Cleveland: Downtown Office Development News

[jamiec]

^ you said it willyboy. that prime spot on public square should never be allowed to become a land of dingy little office or apt buildings. thats no ego trip that is common sense. save the little stuff for elsewhere in the city. i dont think jacobs would dare do that anyway (he owns the land right?). i'd rather have the law firm move to the flats with wolstein and wait some more rather than waste that space --- unless it could be a jazzy pumped tower up via some creative mixed use.

 

Go big or go home!! =)

[MayDay]

Well if you remember the plans for Ameritrust, it was originally going to be somewhat mixed-use with a 500-room Hyatt - and I imagine any new plans would involve a hotel component.

[willyboy]

I was thinking that, but do you recall what the office portion of that would have been?  Since B.H. will only need 200,000sf do you think it could be justified?  Maybe in combination, as had been mentioned, hotel/office (& maybe some spec. office)/condo's, it could be done.. 

[MyTwoSense]

I was thinking that, but do you recall what the office portion of that would have been?  Since B.H. will only need 200,000sf do you think it could be justified?  Maybe in combination, as had been mentioned, hotel/office (& maybe some spec. office)/condo's, it could be done..  

 

not "could"....It all should be done!  Who wouldn't want to live at and address like "xxx public square"  the views would be spectacular...your in the heart of EVERYTHING...that would truely be Clevelands showplace residential tower... world class hotel...."A" class commerical office space...with unique retail on the bottom floors.

 

HOWEVER, there is already the Atrium office building that could be used, although, now that i think about it, the Atrium would be a great location for a hotel.

[DaninDC]

that prime spot on public square should never be allowed to become a land of dingy little office or apt buildings. thats no ego trip that is common sense. save the little stuff for elsewhere in the city.

 

No, common sense says that right now, the market only supports a surface parking lot on the west side of Public Square.  I understand the desire to have a "landmark" building on Public Square--but how in the hell do you determine that only a 500'+ building is sufficient?  Seems pretty arbitrary, if you ask me.  Back in the 1970s, Henry Ford II built the Renaissance Center in Detroit, hoping to "inspire" other investors to build in the city.  What it did was become a vacuum, sucking what little street life there was into the new complex--it completely killed the real estate market by creating a vast oversupply in a concentrated location.

 

Building more high-rises in Cleveland is going to sap activity off the street and depress real estate values.  If you wait for someone to fill that quadrant with a 500'+ building, expect to see an empty lot there for quite some time to come.  Also keep in mind that whatever gets built on the west side of the Square also needs to transition architecturally to the Warehouse District.  Cleveland would be better off with "dingy-little" 10-12 story buildings that can be more easily absorbed into the market, and would generate street traffic over a greater geographic area than would a single skyscraper.

 

 

[MayDay]

I don't disagree that economically speaking - a new signature tower on Public Square might not be the best option.  I'd also like to see a half-dozen ten-story buildings infilling the parking lots instead of one 60-story tower. However, you're off with some of your points.

 

"the Renaissance Center in Detroit,"

 

Apples and oranges. The RenCen is a poorly designed Portman "fortress" (given the 70s fortress mentality) on a site too far away from the heart of the CBD. It has an enormous footprint, is separated by what may as well be a freeway (it would be like Key Tower being located on the Browns Stadium site), and for many years had a horrific concrete wall/berm facing the city. Even with the new enhancements of recent years, it's an enormous and disorienting facility. The Public Square site is much smaller, more centrally located, and any tower there would likely be required to have street-level amenities. I don't think a new building the size of One Cleveland Center would decimate the local real estate market the way the RenCen affected Detroit.

 

"Also keep in mind that whatever gets built on the west side of the Square also needs to transition architecturally to the Warehouse District"

 

The massing models for Stark's project for the superblock show low-rise buildings along West 6th, and gradually increasing to 10-15ish stories along West 3rd. If those taller portions end up being 200ish feet, it wouldn't be too drastic if a tower on Public Square was around 500 feet.

[DaninDC]

I agree with your assessment, but the Ren Cen did create an oversupply of space, in a submarket that is only now starting to recover, some 30 years later.  The going rate of Class "A" space in Cleveland tells me the market is still very soft and vulnerable--much too fragile to embark upon a high-risk project.  Cleveland needs more bread-and-butter to take up some of the vacant land, and help boost property values, which would lead to increased development.

 

For me, if I had to choose between emulating a low-rise city like Paris, or a city with a lot of very tall buildings like Atlanta, it's a no-brainer to choose the former.

[3231]

^I agree. Also, I wouldn't be so opposed to having a 20 story building at that site.  Its much more important to fill up gaps than it is to go vertical.

