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Cleveland: Lakefront Development and News

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6 minutes ago, smimes said:

 

You must have missed the new public STEM school, and the park, and the playground, and the superman statute, and the hotel, and the restaurant.

The hotel is one of the biggest maybes of this whole project along with the STEM school. The residential buildings 4,3,2 seem the most solidified out of the bunch. The most definite buildings are missing interactive elements for the public. You can't just redo these projects especially with how long it took to even get to this point. Developers talk about wanting to create a vibrant neighborhood around Browns stadium and our lakefront but are proposing single use buildings. Props to D I C K Pace for getting to this point when others couldn't but this is a one shot deal, we have to get it right. Having seafood or marine based restaurants along the water akin to Alley Cat in the flats would go a long way to making this a vibrant area.

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3 minutes ago, MyPhoneDead said:

The hotel is one of the biggest maybes of this whole project along with the STEM school. The residential buildings 4,3,2 seem the most solidified out of the bunch. The most definite buildings are missing interactive elements for the public. You can't just redo these projects especially with how long it took to even get to this point. Developers talk about wanting to create a vibrant neighborhood around Browns stadium and our lakefront but are proposing single use buildings. Props to D I C K Pace for getting to this point when others couldn't but this is a one shot deal, we have to get it right. Having seafood or marine based restaurants along the water akin to Alley Cat in the flats would go a long way to making this a vibrant area.

Who says there won’t be these restaurants? If the demand is there, more will come. Also curious to see if there will be restaurants in first floor of residential as an option.

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1 minute ago, MyPhoneDead said:

The hotel is one of the biggest maybes of this whole project along with the STEM school. The residential buildings 4,3,2 seem the most solidified out of the bunch. The most definite buildings are missing interactive elements for the public. You can't just redo these projects especially with how long it took to even get to this point. Developers talk about wanting to create a vibrant neighborhood around Browns stadium and our lakefront but are proposing single use buildings. Props to D I C K Pace for getting to this point when others couldn't but this is a one shot deal, we have to get it right. Having seafood or marine based restaurants along the water akin to Alley Cat in the flats would go a long way to making this a vibrant area.

 

Yeah, being so close to the browns stadium you really should also think about the, "tourists" in mind. It would have been a great spot for a mini Venice board walk/shops/cafes/seafood restaurants, etc.

 

This would have been an ideal place for toutists to linger being so close to the browns stadium..but you have to give them a good reason to linger. 

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The office building is also going to be difficult even if Pace can find a large anchor tenant. It's going to require some hard-to-find subsidies.

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"Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities."-Voltaire

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5 minutes ago, troeros said:

 

Yeah, being so close to the browns stadium you really should also think about the, "tourists" in mind. It would have been a great spot for a mini Venice board walk/shops/cafes/seafood restaurants, etc.

 

This would have been an ideal place for toutists to linger being so close to the browns stadium..but you have to give them a good reason to linger. 

Thank you. That is all I'm saying. Glad for the development, but  if you are going to do it we must get it right. 

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Feels like an awful lot of open space - wide roads, random plazas, fountains, etc.  Seems like it will feel suburban and spread out and not interesting for pedestrians.  Doesn't seem like a nice place to take a stroll...

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7 minutes ago, WindyBuckeye said:

Who says there won’t be these restaurants? If the demand is there, more will come. Also curious to see if there will be restaurants in first floor of residential as an option.

His article doesn't mention restaurants or retail at all for the residential buildings.

Screen Shot 2019-09-20 at 10.42.22 AM.png

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I have confidence in d*ck Pace. He appears to have a good relationship with the city and, while he's cautious and methodical in his approach, unlike some other developers, he does deliver. So far, the development has been impressive.

 

I do miss Captain Frank's though. 

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14 minutes ago, troeros said:

 

Yeah, being so close to the browns stadium you really should also think about the, "tourists" in mind. It would have been a great spot for a mini Venice board walk/shops/cafes/seafood restaurants, etc.

 

This would have been an ideal place for toutists to linger being so close to the browns stadium..but you have to give them a good reason to linger. 

Actually if you zoom in quite a bit on the PDF you can see there are retail liners on the south sides of buildings 1-3. Doesn't appear to be as much as I'd have hoped for at a location like this, and I'd prefer there be some on building 4 since that's being built first, but better than nothing I suppose.

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1 minute ago, Oldmanladyluck said:

@KJP This is probably something for a different/new thread- but what would need to happen for construction prices to come back down?  

 

Either the state passing right-to-work laws or the city of Cleveland rescinding prevailing wage requirements. Neither is going to happen.


"Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities."-Voltaire

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Thank you as always, @KJP! Scrolling through the CPC slideshow for the multimodal hub really quickens my pulse. I absolutely love the cited inspirational elements, especially the “Great Halls”- style trans hubs of other cities, and the Great Lakes Exposition of ‘36-‘37, which conceptually ties the project back to the city’s grand history. Here’s hoping the new lakefront development can trigger a cyclical momentum that results in the land bridge and new trans hub finally seeing fruition in the next 5 years or so! 

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10 minutes ago, MyPhoneDead said:

His article doesn't mention restaurants or retail at all for the residential buildings.

Screen Shot 2019-09-20 at 10.42.22 AM.png

Yeah that’s the proposed but I’m curious if design review and planning will voice an opinion for some retail.

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3 minutes ago, WindyBuckeye said:

Yeah that’s the proposed but I’m curious if design review and planning will voice an opinion for some retail.

That is the hope that I have in my head, similar to what they did with Lumen. Hopefully if they mention the retail aspect needing to be added, Pace takes it more serious than PHS did.

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1 minute ago, WindyBuckeye said:

Yeah that’s the proposed but I’m curious if design review and planning will voice an opinion for some retail.

 

I just don't see this area having much demand for retail. If all of the residential gets built as planned and is 90-percent occupied with average occupancies per unit, we're probably looking at about 950 people living down there. Add to that 1,000 to 1,300 workers for a 90-percent occupied office building and about 200 guests at the hotel. That's a nice little village with a small convenience store which it will need when this area gets cut off from the outside world during Browns games and especially wind-driven winter storms. Add to that a couple of ATMs and perhaps a coffee shop, but what else would it need? Of course it will have the usual lakefront restaurants but those will be on life-support during winter, just as Nuevo is on the other side of the harbor.

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"Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities."-Voltaire

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I agree that adding another restaurant, bar, and maybe a coffeshop would be ideal. But, this isn't a bad development. It's a great development. Not every neighborhood needs retail. It adds 545 apartments and 85 townhouses to the lakefront. At 1.5 people per residence that's an additional 945 people living downtown on the lakefront on approximately 16 acres. This is an excellent amount of density. It also has a mix of uses including residential, commercial and a hotel.The hotel is planning on having a restaurant and, with the pedestrian bridge, it's only steps away from Nuevo. And to echo KJP, waterfront restaurants/bars, including the flats, are almost empty in the winter. People just don't get out to these places as much when it's cold. 

 

Having a quaint little neighborhood on the water can itself be an attraction. I'm thinking like how people walk around Beacon Hill in Boston. Additionally, this development will be the first thing people from the cruise ships see when they get off, rather than an abandoned sea of parking. 

 

 

Edited by smimes
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4 minutes ago, KJP said:

 

I just don't see this area having much demand for retail. If all of the residential gets built as planned and is 90-percent occupied with average occupancies per unit, we're probably looking at about 950 people living down there. Add to that 1,000 to 1,300 workers for a 90-percent occupied office building and about 200 guests at the hotel. That's a nice little village with a small convenience store which it will need when this area gets cut off from the outside world during Browns games and especially wind-driven winter storms. Add to that a couple of ATMs and perhaps a coffee shop, but what else would it need? Of course it will have the usual lakefront restaurants but those will be on life-support during winter, just as Nuevo is on the other side of the harbor.

 

I wonder if that many people will really want to live there with most amenities of downtown being a decent walk away (e.g. Heinen's and East Fourth would both be over a mile and Public square would be just under).  I know if I was in the area and able to live downtown I would easily choose a place on Euclid over a place in that development.  But who knows maybe for some just being on the lake and having some basic amenities is enough.  That playground may also be a bigger draw than I'm thinking as well.

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13 hours ago, infrafreak said:

While the Cleveland Foundation Centennial Lake Link Trail will connect to the Whiskey Island Connector via the Willow St Bridge over the Old River, am I correct in understanding there is no plan for a pedestrian bridge parallel with Norfolk Southern's lift bridge at the mouth of the Cuyahoga?  As much as the land bridge will connect people to d*ck Pace's development, and the multi-modal transportation center will be transformative (love it!), the pedestrian bridge crossing from Voinovich Bicentennial Park across North Coast harbor is much less impactful than if one could walk/run/bike from E 9th to Whiskey Island/Edgewater without routing through the flats. Being a busy commercial port and shipping channel with lake freighters/ore ships/cruise ships, etc using our navigable river, I understand the inherent limitations of blocking/constraining the mouth of the river, but what would a pedestrian bridge look like there (in terms of grading/approach/length/cost/funding/etc)?

I feel that the best option would be to start to combine river and lakefront amenities with a true water transportation network like Chicago:

https://shorelinesightseeing.com/about/maps-routes/

 

Cleveland docks should be: 1) Edgewater Park 2) Wendy Park 3) West Bank Flats 4) East Bank of the Flats 5) Merwins Wharf 6) New Pace development Dock or E9th Pier 7) East 55th St Marine & Pier 8) Gordon Park / MLK. My family would be able to spend a whole day out and about day tripping afte riding the Green Line in from Shaker Heights.

