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Cleveland: Lakefront Development and News

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6 hours ago, MyTwoSense said:

Doesn't remind me of that area in any form.  This is from someone who knows what that area looked like 25 years ago.

 

Exactly my point. What DC’s Navy Yard looked like 25 years ago to what it looks like today is....a different universe. If Pace can replicate that north of the stadium, which shares a lot of qualities but on a smaller scale, then he might have something going. Based on the most recent massings, I’ve gone from pessimistic about this project to cautiously optimistic. 

Edited by brtshrcegr

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1 hour ago, marty15 said:

Seriously, how hard would it be to construct a spur off of the Waterfront line north of the flats? Wind it through this development, past the new hotel, run it through the front plazas of the GLSC and Rock Hall, but all in conjunction of the downtown loop. Would be amazing.

 

A year ago I doodled this exact flight of fancy in Google Maps:

 

https://drive.google.com/open?id=18QR-fGrfxMbf37Vayvx4visn7Ou9d-9n&usp=sharing

 

Unsure how to get it back across the Shoreway, but at this point who cares, the WFL has no ridership anyway and there's nothing going on in regards to development on Muni Lots or creating a loop.  At this would be a destination.

wfl.JPG

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6 hours ago, simplythis said:

Do these residences come with parking? where are these 1000

units going to park?

 

In the new Thunderbird apartment complex parking lots?

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Interesting to read the thoughts of so many relatively new members on the board concerning the lakefront,  Very deja vu.  Now if only something would get done before you find me playing bridge with Mike White and Jane Campbell in our nursing home.

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9 hours ago, simplythis said:

Do these residences come with parking? where are these 1000

units going to park?

The last thing needed in more parking.  There is public transportation right there.

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11 hours ago, PittsburgoDelendaEst said:

.

wfl.JPG

 

One thing I’ve been thinking about (and this picture helps to illustrate) - how high will this land bridge need to be to clear the Shoreway as it exists now? I liked Ken’s plan for converting it into a boulevard; I just think that’s unlikely for political reasons. If the land bridge is really high to clear the Shoreway, will it also go over Lerner way? How much slope will it need to get back down to ground level? I’m really looking forward to seeing new renderings from whoever is driving this project. 

 

Also, I do like your Waterfront spur drawing. And it should continue on, ramp up, and then south to East 17 and continuing on for a proper full loop. 

Edited by Boomerang_Brian
Typo
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12 hours ago, simplythis said:

Do these residences come with parking? where are these 1000

units going to park?

1,000 Units! So that would equate to about 2,000 more to downtown population? This isn't NYC. Parking is a must if they expect it to fill.

Edited by Mildtraumatic

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3 hours ago, MyTwoSense said:

The last thing needed in more parking.  There is public transportation right there.

 

I wholeheartedly agree that parking is the worst utilization of space period. But, anyone who would be able to afford these is used to traveling by car. Potential residents expect parking otherwise they'll pass. The waterfront line comes maybe every 30 min? And then, where to? We have to face the fact that Cleveland is not New York City. RTA is drastically underfunded and thus traveling thereby is extremely limited. My wife and I live and work downtown, but unfortunately we still need one car between the two of us for certain errands/trips. For example, to take the dogs to the vet, to go grocery shopping where it isn't outrageously priced, and to get to our parents' houses in the suburbs. 

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6 minutes ago, smimes said:

 

I wholeheartedly agree that parking is the worst utilization of space period. But, anyone who would be able to afford these is used to traveling by car. Potential residents expect parking otherwise they'll pass. The waterfront line comes maybe every 30 min? And then, where to? We have to face the fact that Cleveland is not New York City. RTA is drastically underfunded and thus traveling thereby is extremely limited. My wife and I live and work downtown, but unfortunately we still need one car between the two of us for certain errands/trips. For example, to take the dogs to the vet, to go grocery shopping where it isn't outrageously priced, and to get to our parents' houses in the suburbs. 

I agree. I do not think you will find 1000 high end apartment dwellers without a car. This is not NYC. EVERY family has at least 1 car.

Sorry for this dense urban mentality but it will not fill without a place to park the car.

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3 hours ago, MyTwoSense said:

The last thing needed in more parking.  There is public transportation right there.

Then good luck getting people there. The bottom line is the people who can afford to live in this development, the vast majority of them are going to be auto centric. We have to be realistic about the nature of the population where we live

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Not would only Cleveland rail have to improve and expand beyond city limits but also the state of Ohio and the Midwest would have to get closer to East Coast standards. Still mad at Kasich for refusing 3-C rail money the feds were giving out. I think we I know this is the sad reality as of right now and don't see it changing anytime soon. 

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21 hours ago, GISguy said:

Pretty sure .25 miles is the top limit for most american's to be cool with walking (🙄), I'm on my work computer or I'd google the study. Sounds like this would be in the sweetspot...minus the winter breeze off the lake - maybe the developers could have a shuttle of some sort or a MPLS tube system going on haha.

so we want a walkable neighborhood but  .25 mile is to far to walk to a train stop...???