[w28th]

I agree with DaninDC.  Building a 15-20 story building would be a better option both economically and visually.  The Terminal Tower should be able to breath in the skyline.  The damn courthouse has blocked enough views with its bloated dimensions when viewed from the Detroit-Superior bridge.

[jamiec]

DaninDC convinced me! I wasn't even thinking about the full impact of putting a monster skyscraper on Public Square. If they do in fact build something new, I'd like to see a design that really knocks my socks off, though, especially considering where it could be located.

 

The article sort of makes it sound like Public Square is not the leading contender right now. But maybe they don't even know.

 

 

[KJP]

As much as it pains me to say, I would rather see 200 Public Square be filled out and support the leasing rates. An unanswerable question right now is what will the absorption rates be over the next couple of years when Baker Hostetler is ready to make its move. If the past year is an example, the market may be ready for a new office building in a couple of years. But a lot can happen between now and then. Baker Hostetler can probably predict its own future two years from now to some degree of variation. The downtown office market, however, has too many variables affecting it. So make the financially conservative move now and let developers see where things stand in 2008.

 

BTW, I don't know if this image has been posted before, but I came across this rendering of the proposed DFAS office building on the Flats East Bank, inside the Waterfront Line's hairpin curve. A site reserved for a Waterfront Line station is in the foreground...

 

[smackem81]

My thoughts...

If we get a huge 500 ft office building and it causes a glut of A space, and people shuffle around. B office space tennats, can get a cheap deal on A space at a B price, inturn B space becomes vacant and maybe some borderline A class space. These B/borderline A spaces become primed for conversion into residential.

 

I can see some buildings around  E 6th & superior, prospect, bolivar, E 12th, kinda all over actually that would almost seem better suited for a mid sized residential conversion.

[zaceman]

wow so would they actually have a stop there at the DFAS building?  That looks pretty nice

[MyTwoSense]

For me, if I had to choose between emulating a low-rise city like Paris, or a city with a lot of very tall buildings like Atlanta, it's a no-brainer to choose the former.

 

For me, if I had to choose between emulating a low-rise city like Paris, or a city with a lot of very tall buildings like Atlanta, it's a no-brainer to choose the former.

 

Most certainly. A skyline is nice to look at and all, but it does nothing for a city's quality of urban life. Density > skyscrapers any day of the week.

 

You both hit it on the Head.  I don't want Cleveland to be a city with lots of pretty building and no OCCUPANTS.  I just left Atlanta and there are three building downtown that were built in the last 12/15 years that are more than half empty or going to be empty.  We at TW consolidated 7 buildings into 3. 

 

Ernst & Young is building the a new regional office, which will leave a massive whole in the Bank of America Bldg.  I had a meeting at that building was like, why would a company build its own building when there are three buildings in a stretch of peachtree thats compareable from May Co to East 12.

 

It's like a bomb went of in downtown Atlanta.  As much as people complaing about our downtown ... Atlanta, Miami, Baltimore, New Orleans are in far worse shape.

 

edited to add:  Even with the construction on Euclid we've got more activity on Superior, Prospect and Euclid than they do on Spring, Peachtree or Peachtree Center and Olympic park is empty during the day.  Atleast i can see people on the mall in Cleveland during the day as there has been an uptick in programming/events.

 

 

 

 

[DaninDC]

I can speak to Baltimore.  Every time I go up there for a project, it's like, "Where are all the people at?"  Even near the much bally-hooed Inner Harbor, that place is dead as a doornail on a typical weekday.

[MyTwoSense]

I can speak to Baltimore.  Every time I go up there for a project, it's like, "Where are all the people at?"  Even near the much bally-hooed Inner Harbor, that place is dead as a doornail on a typical weekday.

 

Whoa!  We agree on something.  Stop the pressess!  :-D  who'd a thunk?!

 

I was there a few times for some adelphia meetings.  You're right.  That Harbor is so overated.  Cleveland has a lot to do with NCH, but Baltimore's Harbor area sorta gave me the feeling of being nautical Legacy Village lite - yet more dangerous.

[Old AmrapinVA]

Aw c'mon...lets be like Bob Stark and think big. How about a 2,000 ft.-150 story building. We could put the convention center in there. And TWO hotels. How about three "Windows on the World". Six grocery stores. The Cavs practice facility could move back from Independence. We could build a lighthouse on top....and a helipad...hell, lets build a new airport runway up there. We could cover the building in Japanese billboards and have gigantic Pokemon waving at folks down on Public Square. But a dome on top of the lighthouse and have one helluva New Year's celebration. Is Cleveland a city...or a CITY, damn it!?! ;)

[Map Boy]

don't forget about the zeppelin docking station on one of the upper floors...

