special to The Vindicator

 

Our dear governor sure has lots of interesting things to say. For example, he said he wants Ohioans to get on his bus or he’ll run them over with it. Odd thing is, Gov. John Kasich doesn’t like buses; doesn’t like trains much either, as we all know. He doesn’t seem to like any alternatives to driving in Ohio, except one.

 

The April 16, 2011, Dayton Daily News reported that the governor used the state’s planes for 16 in-state, and four out-of-state trips in his first 81 days in office. It took his predecessor 13 months to equal Kasich’s plane usage.

 

For advocates of better trains and transit, that wasn’t the most telling part of that article. It was yet another memorable Kasich quote: “There is no doubt about it — I can’t get to all these places if I’m not able to fly.”

 

Read more at: http://www.vindy.com/news/2011/jun/26/kasich-shuns-buses-trains/?newswatch

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Well written piece, Ken. 

 

Good use of statistics and quotes, as well.  I especially liked the quote from the person at the Ford Motor Company.  That should fit nicely up the butts of those who claim that people always long for the "freedom" of their automobiles and wouldn't dream of using other options if they were available.

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What is the context of the Ford quote? You make it sound anti-auto, but I can't imagine something of that nature would come from a Ford person.

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What is the context of the Ford quote? You make it sound anti-auto, but I can't imagine something of that nature would come from a Ford person.

 

It's just an auto exec acknowledging that younger people don't have the same urgency about owning a car as their older siblings or parents..... something they (the automakers) are also seeing in the demographics of their sales.  Younger people are much more engaged with their electronic devices and they want transportation that allows them the freedom and time to use those devices (laptops, smart phones, etc).

 

A car does not allow for that kind of activity...at least not safely. 

 

Kasich thinks he can just declare something "cool" and it will be so.  He and his people are so completely out of touch with the wants and needs of upcoming generations that it is laughable.  He might as well show up for his next public event in a white disco suit..... he is that out of touch.

 

What's cool is this.....

 

http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/world/2011/06/27/high.speed.train.cnn?&hpt=hp_c2

 

....Something about which our esteemed Governor is clueless.

 

 

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^ "Kasich thinks he can just declare something "cool" and it will be so.  He and his people are so completely out of touch with the wants and needs of upcoming generations that it is laughable.  He might as well show up for his next public event in a white disco suit..... he is that out of touch."

 

I could not agree more. He is also totally out of touch with existing generations...and/or those who are unable to drive, do not wish to drive, etc...  for whatever reason. And after reading the article... I still shudder to think ONE GUY has the power to impose his dogma on an entire state!

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Sherman, do you know of any news coverage of this? I'd love to share that news with others.

 

Let me see if I saved it in my personal archives.

 

The thing about our proposal in Kentucky, is that it uses a line that RJ Corman owns. It's substantially easier to do improvements to the line - which carries freight four times a day at peak, when you have a cooperative short line operator than a Class One operator. Plus, Corman has other passenger interests - he runs the Bardstown Dinner Train, has proposed one for Lexington (going to Louisville and back), and proposed the White Sulfur Spgs., Wv. - Lexington, Ky. line (Kenneland special from The Greenbrier)!

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RJ Corman owns or leases several lines in Ohio, but none of them are rail corridors that would generate a lot of passenger traffic.  They are mostly truncated, rural shortlines that serve either agribusinesses in small communities or local industries.

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Heres what I know about a Lexington/Louisville proposal, though the article says the line would extend beyond Lex to Winchester

 

One Mans Train of Thought

 

...its more a local/commuter type concept, not HSR or express service, that is discussed.

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July/August 2011

 

The Case for Not-Quite-So-High-Speed Rail

The bad news: Republicans have torpedoed plans for American bullet trains. The good news: The Obama administration is quietly building a slower, but potentially much better, rail system.

