Cleveland: Crime & Safety Discussion

[REP4Cleveland216]

I mean I used to live in the bad areas of Cleveland and police would never come down the street and look out for whats going on. If they did come, they always came with at least 5 cars. That cant be good and its even getting badder as time goes on... :mrgreen:

[unusualfire]

nah we just keep our eyes and ears open more. ;) I live in Silverton, Ohio There is not change in crime here, but i can always hear siren ever couple of hours.

[bizbiz]

I haven't been through the entire state, but I would say that Elyria and parts of Lorain may be worse per capita in my opinion.

 

I don't like calling Cleveland a bad city - only parts of the city have problems. Downtown, Tremont, Fairfax, University Circle, and Ohio City are NOT bad areas.

 

However, anything north of University Circle and east of Rockefeller Park is fair game for a very rough area, all the way into East Cleveland. Same thing between E. 79th and E. 105th all along Quincy and Woodland. Most of the CMHA along E. 55th is ridden with crime. As for the west side of Cleveland, I would have to say that the most crime is centered around Scranton and Clark.

[Magyar]

I haven't been through the entire state, but I would say that Elyria and parts of Lorain may be worse per capita in my opinion.

 

You might want to let the fine folks in Youngstown know that.  They (Ok, 2 posters) seem to think their city is turning into a remake of Escape from New York.

[zaceman]

i remember seeing stats for metro area crime and cleveland-lorain-elyria was one of the lowest.  youngstown was one of the higher ones. 

[buildingcincinnati]

I've also seen stats (Morgan Quitno) that have Cleveland as the 20th most dangerous city (pop. 75,000+) and Cincinnati as 25th.

 

Youngstown was 7th in the list of cities pop. 75K-100K.

 

I've seen other studies that disagree with this, though, and it also depends on the crime.  For example, I saw an article the other day where Greater Columbus led the state in auto thefts in 2004.

[KJP]

nah we just keep our eyes and ears open more. ;) I live in Silverton, Ohio There is not change in crime here, but i can always hear siren ever couple of hours.

 

I live near the Lakewood-Cleveland border (one the safer parts of the dense urban core), and in the summertime, there isn't a time when I can't hear sirens, from about 7 p.m. to 2 a.m. Granted, many of these are from ambulances/rescue squads, but I'm sure many are from police. But there is always a siren someplace, near or far, that can be heard at any given time during these hot summer nights in the city.

 

KJP

[urbanlife]

Downtown bears brunt of Cleveland car break-ins

Saturday, August 20, 2005

...

[the pope]

 

 

"Next time I go out downtown, I won't leave anything lying around" in her car, she said.

 

 

seriously i just thought that was common street sense. I know it does suck that one has to have "street sense", but isn't that one of the first lessons anyone should know about downtowns?

[buildingcincinnati]

There were people getting their cars broken into down here for leaving their purses in the car.  On the front seat.  In plain view.  In busy parking lots.

 

No lie.

[zaceman]

maybe they should have taken RTA instead...

[urbanlife]

...

[MayDay]

"His successor, Mayor Jane Campbell, who lives in another part of town, has cut police jobs."

 

And the police union, unlike any other part of Cleveland's safety forces, wouldn't budge an inch as far as concessions to save ANY of their jobs.

[Evergrey]

Cleveland is a "den of scum and villainy"!

[X]

That's what we like about it!

[buildingcincinnati]

It seems like this is a trend that's being repeated in most of the larger cities of Ohio. From the 10/30/05 PD:

 

 

Violent crime up in city, led by more homicides

Sunday, October 30, 2005

John P. Coyne

Plain Dealer Reporter

 

Fueled by a 35 percent increase in homicides, violent crime in Cleveland climbed nearly 10 percent in the first nine months of this year, compared with the same period a year ago.

 

Robberies and car thefts also showed double-digit increases this year, according to police statistics. The city reported a 4.3 percent increase for all major crimes.

 

...

 

To reach this Plain Dealer reporter:

[email protected], 216-999-4845

 

http://www.cleveland.com/news/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/cuyahoga/1130669437141800.xml&coll=2

 

[urbanlife]

Another story on woio last night about how no police were on patrol in all of downtown.  This is at least the 2d time this has happened since August due to combos of equipment failure, vacation and sick leaves.  craziness.

 

Does anyone know when the city is going to put the citistat information on the web?  i know they are using it internally to map/track/respond to crime trends, but originally i think they were going to make it publicly available (maybe not real time) like Baltimore.

