US Economy: News & Discussion

[MyTwoSense]

On 4/4/2019 at 4:26 PM, Gramarye said:

More in the "American retail apocalypse" genre: Some familiar names on here, some I didn't recognize as much but that still are apparently large (even if I hadn't heard of them) based on the size of their apparent indebtedness and operating deficits:

 

https://www.retaildive.com/news/12-retailers-walking-a-dangerous-line-toward-bankruptcy-in-2019/550963/

 

12 retailers walking a dangerous line toward bankruptcy in 2019

The biggest take away is more consolidation.  And the fact that all of this would hurt middle class and poor people.  Hudson Bay buy Neimans would give them the luxury retail trifecta crown.  They would have Saks (and its subsidiaries), Nieman Marcus, along with it's subsidiaries that include fabulous Bergdorf-Goodman.   The Macy's Bloomingdales merger hurt middle class shoppers.  Bloomingdales became an upscale brand and Macy's locations were all over the place, a few locations became mid-upscale like the 34 street flagship and some just down right pathetic like the downtown Brooklyn, Boston, Philadelphia, DC and various locations.  This along with former Iconic American brands, JCPenny's, Sears and K-Mart all having issues.  Amazon has hurt everyone, leaving Target (the millennial version of JCPenny & Macy's) and  WalMart (the current K-Mart/Gold Circle) are left.  Sears has strong partnerships with American brands like Kenmore, GE & Whirlpool.  It's a terrible domino effect.

 

This is only going to get worse as many american's don't have the buying power to keep the mid range brands in business.  Like the Airline, Hotel, Retail and cable businesses there will be more consolidation and this wont be good for any portion of the middle class.

[GCrites]

^People assume that extremely low retail prices are "good for consumers" but when it gets to the point where nobody is making any profit whatsoever or losing money becomes par that's bad for society since the companies can't pay people.

[MyTwoSense]

3 minutes ago, GCrites80s said:

^People assume that extremely low retail prices are "good for consumers" but when it gets to the point where nobody is making any profit whatsoever or losing money becomes par that's bad for society since the companies can't pay people.

[Gramarye]

Well, profit is what you have left over after you pay your people.  Though of course the goal of the company is a profit and few people will operate a company just to constantly break even.

 

Some retail consolidation might hurt the middle class but I don't think an example of Hudson Bay potentially owning the Neiman group and the Saks group is exactly the right example for that.  Most middle class folks don't burn their money at any of those, so losing the competition in that segment of the retail sector is not a practical impediment to most shoppers.

 

Remember that particularly in the U.S., we have build so much retail space over so many years--so much more per capita than the rest of the world--that we actually can lose a lot and it's still basically just mean-reversion, from a global perspective.

 

FWIW, there are retailers that are doing well that are not named Amazon.  For some reason (I don't know a thing about them other than online chatter, admittedly), Ollie's Bargain Outlets has been on a multi-year tear.  Also, the modern economy has made it at least somewhat easier for manufacturers to sell directly to customers.  Even as big as Amazon and Wal-Mart are, we're a long way from retail being anything approaching an oligopoly.

 

The airline example is definitely a more salient example of less practical consumer choice (and of course fewer cities that get to be hubs).  Perhaps even moreso might be ISPs.

[GCrites]

I was thinking more along the lines of shrinking payrolls and having to pay people less while treating them worse due to a lack of profitability.

 

Part of the reason we were "over-retailed" space-wise is that the U.S. has all of these suburbs, small towns and semi-rural areas that in other countries are irrelevant or don't even exist at all. So we are going to need more retail locations in the foreseeable future than say France or Germany where rural is actually rural and cities dominate.

 

It was a really interesting time 20 years ago when there were hundreds of different local ISPs all over the country.

