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Cleveland: Lakefront Development and News

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9 hours ago, trej34 said:

I feel that the best option would be to start to combine river and lakefront amenities with a true water transportation network like Chicago:

https://shorelinesightseeing.com/about/maps-routes/

 

Cleveland docks should be: 1) Edgewater Park 2) Wendy Park 3) West Bank Flats 4) East Bank of the Flats 5) Merwins Wharf 6) New Pace development Dock or E9th Pier 7) East 55th St Marine & Pier 8) Gordon Park / MLK. My family would be able to spend a whole day out and about day tripping afte riding the Green Line in from Shaker Heights.

 

For some reason this solution escaped me - I thought of the water taxi as it exists today and how it underserves its potential. Leveraging the waterway really opens up much more potential than a fixed connection between one side of the river versus another. Having multiple maritime connections is especially great (Gordon park really escapes people, particularly with the highway bisecting it)! I love the Chicago comparison for the potential this has. Frequency and seasonality are the main concerns I would have, along with being well-promoted and known between locals and tourists alike, not to mention those pouring into E-9th/Voinovich park to see the RRHOF with little other idea of what to expect...

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15 hours ago, gpodawund said:

Actually if you zoom in quite a bit on the PDF you can see there are retail liners on the south sides of buildings 1-3. Doesn't appear to be as much as I'd have hoped for at a location like this, and I'd prefer there be some on building 4 since that's being built first, but better than nothing I suppose.

And there will also be retail in the parking podium bases of both the office and hotel buildings too.

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6 hours ago, Larry1962 said:

And there will also be retail in the parking podium bases of both the office and hotel buildings too.

You missed the conversation about that portion I see.

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1 hour ago, ydard said:

I suspect it will be a miniature Battery Park (NYC).

It does have some of the same characteristics as Battery Park; a somewhat secluded, urban, waterfront oasis, built in a park-like setting, with relatively easy access to the rest of the city.

 

Another similarity to NYC.

Edited by Frmr CLEder
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I posted this article link in the Hilton hotel development thread, but I am posing this question here in the lakefront thread...

 

Can any of this money (is it $30 million or $70 million? ) be used to help build an expansion of the convention center, a second hotel or maybe the land bridge over the lakefront tracks and Shoreway?

 

Downtown Hilton comes in way under budget

https://www.crainscleveland.com/government/downtown-hilton-comes-way-under-budget?ite=102890&ito=1153&itq=7a07e556-42f0-4a0c-9d97-73d63b59c700&itx[idio]=7208206

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1 hour ago, KJP said:

I posted this article link in the Hilton hotel development thread, but I am posing this question here in the lakefront thread...

 

Can any of this money (is it $30 million or $70 million? ) be used to help build an expansion of the convention center, a second hotel or maybe the land bridge over the lakefront tracks and Shoreway?

 

Downtown Hilton comes in way under budget

https://www.crainscleveland.com/government/downtown-hilton-comes-way-under-budget?ite=102890&ito=1153&itq=7a07e556-42f0-4a0c-9d97-73d63b59c700&itx[idio]=7208206

 

If it is possible, let's put Mr. Applebaum in charge of that project, too.

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Maybe we can see another underbudget hilton tower the likes of the one in Columbus under construction right now, but that's for sure something for convention or hilton thread.

 

Edit: I'm sure we can take plenty of load on the hotel market, the Marriott in Detroit is the third tallest hotel in the western hemisphere, and there's just about as much to do in Detroit as there is in Cleveland. But Detroit is a bigger yet more unappealing city imo. If we can book larger conventions and events the likes of the International Film Fest, I'm sure there would be no problem centralizing the malls around hotel development.

Edited by tastybunns
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9 hours ago, tastybunns said:

Maybe we can see another underbudget hilton tower the likes of the one in Columbus under construction right now, but that's for sure something for convention or hilton thread.

 

Edit: I'm sure we can take plenty of load on the hotel market, the Marriott in Detroit is the third tallest hotel in the western hemisphere, and there's just about as much to do in Detroit as there is in Cleveland. But Detroit is a bigger yet more unappealing city imo. If we can book larger conventions and events the likes of the International Film Fest, I'm sure there would be no problem centralizing the malls around hotel development.

 

Detroit is still the 11th largest metro in the USA.  Cleveland is 33. 

 

Detroit is market 13 in TV.  Cleveland is 19. 

