KJP Posted February 5, 2006 Share Posted February 5, 2006 "Gee, isn't Brokeback Mountain an arts flick?" --typical suburban resident “What is the meaning of this city? Do you huddle close together because you love each other?” Or “We all dwell together to make money from each other”? -- TS Eliot’s The Rock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blinker12 Posted February 5, 2006 Share Posted February 5, 2006 ^Exactly! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3231 Posted February 5, 2006 Share Posted February 5, 2006 I've wondered the same thing. Frankly, I don't think an art theater makes sense in the Flats. But, I also think Wolstein may have a more liberal interpretation of "art theater" than we do. He's probably envisioning something like Crocker Park, where they show higher-end mainstream stuff with the occasional "independent" flick tossed in. Blinker, That makes sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cincykidbc1 Posted February 5, 2006 Share Posted February 5, 2006 Holy crap!!! I didn't know I lived in Michigan. :drunk: Get it? Detroit? Oh, never mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KJP Posted February 5, 2006 Share Posted February 5, 2006 ^ You should know that you have the best avatar here “What is the meaning of this city? Do you huddle close together because you love each other?” Or “We all dwell together to make money from each other”? -- TS Eliot’s The Rock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blinker12 Posted February 8, 2006 Share Posted February 8, 2006 Capital ideas may lead to Capitol Theatre makeover By JAY MILLER 9:24 am, February 6, 2006 Some of the most complicated financing deals these days are being done by community development corporations, the nonprofit groups that are helping to rebuild neighborhoods in cities such as Cleveland. One such effort finally may reopen the Capitol Theatre on Cleveland’s West Side. Jeff Ramsey, executive director of the Detroit Shoreway Community Development Organization, said the group is getting closer to restoring the theater on West 65th Street, thanks to some creative financing. Mr. Ramsey said it will take a little more than $4.5 million to restore the 1920s-era movie house, and he believes Detroit Shoreway will be able to offer investors significant tax credits on almost every penny of that investment, either as tax credits or through a conservation easement. The tax credits and easement are creatures of the Internal Revenue Code, which allows investors to reduce their taxes by investing in older or low-income neighborhoods. Because of the credits, equity investments are less risky, and loans can be made at lower rates. Jonathan Forman, owner of the Cleveland Cinemas chain, said he has discussed the Capitol Theatre with Mr. Ramsey and would consider operating the movie house should the restoration program succeed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blinker12 Posted February 10, 2006 Share Posted February 10, 2006 Some exciting details to report on the Arts District. Regarding the Detroit Avenue streetscape improvements, already funded by NOACA (to the tune of $2 million, I believe, though I don't have the exact figures with me): - New sidewalks and curbs will be built all along Detroit between W. 58th and W. 73rd, and new street lights installed - Detroit will be narrowed from 48 feet to 42 feet in that span; sidewalks will be widened and curbside parking eliminated - The street will be further narrowed to 36 feet at 65th Street, to make room for a piazza with new brick paving - Overheard wires will buried (would have thought this would push the cost way above $2 million but who knows...) Other random developments in the district: - Detroit Shoreway is in serious negotiations with a local coffee retailer (not Metro Joe's, thank God -- they're dropping like flies) to open a new coffee shop at Detroit and 65th, in the old dollar store space. - The old Craciun funeral home site at 61st and Detroit has a new owner who wants to build townhouses on the site. Detroit Shoreway is trying to talk him into street-level retail with condos above. - Exact same situation at the old factory site next to Club Azteca, at 58th and Detroit. The building is to be demolished, with new mixed use buildings to replace it. (Honestly, the building itself is nothing special, and it's set back from the street.) Before anyone asks -- no timeline on these last few items. The streetscape improvements are supposed to start next year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blinker12 Posted February 10, 2006 Share Posted February 10, 2006 Also new: Near West Theatre will not occupy any part of the old Lou's building. They will be entirely contained in a new building to be constructed in an empty lot behind Lou's on W. 67th. Richard Fleischman has been retained as the architect. (I've seen some renderings, but the design is still very much in process.) This new building has always been in the plans, but