By Phillip Longman

 

This principle is also illustrated by Amtrak’s highly successful “Cascades” service on the 187-mile line between Portland and Seattle. The Spanish-designed Talgo “tilt” train sets look futuristic, and with their on-board bistros and comfy chairs they are a joy to ride. But because they run on conventional track through mountainous country shared by freight trains, their current top speed is only 79 mph, and their average speed is just 53.

 

Still, that’s enough to make taking the train faster than driving, and ridership has swelled to more than 700,000 passengers a year. Using federal stimulus dollars plus state spending, work is currently under way to boost top train speeds to 110-125 mph, simply by adding better signaling and more sidings to let freight trains get out of the way. This incremental investment will also boost reliability and allow for increased frequency, which will further bump up ridership. But numerous studies show there is no point in making trains go faster than 125 mph on a segment this short because of the great cost involved and the limited gains to total trip times. Moreover, if a new bullet train line were built between Portland and Seattle, the tremendous cost of its construction would require fares too high for all but well-heeled business travelers to afford.

 

Read more at: http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/magazine/julyaugust_2011/features/the_case_for_notquite_sohighsp030492.php?page=3

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it is crazy that there is no rail service between cleveland, columbus, and cincinnati.

 

i would kill for a rail link between cleveland cincinnati, being able to go from downtown to downtown. it doesnt even have to be high speed, i would love something that took about the same time as driving and had reasonable fares. taking a plane doesnt make much sense and it would sure beat the hell out of greyhound.

 

what are the chances of getting amtrak to run basic service on existing lines? KJP or anyone with expertise what are the technicalities in running passenger rail between the 3-Cs, ie top speeds and what type of equipment. which trains could run into tower city and the airport?

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KJP is away, but I'll take a shot at this. Since Gov. Kasich made killing the 3-C trains a high profile issue, I rather doubt we will see any moves by the state to resurrect the issue. In fact, quite the opposite. When they killed the 3-C, they also killed the study process that had been ongoing for some time. That means that any future governor will have to restart the entire process from scratch and that might take a couple of years under the best of circumstances.

 

So add it up:

 

a) Four years (at least) of Gov. Kasich.

b) Two years to restudy, assuming a go-ahead is given by an incoming governor.

c) Two additional years to do trackwork, signaling, stations, maintenance facitilies and aqcuire equipment.

 

We are probably talking ten years---under the best circumstances.

 

Had we not lost 3-C, we would be well into final engineering and construction would probably have been underway next year. Now we are probably talking about at least ten years with the loss of this initiative. This is the legacy of John Kasich.

 

As far as Amtrak is concerned, they have a lot of major issues to confront. They will not be leading any effort to bring service to Ohio.

 

Sorry to be such a pessimist, but the facts speak for themselves. If you want trains you'll have to move to a place where they already exist.

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yea *sigh*

 

i guess i was just hoping that despite the HSR plan being killed we could get something running without k-sick. amtrak does have issues yes, but there has been increased ridership and more investment coming in states not named ohio. you would get riders....even just looking at the demographic of college students throughout ohio. megabus does not go between cleveland cincinnati currently and greyhound costs at least $40 one way. amtrak could be competitive in this market. something like the cascades line that operates between vancouver, bc and eugene, or would be good. nice interior with comfortable seats, wifi, business class, full power at your seat, and food on the train. i would take weekend trips to cities in ohio if this existed.

 

with the tearing down of our cities, lack of forward thinking, and poor investment in public transit i may be forced to move

 

no one man should have all that power

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Hello, I'm back from overseas. When I returned, one of the items in the mail was an article forwarded to me by a past president of All Aboard Ohio. In it was an interview of Kasich in which he again decried the 3C trains' "40 mph speed" and that it would have been a drain on the state's budget -- even though revenues from the station-area development Special Improvement District at the Riverside train station would have produced more than sufficient revenues to offset any operating losses from the trains.

 

CSX killed the 3C trains. Plain and simple. CSX, the owner of the tracks north of Columbus to Cleveland, felt the 3C trains would have caused too much conflict with CSX's growing freight traffic and all the investments it was making associated with its National Gateway project. Perhaps they were right, but that's no reason to kill something. It is reason to adjust the plans, including possibly starting the train services between Cincinnati and Columbus.