 

I'm not sure how tall hotels and film festivals wind together in a post, but Detroit is still the worldwide home of the auto industry.   I am a life long Clevelander and a cheerleader for both cities...but I'm failing to follow your comparisons.  

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More lakefront related, less development related.......Recently learned via an email that Pace has an idea to create a beach along the end of the e.9 pier.  This would require a jetty, most likely, even though its inside the break wall.  He had initially planned a floating fresh water pool, which i think was based on an implementation in Europe.  He has ambitious plans to clean the water using an updated vesion of a Living Machine.  I sincerely hope he can figure it out.  Ice skating inside the break wall in winter would be another attractant to our Great Lake. 

Cleveland needs and deserves a stronger connection to its Great Lake. More places to touch and experience the water downtown would be fantastic. DId you know that we’ve destroyed 95% of lake-shore wetlands in the last 50+ years? Wetlands can be thought of as the kidneys of the watershed ecology. They filter and clean water while providing habitat for myriad plant and animal Species. 

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@Cleburger I was referring the Renaissance Center as a parallel to Cleveland's growing tourism, tech, and aerospace industry. The fact that the Hilton is almost booked at occupancy should strike numbers and $dollar-signs$. I don't care wholly about metro size, if you have reputable fortified fortune 500's, businesses, and events going on just about every week there's no doubt in my mind people would want to wander around town for a weekend. Film fest was just an example of a strong convention market tailored to any and just about every culture. Now it may not be the biggest but we also have auto conventions, sports events, and even after the MLB All Star weekend, there's alot that I see happening downtown. Hotels are there, but I think we have the potential to expand on that issue.

Edited by tastybunns
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38 minutes ago, theguv said:

Cleveland needs and deserves a stronger connection to its Great Lake. More places to touch and experience the water downtown would be fantastic. DId you know that we’ve destroyed 95% of lake-shore wetlands in the last 50+ years? Wetlands can be thought of as the kidneys of the watershed ecology. They filter and clean water while providing habitat for myriad plant and animal Species. 

Absolutely agree. Though I'm skeptical about how the beach would turn out, as beaches within breakwalls have a more issues with pollutants vs. open water beaches. But you have to like where Pace is coming from. Those wetland numbers are sobering, and a reminder of why runoff has been such an issue on Lake Erie. It's actually kind of strange that there isn't demand for more wetland restoration as a matter of law. Anyhow, if you look at Chicago and Toronto, their plans to to re-naturalize their shoreline look pretty incredible, and probably where Pace is getting his ideas. Call it coastal envy! 

 

https://www.som.com/projects/chicago_lakeside_master_plan

 

https://www.blogto.com/city/2016/03/torontos_waterfront_will_change_completely_in_10_years/

Edited by surfohio
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3 hours ago, theguv said:

More lakefront related, less development related.......Recently learned via an email that Pace has an idea to create a beach along the end of the e.9 pier.  This would require a jetty, most likely, even though its inside the break wall.  He had initially planned a floating fresh water pool, which i think was based on an implementation in Europe.  He has ambitious plans to clean the water using an updated vesion of a Living Machine.  I sincerely hope he can figure it out.  Ice skating inside the break wall in winter would be another attractant to our Great Lake. 

Cleveland needs and deserves a stronger connection to its Great Lake. More places to touch and experience the water downtown would be fantastic. DId you know that we’ve destroyed 95% of lake-shore wetlands in the last 50+ years? Wetlands can be thought of as the kidneys of the watershed ecology. They filter and clean water while providing habitat for myriad plant and animal Species. 

 

If it's anything like the Badeschiff in Berlin, that would be incredible. 

 

image.thumb.png.91de8af5f81f0385c2a916dd4b88510c.png

 

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Badeschiff/@52.4978644,13.4515841,17z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m5!3m4!1s0x47a84e55b3f927d9:0x1d3d804d4ffad2c8!8m2!3d52.4978612!4d13.4537728

Edited by smimes
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Haven't seen this posted anywhere. 

 

Lakefront makes sense for Cleveland Browns, says attorney who helped build FirstEnergy Stadium

Author: Mark Naymik

Published: 8:56 PM EDT September 22, 2019

 

CLEVELAND — Cleveland’s lakefront, which has been slowly developing over the last two decades, is a good place for a football stadium, says attorney Fred Nance.

