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Cincinnati: Over-the-Rhine: 3CDC Development and News

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55 minutes ago, IAGuy39 said:

I thought it would be cool if Behlen was a brighter color or a dark red. I wonder what goes into the selection process in regards to color? I know next to nothing about this so please don't make fun of me for suggesting!

 

I have heard that cities are legally not allowed to mandate specific colors that are allowed or disallowed in historic districts. So it is basically up to the developer. I wonder if 3CDC has some sort of internal palette that the use for their projects.

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4 minutes ago, taestell said:

 

I have heard that cities are legally not allowed to mandate specific colors that are allowed or disallowed in historic districts. So it is basically up to the developer. I wonder if 3CDC has some sort of internal palette that the use for their projects.

 

It seems they could make it a super bright and colorful area but most of the colors are pretty understated, they probably want the focus on the stores and the background be the beautiful buildings.

 

I've never been to Charleston but it seems their historic district is a bit more colorful/light. It is also on the ocean so goes more with that.

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10 hours ago, troeros said:

 

Is 3cdc just doing structural stabilization or did they announce plans already for this building? The coming soon banner has been up on weilerts for a while, so I hope that a full rehab is now in progress to bring a new tenant...also I wont accept anything less than a late night beer hall/beer garden...anything else would be a missed opportunity. 

Totally agree. If I had infinite money I’d love to put a German beer hall in there. 

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7 hours ago, IAGuy39 said:

 

It seems they could make it a super bright and colorful area but most of the colors are pretty understated, they probably want the focus on the stores and the background be the beautiful buildings.

 

I've never been to Charleston but it seems their historic district is a bit more colorful/light. It is also on the ocean so goes more with that.

 

The brightly painted buildings fade pretty quickly in Cincinnati.  At best the full vividness lasts a year, and of course some colors and paint types fade much more quickly than others. 

 

In the south the sunlight is significantly brighter, plus the bright colors are often stucco, not painted brick.  I remember the first time I took a manual 35mm camera to Miami.  I saw light meter readings that were 2 stops brighter than anything I had ever seen in Cincinnati, so 4x brighter. 

 

Also, I can remember when specific houses were painted, and how great they looked at the time, and how awful they look now.  For example, this house near the zoo was the star of the block when it was painted in 1998 or 1999.  Now it's just a bum:

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.1394479,-84.5094589,3a,27.1y,310.62h,92.29t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1szX67NqL8hFMcrvcRUuLiSw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

 

 

 

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9 hours ago, GCrites80s said:

That's but one reason why painting brick is a very bad idea.

 

Some brick needs to be painted for proper maintenance - but yeah - if your brick isn't painted, don't paint it.

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Additionally, a TON of buildings in OTR have completely new brick patched in all over, sometimes entire facades. As a result the raw brick is extremely unsightly.

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10 minutes ago, jmecklenborg said:

Yet another OTR business I didn't hear about until it closed.  Get neon signs.  Advertise on the radio. 

nashville-3102_zpsayiudenm.jpg

 

 

They aren't closing, they are relocating because of 3cdc request. Panino is very popular especially with the lunch crowd. 

Edited by troeros

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2 minutes ago, cincydave8 said:

Dang, I love Panino. Where are they moving to? 

 

No clue. I imagine they will stay in otr, they are pretty ingrained with the business community and are part of the otr food tours. 

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Just now, Chas Wiederhold said:

I would assume it has something to do with Ghost Baby going below. They may want to have a more fashionable bar rather than a restaurant/butcher in the space.

 

I almost wonder if any of the meat scent would linger down to the cellars? That could be a logical reason for the move if so. 

 

Ghost baby owners may have also wanted to have a ground floor bar, with signage facing Vine Street rather than being hidden away behind republic. 

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24 minutes ago, troeros said:

 

I almost wonder if any of the meat scent would linger down to the cellars? That could be a logical reason for the move if so.

 

Chicken wing blood dripping through the floors. 

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Dumb question but without moving Panino or cutting into Union Hall's entrance how else would you enter into Ghost Baby? I feel like this move definitely has to do with access/egress of the space below. 

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8 minutes ago, ucgrady said:

Dumb question but without moving Panino or cutting into Union Hall's entrance how else would you enter into Ghost Baby? I feel like this move definitely has to do with access/egress of the space below. 

 

I was under the impression their was a side entrance off of republic. 

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41 minutes ago, troeros said:

 

I was under the impression their was a side entrance off of republic. 

That is my understanding. The elevator is at the rear of the cellars near Republic, so that makes the most sense.