there was talk for a while of connecting to Lou's and using the ground floor as a lobby. Instead, Detroit Shoreway is looking for a restaurant to occupy the ground-floor space; NWT would collect the rent from this tenant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KJP Posted February 10, 2006 Share Posted February 10, 2006 Awesome stuff. Mind if I pass this along to my partner in crime at the West Side Sun? Or is it too soon? “What is the meaning of this city? Do you huddle close together because you love each other?” Or “We all dwell together to make money from each other”? -- TS Eliot’s The Rock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StapHanger Posted February 10, 2006 Share Posted February 10, 2006 Awesome update, Blinker, all very cool. It's great having narcs to give us the scoop from the inside. Is there any concern about removing the curbside parking? I can't imagine the businesses are so excited about that part. Smarter folks than I have pointed this out in other contexts, but that row of parked cars is also a useful barrier between the sidewalk and the moving traffic-not sure I am excited to see it go. I am definitely psyched about the widened sidewalks though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Map Boy Posted February 10, 2006 Share Posted February 10, 2006 Agreed, Blinker...great updates! The curbside parking, as you know, was one of my first questions for you. How will businesses react? Also, as Straphanger mentioned, this is an ages-old tool for buffering pedestrian from auto traffic. Interesting, nonetheless. I like the sidewalk widening and especially the focus on W. 65th as a "place." This is one of Cleveland's most unique and historic intersections and the hub of a vibrant neighborhood. It should be treated as such! Cleveland Cinema's interest in the Capitol Theatre appears to me to be a good sign, as does the creative financing scheme. You must be learning a lot about these things! DSCDO is one of the most innovative and effective CDCs in this regard. Also, I thought that the NWT was going to have some sort of office space in the old Lou's Furniture building, but that may have just been the lobby. I'm surprised that they wouldn't still want to retain this, even with a restaurant front (which I think is a great idea). What will the lack of a Detroit Ave. facade do for their visibility and for the street's activity? It all remains to be seen! One last question...somewhere in there, are there plans to remove that awful dumpster dock/bay from West 67th, north of Detroit? I can't believe that's allowed! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blinker12 Posted February 10, 2006 Share Posted February 10, 2006 Regarding the loss of street parking: That is actually something that is being discussed with local business owners. I think the general feeling is that enhancing the street's walkability will generate more pedestrian traffic, thereby making up for the loss of parking. With the widening of the sidewalks, too, traffic will be slowed and the need for a "buffer" from the street will be less acute. The whole plan aims to give priority to pedestrians rather than cars, particularly at the 65th/Detroit intersection. MGD, exactly what dumpster dock are you talking about? As for NWT's visibility: The hope is to acquire the one-story TRD Leather building, just to the east of Lou's, demolish it and create a plaza in front of NWT's new building, thereby giving it greater visibility from Detroit. But even if that didn't happen, the new building would be easily seen from Detroit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
X Posted February 10, 2006 Share Posted February 10, 2006 A plaza? I think it's a bad idea to get rid of an existing business to create a plaza in an area that doesn't have the pedestrian activity to keep that plaza active. Besides that, I think that the goings on in Gordon Square are very exciting! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Map Boy Posted February 10, 2006 Share Posted February 10, 2006 Is the leather shop still open? I like the idea of a plaza that creates another node of activity on Detroit. The only thing I'd miss is the opportunity for a marquee on Detroit for the new theater! The dumpster in question is on W.67th, attached to the Gordon Sq. building, and hangs over the sidewalk on the east side of the street, just north of Detroit. I've grumbled at it several times in passing, but it's always there the next time I come back! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blinker12 Posted February 10, 2006 Share Posted February 10, 2006 I'll try to ask around about that dumpster. Yes, the leather shop is still operating. I see your point in a way about getting rid of it... but keep in mind, there's another leather store just a couple blocks east on Detroit (next to the Romanian Orthodox church) to take care of all your leather needs! ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