 

But BuckeyeB is correct. You won't see any progress as long as Kasich is governor. "Passenger train" has become a four-letter word around him and those of like mind. When a businessman I know of spoke with one of Kasich's top advisers about two weeks ago about doing "something" with passenger rail in Ohio, his response was "Is there any place where these things are succeeding?" That's why the businessman contacted me, to supply him with with media reports of passenger rail successes. I didn't have to look far for them. Most are listed here on UrbanOhio in the "what other states are doing with rail" section. I encourage all of you to share these stories with your elected officials, too.


"Nearly every problem that we have in the USA -- unaffordable health care, prison overpopulation, hyper militarization, climate change, racism, gun violence, poverty, poor education, urban sprawl and others -- cannot be positively addressed because bribery and conflicts of interest are legal under campaign finance laws which protect the uber-wealthy and the narrow self-interests who grossly benefit from our afflictions."

 

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This what happens when you don't know enough about an issue to understand what you're saying "no" to. To Kasich & Co. a train is a train is a train....

 

What California has built vs what California has planned

Ohio's 79-mph 3C trains would be a conventional service like what California has successfully had since 1990

 

Pragmatic politicians keep their options open. Ideologues dig deeper trenches for themselves, often twisting the facts to protect themselves from criticism of their bad decisions. Gov. John Kasich is doing such today by patting himself on the back with the help of false information in attempt to show he did the right thing by killing Ohio's 3C Corridor project. Trains traveling at 79 mph would have linked one of nation's most populous travel corridors currently lacking passenger trains, and would have been wholly financially supported by revenues from Special Improvement Districts in just one city -- Riverside. Although two other cities, Sharonville and Springfield, also had station-area developments in the works.

 

Yet Kasich continues to try to derail the fact express by comparing the 3C Corridor to California's high-speed rail project.

 

Yet California has already built what Kasich has said "no" to -- his so-called "slow train." CalTrans has invested $2 billion from a voter-approved 1990 bond issue for infrastructure, stations and train equipment to provide frequent train services on existing freight rail corridors which has spurred billions of dollars of private investment in station-area real estate developments.

 

All of this now exists in California:

 

++ 36 daily trains for the Bay Area-Sacramento Capitol Corridor with average speeds of 45 mph and FY2010 ridership of 1.6 million (#3 in the nation).

++ 24 daily trains for the Santa Barbara-LA-San Diego Pacific Surfliner Corridor with average speeds of 50 mph and FY2010 ridership of 2.6 million (ranked #2 in the nation behind Northeast Corridor).

++ 12 daily trains for the Bay Area-Bakersfield San Joaquin Corridor with average speeds of 55 mph and FY2010 ridership of 1 million (ranked #4 in the nation).

 

California's track record of success with its conventional passenger rail services is shown here:

capcorridor_09_Performance_Report.jpg

 

What California is doing now is taking the next step to high-speed rail. A 150- to 220-mph corridor that nearly two dozen nations throughout the rest of the developed and developing world have built or are building after they, also, first maxed-out the physical potential of their conventional rail services yet created a political constituency for the next, more aggressive step of high-speed rail. Indeed, no place on the planet has yet built high-speed rail without first having a successful conventional passenger rail service.

 

Ohio's 3C Corridor plan was to build that conventional service that California has already built, which is common nationwide and growing with record ridership thanks to the investment and support of 15 states throughout America. Those states seek to offer a competitive edge to businesses and to offer more attractive, cost-saving services to new residents and visitors. Ohio seems to be content with a mediocre, heavily subsidized highway system that fosters suburban sprawl and urban decay while failing to capture the imagination of young adults fleeing to places that offer choices of trains and transit which foster energetic cities.

