Jump to content
Guest kingfish out of water

Religion


Recommended Posts

8 minutes ago, Gramarye said:

 

Lawyers might be required to disclose when the client is about to commit a crime, but absolutely not if they admit that they did commit a crime, i.e., one that is already in the past.  And I see that's probably what you meant by your final sentence regarding risks of future harm vs. confession of past harm.  But the California law in question would make them break the confessional seal even with respect to past harms.  They are not making the distinction you are.

 

 

It doesn't matter if you personally don't believe that Reconciliation makes sins go away.  The primary upshot of that is that if someone like you abuses children, you won't be confessing it to a priest under any legal regime anyway (and presumably not to a doctor or therapist either, since those are also mandatory reporters).  The issue is that there are millions of people who do believe what you do not--and what you intend to blithely interfere with because you don't care about it (maybe even specifically because you don't care, given the condescension of your "magic rituals" epithet) is sacred.  And a priest who can impose penance in accordance with the doctrines of the faith is in a better position to get an abuser to come forward of their own volition than a priest who will never again hear such things once it become known that they are mandatory reporters.

 

https://www.sacbee.com/news/politics-government/capitol-alert/article226530765.html

 

"Father John Landry of Massachusetts wrote for the National Catholic Register that a priest must honor the seal of confession 'even if he’s threatened with imprisonment, torture or death.'"

 

If this kind of interference in the confessional booth gains traction, what next?  What is China going to mandate that priests violate penitent confidence to reveal to the authorities?

 

It does matter if I don't believe, because there goes the basis for the privilege.  I agree strongly with freedom of religion-- which is why I don't like rules from someone else's becoming law.  Yes, priests may convince some abusers to confess for real.  But how many abusers have confessed and then kept on abusing, believing their guilt had been purged?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, 327 said:

 

It does matter if I don't believe, because there goes the basis for the privilege.  I agree strongly with freedom of religion-- which is why I don't like rules from someone else's becoming law.  Yes, priests may convince some abusers to confess for real.  But how many abusers have confessed and then kept on abusing, believing their guilt had been purged?

 

How many have not confessed and kept on abusing, not caring about their guilt one way or another?

 

And your concept of freedom of religion is not actual freedom of religion.  It is more the atheist twisting of it, freedom from religion.  "Oh, that sacrament is important to you?  Well, too bad, not to the rest of us, so sorry not sorry if we trample on it.  Deal with it."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Gramarye said:

 

How many have not confessed and kept on abusing, not caring about their guilt one way or another?

 

And your concept of freedom of religion is not actual freedom of religion.  It is more the atheist twisting of it, freedom from religion.  "Oh, that sacrament is important to you?  Well, too bad, not to the rest of us, so sorry not sorry if we trample on it.  Deal with it."

 

Nobody is getting trampled.  Freedom of religion necessarily includes freedom from it.  Otherwise you could be forced to recognize Protestant beliefs.  Or Muslim.  In order to practice your faith, you need to be free from theirs.  It's wrong for any one religion force its rituals onto other religions through secular law. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 minutes ago, 327 said:

 

Nobody is getting trampled.  Freedom of religion necessarily includes freedom from it.  Otherwise you could be forced to recognize Protestant beliefs.  Or Muslim.  In order to practice your faith, you need to be free from theirs.  It's wrong for any one religion force its rituals onto other religions through secular law. 

 

But that isn't what's happening.  No one is forcing anyone to go to Reconciliation.  No one is forcing you to believe in it.  But when the state imposes conditions on the free exercise of religion that make it impossible to freely exercise the religion, that isn't the religion imposing itself on the state, it's the state imposing itself on the religion.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

“I do not like your Christians. They are so unlike Christ.”-Ghandi

 

These racist a-holes don’t even know that Jesus was a brown-skinned man from the Middle East.

FB_IMG_1552225727657.jpg


"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!" -- Lady Liberty

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, he does prey....