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1 hour ago, Boomerang_Brian said:

 

One thing I’ve been thinking about (and this picture helps to illustrate) - how high will this land bridge need to be to clear the Shoreway as it exists now? I liked Ken’s plan for converting it into a boulevard; I just think that’s unlikely for political reasons. If the land bridge is really high to clear the Shoreway, will it also go over Lerner way? How much slope will it need to get back down to ground level? I’m really looking forward to seeing new renderings from whoever is driving this project. 

Some info here:

 

https://www.greenribbonlakefront.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/Land-Bridge-Proposal_GRC_2019-01-10_4.9.pdf

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2 hours ago, inlovewithCLE said:

Then good luck getting people there. The bottom line is the people who can afford to live in this development, the vast majority of them are going to be auto centric. We have to be realistic about the nature of the population where we live

Just because you think they are now, that does not equate to how they will use public transportation in the future.  Someone moving to this area, may very well move so they can reduce car usage, eliminate the number of vehicles they own or lease or go car free.

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29 minutes ago, lockdog said:

I think it would be an asset if we could get the superman museum and a browns HOF in the cumberland development....

It should be in the neighborhood.  Not downtown.  Not everything needs to be downtown.

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2 hours ago, smimes said:

 

I wholeheartedly agree that parking is the worst utilization of space period. But, anyone who would be able to afford these is used to traveling by car. Potential residents expect parking otherwise they'll pass. The waterfront line comes maybe every 30 min? And then, where to? We have to face the fact that Cleveland is not New York City. RTA is drastically underfunded and thus traveling thereby is extremely limited. My wife and I live and work downtown, but unfortunately we still need one car between the two of us for certain errands/trips. For example, to take the dogs to the vet, to go grocery shopping where it isn't outrageously priced, and to get to our parents' houses in the suburbs. 

what makes you think the waterfront line, a major selling point, will not be adjusted for more residential traffic?  

Not one person is comparing Cleveland to NYC.

On the east and west sides of this developments are walk

 

With more residents, thinks like pet groomers, veterinarians, pet stores, pediatricians, hardware stores, etc.  The grocery store, you state is "outrageous", is at that price because those in the area can afford to pay prices asked. 

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42 minutes ago, MyTwoSense said:

It should be in the neighborhood.  Not downtown.  Not everything needs to be downtown.

if siegel's home (I assume this is the neighborhood you're speaking of) could be combined with a museum and generate the traffic one would want....  I would agree with you....   

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4 minutes ago, lockdog said:

if siegel's home (I assume this is the neighborhood you're speaking of) could be combined with a museum and generate the traffic one would want....  I would agree with you....   

Exactly.  It's a catalyst for that neighborhood.  The same as the "A Christmas Story" house is for Tremont.

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4 hours ago, surfohio said:

 

Thanks!

 

For those of you who, like me, had forgotten what the most recent renderings look like, here you go. And the answer to my question is that the land bridge would jog to the East to go over the Shoreway and Lerner Way where they are at lower relative elevation. 

 

FAE90BF3-355C-428F-8112-859A96BDBA58.thumb.jpeg.ea4c41181a668bff3bef44bc906af1fd.jpeg

 

And if the the mall is extended through the new dev to the lake:

 

4D3B06F1-1EA0-41EB-82D5-1C7AFB3294D5.thumb.jpeg.225e650ef3139c15ae8f8139bd080eb4.jpeg

 

 

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17 hours ago, Boomerang_Brian said:

 

Thanks!

 

For those of you who, like me, had forgotten what the most recent renderings look like, here you go. And the answer to my question is that the land bridge would jog to the East to go over the Shoreway and Lerner Way where they are at lower relative elevation. 

 

FAE90BF3-355C-428F-8112-859A96BDBA58.thumb.jpeg.ea4c41181a668bff3bef44bc906af1fd.jpeg

 

And if the the mall is extended through the new dev to the lake:

 

4D3B06F1-1EA0-41EB-82D5-1C7AFB3294D5.thumb.jpeg.225e650ef3139c15ae8f8139bd080eb4.jpeg

 

 

Any plans on shoring up the old pedestrian bridge on the left to the stadium, or do they plan on knocking it down? its ugly as hell as it stands right now. Also, what's the latest word on the giant superman statue?

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I like the balloons. Certainly good for the air traffic at BKL.  Re the Waterfront Line, yes, service may increase if this all this happens, but still where will people go? Other than Hopkins Airport, Little Italy, W. 25 St, the Terminal Tower (which can be walked to from here) and Shaker Sq, the rail system and the development around them as destinations is limited. If they can afford the rents/mortgage at the Lakefront, they're not jumping on a bus. We need more investments in rail.

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1 minute ago, Pugu said:

I like the balloons. Certainly good for the air traffic at BKL.  Re the Waterfront Line, yes, service may increase if this all this happens, but still where will people go? Other than Hopkins Airport, Little Italy, W. 25 St, the Terminal Tower (which can be walked to from here) and Shaker Sq, the rail system and the development around them as destinations is limited. If they can afford the rents/mortgage at the Lakefront, they're not jumping on a bus. We need more investments in rail.

You may not be giving people enough credit.  Hell, I'm rich and I take the bus. 48, 10, 3 and the 81.  Hell I've even taken the 2 from the westside, but I wont do that again.

