Cincinnati: Liberty Street Road Diet

[BigDipper 80 181]

How is an extra, what is it, 16 feet of land added back to the southern half of the plots on the south side of the street going to suddenly make that area more attractive to homeless people? Ideally those lots wouldn't be long for the world anyway and get redeveloped with buildings, although I guess the type of people Cranley is pandering to have never seen a parking lot redeveloped beyond a new Smokey Bones being plopped down outside of a shopping mall or whatever. 

[troeros 110]

1 hour ago, ryanlammi said:

How did the committee vote go? I know it failed, but I'm curious who was on the committee and how they voted.

 

David Mann was the only yes vote for the ordinance the rest voted no. Thankfully...

[troeros 110]

I'm honestly embarrassed that Cranley is our mayor. Everything about Cranley seems so suburban oriented. He seems exactly like the type of family dad who lives in mason, has 3 SUV's, lives in a McMansion and loves to park at their local chain restaurant on a Saturday night, and maybe go to the adventurous Fox and the Hound or Buffalo Wild Wings for an exciting night cap. 

 

I'm trying to understand why he even ran for mayor of cincinnati in the first place, when it seems like his heart is aching the for the white dominated suburbia of Mason! Please cranley all the white people will love you there! There's nothing but parking lots, chain restaurants, and no poverty or homelessness! Please come home! 

Edited April 1 by troeros

[jmecklenborg 536]

6 hours ago, taestell said:

There is a pretty clear line between these things. "Hey Pendleton, if you agree to the 7 lane option we'll redirect that extra money to your neighborhood..." This is what Cranley does best--pit neighborhoods against each other and let them fight it out. The level of corruption and back room dealing in this administration is absolutely insane.

 

 

Cincinnati does not have 50-odd neighborhoods.  It has about 10.  Pendleton is absolutely, positively, not an area distinct physically or demographically or culturally from Over-the-Rhine.  With all of these damn "neighborhoods", it's a piece of cake for a demagogue like Cranley to divide and conquer. 

 

The average person in an apartment building has virtually zero interaction with other people in that same apartment building.  So why do we think that the level of non-interaction between people who have the same mailing address and maybe share a wall means something more than people over in the next "neighborhood" with whom they have no interaction either?   

 

 

 

 

Edited April 2 by jmecklenborg

[ColDayMan 591]

3 hours ago, troeros said:

I'm honestly embarrassed that Cranley is our mayor. Everything about Cranley seems so suburban oriented. He seems exactly like the type of family dad who lives in mason, has 3 SUV's, lives in a McMansion and loves to park at their local chain restaurant on a Saturday night, and maybe go to the adventurous Fox and the Hound or Buffalo Wild Wings for an exciting night cap. 

 

I'm trying to understand why he even ran for mayor of cincinnati in the first place, when it seems like his heart is aching the for the white dominated suburbia of Mason! Please cranley all the white people will love you there! There's nothing but parking lots, chain restaurants, and no poverty or homelessness! Please come home! 

 

You do know there are more white people in Cincinnati than Mason, correct?  And a lot of them like parking lots, chain restaurants, and, well, suburban things.  Not all (clearly) but a lot.  Oakley Station, Rookwood, and Glenway Crossing should tell you all you need to know about the "Cranley voter."

[GCrites80s 397]

Yes, I can totally picture a lot of my "young, cool" neighbors from my Oakley days 10-12 years ago totally voting for Cranley even if they voted for Obama. They were just a little too "button-down Cincinnati not to. Now did the kind of folk that hung out a few blocks north at Slammer's vote for Cranley? They might have skipped that part of the ballot.

[jmecklenborg 536]

^Few of Slammer's clientele has a proof-of-ID, so no, they didn't vote.  They did smoke a pack or two that day, though. 

[GCrites80s 397]

I have a sneaking suspicion that Slammer's has closed. Need confirmation by a current Cincinnatian. Yelp says so and is full of East Sideisms such as "Bathroom was foul" (calling things "foul" is a localism) and "This is a dart bar" (as in "it is a music bar!" or "It's a game store! That's what they sell.")

[cincydave8 58]

As long as our city elections are on an off year and not lined up with the federal elections where turnout is actually above 15% people like Cranley will be elected Mayor. It's the same reason we have council members like Amy Murray and Jeff Pastor. 

 

Also, Cranley's playing a long game. He wants higher office and knows he'll have to win votes in the suburbs in the future. 