[urbanlife]

Here is the video link for the story.

 

Despite recent violent crimes, no cops assigned to patrol downtown

 

http://www.woio.com/global/video/popup/pop_playerLaunch.asp?clipid1=591928&at1=News&vt1=v&h1=Despite+recent+violent+crimes%2C+no+cops+assigned+to+patrol+downtown&d1=99400&redirUrl=www.woio.com&activePane=info&LaunchPageAdTag=homepage

[buildingcincinnati]

I thought this one was kind of interesting:

 

 

NE Ohio task force ranks best in Midwest at nabbing fugitives

Sunday, December 18, 2005

Gabriel Baird

Plain Dealer Reporter

 

The U.S. marshal's Northern Ohio Violent Fugitive Task Force has slapped cuffs on more than 6,000 fugitives since starting in June 2003.

 

No other region in the Midwest has made so many arrests, according to the service's statistics. The arrests include more than 150 sus pected murder ers, rapists and sex criminals.

 

...

 

To reach this Plain Dealer reporter:

[email protected], 216-999-4141

 

http://www.cleveland.com/crime/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/iscri/1134909242225150.xml&coll=2

 

[buildingcincinnati]

From the 2/26/06 PD:

 

 

Deadly streets: City ranks 11th-highest in U.S.

Cleveland homicides may match 2005's

Sunday, February 26, 2006

Joe Guillen

Plain Dealer Reporter

 

Cleveland's homicide rate was among the country's worst in 2005. And so far, this year is shaping up to match last year's bloodshed.

 

With 114 homicides in 2005, Cleveland had the United States' 11th-highest homicide rate among cities with more than 250,000 residents. Cleveland averaged 24.9 homicides per 100,000 people.

 

...

 

To reach this Plain Dealer reporter:

[email protected], 216-999-4675

 

http://www.cleveland.com/news/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/cuyahoga/114094687391050.xml&coll=2

 

[urbanlife]

Here is the accompanying graphic:

 

http://www.cleveland.com/news/wide/deadlydozen.jpg

[bizbiz]

This once again is a mis-notion in the world of statistics. You have to consider a few factors here that the results don't mention:

 

1) Columbus annexed and Cleveland didn't. End result = Columbus is a bigger city but actually still has a smaller metro. The city of Columbus' total population includes what would have been "safer" suburbs. If Cleveland annexed Cleveland Heights for example, this would lower the per capita rate since CH had 0 homicides in 2005 but has a good 40,000 people living within the city.

 

2) There is no mention why almost all cities had a huge spike in homicides between 2004 and 2005. I would mainly attribute that to the fact that most people are over 9/11 and have lost that "united" feeling that was present in much of 2002-2004. Cleveland's homicide rate jumped nearly 50% in 2005. I wouldn't be surprised if being rated the poorest city in the USA gave a lot of the inner-city Clevelanders a "tough" and "thuggish" feeling, just fueling the fire for violence in the city.

 

3) In addition to Cleveland's large change in homicide rate, Akron's own homicide rate jumped 100%. A real simple explanation: you can't base how bad a city is or what the worst city is on a year-to-year basis, but rather on a longer timeframe with additional elements thrown in, such as rape, robbery, arson, etc. In that case, I would then say that Youngstown or Dayton would surpass Cleveland. Basing the deadliest city on the number of homicides in the last year is extremely skewed and not a true representation.

 

However, I do think Cleveland has some dangerous areas is quite deadly. That's not a doubt on my mind..

[ColDayMan]

1) Columbus annexed and Cleveland didn't. End result = Columbus is a bigger city but actually still has a smaller metro. The city of Columbus' total population includes what would have been "safer" suburbs. If Cleveland annexed Cleveland Heights for example, this would lower the per capita rate since CH had 0 homicides in 2005 but has a good 40,000 people living within the city.

 

That is no excuse.  I could potentially find statistics that show what "old city" of Columbus (the 50 whatever square miles) had in terms of crime versus Cleveland city.  Hell, Toledo, a city of what, 80 sq mi, has less crime than Cleveland, per capita, and Cleveland is what, 70 sq mi?  So sorry, I don't buy that "Columbus annexed, so it gets off" BS.

 

3) In addition to Cleveland's large change in homicide rate, Akron's own homicide rate jumped 100%. A real simple explanation: you can't base how bad a city is or what the worst city is on a year-to-year basis, but rather on a longer timeframe with additional elements thrown in, such as rape, robbery, arson, etc. In that case, I would then say that Youngstown or Dayton would surpass Cleveland. Basing the deadliest city on the number of homicides in the last year is extremely skewed and not a true representation.

