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Cleveland: Lakefront Development and News

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2 hours ago, marty15 said:

We’ll all be expecting a full Neo-trans expose shortly 😉    Don’t recall Dock 30 being in the conversation before. 

 

I'll see if I can squeeze it in between the two big irons I've got in the fire right now. I'm still waiting for the green light on the condo article but I'll definitely have a big article coming up this Friday.

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"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!" -- Lady Liberty

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15 hours ago, PoshSteve said:

Cleveland needs to start advertising coastal living without the threat of sea level rise.

or shark attacks!

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15 hours ago, MayDay said:

 

Tell Niagara Falls to turn the spigot on FULL! 🙂

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"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!" -- Lady Liberty

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Was on Ontario this past weekend. They're in the same boat with the flooding. Second year in a row for them actually. 

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I think this has been asked a couple of times on the forum recently but never answered:   Did Cumberland lose it's option since it did not break ground on anything in June?

Edited by Htsguy
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Let's Be Clear: Developer Richard Pace to share new plans for Cleveland's lakefront

See what plans are in store for Cleveland

https://www.wkyc.com/mobile/article/news/local/cleveland/lets-be-clear-developer-richard-pace-to-share-new-plans-for-clevelands-lakefront/95-a0f1ed6f-70da-4ac5-b45a-f704c0df46fd

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"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!" -- Lady Liberty

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45 minutes ago, KJP said:

Let's Be Clear: Developer Richard Pace to share new plans for Cleveland's lakefront

See what plans are in store for Cleveland

https://www.wkyc.com/mobile/article/news/local/cleveland/lets-be-clear-developer-richard-pace-to-share-new-plans-for-clevelands-lakefront/95-a0f1ed6f-70da-4ac5-b45a-f704c0df46fd

Guessing this has to do with the prints I saw.

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Major Points from Dick Pace currently on on Let’s Be Clear:

 

Light Gray (South) New School on the Lakefront to capture younger generation of downtown families to fill in the educational offerings gap downtown

Light Gray (North) - Conversion of one of the warehouses (Dock 39, center of plan below) currently onsite into collaborative, open office space beginning relatively soon

Brown/Orange - 1,000 Lakefront Apartments

Dark Gray (East) - (Possible) Hotel with connection to GLSC (Unclear due to image quality)

Not Pictured - Supposed extension of Mall A B C towards the lakefront (land bridge?)

Unclear - 50,000 sq ft. of Retail

 

Information Courtesy of WKYC News

 

Edited by Geowizical
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This looks feasible, something they can actually start building soon.  Looks like they aren't holding out for a big corporate tenant.  Any info on whether funding is lined up?

Edited by ryanfrazier

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15 minutes ago, ryanfrazier said:

This looks feasible, something they can actually start building soon.  Looks like they aren't holding out for a big corporate tenant.  Any info on whether funding is lined up?

Very feasible indeed. Pace said himself that these new plans were much more feasible than what they had previously drew up and that they would be able to move forward more quickly with the new changes (obviously these are still proposals and not final). From what I understood from the live stream (before it cut out and didn't return...) was that, like you said, they aren't holding out for an office tenant and rather just creating the space for future use. Funding wise however, I didn't hear anything about it...

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meh, seems like a waste of one of the best pieces of property out there. If you want to attract people from the Rock Hall/Science Center/Stadium, I'd think the North Shore of Pittsburgh would be a good standard to follow, not this spread out corporate campus type look. Disappointing. 

 

PS- why's WKYC got to be all clickbaitey? It's not a crazy exclusive sneak peek when it's literally two renderings (and carrying the press conference I guess? just annoying). 

Edited by GISguy
Hangry rant

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1 hour ago, jbee1982 said:

I wish they would relocate the stadium and instead, but a nice central park in the middle with surrounding live/work buildings

 

A new stadium would cost at least $500M, and perhaps much more. I can think of at least 10 better investments of that kind of public money in downtown alone.  For that matter, you would be able to get multiple major projects completed from that list for that kind of money. 

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1 hour ago, jbee1982 said:

I wish they would relocate the stadium and instead, but a nice central park in the middle with surrounding live/work buildings

 

12 minutes ago, Boomerang_Brian said:

 

A new stadium would cost at least $500M, and perhaps much more. I can think of at least 10 better investments of that kind of public money in downtown alone.  For that matter, you would be able to get multiple major projects completed from that list for that kind of money. 

 

And to clarify, I fully agree that they should have put that stadium elsewhere - probably right by gateway on one side or the other of the new inner belt bridges - but what’s done is done. 

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6 minutes ago, surfohio said:

Are these all low-rise buildings being proposed? 

 

I think so, especially since the buildings in the older renderings were all low-rise as well.

 

And since we only got two images of the new master plan and this is kind of important...

