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I tried to open that page before posting my prior message but couldn't. Still can't open the page. I assume there's a map there? If so, can some share a printscreen of that page?


"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!" -- Lady Liberty

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That map corresponds almost perfectly with what my dream merged Cleveland would look like, including those northern Summit County suburbs. Obviously I'd also include the white areas as well, but also the areas that make up old Willoughby Township and western Geauga County.

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Here's a nice little story out of the town I grew up in...

 

Madison Village wants to dissolve police department

By Adam Ferrise, cleveland.com

on February 14, 2016 at 4:52 PM

 

MADISON, Ohio — Madison Village wants to dissolve its police department as a cost-saving measure, the village's mayor announced in an open letter to residents.

 

Madison Township will provide policing for the village if councilmembers pass a resolution to dissolve the department. Council will discuss the subject at Tuesday's meeting.

 

The move is expected to save the village $81,000 annually over the village's 2015 police budget and about $250,000 from what the village would need to have a fully-staffed police department, according to Mayor Sam Britton Jr.'s letter.

 

http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2016/02/madison_village_wants_to_disso.html#incart_river_home

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This is part of my gripe with Ohio's inefficiencies (per my earlier comments in the Kasich thread): why are there township, county, and village/town/city/state police divisions? In most states, it's just county/city/state. If you have a very small town, like villages in Ohio, most likely you don't have a police force due to the overhead and costs (insurance is a big issue), and you rely on the county. For many of these small towns, the police serve as nothing more than revenue generators - like Arlington Heights, that dissolved when it was discovered village members were taking the profits and using to enrich themselves. And remember New Rome? Or Hanging Rock? Or Brooklyn? There are countless examples of waste and excess.

 

I just did a scan of my topo here, and Madison as a village is tiny. The township is also not geographically large and mostly rural. It's also near Painesville. Do villages/towns/cities in Ohio do resource sharing - so that other cities can cover the Madison jurisdiction? Or does it fall under a township (and if no resources are available, county)?

 

Using my home state as an example, my city of Raceland (<3,000 residents) has a sizable police force, but they also patrol the nearby town of Wurtland through a contract. They also have open contracts with Worthington and Flatwoods to open patrol, and those cities have the same agreement with Raceland. The county, Greenup, is large and rural, and has a sizable sheriff count, but it does not cover the cities. You never see the sheriff in any of the cities - only in the county and other unincorporated areas.

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Being from there, I can see why Madison township has its own police department, instead of relying on the county like the smaller townships around like in Geauga and Ashtabula Counties. As of 2010 there was about 20,000 people living there, and geographically its the largest in the county at nearly 44sm. It takes a good 17mins just to get from the northern end to the southern end driving straight down the main road. What I never understood though was having police in the tiny village separate, and creating a doughnut hole for the township to tend around. The village police reminded me alot of Linndale in that they mostly spent their time sitting waiting for pull people over for speeding. Especially frustrating when the speed limit on a road drops for the small stretch thru the village...

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Do villages/towns/cities in Ohio do resource sharing - so that other cities can cover the Madison jurisdiction? Or does it fall under a township (and if no resources are available, county)?

 

Many communities in Ohio share services and resources, and the state has provided some incentives to encourage more of this, but we are still left with a legacy of too many municipalities and townships. Dissolving, merging, etc. is often a political challenge as residents do not want to give up their identity.

 

Ohio is not in the worst situation. Cuyahoga County has something like 57 jurisdictions, while Allegheny County (Pittsburgh) has something like 127.

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i don't think its the community identity so much as its the local politicians and other institutions that dont want to lose their jobs.

 

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i don't think its the community identity so much as its the local politicians and other institutions that dont want to lose their jobs.

 

 

Oh, not in the least.  In the Nordonia burbs, regular residents would likely be at least as opposed as politicians to even merging with each other, let alone any culturally different communities.

 

Yet each of them is involved with resource sharing.  Sagamore and Northfield Center share fire, the Center uses the county sheriff rather than it's own police, and the village used to do fire service for Walton Hills. 

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if only cle hadnt given away the water rights, we wouldnt be having much of a discussion about all this. it would be one big happy columbus and all these burbs would have become neighborhoods. it will probably take some kind of cuyahoga county consolidation referendum to compel more unity. appealing to the taxpayers wallet would get it over, but likely no politicians would ever put anything like that on a ballot.