 

In terms of long-term statistics, I can't see how Dayton (I dunno about Youngstown) would surpass Cleveland in crime, as Cleveland has almost always ranked higher than Dayton in criminal statistics.

[johndoh4]

Hell, Toledo, a city of what, 80 sq mi, has less crime than Cleveland, per capita, and Cleveland is what, 70 sq mi?  So sorry, I don't buy that "Columbus annexed, so it gets off" BS.

 

Cleveland is 78 Sq Mi, and Toledo is 81 Sq Mi. Columbus is....210 Sq Mi :roll:

[KJP]

Hey, homicide rates went up in ALL of Ohio's largest cities.

 

That's nothing to be proud about, anyway you slice it. Shoot, I didn't mean to fire off a bad pun!

[bizbiz]

ColdDayMan,

 

Unless 'per capita' is being used in the right manner, you need to understand that Columbus metro is roughly 1/2 of Cleveland metro. Yet the city of Columbus has a population nearly twice that of the city of Cleveland. So before doing a city contrast, the economic theorist doing the study needs to make sure these two factors are adjusted CORRECTLY into the 'per capita' aspect - many of these studies are garbage reports and are poor representations of the truth. Because being an editorial columnist for a regional newspaper requires controversial writing skills and not the ability to produce a viable economic study, let alone analyze one properly.

[bizbiz]

Cleveland is 78 Sq Mi, and Toledo is 81 Sq Mi. Columbus is....210 Sq Mi :roll:

Hell, Toledo, a city of what, 80 sq mi, has less crime than Cleveland, per capita, and Cleveland is what, 70 sq mi?  So sorry, I don't buy that "Columbus annexed, so it gets off" BS.

 

Cleveland is 78 Sq Mi, and Toledo is 81 Sq Mi. Columbus is....210 Sq Mi :roll:

 

That's why Columbus is the "biggest city" in Ohio. Cleveland's direct metro is 3 million, more if you count Canton. Columbus combined metro is not more than 2 million, probably more like 1.5 unless you count Mansfield an hour north.. I am a realist and I believe that calling Columbus the biggest city in Ohio because of its annex is an incorrect evaluation. To me, "city population" should not draw the line at the edge of a city, but rather continue into the surrounding suburbs and drawn the line on either the edge of the county or the end of urbanized/suburbanized segments - whichever comes first (hence the concept of a metro population).

[bizbiz]

Here is a crime ratio data index chart from 2002 (this includes all crimes, not just homicide):

 

Columbus OH.....................6,233.5   

Toledo OH.........................6,040.9

Dayton-Springfield OH.........4,928.6       

Cincinnati OH-KY-IN............4,541.5

Youngstown-Warren OH.......4,411.8 

Akron OH...........................4,172.0

Cleveland-Lorain-Elyria OH....3,769.5 

 

Point here is that this is a badly compiled report.. don't always take a report or a figure or a number and call it the truth..

[bobo]

bizbiz

 

I havent written any "viable economic studies" but this article is dealing with cities not metro's. If you want to publish an article on metros do it, but it has nothing to do with the study.

 

Secondly you cant penalize Columbus for annexing, I personally think that one of the smartest moves a city could make. Cleveland/Cincy couldve/shouldve done the same.

 

In other words...Dont Hate..

[the pope]

bizbiz,

 

all three of your posts fail to make a point, and could have at least been compounded into one single incoherrent post. Also if you're going to post statistics from an unknown source, that is 4 years old, it would be nice to know at least what 3,769.5 means, or perhaps a methodology?

[ColDayMan]

Hell, Toledo, a city of what, 80 sq mi, has less crime than Cleveland, per capita, and Cleveland is what, 70 sq mi?  So sorry, I don't buy that "Columbus annexed, so it gets off" BS.

 

Cleveland is 78 Sq Mi, and Toledo is 81 Sq Mi. Columbus is....210 Sq Mi :roll:

 

You just proved my point further.  Toledo and Cleveland are roughly the same size yet Cleveland is more dangerous, per capita.  Again, size means nothing.

[ColDayMan]

Here is a crime ratio data index chart from 2002 (this includes all crimes, not just homicide):

 

Columbus OH.....................6,233.5   

Toledo OH.........................6,040.9

Dayton-Springfield OH.........4,928.6       

Cincinnati OH-KY-IN............4,541.5

Youngstown-Warren OH.......4,411.8 

Akron OH...........................4,172.0

Cleveland-Lorain-Elyria OH....3,769.5 

 

Point here is that this is a badly compiled report.. don't always take a report or a figure or a number and call it the truth..