Edited June 10, 2019 by GCrites80s

[KJP]

Trump’s Economy Is Literally Coming Off The Rails

 

Following the transportation industry is one way to judge how the economy is doing. Trucks and railroads pretty much move all the goods and raw materials that are sold or used in the United States. That is one reason investors keep an eye on the Dow Jones Transportation Index to get a feeling for how the economy is performing. Neither railroad traffic nor the Index are doing well recently.

 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/chuckjones/2019/06/10/trumps-economy-is-literally-coming-off-the-rails/

 

Edited June 12, 2019 by KJP

[KJP]

Yes, many things that were made in America are now made overseas. But most manufacturing job losses are due to technology. And that's only going to get worse...

 

Robots could take 20 million manufacturing jobs by 2030

https://fox8.com/2019/06/27/robots-could-take-20-million-manufacturing-jobs-by-2030/

[GCrites]

Countries with First World healthcare systems aren't nearly as obsessed with automation as us.

[KJP]

5 hours ago, GCrites80s said:

Countries with First World healthcare systems aren't nearly as obsessed with automation as us.

 

Nailed it. And we'll never get a first-world healthcare system (or gun control, or a green economy, or other essential things) as long as political campaigns run more on money and less on ideas.

Edited July 6, 2019 by KJP

[DarkandStormy]

https://medium.com/@teamwarren/the-coming-economic-crash-and-how-to-stop-it-355703da148b

 

Elizabeth Warren warns of the coming economic crash.

[surfohio]

Texafornia dreaming

America’s future will be written in the two mega-states

 

In the cable-news version of America, the president sits in the White House issuing commands that transform the nation. Life is not like that. In the real version of America many of the biggest political choices are made not in Washington but by the states—and by two of them in particular.

 

Texas and California are the biggest, brashest, most important states in the union, each equally convinced that it is the future (see our Special report in this issue). For the past few decades they have been heading in opposite directions, creating an experiment that reveals whether America works better as a low-tax, low-regulation place in which government makes little provision for its citizens (Texas), or as a high-tax, highly regulated one in which it is the government’s role to tackle problems, such as climate change, that might ordinarily be considered the job of the federal government (California).

 

Given the long-running political dysfunction in Washington, the results will determine what sort of country America becomes almost as much as the victor of the next presidential election will. 

 

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.economist.com/leaders/2019/06/20/texafornia-dreaming

[KJP]

Some bad signs out there. Railroad traffic levels, a leading economic indicator because they haul so much raw material, have been down all year. Possible stock market drop (worse than Monday's) and look at 5-30 Treasury yields in recent weeks, especially so far this month....

 

https://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/data-chart-center/interest-rates/pages/TextView.aspx?data=yieldYear&year=2019

[Robuu]

3 minutes ago, KJP said:

Some bad signs out there. Railroad traffic levels, a leading economic indicator because they haul so much raw material, have been down all year. Possible stock market drop (worse than Monday's) and look at 5-30 Treasury yields in recent weeks, especially so far this month....

 

https://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/data-chart-center/interest-rates/pages/TextView.aspx?data=yieldYear&year=2019

I'd guess tariffs have lowered imports, which would lower freight hauling, which would lower railroad traffic.

[KJP]

"Trade wars are good and easy to win"

[Robuu]

What even are the terms Trump wants China to abide by? Has he articulated them? All I really see is a vague notion of "tough on China" and "America first" which is more Reality TV than reasoned policy. I wouldn't necessarily be opposed to tariffs if they were conditioned on things like abiding by environmental and labor standards.

[TBideon]

Those are issues, but the real problems stem from China's IP theft and extortion. Those are in the half a trillion a year range. Some "ally". And god knows what the mandatory technology transfers or joint ventures come out to.

Edited August 7, 2019 by TBideon

[YABO713]

So sick of tariffs and self-proclaimed "Conservatives" rationalizing them

[freefourur]

1 minute ago, YABO713 said:

So sick of tariffs and self-proclaimed "Conservatives" rationalizing them

Be careful, I was told that I do not have the expertise to define a conservative.  Silly me, I thought conservatives were into free markets and free trade.  But apparently it's only about judges and letting people discriminate against the LGBT community.  