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I do wonder about this all the time.  Ever since the Plain Dealer had a story maybe 10 years ago about Columbus annexations through water access.  I wonder the rationale to selling the water instead of annexation.

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But Nordonia is such a perfect name for the merger.  We could give it a coat of arms and call it a Grand Duchy.

 

Well it is the name of the school district, whose teams are called the "Knights".  :)

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if only cle hadnt given away the water rights, we wouldnt be having much of a discussion about all this. it would be one big happy columbus and all these burbs would have become neighborhoods. it will probably take some kind of cuyahoga county consolidation referendum to compel more unity. appealing to the taxpayers wallet would get it over, but likely no politicians would ever put anything like that on a ballot.

 

Each and every municipality's voters would have to approve it, or they aren't part of it. 

 

All using water as a bludgeon would have accomplished would have been Euclid and Lakewood building their own water systems to supply the suburbs.  So you'd achieve the opposite of your goal.

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if only cle hadnt given away the water rights, we wouldnt be having much of a discussion about all this. it would be one big happy columbus and all these burbs would have become neighborhoods. it will probably take some kind of cuyahoga county consolidation referendum to compel more unity. appealing to the taxpayers wallet would get it over, but likely no politicians would ever put anything like that on a ballot.

 

Each and every municipality's voters would have to approve it, or they aren't part of it. 

 

All using water as a bludgeon would have accomplished would have been Euclid and Lakewood building their own water systems to supply the suburbs.  So you'd achieve the opposite of your goal.

 

It would be a significant stretch for Euclid or Lakewood to build a system of sufficient magnitude.  The financing issues would be complex and possibly insurmountable, though of course, with sufficient long-term commitments from inland burbs desperate to resist annexation, it might be possible.  But honestly, I've long believed that this is one of the most powerful levers that the City of Cleveland still has that it could deploy to push for consolidation.  Realistically, no one burb could invest enough fast enough to create a system.  You'd probably need a significant amount of private capital, as well as some kind of water cooperative among a large number of contiguous burbs (e.g., the "Western Cuyahoga Water Consortium" or something similar).

 

Of course, the other elephant in the room is the state legislature.  Cleveland doesn't have that many friends in Columbus and it certainly doesn't have the resources to match the state, so you'd need a consolidation-friendly legislature.  The Kasich administration has been surprisingly non-hostile to regionalism, but a more aggressive Cleveland might be a bit much for it, and the Ohio legislature would presumably be even more hostile, given the power of the suburbs and townships there.

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if only cle hadnt given away the water rights, we wouldnt be having much of a discussion about all this. it would be one big happy columbus and all these burbs would have become neighborhoods. it will probably take some kind of cuyahoga county consolidation referendum to compel more unity. appealing to the taxpayers wallet would get it over, but likely no politicians would ever put anything like that on a ballot.

 

Each and every municipality's voters would have to approve it, or they aren't part of it. 

 

All using water as a bludgeon would have accomplished would have been Euclid and Lakewood building their own water systems to supply the suburbs.  So you'd achieve the opposite of your goal.

 

It would be a significant stretch for Euclid or Lakewood to build a system of sufficient magnitude.  The financing issues would be complex and possibly insurmountable, though of course, with sufficient long-term commitments from inland burbs desperate to resist annexation, it might be possible.  But honestly, I've long believed that this is one of the most powerful levers that the City of Cleveland still has that it could deploy to push for consolidation.  Realistically, no one burb could invest enough fast enough to create a system.  You'd probably need a significant amount of private capital, as well as some kind of water cooperative among a large number of contiguous burbs (e.g., the "Western Cuyahoga Water Consortium" or something similar).

 

Of course, the other elephant in the room is the state legislature.  Cleveland doesn't have that many friends in Columbus and it certainly doesn't have the resources to match the state, so you'd need a consolidation-friendly legislature.  The Kasich administration has been surprisingly non-hostile to regionalism, but a more aggressive Cleveland might be a bit much for it, and the Ohio legislature would presumably be even more hostile, given the power of the suburbs and townships there.