 

A). That's 2002.  This is 2006 and generally look at 2005.

B). So Columbus is Ohio's most "dangerous" metro.  And Cleveland is Ohio's most "dangerous" city.  Whoopdy do.

[bizbiz]

OK moderators - I'm done on this topic, but here's a study taken from the Ohio Department of Development (www.odod.state.oh.us) and the point I am trying to get across is that the annex of Columbus makes a huge difference in regards to the homicide rate within the "city" lines. If you disagree with me, that's good. It's an opinion forum, isn't it? No need for global mod's to help the admins win an argument that has no "correct" answer..  :roll:

 

Correct comparison of Cleveland and Columbus on population rate (taking 8 closest/connecting counties combined for a regional metro population based on 2004 study):

 

1,350,000 - cuyahoga (cleveland)

   550,000 - summit (akron)

   381,000 - stark (canton)

   294,000 - lorain (lorain/elyria)

   232,000 - lake (painesville/mentor)

   165,000 - medina (medina/brunswick)

   154,000 - portage (kent)

     94,000 - geauga (aurora)

___________

3.2 million METRO CLEVELAND (If you add nearby Youngstown and it's 2 counties, that's another 500,000)

 

 

1,060,000 - franklin (columbus)

   145,000 - licking (newark, oh)

   122,000 - fairfield (lancaster)

   110,000 - delaware (delaware)

     54,000 - knox - mt. vernon

     52,000 - pickaway (circleville)

     40,000 - madison (london, oh)

     40,000 - union (marysville)

___________

1.6 million METRO COLUMBUS (If you add the nearby Marion, Morrow, Muskingum, Coshocton, Perry, Hocking, Ross, Fayette, and Ross counties, you'll be lucky to add another 400,000. Anything else is metro Cincinatti.)

[the pope]

bizbiz, you have heard of the us census right?

[ColDayMan]

Cleveland is 78 Sq Mi, and Toledo is 81 Sq Mi. Columbus is....210 Sq Mi :roll:

Hell, Toledo, a city of what, 80 sq mi, has less crime than Cleveland, per capita, and Cleveland is what, 70 sq mi?  So sorry, I don't buy that "Columbus annexed, so it gets off" BS.

 

Cleveland is 78 Sq Mi, and Toledo is 81 Sq Mi. Columbus is....210 Sq Mi :roll:

 

That's why Columbus is the "biggest city" in Ohio. Cleveland's direct metro is 3 million, more if you count Canton. Columbus combined metro is not more than 2 million, probably more like 1.5 unless you count Mansfield an hour north.. I am a realist and I believe that calling Columbus the biggest city in Ohio because of its annex is an incorrect evaluation. To me, "city population" should not draw the line at the edge of a city, but rather continue into the surrounding suburbs and drawn the line on either the edge of the county or the end of urbanized/suburbanized segments - whichever comes first (hence the concept of a metro population).

 

What the hell does that have to do with crime, per capita statistics, or anything else?  Columbus MSA (meaning IMMEDIATE county region) is about 1.6 milion.  Cleveland's MSA with Lorain is about 2.2 million.  You can include Canton, Akron, Youngstown, and Coshocton all you want for 3+ million yet you criticize Columbus for including MARION (not MANSFIELD) and Chillicothe.  Interesting.

[ColDayMan]

Correct comparison of Cleveland and Columbus on population rate (taking 8 closest/connecting counties combined for a regional metro population based on 2004 study):

 

1,350,000 - cuyahoga (cleveland)

   550,000 - summit (akron)

   381,000 - stark (canton)

   294,000 - lorain (lorain/elyria)

   232,000 - lake (painesville/mentor)

   165,000 - medina (medina/brunswick)

   154,000 - portage (kent)

     94,000 - geauga (aurora)

___________

3.2 million METRO CLEVELAND (If you add nearby Youngstown and it's 2 counties, that's another 500,000)

 

 

1,060,000 - franklin (columbus)

   145,000 - licking (newark, oh)

   122,000 - fairfield (lancaster)

   110,000 - delaware (delaware)

     54,000 - knox - mt. vernon

     52,000 - pickaway (circleville)

     40,000 - madison (london, oh)

     40,000 - union (marysville)

___________

1.6 million METRO COLUMBUS (If you add the nearby Marion, Morrow, Muskingum, Coshocton, Perry, Hocking, Ross, Fayette, and Ross counties, you'll be lucky to add another 400,000. Anything else is metro Cincinatti.)