Global managing partner of the law firm Squire Patton Boggs, Nance negotiated in 1995 with the NFL on behalf of then-Cleveland Mayor White to keep football in town, after Art Modell, the owner of the old Browns, bolted for Baltimore.

 

While the city leaders considered other sites, including a couple near Gateway, the sports complex that’s home to Progressive Field and Rocket Mortgage Field House, they settled on the footprint of old Municipal Stadium on the lakefront. Some critics have argued that the massive structure stymied expansion along the lakefront.  

 

“But ultimately the NFL was as interested as Mayor White in trying to keep it here at this location because we all foresaw the development of lakefront and the fact that Cleveland was going to become a place that had a vibrant downtown,” he said in a recently in an interview with Channel 3 outside FirstEnergy Stadium. “And a lot of those predictions have come true and I think the Browns had been part of some of those discussions about lakefront development.”

 

https://www.wkyc.com/article/sports/nfl/browns/lakefront-makes-sense-for-browns-says-attorney-who-helped-build-firstenergy-stadium/95-fad6c61e-54d3-48ec-89e3-8f5819e454a5

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Also getting mixed messages on this one too. One developer says that the Haslams aren't very interested in the lakefront and aren't doing any planning for the future down there. And....another says the Haslams are very interested in the lakefront and are trying to lure a corporate HQ down there as part of their stadium development. So, welcome to the wonderful world of pursuit of truth.

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50 minutes ago, KJP said:

Also getting mixed messages on this one too. One developer says that the Haslams aren't very interested in the lakefront and aren't doing any planning for the future down there. And....another says the Haslams are very interested in the lakefront and are trying to lure a corporate HQ down there as part of their stadium development. So, welcome to the wonderful world of pursuit of truth.

Jimmy is notorious for saying different things to different people in the NFL world, so not a huge surprise to hear that.   

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Fred Nance is part of the reason Cleveland got such a bad deal with the albatross, I mean stadium. The guy isn't one of the good guys.

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16 minutes ago, TBideon said:

Fred Nance is part of the reason Cleveland got such a bad deal with the albatross, I mean stadium. The guy isn't one of the good guys.

 

How so?   If you are talking about it not being covered, that was the strong preference of the active fan base.

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On 9/22/2019 at 4:30 PM, tastybunns said:

Maybe we can see another underbudget hilton tower the likes of the one in Columbus under construction right now, but that's for sure something for convention or hilton thread.

 

Edit: I'm sure we can take plenty of load on the hotel market, the Marriott in Detroit is the third tallest hotel in the western hemisphere, and there's just about as much to do in Detroit as there is in Cleveland. But Detroit is a bigger yet more unappealing city imo. If we can book larger conventions and events the likes of the International Film Fest, I'm sure there would be no problem centralizing the malls around hotel development.

 

When it was the Westin it was called Fort Westin.   The RenCen was meant to be a more or less self contained unit, an island in Detroit immediately adjacent to Cobo Hall's high profile conventions and the bridge to the Windsor Ballet.

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More detailed view...

IMG_20191002_152037.jpg

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Playground north of Great Lakes Science Center - groundbreaking on Oct 28 at 2:30

 

https://www.cleveland.com/news/2019/10/first-ever-playground-planned-for-downtown-cleveland.html

 

“North Coast Harbor will be home to the first playground in downtown Cleveland.

Downtown Cleveland Partnership is staying mum until the free family groundbreaking, at 2:30 p.m. Oct. 28. But the playground will be built north of the Great Lakes Science Center, on the grass near the William G. Mather steamship.”

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Might be worth a separate thread someday. This could be a huge project for the region....

 

Euclid+waterfront+plan.jpg

 

WEDNESDAY, OCTOBER 16, 2019

Planning starts for cross-county Lake Erie trail, erosion control

 

A large investment in Greater Cleveland's greatest natural asset could result from a multi-jurisdictional planning effort announced on Oct. 17 at the Lakewood Women's Club Pavilion at  Lakewood Park. The investment could result in a transformative economic and quality of life payback for the region.

Cuyahoga County Executive Armond Budish announced $500,000 for conceptual-level planning for the cross-county Lake Erie Trail along more than 30 miles of the county's shoreline.

 

MORE:

https://neo-trans.blogspot.com/2019/10/planning-starts-for-cross-county-lake.html

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8 minutes ago, KJP said:

Might be worth a separate thread someday. This could be a huge project for the region....