[Robuu]

11 minutes ago, TBideon said:

Those are issues, but the real problems stem from China's IP theft and extortion. Those are in the half a trillion a year range. Some "ally". And god knows what the mandatory technology transfers or joint ventures come out to.

I didn't intend for my list to be exhaustive.

[Robuu]

11 minutes ago, YABO713 said:

So sick of tariffs and self-proclaimed "Conservatives" rationalizing them

Being restricted to two parties sets the groundwork for creating a menu of wedge issues to cobble together a winning coalition. Neither party is going to adhere to a coherent political philosophy (certainly not for a sustained period of time, anyhow). We would need to reform our voting system to something other than first-past-the-post, and possibly move toward proportional representation, to develop an actual conservative party. For now, what passes as "conservative" is whatever the Republican Party and right wing media decide to call conservative.

[KJP]

Being more concerned with local impacts of national economic dynamics, I hope that the construction and development market continues to be strong in Greater Cleveland. The fundamentals continue to support it, but uncertainty, national and international slowdown of economic activity, and general fears could impact it.

[freefourur]

13 minutes ago, Terdolph said:

If he gets them to stop manipulating their currency, and he might just do it, it would be a big win not just for the US economy but Europe as well.

They are not actually manipulating their currency right now, at least not by definition.

[freefourur]

Just now, Terdolph said:

They have for decades now.

They are not manipulating it right now.  They have in the past but are not doing it now and haven't for years. 

 

[KJP]

U.S. rail traffic fell for sixth straight month in July

https://www.progressiverailroading.com/rail_industry_trends/news/US-rail-traffic-fell-for-sixth-straight-month-in-July--58274

 

 

"With 50 percent of rail intermodal business which is overseas — including international trade, both imports of consumer and intermediate manufacturing components and exports such as food products — trade policy uncertainty continues to drag down this traffic segment," said Gray. "Export grain movements are also facing increasingly serious headwinds from threats to trade policy stability.”

[CleCaneFan]

9 minutes ago, KJP said:

U.S. rail traffic fell for sixth straight month in July

https://www.progressiverailroading.com/rail_industry_trends/news/US-rail-traffic-fell-for-sixth-straight-month-in-July--58274

 

 

"With 50 percent of rail intermodal business which is overseas — including international trade, both imports of consumer and intermediate manufacturing components and exports such as food products — trade policy uncertainty continues to drag down this traffic segment," said Gray. "Export grain movements are also facing increasingly serious headwinds from threats to trade policy stability.”

Add that to the continuous decline in coal traffic. 

[GCrites]

I tell you what's not on those trains anymore... video games!

 

Poof! All digital -- just like the music business. It didn't happen overnight, but we're here.

[DarkandStormy]

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/us-created-501000-fewer-jobs-as-of-march-2019-than-previous-reported-2019-08-21?mod=mw_latestnews

 

Just a bit off.

 

Quote

The U.S. economy had 501,000 fewer jobs in March 2019 than previously reported, government revisions show, suggesting that hiring was not as strong in the past year as it seemed. Hiring was weaker in retail, restaurants and hotels. The annual revision is much larger than is typically the case.

 

[KJP]

Families Go Deep in Debt to Stay in the Middle Class

Wages stalled but costs haven’t, so people increasingly rent or finance what their parents might have owned outright

https://www.wsj.com/articles/families-go-deep-in-debt-to-stay-in-the-middle-class-11564673734

[DarkandStormy]

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/08/29/us-gdp-q2-second-reading-up-2point0percent-in-line-with-expectations.html

 

Quote

The U.S. economy slowed a bit more than initially thought in the second quarter as the strongest growth in consumer spending in 4-1/2 years was offset by declining exports and a smaller inventory build.