[Old AmrapinVA]

Thanks I forgot about that....and we could house three...maybe four casinos in there. Screw Detroit and their Midwest casino monopoly! :)

[3231]

Might as well have Dayton move into the building..

[Old AmrapinVA]

How about this bad boy below, with a few more 'Chinese food boxes'. It could serve two purposes: Fill in old PS, and increase awareness of Cleveland's Chinatown:

 

[jamiec]

I saw that building on a Discovery Channel show about the planned "Sky City" building that will hold 140,000. That thing was gross. I like urbanism, but that futuristic thing was a little too freaky for me.

[KJP]

don't forget about the zeppelin docking station on one of the upper floors...

 

We already have one of those downtown. Are there pictures of it anywhere? It's gotta be one of Cleveland's biggest secrets!

[MayDay]

Pshaw - I have a photo somewhere. It's where I signed my contract for my book! :)

[Map Boy]

that's what I was alluding to!  but you're right...it is a pretty big (and cool) secret!

[Jeff]

A zepplin docking station in Cleveland?

 

 

[MayDay]

Here we are - the 21st floor of the Huntington Building, now site of Sammys Metropolitan restaurant was once a waiting area for zeppelin passengers. Unfortunately, that whole Hindenburg thing put the kibbosh on it before it was ever used for blimp travel.

 

[mrnyc]

^ oh but the zep did dock, i have proof -- the infamous cleveland "destroyer" bootleg cd from 1977, highly recommended  :banger:

 

:laugh:

[MayDay]

"How about this bad boy below, with a few more 'Chinese food boxes'. It could serve two purposes: Fill in old PS, and increase awareness of Cleveland's Chinatown:"

 

Ok, I'm always in favor of creative approaches - I'm just not feeling this one (with apologies to Paul who took the original pic) :|

 

[clvlndr]

Baker & Hostetler doesn't need to be near the courthouses; they're a large national corporate firm.  B-H's young associates are the ones who go dash to the court houses while the senior associates and partners stay in the office manage, negotiate contracts and the like -- or hop planes to do the same in other cities... Keep in mind, Jones Day, one of the nation's largest law firms is HQ'd at North Point, about as far as you can get from courthouses while still being downtown...

 

... as for Flat's Offices, namely Wolstein's East Bank (formerly DFAS-planned) building, I'm getting a bit weary of all these planners and offices (most notably the County Commissioners) saying the Flats is too isolated; too far away, for their workers/businesses ... If that's the case, Wolstein might as well take the building off the drawing board because every business can beg off making the same claim... (once again) look at Stonebridge -- they have the important County Engineer's offices (among others) not only down in the Flats, but on the other side of the river, no less -- sure isn't hurting them.  Yeah, sure, I'd love to see a lot of the empty buildings along Euclid and Superior filled with big tenants, but once again, our conservative nature is causing a good idea to potentially go for naught.  I think Wolstein's EBank office building idea is a good one; it would definitely add to the Tennant mix and boost both retail and work at home types.  Not to mention you've got both the Waterfront and the Rapid at your door.

[KJP]

Here we are - the 21st floor of the Huntington Building, now site of Sammys Metropolitan restaurant was once a waiting area for zeppelin passengers. Unfortunately, that whole Hindenburg thing put the kibbosh on it before it was ever used for blimp travel.

 

Thanks for posting that. But for some reason I remember there also is a room with a higher cieling that looks like an old train station concourse. Perhaps I'm not remembering it right?

 

BTW, I think the thing that caused that site to not be used for blimp travel were the high winds atop the Huntington Building (ex-Union Trust Bank) which made it difficult to attached a mooring rope. The building was finished in 1924, but the Hindenburg didn't crash until 1937. The Empire State Building was also designed for mooring an airship, but suffered the same problem with high winds.

[MayDay]

You're right about the winds - serves me right for trying to post while downloading from iTunes, photoshopping a few dozen pics, and eating a late dinner  :-P

[KJP]

"No Excuses" - Donna Rice

[3231]

trivia: anyone know how led zeppelin got its name?

[3 Dog Pat]

^Something about how the guys in the band would be as successful as a lead zepplin

[Florida Guy]

^ oh but the zep did dock, i have proof -- the infamous cleveland "destroyer" bootleg CD from 1977, highly recommended   :banger:

 

:laugh:

LOL... You inspired me to find out more about this concert being it was years before my concert viewing age. It sold out for two nights at the Richfiled Coliseum. I might have to get my hands on a copy of that CD!

 

My older brother attended one of the "World Series of Rock" concerts at the old Cleveland Stadium. I had a faded out t-shirt from the concert for many years.