 

Any serious attempt by Cleveland to involuntarily annex suburbs would instantly result in the state legislature not only helping block it but perhaps even taking punitive measures against the city.  Regardless of what party is in power.  The Republicans would be pro-suburban because their support is there.  The Democrats retain enough support in the suburbs that they would not wish to risk losing it by taking the city's side, and they risk precisely zero support by taking the suburban side.

 

People don't realize this though, which is why some see it as a real threat and therefore oppose any and all regionalization efforts as moves towards full consolidation.

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if only cle hadnt given away the water rights, we wouldnt be having much of a discussion about all this. it would be one big happy columbus and all these burbs would have become neighborhoods. it will probably take some kind of cuyahoga county consolidation referendum to compel more unity. appealing to the taxpayers wallet would get it over, but likely no politicians would ever put anything like that on a ballot.

 

Each and every municipality's voters would have to approve it, or they aren't part of it. 

 

All using water as a bludgeon would have accomplished would have been Euclid and Lakewood building their own water systems to supply the suburbs.  So you'd achieve the opposite of your goal.

 

It would be a significant stretch for Euclid or Lakewood to build a system of sufficient magnitude.  The financing issues would be complex and possibly insurmountable, though of course, with sufficient long-term commitments from inland burbs desperate to resist annexation, it might be possible.  But honestly, I've long believed that this is one of the most powerful levers that the City of Cleveland still has that it could deploy to push for consolidation.  Realistically, no one burb could invest enough fast enough to create a system.  You'd probably need a significant amount of private capital, as well as some kind of water cooperative among a large number of contiguous burbs (e.g., the "Western Cuyahoga Water Consortium" or something similar).

 

Of course, the other elephant in the room is the state legislature.  Cleveland doesn't have that many friends in Columbus and it certainly doesn't have the resources to match the state, so you'd need a consolidation-friendly legislature.  The Kasich administration has been surprisingly non-hostile to regionalism, but a more aggressive Cleveland might be a bit much for it, and the Ohio legislature would presumably be even more hostile, given the power of the suburbs and townships there.

 

Any serious attempt by Cleveland to involuntarily annex suburbs would instantly result in the state legislature not only helping block it but perhaps even taking punitive measures against the city.  Regardless of what party is in power.  The Republicans would be pro-suburban because their support is there.  The Democrats retain enough support in the suburbs that they would not wish to risk losing it by taking the city's side, and they risk precisely zero support by taking the suburban side.

 

As things stand today, I cynically agree, much as I hate to admit it.  I think those kinds of power struggles should be allowed to play out at the local level, because I think it's more than a little unfair for the suburbs to be essentially sheltered from all the downside of smallness by an entity so large that it has the power to tax Cleveland to punish Cleveland for trying to do right by Cleveland.

 

People don't realize this though, which is why some see it as a real threat and therefore oppose any and all regionalization efforts as moves towards full consolidation.

 

True, but that's because there are some people who actually do want full consolidation, so it's not as if the boogeyman is completely illusory.  The issue (and this is always a very complicated argument to make) is that there are people who want consolidation after shared-service regionalism, and people who just want shared-service regionalism, and that it's possible to support shared-service regionalism on the latter basis alone.

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Ohio proposes paying $10 million to help East Cleveland-Cleveland merger

 

COLUMBUS, Ohio -- As East Cleveland and Cleveland officials mull merging the two cities, state lawmakers could sweeten the deal with $10 million to fix up the inner-ring suburb.

 

The one-time appropriation would be available only if the two cities agree to merge and could only be used for infrastructure improvements such as roads, bridges and emergency equipment.

 

The idea is being pitched by Ohio Auditor Dave Yost for inclusion in the state capital budget bill or another off-year budget appropriation bill. Yost has warned East Cleveland's fiscal woes cannot be fixed without merging the city with another or filing for bankruptcy.

 

East Cleveland Mayor Gary Norton said the city needs about $17 million to provide "halfway decent" services and it plans to spend only about $11 million this year. The city is expected to bring in $600,000 less this year, $700,000 less in 2017, and $1.5 million less in 2018.

 

"We're faced with major cuts to police and fire and also not repairing any streets or fixing lights," Norton said. "We basically fall off a financial cliff in 2018."

 

http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2016/03/state_would_pay_10_million_to.html#incart_m-rpt-1

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i'm not from the area at all, but the article makes EC sound like a sieve with ever-widening holes. Why would Cleveland want to take that one? $10 million (once) and a slight bump in population? Seems like a raw deal for a city that isn't exactly swimming in cash.