 

Gross domestic product increased at a 2.0% annualized rate, the Commerce Department said in its second reading of second-quarter GDP on Thursday. That was revised down from the 2.1% pace estimated last month. The economy grew at a 3.1% rate in the January-March quarter. It expanded 2.6% in the first half of the year.

 

So odd how all these revisions trend downward rather than the other way.

[KJP]

If this continues, expect Trump to correct similar data next year (election year!) with his Sharpie....

 

U.S. Job Growth Misses Estimates in August With 130,000 Increase

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-09-06/u-s-payrolls-rise-130-000-boosted-by-25-000-for-census-count

 

 

[KJP]

U.S. Rail Traffic Still Falling As Fall Approaches

https://www.railwayage.com/freight/class-i/u-s-rail-traffic-still-falling-as-fall-approaches/

[jjakucyk]

Thanks Obama!

[Gramarye]

These threads are becoming great time capsules as UO matures.  The early pages of this thread (through page 14) are the depth of the Great Recession, which bottomed out in March 2009.  (Also a trip down memory lane vis-a-vis some forumers I don't see much anymore.)

 

Anyway, on to more current news, these two separate articles came out on the same day and earned a sardonic eyeroll from me in tandem:

 

Teens are leaving the labor force, and it will hurt them down the road

 

https://www.dallasnews.com/opinion/commentary/2019/09/17/teens-are-leaving-the-labor-force-and-it-will-hurt-them-down-the-road/

 

Labor Shortage May Imperil Growth

A lack of qualified workers boosts wages but makes it hard for businesses to expand.

 

https://www.wsj.com/articles/labor-shortage-may-imperil-growth-11568760707?emailToken=d8f545ab46f644a49fcd5610314afac525pXQfaeEXyJJVpV2u7N5NWJYoGy7UL9nH/jR2TSdEkHVD3RMYqeaH89rAW8BQpwaP/f1rfc/ZpBTooQyobIZA%3D%3D&reflink=article_email_share

 

My children are still a long way from being teenagers, but the article about teens leaving the labor force still struck a chord with me because the story it tells is one I could easily see my kids living now if they were older, or in the future when they are that age: college is so expensive that entry-level jobs available to teenagers really don't make a dent; the hunt for admissions and scholarships is increasingly competitive, including both academic work and significant extracurricular involvement even in the summer.  I honestly don't know if I'd encourage my teenage son to even try to get a job given the current realities.  The current value of the scholarship I got at Ohio state would be more than $107,000 (full tuition, room, board, and living allowance for 4 years).  Can I say that saving up $10,000 or so from 4 years of summer jobs in high school would be worth more than taking a shot at getting the same thing?  Or even one of the lesser merit scholarships that could easily be worth as much as (or quite a bit more than) you could realistically save from having a summer job?

[GCrites]

In a lot of cases it just isn't worth it to have your schedule and availability destroyed over not very much money or to be able to tell people that you work. Being a student is one of them.

[GISguy]

55 minutes ago, GCrites80s said:

In a lot of cases it just isn't worth it to have your schedule and availability destroyed over not very much money or to be able to tell people that you work. Being a student is one of them.

 

I've never contributed to this side of UO, but this definitely struck a chord. While it was nice to have spending money from my pizza shop job, I lost a lot of friends over my schedule and not being able to go out on the weekends and just be a kid. Looking back on it, I made maybe $115-130 per week? Sure, I was able to pay for clothes and to eat out at denny's (lol) and pay to repair my '92 Tempo, but I also missed a year of football, basketball games and all that crap.

 

Teen work isn't going to leave a dent in the overall tuition problem, BUT the one takeaway I did get from working in the service industry is respect for people busting their asses in kitchens, delivering and whatnot, thing is, you don't need to be in HS to learn that.