Edited April 2 by cincydave8

[troeros 110]

I'm personally rooting for P.G. He seems like the most urban oriented candidate that has a legit chance of winning. Plus he is a resident of OTR if I'm not mistaken.  

[GCrites80s 397]

2 hours ago, cincydave8 said:

As long as our city elections are on an off year and not lined up with the federal elections where turnout is actually above 15% people like Cranley will be elected Mayor. It's the same reason we have council members like Amy Murray and Jeff Pastor. 

 

Also, Cranley's playing a long game. He wants higher office and knows he'll have to win votes in the suburbs in the future. 

 

The price of all that suburb stroking is that anyone else in the state that actually knows who he is despises him.

[DEPACincy 401]

1 hour ago, troeros said:

I'm personally rooting for P.G. He seems like the most urban oriented candidate that has a legit chance of winning. Plus he is a resident of OTR if I'm not mistaken.  

 

I actually think he lives in East Walnut Hills. 

[jmecklenborg 536]

13 hours ago, GCrites80s said:

I have a sneaking suspicion that Slammer's has closed. Need confirmation by a current Cincinnatian. Yelp says so and is full of East Sideisms such as "Bathroom was foul" (calling things "foul" is a localism) and "This is a dart bar" (as in "it is a music bar!" or "It's a game store! That's what they sell.")

 

I'll have to drive by.  I was there most recently in 2015 or thereabouts.  No respect for the smoking ban. 

 

[wjh2 4]

27 minutes ago, jmecklenborg said:

 

I'll have to drive by.  I was there most recently in 2015 or thereabouts.  No respect for the smoking ban. 

 

 

Yes Slammers closed a few months ago. 

[Rabbit Hash 26]

20 hours ago, troeros said:

I'm honestly embarrassed that Cranley is our mayor. Everything about Cranley seems so suburban oriented. He seems exactly like the type of family dad who lives in mason, has 3 SUV's, lives in a McMansion and loves to park at their local chain restaurant on a Saturday night, and maybe go to the adventurous Fox and the Hound or Buffalo Wild Wings for an exciting night cap. 

 

I'm trying to understand why he even ran for mayor of cincinnati in the first place, when it seems like his heart is aching the for the white dominated suburbia of Mason! Please cranley all the white people will love you there! There's nothing but parking lots, chain restaurants, and no poverty or homelessness! Please come home! 

I share your embarrassment. But you don't have to say all this to say what is needed about his lack of appreciation for smart urbanism and growth. Sheesh.

[Gordon Bombay 45]

15 hours ago, GCrites80s said:

I have a sneaking suspicion that Slammer's has closed. Need confirmation by a current Cincinnatian. Yelp says so and is full of East Sideisms such as "Bathroom was foul" (calling things "foul" is a localism) and "This is a dart bar" (as in "it is a music bar!" or "It's a game store! That's what they sell.")

 

Used to live by it and it has been closed for awhile if not a year. The Flying Pig next door is a great local spot, though. 

[troeros 110]

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10157326452683559&id=510173558

 

URGENT

If you support the 5-lane Liberty Street road diet, please take a couple seconds to email Matthew.Andrews@Cincinnati-OH.gov

Tell him, "I support the 5 lane option. I am a resident/business owner/employee/property owner of OTR."

Pick which applies to you. And sub your neighborhood for OTR when applicable.

[taestell 741]

^ I would recommend everyone here who supports the road diet take a second to send Mr. Andrews an email ASAP. Apparently the road diet will be discussed in tonight's city council meeting at 6 p.m., so try to send your emails no later than this afternoon!

[LAW 21 0]

The vote was postponed again.

[troeros 110]

Pastor, being the swing vote, doesn't like the idea of the elimination of on street parking during day hours. So can we just implement the plan with on street parking during day hours and the reduced 5 lanes?

[ColDayMan 591]

Showdown delayed: City Council shelves plan to narrow Liberty Street

 

 

The Cincinnati City Council delayed another vote Wednesday night on whether to narrow Liberty Street from seven to five lanes and return some right of way to the south side of the street for redevelopment.

 

In asking for the delay, Councilman Chris Seelbach, a Democrat and the measure’s chief supporter, said he did not yet have the six votes needed to override a likely veto from Mayor John Cranley and to ensure the city administration carried out the project.

 

“At this point, we only have five votes. We’re working on a sixth vote. That person needs some more time to have some more meetings,” Seelbach said.