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Cleveland can't afford to have a "failed state" on its border, particularly one so close to the burgeoning University Circle area.  East Cleveland's problems are already holding Cleveland back, regardless of where the lines are drawn.  Might as well take control of the situation.

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Cleveland can't afford to have a "failed state" on its border, particularly one so close to the burgeoning University Circle area.  East Cleveland's problems are already holding Cleveland back, regardless of where the lines are drawn.  Might as well take control of the situation.

 

I was initially against Cleveland annexing ECLE, ever since the rumors of GE Lighting leaving took hold. But what you said makes a lot of sense.

 

Now if only the residents of ECLE could get on board.

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Cleveland can't afford to have a "failed state" on its border, particularly one so close to the burgeoning University Circle area.  East Cleveland's problems are already holding Cleveland back, regardless of where the lines are drawn.  Might as well take control of the situation.

 

I was initially against Cleveland annexing ECLE, ever since the rumors of GE Lighting leaving took hold. But what you said makes a lot of sense.

 

Now if only the residents of ECLE could get on board.

IMO more important than getting the East Cleveland residents on board is getting the greedy councilmen/women of East Cleveland to play ball. Gary Norton wants to be taken over and get the ball rolling but they seem to be purposively dragging their feet.

 

You know it's bad when they almost lost trash collection service when the city was supposedly overdue on charges. It's really disheartening honestly, before this they were in fiscal emergency for 18 YEARS! That's crazy!

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Have you not been on some/all of East Cleveland's streets? I was taking some photographers down around the area yesterday - and they are all urban explorers - and were appalled at the condition of the city. One of the streets we went down had trash - couches, bags of clothes, televisions and more - in the middle of the street. They have been lying there for well over a year and a half - never cleaned up. Power poles and more lay on the sidewalk, knocked over when they either rusted through or were pushed down.

 

On some streets, like Terrace, there are potholes the size of tires that exceed 3 feet deep. Comically, there are concrete barriers in place near the sidewalks to close the road - but were never installed.

 

I saw Euclid Avenue finally get patched the other day - most likely because the RTA has been complaining endlessly about the condition of the road, but some of the biggest holes on Euclid were not repaired. Go figure.

 

And what an embarrassment to GE this must be. They have spent a considerable sum to rehabilitate their campus only to have all of the roads leading to it looking like a third world country. Noble has light posts with light fixtures that have been long damaged for years - some are only hanging on by the wires. Other poles are near rusting through at the base.

 

The city squanders its illegal collection of photo tickets - which was amended a while back that requires an officer be present by each camera to validate the photo tickets. Does East Cleveland bother to abide by this? No. They are crossing their fingers that the ruling is reversed while its on appeal - and is still citing (but not collecting?) $500,000/month in fines. If they lose the appeal, those fines that were collected will then need to be reimbursed.

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I said it before -- it would take a fiscal sweetener (I had assumed from the county) before Cleveland would ever consider annexing East Cleveland. I'm actually surprised the state offered this, but they're probably getting tired of babysitting East Cleveland.

 

If East Cleveland is annexed and all of Cleveland's charter and codes pertain to it, then it would justify adding only one council person to Cleveland City Council. I hope that council person is Gary Norton.

 

East Cleveland is going to continue to be a mess even after it is merged with Cleveland. So if the state was serious about getting off of fiscal emergency, then it needs to double that $10 million to $20 million. And if I had a voice in how that state funding was spent, I'd use it to leverage some federal funds (because even a $20 million sum is too small to make a big difference). I'd hire some more police, fire/EMS, service workers, building inspectors, assistant law director, another housing court judge, leverage some infrastructure grants for sewers and roads, and some site clearing/environmental remediation at a few key industrial properties to get them back into productive use again.


"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!" -- Lady Liberty

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I said it before -- it would take a fiscal sweetener (I had assumed from the county) before Cleveland would ever consider annexing East Cleveland. I'm actually surprised the state offered this, but they're probably getting tired of babysitting East Cleveland.

 

If East Cleveland is annexed and all of Cleveland's charter and codes pertain to it, then it would justify adding only one council person to Cleveland City Council. I hope that council person is Gary Norton.