[KJP]

 

[Foraker]

On 9/18/2019 at 3:28 PM, Gramarye said:

My children are still a long way from being teenagers, but the article about teens leaving the labor force still struck a chord with me because the story it tells is one I could easily see my kids living now if they were older, or in the future when they are that age: college is so expensive that entry-level jobs available to teenagers really don't make a dent; the hunt for admissions and scholarships is increasingly competitive, including both academic work and significant extracurricular involvement even in the summer.  I honestly don't know if I'd encourage my teenage son to even try to get a job given the current realities. 

 

My teenagers struggled with the idea of getting a job.  No one wants to hire any kids who aren't yet 16 (unless they want to babysit).  And once they're 16 they're really busy with schoolwork and extracurricular activities that are increasingly year-round (fall baseball anyone?).  They do want the spending money, however, even if it isn't enough to save for college. 

[Foraker]

On 9/18/2019 at 4:29 PM, Terdolph said:

There is going to be a major adjustment in college tuition in the next few years.  When people finally figure out that there is no fix to the student loan scam (the federal government can not just wipe out a contract between a student and state chartered bank by legislative fiat-despite anything Beto or Elizabeth says) supply and demand will make major changes to the way colleges price their product.  I have calculated that the cash flow cost of educating an undergraduate at an endowed college is about 12K/yr. per student.  Less at a state school.  For the past 30 years, universities have been using undergraduate tuition to massively subsidize their graduate programs.  If that ends, undergrad tuition will tumble by as much as 60%.

 

Maybe.  But I doubt it.  The costs to teach are fixed -- you need professors to teach (unless you only sell canned pre-recorded Kahn Academy lectures and electronic testing and grading, in which case you will struggle to differentiate yourself from other schools).  (If we had universal health insurance, that would help reduce the overhead burden on schools.)

 

We have a glut of colleges and universities right now, but prices are not falling.  Why?  Maybe competition is pushing schools to over-improve their facilities and to provide additional services and amenities than in the past.  Also, the reputation of a school still matters; Harvard will never need to lower its price.  I do think that some of the smaller private schools are struggling and if enrollment drops suddenly (2023?) we could see a wave of college closings.  Even then I don't see how reducing supply is going to lead to tuition reductions of 60%.

 

I agree that no one is going to be dismissing college debt by fiat.  But no one is suggesting it.  There are ways to reduce student loan debt, however, such as by offsetting taxes or through direct government payments.  The Fed could print money to buy out some amount of student loan debt, say for public employees like teachers and firefighters.  I would argue that that would spur the economy enough to counter the inflationary effect if we limited it to people earning less than a  median income.  Congress will have the final say, however, so who knows what plans they will all agree to.

 

I've heard that out-of-state and foreign students (both undergrads and grad students) are what are keeping many schools afloat.   While there may be universities using undergrads to subsidize grad programs, I don't think that is the case for our state schools.  I've seen advertisements for foreign students from Case's and Cleveland-Marshall's  law schools, so I would expect those students to be of particular value to those schools.

 

[GCrites]

Graduate school professors are often much more expensive than their undergraduate counterparts and the programs have different endowments than the undergraduate school and their various colleges. There's a lot of people that are filthy rich with a Bachelor's from the school that don't care about the graduate programs.

[Guest jmecklenborg]

On ‎9‎/‎18‎/‎2019 at 4:38 PM, GISguy said:

 

I've never contributed to this side of UO, but this definitely struck a chord. While it was nice to have spending money from my pizza shop job, I lost a lot of friends over my schedule and not being able to go out on the weekends and just be a kid. Looking back on it, I made maybe $115-130 per week? Sure, I was able to pay for clothes and to eat out at denny's (lol) and pay to repair my '92 Tempo, 

 

Yeah I spent a huge amount of time working in college to earn a pretty inconsequential amount of money.  For 2.5 school years I worked 4 nights per week a sub shop for, I think, $5.50/hr.  I remember that my weekly checks were roughly $80.  I then worked full-time during the summers at a warehouse and made about $3,000.  According to my SS statements, I made about $8,000 those years.  For one summer I lived off loans and just partied.  It was awesome.  I also took a huge pay cut by quitting the restaurant and working for the college newspaper 40+ hours per week, but it was a fantastic experience.  