 

A). You're a twit.

B). You're a twit.

C). You're a twit.

D). If you are going to "bitchslap" someone, atleast include it by MSA.  Columbus' MSA is 1.6; Cleveland-Lorain is 2.2 million.  You can include Summit/Portage and Ashtabula to boost Cleveland CSA to 2.9 million.  But you included CANTON, which is NOT part of Cleveland's CSA (though I admit, it should be).  Yet DOWNSIZE Columbus' metro?  Oy vey.

 

Talk about the "penis envy" theory.

[ink]

^I'd put a bunch of that in favorite quotes, but I know it would be deleted.

[ColDayMan]

ColdDayMan,

 

Unless 'per capita' is being used in the right manner, you need to understand that Columbus metro is roughly 1/2 of Cleveland metro. Yet the city of Columbus has a population nearly twice that of the city of Cleveland. So before doing a city contrast, the economic theorist doing the study needs to make sure these two factors are adjusted CORRECTLY into the 'per capita' aspect - many of these studies are garbage reports and are poor representations of the truth. Because being an editorial columnist for a regional newspaper requires controversial writing skills and not the ability to produce a viable economic study, let alone analyze one properly.

 

"Per capita" means "for size."  If Cleveland is more dangerous "per capita" versus Columbus, Dayton, Cincinnati, Akron, Youngstown, and Toledo, then it's the most "dangerous" period.  You are more likely to ____ in Cleveland versus the others, overall.  That isn't to say that "Cleveland sucks and it's ghetto." It means that the chance of something dangerous in Cleveland is HIGHER in 2005 than other cities in Ohio.

 

It isn't that hard to comprehend.  It has NOTHING to do with the "size of Columbus."  That's just foolish talk.

[bizbiz]

You're upset that I was showing stats downsizing the imaginary size of Columbus? Now I'm a twit, a penis envy theorist, and "bitchslap".. so I learned my lesson. Don't argue a point with someone who envies their city so much that they will begin using idiotic terminology..

[ColDayMan]

^I'd put a bunch of that in favorite quotes, but I know it would be deleted.

 

No it wouldn't.  You'd be fine :).

[ColDayMan]

You're pissed that I was critical of Columbus? Now I'm a twit, a penis envy theorist, and "bitchslap".. so I learned my lesson. Don't argue a point with someone who envies their city so much that they will begin using idiotic terminology..

 

"Pot, meet kettle."

 

I called you those things because they don't make logical sense.  I don't care if you are critical on Columbus (or in this case, envious) but if you are going start spouting off lies and false ideologies that don't seem to add up, then a "bitchslap, twit, and penis envy" is going to be thrown out.

[bizbiz]

ColdDayMan,

 

Unless 'per capita' is being used in the right manner, you need to understand that Columbus metro is roughly 1/2 of Cleveland metro. Yet the city of Columbus has a population nearly twice that of the city of Cleveland. So before doing a city contrast, the economic theorist doing the study needs to make sure these two factors are adjusted CORRECTLY into the 'per capita' aspect - many of these studies are garbage reports and are poor representations of the truth. Because being an editorial columnist for a regional newspaper requires controversial writing skills and not the ability to produce a viable economic study, let alone analyze one properly.

 

"Per capita" means "for size."  If Cleveland is more dangerous "per capita" versus Columbus, Dayton, Cincinnati, Akron, Youngstown, and Toledo, then it's the most "dangerous" period.  You are more likely to ____ in Cleveland versus the others, overall.  That isn't to say that "Cleveland sucks and it's ghetto." It means that the chance of something dangerous in Cleveland is HIGHER in 2005 than other cities in Ohio.

 

It isn't that hard to comprehend.  It has NOTHING to do with the "size of Columbus."  That's just foolish talk.

 

Per Capita means PER PERSON not FOR SIZE.....................................

[ColDayMan]

You are actually incorrect and correct.  Per capita does mean "per person" but it also means "for size" meaning "For a city it's size, here is the statistic."

[X]

"1) Columbus annexed and Cleveland didn't. End result = Columbus is a bigger city but actually still has a smaller metro. The city of Columbus' total population includes what would have been "safer" suburbs. If Cleveland annexed Cleveland Heights for example, this would lower the per capita rate since CH had 0 homicides in 2005 but has a good 40,000 people living within the city.