 

Euclid+waterfront+plan.jpg

 

WEDNESDAY, OCTOBER 16, 2019

Planning starts for cross-county Lake Erie trail, erosion control

 

A large investment in Greater Cleveland's greatest natural asset could result from a multi-jurisdictional planning effort announced on Oct. 17 at the Lakewood Women's Club Pavilion at  Lakewood Park. The investment could result in a transformative economic and quality of life payback for the region.

Cuyahoga County Executive Armond Budish announced $500,000 for conceptual-level planning for the cross-county Lake Erie Trail along more than 30 miles of the county's shoreline.

 

MORE:

https://neo-trans.blogspot.com/2019/10/planning-starts-for-cross-county-lake.html

Yes! I've always wondered (outside of our industrial past) why we've never activated the waterfront (and river) for that matter. Cheers to that idea finally being realized!

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12 minutes ago, GISguy said:

Yes! I've always wondered (outside of our industrial past) why we've never activated the waterfront (and river) for that matter. Cheers to that idea finally being realized!

You've answered your own question.  Our River and lakefront has never been recreational, it's always been a working industrial land.  Bratenahl going east and Lakewood going west is where the recreational portions of the lakefront are in NE Ohio.  Edgewater was horrible back in the day.  We always went to Mentor Headland or Geneva.

 

Now with re-population, in city neighborhoods, on or adjacent to the lake, people want access to the lake .   

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8 hours ago, MyTwoSense said:

You've answered your own question.  Our River and lakefront has never been recreational, it's always been a working industrial land.  Bratenahl going east and Lakewood going west is where the recreational portions of the lakefront are in NE Ohio.  Edgewater was horrible back in the day.  We always went to Mentor Headland or Geneva.

 

Now with re-population, in city neighborhoods, on or adjacent to the lake, people want access to the lake .   

I know I'm  a broken record in saying this but I've been here probably about four years now and I've heard horror stories about Edgewater, really looking forward to this. I wonder if I90 realignment by the old power plant/E71 is still something powers that be are considering?

 

Also, I always look to pgh as a comparison, with water trails and whatnot. I lived there a year, and they've also had a recent epiphany when it comes to their rivers- they've built trails and whatnot alongside them and have parks planned too.

Edited by GISguy
Was typing on my phone
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1 hour ago, GISguy said:

I know I'm  a broken record in saying this but I've been here probably about four years now amd I've heard horror stories about Edgewater, really looking forward to this. I wonder if I90 realignment by the old power plant/E71 is still something powers that be are considering?

 

Also, I always look to pgh as a comparison, with water trails and whatnot. I lived there a year, and they've also had a recent epiphany when it comes to their rivers- they've built trails and whatnot alongside them amd have parks planned too.

 

I’m also a big fan of the I-90 realignment at Gordon Park proposal. That would create a massive redevelopment opportunity right along our greatest resource (the lake). Although that would also be spectacularly expensive. It’d be interesting to collect all the various proposals in the area with their costs to see how we would prioritize them. (Specifically ones that would likely require government spending: Transit proposals, parks, lakefront, riverfront, etc.)

Edited by Boomerang_Brian
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10 hours ago, MyTwoSense said:

You've answered your own question.  Our River and lakefront has never been recreational, it's always been a working industrial land.  Bratenahl going east and Lakewood going west is where the recreational portions of the lakefront are in NE Ohio.  Edgewater was horrible back in the day.  We always went to Mentor Headland or Geneva.

 

Now with re-population, in city neighborhoods, on or adjacent to the lake, people want access to the lake .   

 

Euclid Beach Park going east.   Directly east of Bratenhal is the Easterly water treatment plant.   Then there's some private residential areas that are residents only (with the strong support of NEORSD and Polensek), then the Euclid Beach towers.

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I didn't know the Whiskey Island connector bridge was going to have a redesign. This is the 3rd Miguel Rosales designed pedestrian bridge in town to be scraped. 

 

"McDermott said the design couldn’t meet safety standards required by Norfolk Southern or potential stress from ice and winds without adding significantly to its cost. Metroparks ultimately turned to KS Associates in Elyria, a civil engineering firm, for a design that met the railroad’s requirements. The project includes a 10-foot-high mesh barrier with a 2-inch-wide grid on both sides of the 12-foot-wide bridge."