 

I recently visited one of my much-younger brothers, who lives with his rich girlfriend.  Her parents pay for everything - the apartment, the BMW in the garage.  She graduated from a Top 20 school with no debt and sustains herself in a very expensive city by being an Airbnb maid while she waits for her big break into the biz.    

 

It's just absolutely crazy what an advantage people from wealthy families have.  The degree is incidental for them; they're still getting the money just for having the right last name.  They can dawdle around NYC or LA or SF for years until they get their break.  Meanwhile, hordes of much more talented people are drowning in student loan debt and working 2 jobs to pay the rent on a closet in Queens.  

[freefourur]

18 minutes ago, jmecklenborg said:

 

Yeah I spent a huge amount of time working in college to earn a pretty inconsequential amount of money.  For 2.5 school years I worked 4 nights per week a sub shop for, I think, $5.50/hr.  I remember that my weekly checks were roughly $80.  I then worked full-time during the summers at a warehouse and made about $3,000.  According to my SS statements, I made about $8,000 those years.  For one summer I lived off loans and just partied.  It was awesome.  I also took a huge pay cut by quitting the restaurant and working for the college newspaper 40+ hours per week, but it was a fantastic experience.  

 

I recently visited one of my much-younger brothers, who lives with his rich girlfriend.  Her parents pay for everything - the apartment, the BMW in the garage.  She graduated from a Top 20 school with no debt and sustains herself in a very expensive city by being an Airbnb maid while she waits for her big break into the biz.    

 

It's just absolutely crazy what an advantage people from wealthy families have.  The degree is incidental for them; they're still getting the money just for having the right last name.  They can dawdle around NYC or LA or SF for years until they get their break.  Meanwhile, hordes of much more talented people are drowning in student loan debt and working 2 jobs to pay the rent on a closet in Queens.  

 

But my conservative friends tell me that everyone has an equal opportunity and taxing estates is mean.

[MyTwoSense]

30 minutes ago, jmecklenborg said:

 

Yeah I spent a huge amount of time working in college to earn a pretty inconsequential amount of money.  For 2.5 school years I worked 4 nights per week a sub shop for, I think, $5.50/hr.  I remember that my weekly checks were roughly $80.  I then worked full-time during the summers at a warehouse and made about $3,000.  According to my SS statements, I made about $8,000 those years.  For one summer I lived off loans and just partied.  It was awesome.  I also took a huge pay cut by quitting the restaurant and working for the college newspaper 40+ hours per week, but it was a fantastic experience.  

 

I recently visited one of my much-younger brothers, who lives with his rich girlfriend.  Her parents pay for everything - the apartment, the BMW in the garage.  She graduated from a Top 20 school with no debt and sustains herself in a very expensive city by being an Airbnb maid while she waits for her big break into the biz.    

 

It's just absolutely crazy what an advantage people from wealthy families have.  The degree is incidental for them; they're still getting the money just for having the right last name.  They can dawdle around NYC or LA or SF for years until they get their break.  Meanwhile, hordes of much more talented people are drowning in student loan debt and working 2 jobs to pay the rent on a closet in Queens.  

 

Wealthy people use their money to work for them.  My father was brought up middle class. He moved up the ladder, my brother and I we're raised upper middle class.  I worked hard my entire life and worked my way up the latter.  Today,  I am blessed to be outright rich.  But I planned and reevaluated my financial wealth. I think its inaccurate to lump all "wealthy" people into one category.  I want what is best for my nephews/nieces and whippersnapper.  So if I can give them a leg up, I will.  My nephew attended Columbia, but lived with me.  I wanted to make sure all he had to do is worry about school, nothing else.  If that is a crime, I'm guilty.  I purchased an apartment in Chicago, my niece and cousins daughter live there.  They had a situation with their old landlord and so that they don't have to worry about paying a shady landlord, they can pay me.  They both worked hard internships prior to graduating and both were offered jobs in Chicago after graduating.  If I have the means to help, why shouldn't I?  Hell I can't take it with me.  I've always shown them what they need to do for their financial security.  I have to change some estate planning because I want to leave the whippersnapper something, in the event I won't be able to adopt him.  I'm not a fan of "hand outs" but passing on family financial status with stipulations is fine. 