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On 12/12/2019 at 10:16 AM, 1400 Sycamore said:

Painted Brick is fine. Unpainted brick requires constant sealing and tuck pointing which no one does. The paint protects the brick and lasts longer than painted wood siding


This is very wrong. A lot of paint applications are extremely harmful to brick facades. Bricks have pores that need to breathe in order to maintain the brick's integrity. When painted, these pores are sealed off and freeze-thaw cycles can cause serious damage. Furthermore, the paint is next to impossible to remove once applied, so the natural brick facade is basically lost forever. 

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3 hours ago, Largue said:


This is very wrong. A lot of paint applications are extremely harmful to brick facades. Bricks have pores that need to breathe in order to maintain the brick's integrity. When painted, these pores are sealed off and freeze-thaw cycles can cause serious damage. Furthermore, the paint is next to impossible to remove once applied, so the natural brick facade is basically lost forever. 

 

I've been instructed by brick masons with knowledge of the bricks from the 19th century that the worse thing to do is paint these for the exact same reasons.  It kills me to see every building remodel in OTR and West End topped off with a fresh coat of paint.   The building I own has been painted several times over during the 20th century and I have some areas where spalling is a big problem.

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On 12/13/2019 at 11:43 AM, mcmicken said:

That is my understanding. The elevator is at the rear of the cellars near Republic, so that makes the most sense.

 

Correct. Ghost Baby entrance will be on Republic. Staircase and elevator back there.

 

Panino moving has nothing to do with Ghost Baby. That spot is probably just too big for the gross % they pay 3CDC for rent and 3CDC wants them in a smaller footprint.

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If the brick was painted before, it should be painted again, but it has to be a vapor-permeable paint.  Cincinnati has a lot of very soft and porous brick, especially the orange common brick on the side and rear of many buildings, and it simply doesn't hold up without being painted.  That brick doesn't have the "shell" found on harder face brick to prevent moisture penetration.  The same goes for brick that's been sandblasted, since the hard surface has been blasted off, exposing the softer more porous interior.  Now, if brick hasn't ever been painted, then there's no reason to paint it if it's not deteriorating, but it can also be very difficult to match brick color in patches and repairs.  Damage could also be caused by improper mortar repairs rather than paint or a lack thereof.  Mortar must always be softer than the brick, but modern Portland cement mortar is harder than most older bricks, causing them to crush from freeze/thaw cycles, leaving a honeycomb of empty cells.  Old bricks need a lime mortar instead of Portland cement. 

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When I decided to paint these 150 year old bricks, we gathered paint chips from years of debris in the yard, under the brick patio, since it appeared that the brick had been painted pre WWII. We screened them and made a composite formula which was vetted with some guys who used to work for me now at Sherwin Williams and who interface with the Smithsonian.

 

The Civil War brick (the row houses were built in 1863 and 1865 respectively, are so soft you can excavate them on the inside of the building with a fingernail.

 

So I don't really need advice on this.

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On 12/13/2019 at 11:00 AM, troeros said:

https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2019/12/13/over-the-rhine-restaurant-closes.html

 

Love the 3cdc spokesperson quote, "We hate to see a tenant close."....like dude you forced them to! Wtf?!

"The LL asked us to leave" is an easy way to say "we stopped paying rent". It makes zero sense for 3CDC to 'force out' a tenant that pays rent. There is no deal worth moving a tenant out for unless the existing tenant isn't abiding by the lease. 

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56 minutes ago, ZoeBarnes said:

It makes zero sense for 3CDC to 'force out' a tenant that pays rent.

 

Unless a new tenant is willing to pay more.  Or someone wants to buy the building and doesn't want said tenant.  Or the tenant is a nuisance and causing other tenants to leave.  

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3CDC is not a normal landlord. They program their retail spaces in the same way that shopping malls do. Just like a mall wants certain types of tenants in their Nordstrom wing and certain types of tenants in their Dillards wing... 3CDC has a certain vision for the kind of tenants they want on Vine, on Walnut, on Court, etc. This is not the first time they have relocated an existing tenant to put them in a different part of the neighborhood that they believe is a better "fit".

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4 hours ago, jjakucyk said:

 

Unless a new tenant is willing to pay more.  Or someone wants to buy the building and doesn't want said tenant.  Or the tenant is a nuisance and causing other tenants to leave.  

 

2 hours ago, taestell said:

3CDC is not a normal landlord. They program their retail spaces in the same way that shopping malls do. Just like a mall wants certain types of tenants in their Nordstrom wing and certain types of tenants in their Dillards wing... 3CDC has a certain vision for the kind of tenants they want on Vine, on Walnut, on Court, etc. This is not the first time they have relocated an existing tenant to put them in a different part of the neighborhood that they believe is a better "fit".