X Posted February 10, 2006 Share Posted February 10, 2006 One store can't handle "all" of my leather needs! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KJP Posted February 10, 2006 Share Posted February 10, 2006 ^ TMI (too much information) “What is the meaning of this city? Do you huddle close together because you love each other?” Or “We all dwell together to make money from each other”? -- TS Eliot’s The Rock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cincykidbc1 Posted February 11, 2006 Share Posted February 11, 2006 ^ You should know that you have the best avatar here Thanks!! 8-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blinker12 Posted March 31, 2006 Share Posted March 31, 2006 Breaking news from the Arts District! :clap: A lease has been signed for the Kennedy Building, on the SE corner of Detroit & W. 65th. The tenant will be a bakery/coffehouse/lunch place called Gypsy Beans & Baking Co., owned by the former manager of Talkies Coffee House in Ohio City. The owner recently purchased Ohio City Muffins and will be moving operations of the bakery to the space. Significant build-out will begin soon, with an anticipated opening date of July 1. This is fantastic news for the neighborhood, and a harbinger of more good things to come! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KJP Posted April 1, 2006 Share Posted April 1, 2006 Good news. What's the owner's name? “What is the meaning of this city? Do you huddle close together because you love each other?” Or “We all dwell together to make money from each other”? -- TS Eliot’s The Rock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peabody99 Posted April 1, 2006 Share Posted April 1, 2006 Breaking news from the Arts District! :clap: A lease has been signed for the Kennedy Building, on the SE corner of Detroit & W. 65th. The tenant will be a bakery/coffehouse/lunch place called Gypsy Beans & Baking Co., owned by the former manager of Talkies Coffee House in Ohio City. The owner recently purchased Ohio City Muffins and will be moving operations of the bakery to the space. Significant build-out will begin soon, with an anticipated opening date of July 1. This is fantastic news for the neighborhood, and a harbinger of more good things to come! did you see Nicki at the market today too? She just told us about this. I think she will do a great job.I hope we can all support her! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blinker12 Posted April 1, 2006 Share Posted April 1, 2006 ^No, I work at Detroit-Shoreway's CDC. KJP, her name is Nicole (something). I forget the last name. Peabody? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peabody99 Posted April 1, 2006 Share Posted April 1, 2006 No I know Nicki (aka Nicole) from when she worked at talkies. She will do a nice job I think, very hard working person. I love that little stretch of street on Detroit. I was once there...I think at the Vietnamese market (cannot remember) and parked in front of a drug store that had photo essay of people's stories with mental illness ...it was terrific. sometimes people in this community get overwhelmed or frustrated with people with disabilities-as there are many, and this did a nice job of putting their stories to life. One of the best things about the area, is that despite gentrification, there is a rich history of social services that seems to be maintaining it self. I hope this does not change. I am joining the near west side developmental corp, as a resident (I hope other forumers in hood do as well!)...but have huge interest in maintaining social services in the area, as I work in that field with folks with in Detroit Shoreway, Ohio City, Tremont neighborhoods. I will give kudos to the folks who own lease apartments in building on Gordon square-very supportive and welcoming of our clients with developmental disabilities. Blinker-what a cool job you must have! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KJP Posted April 2, 2006 Share Posted April 2, 2006 Thanks! “What is the meaning of this city? Do you huddle close together because you love each other?” Or “We all dwell together to make money from each other”? -- TS Eliot’s The Rock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blinker12 Posted June 15, 2006 Share Posted June 15, 2006 So what is the latest from the Gordon Square Arts District, you may ask? 1. We have another firm lease signed, by M% Gallery, currently located on Larchmere. The gallery will move to the P.J. Shier building (former adult bookstore) on Detroit circa fall. The owner lives in the neighborhood and wanted a shorter commute. 2. A major restaurateur is in talks to purchase the old Perry Family Restaurant building and turn it into -- what else? -- a family-oriented restaurant. 3. The new bar by the owner of the Treehouse, Pete Lenaghan, will be called Ballycroy. It is on W. 65th north of Detroit and is slated to open this fall. Lenaghan has spent $2 million on renovation. 