Link: https://www.cleveland.com/news/2019/10/metroparks-awards-6m-to-build-wendy-park-bridge-connecting-lakefront-to-towpath-lake-link-trails.html

 

image.png.117c17c5f39061cb4247b490c0055a19.png

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19 hours ago, KJP said:

WEDNESDAY, OCTOBER 16, 2019

Planning starts for cross-county Lake Erie trail, erosion control

 

A large investment in Greater Cleveland's greatest natural asset could result from a multi-jurisdictional planning effort announced on Oct. 17 at the Lakewood Women's Club Pavilion at  Lakewood Park. The investment could result in a transformative economic and quality of life payback for the region.

Cuyahoga County Executive Armond Budish announced $500,000 for conceptual-level planning for the cross-county Lake Erie Trail along more than 30 miles of the county's shoreline.

 

MORE:

https://neo-trans.blogspot.com/2019/10/planning-starts-for-cross-county-lake.html

 

Great to see this scoop. Saw some more details here: http://lakewoodobserver.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=25475

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Debbie Downer here. I'm almost as worried as I am optimistic about these efforts. But my main concern is that this plan will exacerbate the erosion problem, as many ill advised attempts at erosion-control have done before. I'd very much like to hear word that the best coastal engineers in the country will be consulting. There's just no reason to believe that the county engineer and the dreaded Army Corps of Engineers has the necessary experience to get this right on their own. 

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This is a TLCI plan at heart, so there are a limited number of high-quality consultants that can be chosen. It cannot just be accomplished by the engineer and army corps.

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4 minutes ago, CbusTransit said:

This is a TLCI plan at heart, so there are a limited number of high-quality consultants that can be chosen. It cannot just be accomplished by the engineer and army corps.

 

What is TLCI? 

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4 minutes ago, CbusTransit said:

Transportation for livable communities initiatives grant

 

Okay then. Until they hire consultants who know what the heck they're doing then this plan is not a good one. 

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22 minutes ago, surfohio said:

 

Okay then. Until they hire consultants who know what the heck they're doing then this plan is not a good one. 

 

Consultants who are TLCI-capable include the likes of WSP and AECOM. They are global companies that can pull in staff who are well versed in Great Lakes geology and hydrology, Army Corps regs, etc. Besides, this is just a conceptual level plan. If they were doing project-level engineering and environmental clearance, this $500,000 plan would become a $30 million plan -- which ultimately it will be, albeit in bits and pieces as sections of the shoreline are improved incrementally.

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34 minutes ago, KJP said:

 

Consultants who are TLCI-capable include the likes of WSP and AECOM. They are global companies that can pull in staff who are well versed in Great Lakes geology and hydrology, Army Corps regs, etc. Besides, this is just a conceptual level plan. If they were doing project-level engineering and environmental clearance, this $500,000 plan would become a $30 million plan -- which ultimately it will be, albeit in bits and pieces as sections of the shoreline are improved incrementally.

 

Okay. Here's all I'll say for the time being. The vast majority of erosion issues in Ohio - and really everywhere - is building  too close to the water.  Beaches are the product of erosion, and stopping erosion destroys beaches. Re-naturalizing the shoreline is the proper way to go, not armoring it with more cement, rocks and rebar. 

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4 hours ago, CbusTransit said:

@surfohio, if you want an idea of what this project may look like, google euclid’s waterfront improvement plan, if you haven’t seen it before.

Yes, thanks. I have seen it. While I'm ecstatic the issue has finally gotten needed attention,  I think that the plan relies far too much on armoring the shoreline. I'm skeptical about the value of those pocket beaches among all of those rock jetties as these erosion control structures create dangerous and unpredictable currents. The choice has been made to preserve the land at the expense of the natural sand beaches that are supposed to be there. It may be that there just isn't the money or the political will or enough cooperative effort to get back to where we were. But this armoring, once completed, is the decision we have to live with for the next hundred years. 

 

https://oceanservice.noaa.gov/facts/shoreline-armoring.html

Shoreline armoring has both beneficial and detrimental effects. Armored shorelines can prevent sandy beaches, wetlands, and other intertidal areas from moving inland as the land erodes or sea levels rise, but they also have the potential to eliminate habitat for marine organisms and beach front for the public by restricting the natural movement of sediments. The key to shoreline stabilization, if it is required, is to use a site-specific stabilization method that balances the needs of the public and the needs of the natural system.