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^I hope you're right!  But the bus has to be frequent enough. The last time I tried to take the bus, it was crazy. I took the Red Line from the Terminal Tower to West Blvd then tried to connect to a Detroit Ave bus into Lakewood. I waited and waited and then WALKED to Lakewood. I finally saw the first bus when I was already a few blocks in. And this was a weekday, 6pm. Never again. I guess one hope for the rail system is, now, I could have taken the train to West Blvd, then jumped into a Lyft or Uber---those companies weren't around then, or if they were, were not widely used.

 

PS--that's great, though, that you take the bus even when you (likely) have options. Hope there are more out there like you than me!

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Does anyone know if Cities with rail systems collaborate with Uber and Lyft and offer a discount or bundle deal for riding both and basically using Lyft or Uber as a connector? 

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2 hours ago, Pugu said:

^I hope you're right!  But the bus has to be frequent enough. The last time I tried to take the bus, it was crazy. I took the Red Line from the Terminal Tower to West Blvd then tried to connect to a Detroit Ave bus into Lakewood. I waited and waited and then WALKED to Lakewood. I finally saw the first bus when I was already a few blocks in. And this was a weekday, 6pm. Never again. I guess one hope for the rail system is, now, I could have taken the train to West Blvd, then jumped into a Lyft or Uber---those companies weren't around then, or if they were, were not widely used.

 

PS--that's great, though, that you take the bus even when you (likely) have options. Hope there are more out there like you than me!

 

The 26-Detroit is a very unreliable bus route. I waited a few minutes for it after taking the Red Line home from the All-star game, but decided to instead take the 66R bus to West 117th and catch the 78 to the Gold Coast. Worked much better.

 

 As much as I would like to see the Waterfront  Line extended as a downtown loop around the East Side of the CBD, there's also a part of me that would like to see the Waterfront  Lin extended North East along the Shoreway and the tracks (which are used more by Amtrak than by freight trains) as part of a focused effort to incentivize high-rise housing between downtown and Bratenahl.

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"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!" -- Lady Liberty

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5 hours ago, KJP said:

 

The 26-Detroit is a very unreliable bus route. I waited a few minutes for it after taking the Red Line home from the All-star game, but decided to instead take the 66R bus to West 117th and catch the 78 to the Gold Coast. Worked much better.

 

 As much as I would like to see the Waterfront  Line extended as a downtown loop around the East Side of the CBD, there's also a part of me that would like to see the Waterfront  Lin extended North East along the Shoreway and the tracks (which are used more by Amtrak than by freight trains) as part of a focused effort to incentivize high-rise housing between downtown and Bratenahl.

In an ideal world, I'd love for the waterfront to complete the loop and for a separate line to go along those tracks. Have it start in Lakewood near the Gold Coast and follow the tracks east, diverge to stop at tower city, then continue along the waterfront line tracks, but branch off and keep heading east along the shoreway all the way to MLK. It would definitely support development and park usage from Edgewater Beach to the downtown lakefront to Gordon Park. Maybe throw in a mostly direct bus along MLK from the Gordon Park location down to the Cedar University station to tie it all together with the red line and University Circle.

In an ideal world...

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5 hours ago, KJP said:

 

The 26-Detroit is a very unreliable bus route. I waited a few minutes for it after taking the Red Line home from the All-star game, but decided to instead take the 66R bus to West 117th and catch the 78 to the Gold Coast. Worked much better.

 

 As much as I would like to see the Waterfront  Line extended as a downtown loop around the East Side of the CBD, there's also a part of me that would like to see the Waterfront  Lin extended North East along the Shoreway and the tracks (which are used more by Amtrak than by freight trains) as part of a focused effort to incentivize high-rise housing between downtown and Bratenahl.

I would like to see rail under Detroit via the bridge.  Create a transfer/connection station at 98 street and have the line run as a light rail on Clifton.  At the same time, extend the light rail east to at least 55 street.  also, reintroduce express service from TC to Shaker Square.

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1 hour ago, West153 said:

Looks like a nice crowd!  So much potential down there.

 

Credit to Aerial Agents for the photos below:  https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=2861555197249911&id=616358491769604&sfnsn=mo

 

FB_IMG_1563190212414.jpg

 

 

Agreed lots of potential. Plus, I think the new Lakefront plans might actually allow for Tall Ships to still be feasible should they come back in the future. From what it appears, there would still enough green space to put up the tents (as I drew in below, probably not to scale) and lakefront walking paths to line the ships up along (the ships probably aren't to scale either). I'm curious how this new development would affect Tall Ships in the future...

 

1859448199_TallShips.thumb.PNG.fbd022321577c564bbb11238f0d30251.PNG

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6 hours ago, Terdolph said:

Man, living there on those docks in winter would be brutal.

 

Wouldn’t be much worse than the rest of downtown. I went to CSU undergrad + grad and lived on Euclid near E 4 most of it. The wind tunnels can get seriously crazy in really low temps. 

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7 hours ago, Terdolph said:

Man, living there on those docks in winter would be brutal.

Ever been to Toronto?

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