 

That is no excuse.  I could potentially find statistics that show what "old city" of Columbus (the 50 whatever square miles) had in terms of crime versus Cleveland city.  Hell, Toledo, a city of what, 80 sq mi, has less crime than Cleveland, per capita, and Cleveland is what, 70 sq mi?  So sorry, I don't buy that "Columbus annexed, so it gets off" BS."

 

 

I think that the salient point about comparing crime rates of Cleveland (municipality) to Columbus(municipality) is that with Cleveland you are essentially seeing the poorest, most crime ridden neighborhoods carved out of the larger whole (the metropolitan area).  That isn't as much the case with Columbus or even Toledo.  So of course Cleveland (municipality) has the higher homocide rate.  It would really only be fair to compare the entire metro areas.  Or perhaps, as you suggest Colday, get the data for pre-1950's Columbus, if you want to compare just the "inner city" areas.

 

[the pope]

isn't "per capita" used to compare cities of different sizes?

[bizbiz]

1) Columbus annexed and Cleveland didn't. End result = Columbus is a bigger city but actually still has a smaller metro. The city of Columbus' total population includes what would have been "safer" suburbs. If Cleveland annexed Cleveland Heights for example, this would lower the per capita rate since CH had 0 homicides in 2005 but has a good 40,000 people living within the city.

 

That is no excuse.  I could potentially find statistics that show what "old city" of Columbus (the 50 whatever square miles) had in terms of crime versus Cleveland city.  Hell, Toledo, a city of what, 80 sq mi, has less crime than Cleveland, per capita, and Cleveland is what, 70 sq mi?  So sorry, I don't buy that "Columbus annexed, so it gets off" BS.

 

 

I think that the salient point about comparing crime rates of Cleveland (municipality) to Columbus(municipality) is that with Cleveland you are essentially seeing the poorest, most crime ridden neighborhoods carved out of the larger whole (the metropolitan area).  That isn't as much the case with Columbus or even Toledo.  So of course Cleveland (municipality) has the higher homocide rate.  It would really only be fair to compare the entire metro areas.  Or perhaps, as you suggest Colday, get the data for pre-1950's Columbus, if you want to compare just the "inner city" areas.

 

Thank you!

[X]

You are actually incorrect and correct.  Per capita does mean "per person" but it also means "for size" meaning "For a city it's size, here is the statistic."

 

If you're measuring size by persons, than yes.  Otherwise no.

[ColDayMan]

I think that the salient point about comparing crime rates of Cleveland (municipality) to Columbus(municipality) is that with Cleveland you are essentially seeing the poorest, most crime ridden neighborhoods carved out of the larger whole (the metropolitan area).  That isn't as much the case with Columbus or even Toledo.  So of course Cleveland (municipality) has the higher homocide rate.  It would really only be fair to compare the entire metro areas.  Or perhaps, as you suggest Colday, get the data for pre-1950's Columbus, if you want to compare just the "inner city" areas.

 

That is a much more plausable arguement and definately interesting to research. 

 

I would argue, though, that Youngstown and Dayton also could have the same arguement, yet neither are more "dangerous" than Cleveland (but neither are "walks in the park" either).  I'd say that Cincinnati city has perhaps the richest and poorest areas of Metropolitan Cincinnati yet is still Ohio's second most dangerous city, so I can't see how "carving out the most crime ridden" in the metro can be used. 

 

I do agree that metropolitan areas statistics should also be used but we simply cannot ignore the city crime statistics (as Chicagoland may be statistically safer than CityX Metro, Gary is probably more dangerous than any of CityX's suburbs/city).

[johndoh4]

I could see the Cleveland vs. Columbus thing coming from a mile away. Anyways, just for the sake of getting the statistics right (i'm very picky about those kinds of things), I will post the corect metro area populations for Columbus, and Cleveland.

 

Columbus-Marion-Chillicothe Metro Area

 

Population

1,920,601

 

 

Cleveland-Akron-Elyria Metro Area

 

Population

2,942,303

[ColDayMan]

You are actually incorrect and correct.  Per capita does mean "per person" but it also means "for size" meaning "For a city it's size, here is the statistic."

 

If you're measuring size by persons, than yes.  Otherwise no.

 

But you are also comparing city to city, in this case, Columbus to Cleveland.  The population of Columbus' per person in crime is lower than Cleveland's per person.  "For its size," Columbus is less dangerous than Cleveland, "for its size."