4. Gypsy Beans & Baking started build-out on their new space in the Kennedy Building at W. 65th and Detroit, but work seems to have come to a screeching halt. We're hoping they're open by fall. 5. Scaffolding is down from the old Lou's Furniture building (now called Near West Lofts), which should be online by September. I toured the apartments last month and they will have gorgeous views and wood floors. The other buildings in the Gordon Square Homes project are also on track to be open this fall. Other things are simmering retail-development-wise but these are the most prominent. As for the Arts District capital campaign, the three member organizations (Detroit-Shoreway, Near West Theatre and Cleveland Public Theatre) are on the verge of signing a memorandum of understanding outlining their shared goals and responsibilities. We are almost done with an economic impact analysis and parking study and have started a green building analysis. We are in the process of forming our capital campaign committee to lead our $20 million capital effort. I know, nothing too sexy yet, but it's all important groundwork. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StapHanger Posted June 15, 2006 Share Posted June 15, 2006 Wow, B12, sounds like you got plenty of cool stuff keeping you busy over there, thanks for the update! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3231 Posted June 15, 2006 Share Posted June 15, 2006 Did someone buy that cool little church next to Cleveland Public Theater? Any plans for it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Map Boy Posted June 15, 2006 Share Posted June 15, 2006 hot! well done B12...keep up the good work...and keep us informed! any input on the name Ballycroy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blinker12 Posted June 15, 2006 Share Posted June 15, 2006 That church is owned by James Levin, and finds its way in and out of the Arts District plan almost daily. His long-term goal is to have it become an acoustic music hall, or to have Cleveland Public Theatre acquire it. No one has bought it from him yet, and I don't think he even has it listed on PURE anymore, but I'm sure he'd be more than willing to talk to any interested buyers. Meanwhile, the Parish Hall next to the church is now permanent home to the Miller-Weitzel Gallery, previously located at 5304 Detroit. Oh, the Ballycroy will have an indoor bocce ball (sp?) court. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Map Boy Posted June 15, 2006 Share Posted June 15, 2006 how about table top shuffleboard? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3 Dog Pat Posted June 15, 2006 Share Posted June 15, 2006 Ballycroy is a city in County Mayo Ireland, where the Leneghans are from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Map Boy Posted June 15, 2006 Share Posted June 15, 2006 ^gotchya. thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blinker12 Posted June 15, 2006 Share Posted June 15, 2006 Some photos from today. The old Lou's furniture, with scaffolding removed and new windows, Detroit and W. 67th. The back of Lou's from W. 67th, with Near West Theatre's site in the foreground. The P.J. Shier building. Future home of M% Gallery. Detroit between 65th and 67th. The Kennedy building, on the far corner, will be the new home to Gypsy Beans & Baking. Detroit and W. 65th. The unique Muriel Building, part of the Gordon Square Homes project, Detroit and W. 70th. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Map Boy Posted June 17, 2006 Share Posted June 17, 2006 so, who's going to come up with the money for them to bury those power lines? I know that a sidewalk widening may be in the works for this busy intersection and it would be a shame to miss out on an opportunity like that. Though, I hear it's quite expensive to do... Thanks for the shots, B12! Exciting stuff! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blinker12 Posted June 17, 2006 Share Posted June 17, 2006 MGD, power line burial is supposedly part of the streetscape plan. Though streetscape is budgeted at about $4 million, which seems low to include new sidewalks, lighting, street narrowing AND burial. Who knows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
musky Posted June 18, 2006 Share Posted June 18, 2006 The planning Commission approved a plan last Friday that will bury the power lines in the Kamm's Corner area. It was on the summary calendar, so there was no discussion. I wonder if there has ever been a study comparing the cost of underground and overhead utilities. I would think that the periodic cost of replacing poles hit by vehicles, storm damage, and normal wear and tear would be higher over time then the upfront cost of burying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StapHanger Posted June 19, 2006 Share Posted June 19, 2006 ^Good question regarding relative costs. The one down side of burying is the jack-hammering (which apparently must be at 7:30am right outside my apartment) required to repair/replace cables. I'm still for it though. Looks sooooo much better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