 

Talent comes in different packages.

[Guest jmecklenborg]

6 minutes ago, freefourur said:

 

But my conservative friends tell me that everyone has an equal opportunity and taxing estates is mean.

 

The thing is if you add up the raw money that a wealthy family can throw at their kids between the ages of 1 and 30 as opposed to an ordinary middle class family like mine, it's like $50k versus $550k.  It's not even close.   It's literally a $500k difference for many of these people, and that's before the inheritance.  The tuition.  The car.  The wedding.  Then the wedding gift.  Then the down payment on a $800k house.  

[MyTwoSense]

2 minutes ago, jmecklenborg said:

 

The thing is if you add up the raw money that a wealthy family can throw at their kids between the ages of 1 and 30 as opposed to an ordinary middle class family like mine, it's like $50k versus $550k.  It's not even close.   It's literally a $500k difference for many of these people, and that's before the inheritance.  The tuition.  The car.  The wedding.  Then the wedding gift.  Then the down payment on a $800k house.  

 

Is this a bad thing?

[freefourur]

^ it's neither a good thing nor a bad thing.  It's just a fact

Edited October 1, 2019 by freefourur

[MyTwoSense]

5 minutes ago, freefourur said:

^ it's neither a good thing nor a bad thing.  It's just a fact

 

But it seems TO ME there is a bias against people who are well off.

 

I've read some thread, over the years here, and some seem to believe that they are entitled to things without working for them.

[freefourur]

Just now, MyTwoSense said:

 

But it seems TO ME there is a bias against people who are well off.

 

I've read some thread, over the years here, and some seem to believe that they are entitled to things without working for them.

Many people work very hard and have nothing to show for it because of wage stagnation and decline of labor unions.  To say that people should get things without working for them is a strawman.  

 

BTW, how hard did Donnie Jr. work for his money?

[MyTwoSense]

Just now, freefourur said:

Many people work very hard and have nothing to show for it because of wage stagnation and decline of labor unions.  To say that people should get things without working for them is a strawman.  

 

BTW, how hard did Donnie Jr. work for his money?

My grand father was one of those people.  Not to mention being black, he so that was another barrier. 

 

Giving people things, just to do so, is one thing.  Estate planning and being named in someone will is completely different.

[freefourur]

Just now, MyTwoSense said:

My grand father was one of those people.  Not to mention being black, he so that was another barrier. 

 

Giving people things, just to do so, is one thing.  Estate planning and being named in someone will is completely different.

Look, I don't have any problem with peopke having money and and generational wealth,  But it is a fact that some people have more opportunities because of the luck of birth. It is not a judgment I am making.  It's just an observation.

 

My dad had a 5th grade education and worked hard. We didn't have a lot but we had enough.  My wife and I are very financially secure and our children will have many opportunities that I never had.  This does not men they are evil or bad. They are just privileged and lucky.  It's just a fact.

[MyTwoSense]

1 minute ago, freefourur said:

Look, I don't have any problem with peopke having money and and generational wealth,  But it is a fact that some people have more opportunities because of the luck of birth. It is not a judgment I am making.  It's just an observation.

 

My dad had a 5th grade education and worked hard. We didn't have a lot but we had enough.  My wife and I are very financially secure and our children will have many opportunities that I never had.  This does not men they are evil or bad. They are just privileged and lucky.  It's just a fact.

 

Isn't that what this is all about?    Generational financial stability is a marathon and one hell of a hill to climb.  Also, there are plenty of people that are wealthy and squander it.