For the second addition to my series of Unofficial Google Sketchup Renderings (see nuCLEus thread for the first), I took the master plan image and made a best-guess mock-up of what I think the future Lakefront would roughly look like in 3D to give us all a better idea of what's what...

1840508698_Lakefront2.thumb.PNG.ee9622ca66c2ce38bc79d279d6048895.PNG465628533_LakefrontFull.thumb.PNG.cc9b7f81ca15d5125deae21006f6a741.PNG

And the Money Shot...

Lakefront.thumb.PNG.d290bc301c102c056b06440c623ffe6f.PNG

(I only take credit for creating the models in yellow which are future/proposed buildings)

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1 hour ago, surfohio said:

Are these all low-rise buildings being proposed? 

 

After seeing the 3D renderings above, I don’t mind that these are all lower rise buildings. It adds a good bit of density. I know we’ve discussed it here before as well, but if I recall correctly, there are height restrictions around here as well due to the airport. 

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2 minutes ago, ryanfrazier said:

@Geowizical did you make that today, since the livestream?  I don't know Sketchup but that seems super quick.  And helpful!

Thanks! I do have lots of experience with Sketchup so it did go fairly quickly, but yes, I threw it together once the images came out after the livestream. All I did was outline the buildings from the image and then extrude upwards (since there were no good 3D renderings to go off of) so that helped make it go quicker.

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4 minutes ago, jeremyck01 said:

 

After seeing the 3D renderings above, I don’t mind that these are all lower rise buildings. It adds a good bit of density. I know we’ve discussed it here before as well, but if I recall correctly, there are height restrictions around here as well due to the airport. 

 

That's my view as well.  It would be great to see people living in that area, paired with some things common in actual communities (like schools, stores, placed to work, etc.) and this does a lot of those things in a potentially deliverable package.  Keeping the buildings low-rise makes construction much cheaper.

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1 hour ago, Geowizical said:

 

I think so, especially since the buildings in the older renderings were all low-rise as well.

 

And since we only got two images of the new master plan and this is kind of important...

For the second addition to my series of Unofficial Google Sketchup Renderings (see nuCLEus thread for the first), I took the master plan image and made a best-guess mock-up of what I think the future Lakefront would roughly look like in 3D to give us all a better idea of what's what...

1840508698_Lakefront2.thumb.PNG.ee9622ca66c2ce38bc79d279d6048895.PNG465628533_LakefrontFull.thumb.PNG.cc9b7f81ca15d5125deae21006f6a741.PNG

And the Money Shot...

Lakefront.thumb.PNG.d290bc301c102c056b06440c623ffe6f.PNG

(I only take credit for creating the models in yellow which are future/proposed buildings)

^Awesome job! Is it just me or does the linear green space in the above renderings appear to line up almost perfectly with the malls? I can picture the Land Bridge project descending several levels to meet up with Pace’s green space in this project.

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14 minutes ago, CleCaneFan said:

^Awesome job! Is it just me or does the linear green space in the above renderings appear to line up almost perfectly with the malls? I can picture the Land Bridge project descending several levels to meet up with Pace’s green space in this project.

Thanks! That's what I noticed too, the malls do line up almost perfectly! And I think when Pace referenced "connecting the mall" in the livestream, maybe he was hinting at doing just this... expanding the mall down and connecting it to this vertical strip of green space. If so, I think something like this would literally be perfect. 

image.thumb.png.bb18ab54cab921f1e4fa765db41a2b61.png

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So let me preface this by saying I love the renderings...

 

But Pace will have a very unique challenge in blending the area with Downtown in a way that makes it accessible. The lake to the north and the Stadium to the south really cut off linear access to the development. There will need to be retail/food on such a scale that would make the development a destination, imo. 

 

I think there are some great people involved in this development though, so I look forward to seeing more proposals. I would love to see the water taxi fleet and route services expanded to include this development. I'd also love to see the waterfront line branch off, though that might be too much of an ask at this point. 

 

Nonetheless, I am really pleased and excited. 

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8 minutes ago, YABO713 said:

So let me preface this by saying I love the renderings...

 

But Pace will have a very unique challenge in blending the area with Downtown in a way that makes it accessible. The lake to the north and the Stadium to the south really cut off linear access to the development. There will need to be retail/food on such a scale that would make the development a destination, imo. 

 

I think there are some great people involved in this development though, so I look forward to seeing more proposals. I would love to see the water taxi fleet and route services expanded to include this development. I'd also love to see the waterfront line branch off, though that might be too much of an ask at this point. 

 

Nonetheless, I am really pleased and excited. 

I always think the same thing about North Coast harbor but somehow it's always packed there. Just need to plan good events to keep people coming to that area. 