 

East Cleveland is going to continue to be a mess even after it is merged with Cleveland. So if the state was serious about getting off of fiscal emergency, then it needs to double that $10 million to $20 million. And if I had a voice in how that state funding was spent, I'd use it to leverage some federal funds (because even a $20 million sum is too small to make a big difference). I'd hire some more police, fire/EMS, service workers, building inspectors, assistant law director, another housing court judge, leverage some infrastructure grants for sewers and roads, and some site clearing/environmental remediation at a few key industrial properties to get them back into productive use again.

 

Regular court.

 

Housing court needs to be merged back into the general court system in Cleveland.  It's too aware that tenants vote and landlords usually can't.

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$10 million is a joke for the amount of devastation which has occurred in E.C. over the last 40 years.  The city still has well over 1000 houses and apartment buildings which need to be demolished (at about $10,000 per demo for a regular house, that's your $10 million right there alone).  The article doesn't mention any of that money going towards demos which are needed and necessary.  Great idea, for sure.  But that's still a huge burden for Cleveland to take on without more funds to go specifically towards demos.  The market will not magically come back just because E.C. is annexed- it will only begin to come back once the the majority of the remaining vacant structures are cleared.

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$10 million is a joke for the amount of devastation which has occurred in E.C. over the last 40 years. 

 

Which isn't really the state of Ohio's doing.

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$10 million is a joke for the amount of devastation which has occurred in E.C. over the last 40 years.  The city still has well over 1000 houses and apartment buildings which need to be demolished (at about $10,000 per demo for a regular house, that's your $10 million right there alone).  The article doesn't mention any of that money going towards demos which are needed and necessary.  Great idea, for sure.  But that's still a huge burden for Cleveland to take on without more funds to go specifically towards demos.  The market will not magically come back just because E.C. is annexed- it will only begin to come back once the the majority of the remaining vacant structures are cleared.

 

I believe the feds are the entity giving Cleveland it's money to demo homes. I'd assume Cleveland share would increase with the addition of the associated real estate to its corporate borders. Infact the feds just re-upped the funding being used for vacant housing demo.

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$10 million is a joke for the amount of devastation which has occurred in E.C. over the last 40 years. 

 

Which isn't really the state of Ohio's doing.

 

You are correct that the devastation was not caused by the state. I pose this question though: The state put EC on Fiscal Emergency 18 years ago, at what point is putting a city on fiscal emergency not enough? I'd argue that the state should have proposed a merger decades ago before the situation got as bad as it did.

 

 

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Ohio probably needs to get in front of this issue.  Make mergers easier and incentivize them more.

 

Unlikely.  They need to treat this as a special case because being seen as pro-mergers could backfire among skittish suburbanites. 

 

Perception can be more important than reality when politics are involved.

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Cleveland can't afford to have a "failed state" on its border, particularly one so close to the burgeoning University Circle area.  East Cleveland's problems are already holding Cleveland back, regardless of where the lines are drawn.  Might as well take control of the situation.

 

I was initially against Cleveland annexing ECLE, ever since the rumors of GE Lighting leaving took hold. But what you said makes a lot of sense.

 

Now if only the residents of ECLE could get on board.

 

I'd be interested in knowing what GE Lighting actually thinks of this proposal, not that they'd be likely to make public whatever it is that they really think about it.  I think I'd be on board with it if I were them, though.

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A new article from Ideasream. The court will not force City Council to pursue merger talks because of (what seems to me) a technicality/mishandled paperwork. This is the quote that stands out to me:

 

"East Cleveland City Council, he wrote, can now turn its attention to raising money to hire Conway MacKenzie, a turnaround consulting firm, to evaluate the city"

 

So now they're gonna spend a boatload of money on this, which will probably say the same thing the free* auditor's reports have said.

 

 

http://www.ideastream.org/news/judge-wont-order-east-cleveland-city-council-to-begin-merger-talks-with-cleveland

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East Cleveland sounds like a place that if you show up in a nice suit, an impressive-sounding bio, and a slick presentation, and you threw some campaign contributions at the chairpersons of relevant council committees, that you could walk out with a fat consulting contract that requires you to deliver a BS report you copied off the web and only changed the names in it. Sadly, far too many cities, towns, counties, development authorities, etc. are like that.


"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!" -- Lady Liberty

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