 

424.jpg

Above, the Emeryville, CA station-area development. Read more about this and other station-area developments here: http://transitorienteddevelopment.dot.ca.gov/miscellaneous/NewHome.jsp

 

Increasingly, Ohio is getting older and poorer. And both groups are being isolated by a one-size-fits-all transportation system and leaders who fear change only because they do not understand it. I encourage them to learn and will do what I can to help them learn. But continued entrenchment by falsely re-writing the definitions of high-speed rail in order to save face is not a good way to move Ohio's economy forward and to keep its citizens and businesses here, let alone attract new ones.

 

Further entrenchment in the highways-only status quo, as is evidenced below, is not helpful for Ohio's future........

 

KJP

_______________________________

 

http://blog.kasichforohio.com/?p=4182&msource=JK082211EM1

 

Lima News: Rail Price Racing Along at High Speed

 

August 17, 2011 | Tags: 3C Rail, Federal Money, Governor John Kasich, Ohio Budget, Ohio Economy, Ohio Rail — admin @ 10:11 am

Even before taking office, Gov. Kasich asked the federal government to reroute grant money earmarked for the 3C rail program in Ohio and divert it to improving infrastructure across the state. When the federal government denied his request, Gov. Kasich declined to take the grant money altogether…the reason: because it was going to become a money-sink that would cost Ohio taxpayers far more money over time. As the Lima News reports, California taxpayers were led into the trap and could be on the hook for over $6.8 Billion dollars! Read more below:

 

Amid a stagnant economy, a staggering stock market, governments at all levels straining to stay in the black and taxpayers already burdened to the hilt, the last thing Ohio needs is a commitment to spend even more. Given that, Gov. John Kasich is looking like a genius for refusing federal high-speed rail money.

 

One needs look only at California — which Ohio government more and more had begun to resemble — to see the folly of government-subsidized high-speed rail. The Golden State’s cost for a relatively small piece of the state’s overall high-speed rail pipe dream has almost doubled. The federal government isn’t picking up any of that doubling in cost, leaving already strapped California taxpayers to pay the bill.

 

Kasich and Wisconsin’s Republican governor, Scott Walker, took some heat, particularly from Democrats and proponents of subsidizing every thinkable alternative mode of transportation for refusing a combined $1.2 billion for high-speed rail. Kasich and Ohio legislative Republicans said Ohio would be on the hook for future spending to subsidize rail at a time when it barely could pay its current bills. California is proving Kasich right.

 

The latest setback for this multibillion-dollar boondoggle is the rail agency’s own “adjustment” of the cost for a small segment of the 400-plus-mile system, our sister paper The Orange Country Register reported. It is believed to cost up to $13.9 billion — $6.8 billion more than the $7.1 billion estimate — to construct tracks in the middle of the state from Merced to Bakersfield.

 

And

 

If ever there was a clear-cut case to avoid wasting billions of taxpayer dollars, this is it. The good news for Californians is that the train can be stopped before massive spending begins next year when construction on the train to nowhere is scheduled to commence. The better news for Ohioans is that Kasich stopped any such boondoggle from happening in this state before it ever had a chance to leave the federal station.

 

You can get more details from the original article here....

http://www.limaohio.com/articles/billion-70091-rail-cost.html?cb=1313422485


"Nearly every problem that we have in the USA -- unaffordable health care, prison overpopulation, hyper militarization, climate change, racism, gun violence, poverty, poor education, urban sprawl and others -- cannot be positively addressed because bribery and conflicts of interest are legal under campaign finance laws which protect the uber-wealthy and the narrow self-interests who grossly benefit from our afflictions."

 

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just throwing out a few ideas here and im sure folks have probably thought of these already but it helps me cope with the lose of the 3C  :-(.

 

Can we get some kind of non-amtrak passenger rail going in Ohio that is completely independent of the state?  At least that way there is some momentum, at least.  A couple possibilities:

 

1.  Commuter rail startup in CBus Dayton or Cincy; or even between dayton and Cincy, for example.  Columbus casino to airport would be an obvious one too.