 

The swing vote is believed to be Councilman Jeff Pastor, a Republican. Council already has approved an ordinance to fund the project in October over Cranley’s veto.

 

Cranley opposes the ordinance, citing the increased potential traffic from FC Cincinnati games at its West End stadium starting in 2021 and short supply of parking in Over-the-Rhine. About 78 on-street spaces would be eliminated during the daytime. His office has been trying to build opposition from Over-the-Rhine businesses and restaurants that have been concerned about the new residential parking permit program in the neighborhood and urging them to speak out against the plan.

 

More below:

https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2019/04/04/showdown-delayed-city-council-shelves-plan-to.html

[BigDipper 80 181]

Does the Elm and Liberty project have plans for a garage? That'll probably be at least 78 spaces right there. And I'd be willing to bet that at least one new development on a recombined parcel on the south side of Liberty would end up having a parking component to it too. 

 

And the capacity/traffic thing is such a red herring. The 5 lane option has the exact same capacity as the 7 lane option. Stop making mountains out of molehills.

Edited April 5 by BigDipper 80

[troeros 110]

A 6 lane plan is being offered as the compromise...with (I'm assuming since Jeff pastor wanted available on street parking) on street parking at the curb of the outer lanes...making it essentially 4 lanes of traffic flow. 

 

[ryanlammi 364]

I would rather wait until the 2021 election so we can vote in a better council/mayor and get this done properly.

 

If we spend a bunch of money to do a half-baked diet, it will be impossible to get the full diet accomplished within the next couple decades. And by that point the development on the southern side of Liberty will already be completed, making the additional ~10 feet of develope-able space obsolete.

[troeros 110]

13 minutes ago, ryanlammi said:

I would rather wait until the 2021 election so we can vote in a better council/mayor and get this done properly.

 

If we spend a bunch of money to do a half-baked diet, it will be impossible to get the full diet accomplished within the next couple decades. And by that point the development on the southern side of Liberty will already be completed, making the additional ~10 feet of develope-able space obsolete.

 

Even then we don't know what mayor we will end up with let alone what new council members we will get either. 

 

I think the 6 lane option with buffering on street parking and 4 travel lanes sounds like a good alternative if there had to be one. 

[10albersa 61]

4 driving lanes is worse than having an odd number.  There are so many cross-streets that a center turn lane is a must-have on Liberty.

Edited April 11 by 10albersa

[taestell 741]

26 minutes ago, ryanlammi said:

I would rather wait until the 2021 election so we can vote in a better council/mayor and get this done properly.

 

I agree with the sentiment, but we need to do this ASAP or it's never going to happen. 3CDC is going to develop their lots on the south side of the street within the next 3 years or so. If they build up to the current south side of Liberty, there is no point in narrowing it after that. You could still reconfigure the street but it wouldn't be a "diet", it would just be a reconfiguring the existing 90' width. If we can narrow it to 80' now there is a higher likelihood that we could reconfigure the space in between at a late date. It needs to break ground within the next 18 months or we miss the opportunity forever.

[ryanlammi 364]

Are there a ton of developments waiting to happen bordering the south side of Liberty? I haven't heard of any. Obviously 2 years is a decent amount of time, but I don't think we should rush this through now if we can get it done properly in two years.

[GCrites80s 397]

As it stands right now I fear Slither is going to win the 2021 mayoral race.

[thebillshark 90]

38 minutes ago, troeros said:

A 6 lane plan is being offered as the compromise...with (I'm assuming since Jeff pastor wanted available on street parking) on street parking at the curb of the outer lanes...making it essentially 4 lanes of traffic flow. 

 

 

Source?

[taestell 741]

10 minutes ago, 10albersa said:

4 driving lanes is worse than having an odd number.  There are so many cross streets that a center turn lane is a must-have on Liberty.

 

 I am guessing that a "six lane option" would be: off-peak parking | driving | center turn | driving | driving | full-time parking

 

So, driving west you always have two driving lanes and one permanent parking lane (so it reduces or eliminates the argument about losing daytime parking). Driving east you have two driving lanes during peak hours and one driving lane + one parking lane off-peak.

 

But if we have the opportunity to narrow the total width from 90' to 80', that still helps with pedestrian safety; and we can always reconfigure that 80' width in the future.