w28th Posted June 19, 2006 Share Posted June 19, 2006 I like having overhead wires crisscrossing the city streets. Visually it gives the street a bit of a ceiling and adds to the clutter of urban streetscapes. I say leave them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MyTwoSense Posted June 19, 2006 Share Posted June 19, 2006 I hate overhead utilities. It looks so 70s and gives the impression the city is uncosmopolitan. I say bury them throughout the city and FAST! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
w28th Posted June 19, 2006 Share Posted June 19, 2006 I don't think the area around W65th and Detroit is going for the pristine, cosmopolitian look that certain parts of downtown should maybe be going for. Stripping away layers of urbanity doesn't make a more enjoyable setting, just take a look at what has happened to Coventry. It's a shell of it's former self urbanistically. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
w28th Posted June 19, 2006 Share Posted June 19, 2006 ^The same can be said of East 4th Street. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JDD941 Posted June 19, 2006 Share Posted June 19, 2006 MTS...WHERE is your sense of urbanism!?!?! We should keep all the wires, and while we are at it...give residents free pairs of shoes to toss over the wires as well! Keep the wires so Cleveland can look like the neighborhoods in NYC...wait...I mean Chicago...uh, wait....I mean DETROIT! :) As a firefighter, I hate those poles, wires, and above ground utilities...they get in the way of fire ground operations. Beyond that though, they just look plain ugly and pose potentia hazards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
X Posted June 20, 2006 Share Posted June 20, 2006 I've never thought of utility poles as "layers of urbanity". Maybe we could bury the wires, and then put up non-functioning public art designed to look like wires and poles. Then we would be considered forward thinking by the architectural press. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MayDay Posted June 20, 2006 Author Share Posted June 20, 2006 "The same can be said of East 4th Street." As someone who remembers the former Wig Walk *ahem* East Fourth Street before it was rehabbed, sorry - it was hideous back then. Hideous with a capital F. Urban? Yeah... wig stores are definitely going to attract urbanites with disposable income. "just take a look at what has happened to Coventry. It's a shell of it's former self urbanistically." That's because the people who made Coventry what it was have since moved on, for things like... employment. http://www.clevelandskyscrapers.comhttps://www.instagram.com/clevelandskyscrapers/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zaceman Posted June 20, 2006 Share Posted June 20, 2006 well utility poles arent quite a layer of urbanity, maybe you're thinking overhead trolley/light rail wires?? i wouldnt mind some of those... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Map Boy Posted June 20, 2006 Share Posted June 20, 2006 W 28th...I think you're defining "urbanistic" in a different way than some of us here. And not that aesthetic beauty is "urban," but I think Coventry is much more picturesque today than it was 2, 5, 10, 20 years ago. Sure, the retail mix and clientele is a little different, but what they've done with streetscaping is pretty outstanding...from the decorative elements to the pedestrian crossings...I give 'em an "A!" I can't really speak to E. 4th, because I didn't really frequent it in the past, but I do remember walking by or down the street and thinking that it was something special...and too bad there's no reason for me to come here! Gordon Square is unique because it has such fantastic and intact architecture, but the sidewalks are so narrow that you can barely pass a pedestrian going the opposite direction. And Detroit is no E. 4th...it's a busy street! I'm not sure how or if they'll widen the sidewalk (taking away on-street parking will be a challenge), but there needs to be something done to make the pedestrian experience better. I have no doubt in my mind that the cdc is working diligently on this! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