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11 minutes ago, trej34 said:

I feel that the best option would be to start to combine river and lakefront amenities with a true water transportation network like Chicago:

https://shorelinesightseeing.com/about/maps-routes/

 

Cleveland docks should be: 1) Edgewater Park 2) Wendy Park 3) West Bank Flats 4) East Bank of the Flats 5) Merwins Wharf 6) New Pace development Dock or E9th Pier 7) East 55th St Marine & Pier 😎 Gordon Park / MLK. My family would be able to spend a whole day out and about day tripping afte riding the Green Line in from Shaker Heights.

Fully agree!  Love this idea!!

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I see this development dominated by professional athletes and snow birds.  So probably even deader in the winter as maybe half the units will be actively occupied. 

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Overall I like this plan. I think the Superman Statue is a great idea, I think it will become a tourist destination kind of like "The Bean" is in Chicago(plus when you add the stainless steal globe from SHW on public square, if done right these could be must see sites for tourist in CLE - plus you have the chandelier in PHS - exciting!). 


I do have a few concerns when looking long term.  When we finally do away with Burke and develop the property, would someone be able to walk/bike from MLK to Edgewater on the water through this development?  Also, it would be nice to have some tiny shops/restaurants along the 1st FL of the buildings for pedestrians walking along the water, kind of like San Diego and other places - I know it wont be nice weather year round, but with the neighborhood developed there they should be fine.... and it would help those living/working near by not have to travel across downtown for amenities.

Also, I agree with @troeros in that I would like to see a Venice Boardwalk, Navy Pier style site on the water near that location.  I don't think it has to be in this location, but maybe for phase 2 it could be on one of the dock locations to the west of the Browns stadium in-between it and the river entrance. I think it would be a huge boost for the city and our lakefront.  then you would have a very active and vibrant lakefront with a lot of options.   Non-stop action from Voinovich Park, to the Rock Hall and Science Center,  to the Pace Community with a park and Superman Statue and nice waterfront walkway, to the Cleveland style Navy Pier and then the entrance to the river with all of its options! 

If done correctly, this could be Huge!!!!

Edited by NR
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1 hour ago, RMB said:

Feels like an awful lot of open space - wide roads, random plazas, fountains, etc.  Seems like it will feel suburban and spread out and not interesting for pedestrians.  Doesn't seem like a nice place to take a stroll...

 

Over in the Burke Lakefront Airport thread, I have expressed these same concerns should we close the airport and give to a developer.  450 acres = suburban gated community. 

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3 minutes ago, Cleburger said:

 

Over in the Burke Lakefront Airport thread, I have expressed these same concerns should we close the airport and give to a developer.  450 acres = suburban gated community. 

Crocker Central! 😛 

 

Love, love, love the idea of a water taxi. With consistent service, it could really be something!

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What I really liked about the original plan was the marina. I imagine people who want to live on the water would love to have their boat there too. 

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While it's not likely to become some retail mecca, retail amenities like this are essential. Think gift shop, informational, coffee & tea, bathrooms, etc. But there should be seasonal vendors all along that public "boardwalk." 

 

San Diego Info Center

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The benefit of living in the city vs the suburbs is the convenience and ability to walk to things. So on the retail front, there MUST be a few bars, some restaurants---both nice ones and things like Chipotle or quick inexpensive places, dry cleaner, a CVS or Walgreens--at the very least. You need these to have a neighborhood.     And of course, though these benefit the residents, they will also be supported by people visiting the area.  

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IMHO, this project resembles an "urban" suburban community development. It has all of the characteristics of a suburban development (Any of the new high-end, family-oriented suburban community developments), but within throwing distance of downtown.

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Sketchup Renderings with Updated Massing and Possible Land Bridge (9/10/19):

*Note: All renderings are unofficial and are meant for speculation purposes until official versions are released.

 

image.thumb.png.67833a8e765e902cf29de1f8dc09880b.png

 

image.thumb.png.027bc27016d491ee9c64a760928453f8.png

 

image.thumb.png.0c20b7a2528c63fc7e99654f33aaec2b.png

 

image.thumb.png.2f7050afea4ed3f5213806131d74e63c.png

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Winter doesn't have to be dead. I'm a huge fan of what Detroit did downtown creating a winter market with cozy indoor spaces, and an outdoor fire warmed plaza and beer garden.

https://detroit.curbed.com/platform/amp/2017/11/17/16670110/downtown-detroit-markets-holiday-photos

Throw in some kinda landscaping or building design to shield it from the winds and this could be a winter destination helping to keep alive whatever other restaurants/retail are there.