 

2.  Excursion rail startup in CBus or Cincy similar to CVSR.

 

3.  Heritage rail trips that are tourist driven.  How cool would it be to have a steam engine or some old coaches roll up to the Columbus Convention center, for example.

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Hey treesketcher, those are good ideas, and I think some sort of rail connection between Cincinnati and Dayton would be a great place to start.  The thing about excursions/heritage rail trips though is that they sound easy, but the legal/logistical hurdles are immense.  A little while back I got to have dinner with the owner of the Cincinnati Dinner Train, as well as the Midwest Regional Vice President of RailAmerica, and the General Manager of Indiana & Ohio Railway.  I got some fascinating insight into just how difficult it is to plan an excursion route, due to the horribly fragmented ownership of the various rail lines.  Even for a small regional operation like I&O, ownership is all over the place.  They own the tracks and signals, structures, etc., but a different entity owns the actual land (whether SORTA, CSX, themselves, or a subsidiary) and leases it to them.  In other instances, there are special trackage rights on unaffiliated railroads, sometimes as short as a few hundred feet, like through yards or at switching locations. 

 

What this all boils down to is that every single independent railroad owner and/or operator has different rules and regulations based on their insurance coverage and liability concerns.  A single bridge owned by some stick-in-the-mud who's not covered for passenger liability and won't allow any passenger traffic over said bridge requires that the excursion train let off all their passengers and bus them to a point farther down the line.  That's just one example of a problem situation, but there's also freight conflicts, and a plethora of other hurdles.  Unless you can get a continuous route that's operated by a friendly parent railroad, it's a monumental task.  It kind of makes the notion of nationalizing the rail system and leasing out operations to the private companies, like is done in many parts of Europe, seem like a decent idea.

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great insight, I appreciate it.  I really think there is great demand for this, at least where I live in Cbus, and could be successful if those issues could be worked through.  Bummer there are so many additional barriers to the obvious physical and market-driven ones.  Just being the optimist, theres got to be some place where something like this might work. 

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I've continued to urge Central Ohioans to pursue an introductory, L-shaped regional commuter rail service on existing freight tracks, from Delaware to the north, Newark to the east, and downtown Columbus at the elbow. CSX owns half of the right of way, which makes this a little complicated right off the bat (CSX is very anti-passenger). But the CSX line to Delaware along I-71 is a duplicate of another CSX line to the west of the Scioto, so the few CSX freight trains along the I-71 line might be detoured to it. In fact, during COTA's North Corridor light rail plan, COTA was ready to build for CSX the infrastructure necessary to vacate that rail line in exchange for taking ownership of it all the way to Galion (near Mansfield).

 

And as for the route from Columbus to Newark, CSX had a 50% percent ownership stake in it until 2004 when the Ohio Central acquired it (The State of Ohio owned the other 50%). About 10-15 years ago, the Ohio Central proposed operating a commuter rail service over this route but few others seemed interested in it. I hope that's still not the case.

 

A regional rail service on this L-shaped corridor would provide a significant physical and political foundation on which to build a larger regional system as well as statewide passenger rail services since the regional commuter rail and cross-state intercity passenger rail equipment, technologies and facilities are compatible.

 

Someone needs to approach COTA and MORPC to see what, if anything they're willing to do to help convene, foster or otherwise assist such a project. If some real estate, transportation construction and railcar interests got together, they would be a powerful influence to get this effort moving forward.


"Nearly every problem that we have in the USA -- unaffordable health care, prison overpopulation, hyper militarization, climate change, racism, gun violence, poverty, poor education, urban sprawl and others -- cannot be positively addressed because bribery and conflicts of interest are legal under campaign finance laws which protect the uber-wealthy and the narrow self-interests who grossly benefit from our afflictions."

 

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Columbus currently has the best layout for for a super-regional rail system (Delaware (or even Marion) to the north, Newark to the east, and Chillicothe to the south, and eventually Springfield/Dayton to the west). All are small cities with some semblance of urban cores.

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