 

He attended the 1979 W.S.O.R. with AC/DC, Aerosmith, Ted Nugent, Journey, and Thin Lizzy. More than 80,000 people were in attendance.

 

The annual "World Series of Rock" concerts were held at Cleveland Municipal Stadium from 1974 - 1979 drawing the biggest names in rock and setting attendance records.

 

Anyway, back to the topic...

[Florida Guy]

"How about this bad boy below, with a few more 'Chinese food boxes'. It could serve two purposes: Fill in old PS, and increase awareness of Cleveland's Chinatown:"

 

Ok, I'm always in favor of creative approaches - I'm just not feeling this one (with apologies to Paul who took the original pic) :|

 

 

Yes, and what exactly happend to the Terminal Tower anyway?

[3231]

here's some very nice news..

 

PR Newswire adding 100 jobs in Cleveland

 

 

 

5:49 p.m.

 

As it closes offices in other cities, PR Newswire, a communications firm, plans to consolidate a large chunk of its operations in Cleveland. The move is expected to add more than 100 jobs here.

 

David Armon, the New York company's chief operating officer, said an unknown number of employees from other bureaus are expected to relocate, with many locals likely to be hired.

 

More at cleveland.com http://www.cleveland.com

[zaceman]

great news

[jamiec]

This IS interesting. Sounds good to me! 

[LovesIt]

EEE, PR jobs moving to Cleveland, how fun for soon-to-be PR graduates ;)

[MyTwoSense]

YEAH!!!!  PR PEOPLE RULE!

 

 

[blinker12]

Fantastic!!! PR Newswire could also help attract aspiring journalists... it is often regarded as a stepping stone to writing for newspapers and magazines.

[bertram von]

Here's more enthusiastic chatter about a new office building downtown. I'm not sure why there's so much talk of the East Bank when everything seems to be purely speculation at this point.

 

I say there's no clear need for a new office building downtown as long as the Atrium continues to disintegrate in one of the most visible spots downtown. It's not Class A now, but maybe it could be brought up to that level, and for far less than it would cost to build new.

 

 

 

Monday October 2, 2006

 

Baker Hostetler search may alter office landscape

Law firm’s massive space needs could spell end to decade-plus construction drought downtown

 

By STAN BULLARD

Crain's Cleveland

 

6:00 am, October 2, 2006

 

Baker Hostetler won’t say much about where its Cleveland office home may be in two years. But a buzz is rising in downtown circles that the big law firm could serve as the catalyst for the city’s first new downtown office building in 15 years.

 

How about this Class 'A' office location - stripped of composite metal and renovated or new construction (heck, they'd only have to move across the street!):

 

 

[smackem81]

^Thats one of the ugliest buildings in the city. I dont like the ameritrust building, but that one is much worse.

[jamiec]

hahaha. My dentist is in there! He's awesome, and his office is actually pretty nice. But that's all because somebody is good at decorating.

 

They'd need to do some major modifications if they want to make that place a high-traffic office. The elevators are like coffins and the security people are HORRIBLE. Who thought that new metal crap was a good idea?

 

 

[j73]

CB Richard Ellis has just posted their review of Q3 office market in Cleveland:

http://gkc2.cbrichardellis.com/GlobalMarketReports/us/cleveland3q06ofcdt.pdf

Generally positive news.  Here are some highlights:

- Vacancy rates still high, but at their lowest levels since end of 2003.  With lots of deals announced, they expect continued firming in the market during Q4 and likely into 2007.

- They also noted that Forest City will bring the Higbee building to market in phases during 2007. (It looks like this has been noted in past reports, but I never noticed).

- As for new construction, every past issue of this has said things like "no new office bldg construction for the foreseeable future".  This edition softens that a bit to no new developments for 12 to 36 mos.  Not great, but an improvement.

 

 

[KJP]

- As for new construction, every past issue of this has said things like "no new office bldg construction for the foreseeable future".  This edition softens that a bit to no new developments for 12 to 36 mos.  Not great, but an improvement.

 

Interesting that they would put a timeline on that. Sounds like it may be coinciding with the Baker Hostetler situation?

[zaceman]

Market for downtown offices holds steady

 

By STAN BULLARD

 

9:10 am, October 23, 2006

 

 

 

Grubb & Ellis Co.’s third-quarter office survey dubs downtown Cleveland the region’s “most active submarket.”

 

Through Sept. 30, the absorption of office space downtown exceeded the suburbs by 14% — 314,450 square feet downtown compared to 276,723 square feet in the suburbs.

 

The numbers indicate the downtown market continues on the upswing for a second straight year. However, vacancy rates of both remain high: 21% downtown, 17% in the suburbs.

 

[Map Boy]

Great news!  Is that 314,450 square feet absorbed in the quarter or for the year?