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Yes there are some suburban characteristics in this development, but that doesn’t bother me at all, not even a little bit. I said this elsewhere, but the culture of the area has a very suburban bent to it. Most of us hate that, but it is what it is. So I am not opposed to a few neighborhoods here and there in the city having suburban characteristics to attract...suburbanites lol. This is literally a neighborhood being built from scratch. This isn’t a historic neighborhood with clearly defined characteristics. My philosophy generally is that you should be able to live in any style that you want somewhere in the city. This place is big enough that every neighborhood doesn’t have to look alike. I’m cool with it

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7 hours ago, cle_guy90 said:

 

I wonder if that many people will really want to live there with most amenities of downtown being a decent walk away (e.g. Heinen's and East Fourth would both be over a mile and Public square would be just under).  I know if I was in the area and able to live downtown I would easily choose a place on Euclid over a place in that development.  But who knows maybe for some just being on the lake and having some basic amenities is enough.  That playground may also be a bigger draw than I'm thinking as well.

 

 

I think the buffer from downtown may make it more appealing to families. You can still be downtown in a dense neighborhood, but separated from the more active areas. There won't be as much vehicle traffic (aside from game days), potentially a school, and the closest proximity to usable green-space (future playground site perhaps) in downtown.  You're also really close to the Shoreway if you need more family oriented amenities/services 10 minutes away in Lakewood. There are also presumably many empty empty-nesters who have never lived in a city that would also like these qualities.

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It really does provide more of a suburban environment, right in the heart of the city. It'll be great for those who want easy access to the city's amenities without all of the challenges/issues that come with it.

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9 hours ago, trej34 said:

I feel that the best option would be to start to combine river and lakefront amenities with a true water transportation network like Chicago:

https://shorelinesightseeing.com/about/maps-routes/

 

Cleveland docks should be: 1) Edgewater Park 2) Wendy Park 3) West Bank Flats 4) East Bank of the Flats 5) Merwins Wharf 6) New Pace development Dock or E9th Pier 7) East 55th St Marine & Pier 8) Gordon Park / MLK. My family would be able to spend a whole day out and about day tripping afte riding the Green Line in from Shaker Heights.

 

For some reason this solution escaped me - I thought of the water taxi as it exists today and how it underserves its potential. Leveraging the waterway really opens up much more potential than a fixed connection between one side of the river versus another. Having multiple maritime connections is especially great (Gordon park really escapes people, particularly with the highway bisecting it)! I love the Chicago comparison for the potential this has. Frequency and seasonality are the main concerns I would have, along with being well-promoted and known between locals and tourists alike, not to mention those pouring into E-9th/Voinovich park to see the RRHOF with little other idea of what to expect...

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15 hours ago, gpodawund said:

Actually if you zoom in quite a bit on the PDF you can see there are retail liners on the south sides of buildings 1-3. Doesn't appear to be as much as I'd have hoped for at a location like this, and I'd prefer there be some on building 4 since that's being built first, but better than nothing I suppose.

And there will also be retail in the parking podium bases of both the office and hotel buildings too.

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6 hours ago, Larry1962 said:

And there will also be retail in the parking podium bases of both the office and hotel buildings too.

You missed the conversation about that portion I see.

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1 hour ago, ydard said:

I suspect it will be a miniature Battery Park (NYC).

It does have some of the same characteristics as Battery Park; a somewhat secluded, urban, waterfront oasis, built in a park-like setting, with relatively easy access to the rest of the city.

 

Another similarity to NYC.

Edited by Frmr CLEder
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I posted this article link in the Hilton hotel development thread, but I am posing this question here in the lakefront thread...

 

Can any of this money (is it $30 million or $70 million? ) be used to help build an expansion of the convention center, a second hotel or maybe the land bridge over the lakefront tracks and Shoreway?

 

Downtown Hilton comes in way under budget

https://www.crainscleveland.com/government/downtown-hilton-comes-way-under-budget?ite=102890&ito=1153&itq=7a07e556-42f0-4a0c-9d97-73d63b59c700&itx[idio]=7208206

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"Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities."-Voltaire

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1 hour ago, KJP said:

I posted this article link in the Hilton hotel development thread, but I am posing this question here in the lakefront thread...

 

Can any of this money (is it $30 million or $70 million? ) be used to help build an expansion of the convention center, a second hotel or maybe the land bridge over the lakefront tracks and Shoreway?

 

Downtown Hilton comes in way under budget

https://www.crainscleveland.com/government/downtown-hilton-comes-way-under-budget?ite=102890&ito=1153&itq=7a07e556-42f0-4a0c-9d97-73d63b59c700&itx[idio]=7208206

 

If it is possible, let's put Mr. Applebaum in charge of that project, too.

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