 

If they were just looking for someone to pay more rent the space would have been a Starbucks long ago. 3CDC doesnt own the building, only the commercial space and they never sell those. With a tenant moving in the basement Panino is clearly not causing other tenants to leave. 

 

If 3CDC didnt have the vision that is mentioned about, this prime location would have never been leased to a unique, local 'startup' business such as Panino. Those previous relocations aimed to get small offices or quieter services that dont rely on foot traffic off of the main drags. Pushing a restaurant off of Vine isnt the same concept. 

 

This restaurant was surely a huge investment for the tenant and 3CDC so the idea that this is some kind of strategic move as opposed to just a tenant not holding up their end of the lease is very unlikely. It is rare that I see that restaurant even half filled (despite the fact that the food is damn good). There are multiple commercial spaces coming online along Vine that will need tenants. Deliberately creating a gap in the street vibrancy can't be high on 3CDC's list of things to do. 

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4 hours ago, ZoeBarnes said:

If they were just looking for someone to pay more rent the space would have been a Starbucks long ago.

 

Right, 3CDC's primary goal is not maximizing revenue. Their goal is creating a more unique mix of businesses that attracts visitors to the core and helps sell condos to people who want to live around those types of places. I'm sure they have been approached by national chains who want to locate in OTR and have turned them down in favor of more unique local businesses. Even smaller chains like Aladdin's that have opened in OTR are in retail spaces owned by other companies that 3CDC does not control.

 

4 hours ago, ZoeBarnes said:

This restaurant was surely a huge investment for the tenant and 3CDC so the idea that this is some kind of strategic move as opposed to just a tenant not holding up their end of the lease is very unlikely.

 

From what I understand, 3CDC does not typically charge a flat rent for their retail spaces. They usually have an arrangement where the rent is calculated based to some degree on each business's sales. This forces 3CDC to have more "skin in the game" and incentivizes them to sign leases with businesses that they think will do well and compliment other nearby businesses, having an overall additive effect. It's likely that 3CDC paid for a large portion of Panino's buildout because they felt that it would do great lunch business with Union Hall, the Brandery, and eventually all of the office space that is being built out around 15th & Vine. Perhaps Panino's sales were not as strong as expected, or perhaps most of their business ended up being to-go orders. In that case, 3CDC may feel like it makes more sense for Panino to move to a smaller space with a more carry-out focus and put another restaurant that attracts more dine-in customers in Panino's old space.

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From what I have heard.... Panino was not making the rent. The word is they're moving up to Findlay Market into a Model Group space. Panino's food is killer but they had a huge bar in that space that always sat empty and it's in such a prime spot. 3CDC works on percentage rent deals with a floor base rent. Basically, 3CDC says, hey we'll put a lot more money into the buildout of your space than a typical landlord but we get 7% of your sales over an agreed upon sales threshold. The tenant pays a base rent but if they perform well and sales are over the threshold, 3CDC gets 7% of the amount over the threshold. I work in commercial real estate, happy to explain percent rent in more detail if you'd like. I've also worked on a 3CDC deal before.

Edited by d_burnham
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17 hours ago, d_burnham said:

From what I have heard.... Panino was not making the rent. The word is they're moving up to Findlay Market into a Model Group space. Panino's food is killer but they had a huge bar in that space that always sat empty and it's in such a prime spot. 3CDC works on percentage rent deals with a floor base rent. Basically, 3CDC says, hey we'll put a more money into the buildout of your space than a typical landlord but we get 7% of your sales over an agreed upon sales threshold. The tenant pays a base rent but if they perform well and sales are over the threshold, 3CDC gets 7% of the amount over the threshold. I work in commercial real estate, happy to explain percent rent in more detail if you'd like. I've also worked on a 3CDC deal before.

 

Thanks for sharing, this makes sense.  I also love Panino but I now realize that was probably too big and too prime of a location for the rent they were paying.  I love their food for weekday lunch but never purchased a single alcoholic beverage, which I assume is the key to making big numbers.  They'll do better in a spot like one that Pho Lang Thang had for years.  

Edited by nicker66

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3CDC just sold a pair of 25x100 lots on Race St. to John Huber Homes for $485,000.  The addresses are 1409 & 1411 Race:

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.1107688,-84.5170911,3a,75y,266.54h,88.52t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1szieYzOhkczvU7vmnkQVEfg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

 

I believe that $242,500 is the new record for OTR land prices.  

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That is a surprising large price.   However, with it being John Huber Homes, I am guessing that will be another couple of million dollar town homes.   Missed opportunity for some added density there with it being on the Streetcar line.

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