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34 minutes ago, Geowizical said:

Thanks! That's what I noticed too, the malls do line up almost perfectly! And I think when Pace referenced "connecting the mall" in the livestream, maybe he was hinting at doing just this... expanding the mall down and connecting it to this vertical strip of green space. If so, I think something like this would literally be perfect. 

image.thumb.png.bb18ab54cab921f1e4fa765db41a2b61.png

Yup! Expand the convention center underneath it and put a transportation center under it as well at Lakeside Ave level (I know @KJP has written at length on this) and now we’d be getting somewhere!

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1 hour ago, jeremyck01 said:

 

After seeing the 3D renderings above, I don’t mind that these are all lower rise buildings. It adds a good bit of density. I know we’ve discussed it here before as well, but if I recall correctly, there are height restrictions around here as well due to the airport. 

 

Definite restrictions due to the airport.   Even the buildings in this rendering look like they may be too high.  

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1 hour ago, YABO713 said:

 I'd also love to see the waterfront line branch off, though that might be too much of an ask at this point. 

 

 

I was thinking about this too, so I measured the walk (on Google Maps).  From the East 9th st station it is about a 1/2 mile walk to the nearest part of this development.  From the West 3rd station, about 1/4 mile (to the closest part to that station).  If we get @KJP 's transit center with a relocated Waterfront station, that walk would be just over 1/4 mile, with some of it covered.  I would think 1/4 mile walk to light rail would generally be considered accessible, although that would certainly be a cold walk in winter.  As much as I like the idea of the Waterfront line wrapping around the north side of the stadium to benefit this development, I don't think it would generate enough additional ridership to prioritize it over other light rail proposals.

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20 minutes ago, Boomerang_Brian said:

 

I was thinking about this too, so I measured the walk (on Google Maps).  From the East 9th st station it is about a 1/2 mile walk to the nearest part of this development.  From the West 3rd station, about 1/4 mile (to the closest part to that station).  If we get @KJP 's transit center with a relocated Waterfront station, that walk would be just over 1/4 mile, with some of it covered.  I would think 1/4 mile walk to light rail would generally be considered accessible, although that would certainly be a cold walk in winter.  As much as I like the idea of the Waterfront line wrapping around the north side of the stadium to benefit this development, I don't think it would generate enough additional ridership to prioritize it over other light rail proposals.

Pretty sure .25 miles is the top limit for most american's to be cool with walking (🙄), I'm on my work computer or I'd google the study. Sounds like this would be in the sweetspot...minus the winter breeze off the lake - maybe the developers could have a shuttle of some sort or a MPLS tube system going on haha.

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2 hours ago, CleCaneFan said:

Yup! Expand the convention center underneath it and put a transportation center under it as well at Lakeside Ave level (I know @KJP has written at length on this) and now we’d be getting somewhere!

 

I’m actually getting a real Navy Yards in DC vibe to this, albeit on a bit smaller scale. That part of DC’s waterfront is a fantastic example of how to engage and develop an industrial waterfront area — also separated by the core of the city by a freeway — with truly impressive and modern low-rise development, mixing existing industrial buildings with new, complimentary architecture. I hope Dick Pace, Cumberland, et al, make a visit there if they haven’t already for some inspiration on how good this could be. 

Edited by brtshrcegr

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12 minutes ago, brtshrcegr said:

 

I’m actually getting a real Navy Yards in DC vibe to this, albeit on a bit smaller scale. That part of DC’s waterfront is a fantastic example of how to engage and develop an industrial waterfront area — also separated by the core of the city by a freeway — with truly impressive and modern low-rise development, mixing existing industrial buildings with new, complimentary architecture. I hope Dick apace, Cumberland, et al, make a visit there if they haven’t already for some inspiration on how good this could be. 

 

And take the Scranton Peninsula people along with him!  😉

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2 hours ago, brtshrcegr said:

 

I’m actually getting a real Navy Yards in DC vibe to this, albeit on a bit smaller scale. That part of DC’s waterfront is a fantastic example of how to engage and develop an industrial waterfront area — also separated by the core of the city by a freeway — with truly impressive and modern low-rise development, mixing existing industrial buildings with new, complimentary architecture. I hope Dick Pace, Cumberland, et al, make a visit there if they haven’t already for some inspiration on how good this could be. 

Doesn't remind me of that area in any form.  This is from someone who knows what that area looked like 25 years ago.

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Seriously, how hard would it be to construct a spur off of the Waterfront line north of the flats? Wind it through this development, past the new hotel, run it through the front plazas of the GLSC and Rock Hall, but all in conjunction of the downtown loop. Would be amazing.

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8 hours ago, Cleburger said:

 

Definite restrictions due to the airport.   Even the buildings in this rendering look like they may be too high.  

Yeah, I'm curious what those restrictions are... On the Fox 8 website, they have one extra image not shown previously which actually look pretty tall. They must've designed them with height restrictions in mind (I would hope), but at the very least, I think the overall heights of the buildings blend in nicely with the stadium:

image.png.256adeff270ace726e86ffcb972e889d.png

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