 

 

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2 hours ago, surfohio said:

Yes, thanks. I have seen it. While I'm ecstatic the issue has finally gotten needed attention,  I think that the plan relies far too much on armoring the shoreline. I'm skeptical about the value of those pocket beaches among all of those rock jetties as these erosion control structures create dangerous and unpredictable currents. The choice has been made to preserve the land at the expense of the natural sand beaches that are supposed to be there. It may be that there just isn't the money or the political will or enough cooperative effort to get back to where we were. But this armoring, once completed, is the decision we have to live with for the next hundred years. 

 

https://oceanservice.noaa.gov/facts/shoreline-armoring.html

Shoreline armoring has both beneficial and detrimental effects. Armored shorelines can prevent sandy beaches, wetlands, and other intertidal areas from moving inland as the land erodes or sea levels rise, but they also have the potential to eliminate habitat for marine organisms and beach front for the public by restricting the natural movement of sediments. The key to shoreline stabilization, if it is required, is to use a site-specific stabilization method that balances the needs of the public and the needs of the natural system.

 

 

Very informative.  Thank you.

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3 hours ago, surfohio said:

The key to shoreline stabilization, if it is required, is to use a site-specific stabilization method that balances the needs of the public and the needs of the natural system.

 

 


Understand the fearful pessimism, but as stated up-thread—no one has posited a 30-mile long cement/rebar system. In fact, Euclid’s project someone dismantles such systems. Additionally, Lake Erie’s southern shore is not Miami’s eastern shore, and a comparison to sand beaches is both unfair and incorrect. 
 

Ohio IS home to native bluffs that ARE suspectible to erosion, regardless to natural or man made sandy beaches. In addition, as they are natural bluffs, you can’t quite replace them with “natural swampland” either. 
 

You could argue that we shouldn’t have destroyed all the Lake Erie swamps and we shouldn’t have built on the susceptible bluffs. As a recovering south Florida marine biologist, I love arguing we shouldn’t have destroyed the coral reefs and mangrove forests to replace them with sandy beaches. But in both cases, we did—so the point is moot. 
 

Now, as a recovering Cleveland-trained environmental planner, I’d say at this early stage, we have the right types of minds (Metroparks, Port, Euclid, etc.) involves early in the process to get this right. Let’s turn that fearful pessimism into hopeful optimism!! 🙂

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26 minutes ago, Clevecane said:

Flying into FLL, can’t help but wonder, why is this in Hollywood, Florida, not Cleveland’s lakefront? 

 

I drive past it every day and often think the same thing, or at least somewhere downtown. It is part of the casino (Seminoles deep pockets). Although it could have the hotel component only with the support of the Rock Hall.

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1 hour ago, Clevecane said:


Understand the fearful pessimism, but as stated up-thread—no one has posited a 30-mile long cement/rebar system. In fact, Euclid’s project someone dismantles such systems. Additionally, Lake Erie’s southern shore is not Miami’s eastern shore, and a comparison to sand beaches is both unfair and incorrect. 
 

 

 

Unfair and incorrect? This is what Euclid Beach did and should look like. 

beach1.jpg

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2 hours ago, Florida Guy said:

I drive past it every day and often think the same thing, or at least somewhere downtown. It is part of the casino (Seminoles deep pockets). Although it could have the hotel component only with the support of the Rock Hall.

My office is in Miami Gardens, its visible from Aventura, sits in the middle of nowhere and yes, it could have been a nice themed hotel, consistent with the R&RHF&M.

Edited by Frmr CLEder
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3 hours ago, Florida Guy said:

I drive past it every day and often think the same thing, or at least somewhere downtown. It is part of the casino (Seminoles deep pockets). Although it could have the hotel component only with the support of the Rock Hall.


Yes, back when I lived down here, you only needed to be 18 to get in—and it was no where near as glitzy! 🤣

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4 hours ago, surfohio said:

 

Unfair and incorrect? This is what Euclid Beach did and should look like. 

beach1.jpg


I’m saying Lake Erie bluffs need to be reinforced so the houses DON’T fall into the Lake...

 

Edit: @surfohio pointed out I’m an idiot. 😂

Edited by Clevecane
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1 minute ago, Clevecane said:


I’m saying Lake Erie bluffs need to be reinforced so the houses fall into the Lake...

Haha. Freudian slip. 

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