[taestell 741]

10 minutes ago, ryanlammi said:

Are there a ton of developments waiting to happen bordering the south side of Liberty? I haven't heard of any. Obviously 2 years is a decent amount of time, but I don't think we should rush this through now if we can get it done properly in two years.

 

But delaying this project until the next mayor isn't a two year delay. When the new mayor takes office a new "study" will kick off in 2022. Then it will go out for bid. And it'll be like 2024 or 2025 before it's actually open.

 

If 3CDC builds their new development between Elm and Race up to the current south side of the street (I'm guessing it will break ground before our next mayor takes office), all you can do is reconfigure the 90' ROW. I guess you could go with the Brewery District's proposed bike lane option at that point.

[troeros 110]

12 minutes ago, thebillshark said:

 

Source?

 

Mike Moroski was presented the 6 lane option today during the special CPS meeting as the ongoing comprimise choice.

[taestell 741]

Obviously, it's ridiculous and disappointing that the City Administration is not moving forward with the five lane option right now given that it was previously approved by DOTE, approved by both of the affected neighborhoods (OTR and Mt. Auburn), and approved by a supermajority of City Council. I am still holding out hope that City Council can get 6 votes together to approve the 5 lane option ... again ... and finally get the City Manager to move forward with it.

 

However, if the best "compromise" that we can get is a six lane option, I still think it's worth doing. A six lane option would narrow the street from 90' to 80', and narrow the pedestrian crossing distance from 70' to 50'. And, if we got a more progressive Mayor in the future, who was actually interested in implementing Vision Zero style traffic calming projects and building more bike lanes, we could easily reconfigure the street.

 

The six lane option, as it would probably be built today:

 

 

The same 80' width could be reconfigured in the future with a new protected cycle track that connects to the Central Parkway bike lanes, which will hopefully also be extended to Northside in the future:

 

[thebillshark 90]

19 minutes ago, taestell said:

Obviously, it's ridiculous and disappointing that the City Administration is not moving forward with the five lane option right now given that it was previously approved by DOTE, approved by both of the affected neighborhoods (OTR and Mt. Auburn), and approved by a supermajority of City Council. I am still holding out hope that City Council can get 6 votes together to approve the 5 lane option ... again ... and finally get the City Manager to move forward with it.

 

However, if the best "compromise" that we can get is a six lane option, I still think it's worth doing. A six lane option would narrow the street from 90' to 80', and narrow the pedestrian crossing distance from 70' to 50'. And, if we got a more progressive Mayor in the future, who was actually interested in implementing Vision Zero style traffic calming projects and building more bike lanes, we could easily reconfigure the street in the future.

 

The six lane option, as it would probably be built today:

 

 

The same 80' width could be reconfigured in the future with a new protected cycle track that connects to the Central Parkway bike lanes, which will hopefully also be extended to Northside in the future:

 

 

At the latest open house at the Woodward DOTE said the cycle track option was unfeasible because of safety concerns. (Didn’t go into much detail) 

Edited April 15 by thebillshark

[taestell 741]

That's exactly what I would expect our current car-prioritizing DOTE to say. Other cities across the country—big and small, in red states and in blue states—are all building all kinds of cycle tracks, bike lanes, and traffic calming projects, but our current DOTE is constantly coming up with excuses why we can't do it and why "it wouldn't work here." It would take a future pro-Vision Zero mayor who would appoint a more pro-Vision Zero DOTE head to make it happen.

[BigDipper 80 181]

Heck, 50 miles up the road Dayton is not only putting a 17' cycle track on the new Third Street bridge, it is extending that cycle track along West Third through the Wright-Dunbar neighborhood to better connect the west side of the city to the bike network. All this is after Dayton already narrowed the road, a major westside artery, from 4 travel lanes to 2 and added multiple bumpouts throughout the Wright-Dunbar business district. 

[thebillshark 90]

46 minutes ago, BigDipper 80 said:

Heck, 50 miles up the road Dayton is not only putting a 17' cycle track on the new Third Street bridge, it is extending that cycle track along West Third through the Wright-Dunbar neighborhood to better connect the west side of the city to the bike network. All this is after Dayton already narrowed the road, a major westside artery, from 4 travel lanes to 2 and added multiple bumpouts throughout the Wright-Dunbar business district. 

 

Dayton has a really strong bicycling community and culture. Probably a part of Huffy and Wright Bros. legacy 

[taestell 741]

 

[ryanlammi 364]

Hopefully it's not the 6-lane option and includes the full 5-lane diet.