w28th Posted June 20, 2006 Share Posted June 20, 2006 Mister Good Day, I'm fine with the fact that our definitions may differ, that's what makes this site interesting and why I continue to post. I just enjoy seeing the city as a space that doesn't have to be prepared for visitors to come and enjoy. Now it may be utility poles that are removed first because people don’t like overhead wires, next it is old school paintings on buildings you see on the buildings along Fleet Ave because people will say the area looks faded or rundown, then traffic lights are removed to speed traffic because people have to drive right? (Little Italy’s light at Murray Hill and Mayfield was removed, and with it ease of crossing Mayfield for pedestrians and the hustle and bustle of stop and go traffic, not good for commuters, but we should be worrying about the pedestrian here) etc, etc. Then what? We are left with a poorly planned, suburban visitor friendly, homogenized version of what something once was. I realize the nature of cities is that of change, but it should be change for the better, and hopefully if these utility lines are buried something progressive is designed and built there to properly replace the old. I guess what I’m saying is that we need better planning at a city level, (if they got some of us here from urbanohio, I think we’d be getting better results, or at least some arguments). Also, if these utility wires are buried, what will the new lamp posts look like? Hopefully "new" is the operative word for their appearance, and that the city doesn't see this as a place to install neoclassical light posts. It would be great if we, gulp, had a DESIGN COMPETITION for new lamp posts replacing the old ones here in Cleveland. New York City had one a few years ago and the results are pretty cool: http://www.nyc.gov/html/ddc/html/citylights/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Map Boy Posted June 20, 2006 Share Posted June 20, 2006 I agree, w28th, that sharing different perspectives and opinions is what this site is all about. I hope you understood that that was what I meant to say in line one of my preious post... I also agree that we, as a city/region/citizenry, could do a lot more to push the design agenda in our places. Competitions like the one you mentioned above can do nothing but positive things for the future of our cities by increasing participation, awareness and potentially, the output. Tokyo has several districts that are distinguished by their street lighting. I was there for only two weeks, but I began to recognize where I was because of the unique design found in each neighborhood. Whether this was intentional or just a great side effect, I don't know! In Gordon Square, I might support something more old-fashioned, merely because that's what was there originally and the buildings at the main intersection (65th & Detroit) were all built prior to 1920. There's also something to be said for desiging lights that are pedestrian oriented versus street oriented. You can have more than one lamp on a single post...one at a height of 20 feet or so, for the street, and another at a height of 12 feet or so, for the sidewalk. I, however, disagree that these efforts are done to make the place friendly primarily to visitors. Coventry, West 25th, Mayfield, Wade Oval...these are spaces that visitors will certainly enjoy and be more likely to return to than if the sidewalk experience was unimproved, but they are also much greater amenities for neighborhood residents who walk those streets every day...not just once a week/month. And they are most often the product of neighborhood and stakeholder meetings/workshops that produce the basic ideas that go into the design. I'll give you that they could be more inclusive, but the initial effort is usually there. Sometimes it just takes a champion to keep the public involved. If no one is interested in coming to the meetings, then they'll stop having them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
w28th Posted June 20, 2006 Share Posted June 20, 2006 I understand your point to possibly seeing older styled lighting/traffic signals at W65th and Detroit because of the surrounding context, but there is a lot of merit to utilizing the idea of exposing the contrast between new and old as a dynamic design gesture. It reveals the intricacies and detail of the old (buildings, in the case of W65th & Detroit) vs. the smooth or angled of the contemporary (lighting/signals), playing off the idea of the city being a multilayered organism. This idea could be used throughout the city in a variety of different programs. In a previous thread somebody brought up the idea of using the grain silos near the Center Street swing bridge as some ultra contemporary condominium complex. I love that. Imagine how interesting this would look if some weird shaped addition to those silos was designed onto it. Maybe it engages the river somehow. It’s just an example, but it can be applied to almost anything. We need to define the time that we’ve had control of the city, and there is no other way to do that than to always be forward thinking when it comes to urban planning and design. We should be saying, “let’s use what’s left of this old industrial city to be the most progressive city in the world, aesthetically, and then one would hope at some point, socially.” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StapHanger Posted June 20, 2006 Share Posted June 20, 2006 Great discussion, guys. Really points to some of the central conceptual design dilemmas facing the city. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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