 

More from the classless religious a$$:

 

My timeline this day is filled with the brain farts of the religious turds...

 

This pastor who says God gave us Trump is selling buckets of coffee to prepare for the apocalypse

 

Edited by KJP

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!" -- Lady Liberty

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 


"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!" -- Lady Liberty

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In reference to a certain president, there sure are a lot of "sh!thole" countries with whom we're keeping company. Praying doesn't seem to be doing much good to adress their poor ethics, lack of morality, widespread corruption and extremism. Most developed countries are not on this list....

 

 


"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!" -- Lady Liberty

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And church attendance is down. Go figure....

 

The Rise of the Catholic Right

How right-wing billionaires are attempting a hostile takeover of the U.S. Catholic Church.

https://sojo.net/magazine/march-2019/rise-catholic-right


"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!" -- Lady Liberty

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Oldie but a goodie. I doubt there will be any discussion following this 😉

 

Study finds that children raised without religion show more empathy and kindness

https://www.patheos.com/blogs/danthropology/2015/11/study-finds-that-children-raised-without-religion-show-more-empathy-and-kindness/


"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!" -- Lady Liberty

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Not sure what to make of this one yet, but The Lyceum is suing the city of South Euclid in a preemptive challenge to a recently-passed nondiscrimination ordinance:

 

https://www.cleveland.com/court-justice/2019/04/catholic-schools-lawsuit-says-south-euclid-anti-discrimination-law-violates-religious-rights.html

 

The Lyceum has been noted sporadically on UO, in part because of the exceptional number of National Merit Scholars they produce for a school their size (53 students grades 6-12):

 

 

I checked their Web site and they claim that 25% of their student body over the school's history has received National Merit honors, which I feel like needs an asterisk somewhere even granting that the school is private and uses standardized tests for admission, so they can cherry-pick.  Given the school's Catholic foundations (they are "independent" of the diocese but since that 2010 thread where me and StapHanger f.k.a. StrapHanger were talking about the school, you can just call it a Catholic school ... it's "independent" apparently because it doesn't think the Catholic diocese of Cleveland is Catholic enough), they're still limited in their student body selection to those whose parents are looking for that kind of cultural environment for their children.

 

Now they're in a bit of a kerfuffle with the city, but I really wonder where this is going.  The ordinance apparently passed more than a year ago.  The city hasn't sought to enforce it against the school in that entire time, even though a religious exemption was in the original draft and was expressly deleted at the urging of Equality Ohio and other LGBT-advocacy groups.  I get that the school wants clarity and the silence of the city in response to requests for clarification would be frustrating.  But notwithstanding that, I think the school might necessarily have trouble forcing the issue when there's uncertainty regarding applicability and when the city itself has not actively sought to punish the school for acting consistently with its beliefs in the year since the ordinance passed.

 

The fight has gotten some attention even in national niche orthodox Catholic press (https://www.crisismagazine.com/2019/a-catholic-school-stands-its-ground).

 

The complaint is here: http://www.adfmedia.org/files/TheLyceumComplaint.pdf

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I would think the city ordinance would fail given its failure to carve out the federal protections for a religious institution. It is probably the reason why the city never sought to enforce it against them anyway.

 

I would be curious if the court would take the case at this point as a matter of ripeness, since there is no aggrieved party to date.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Can someone explain to me why religious people deserve exemptions in laws against discriminatory actions?  Religion isn’t an immutable characteristic, it’s a choice.  Why should religious people have the right to discriminate in legal matters like access, housing, employment, etc. based on their self-imposed beliefs? Someone explain the logic behind this.  

Edited by jonoh81

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

^First Amendment right to association and Free Exercise of their beliefs.   Everyone has a right to exercise their beliefs in the manner they choose whether it be discriminatory or not. People have a right to associate with whomever they want and exclude who they want for social purposes and religious purposes. The state cannot compel people to violate the tenets of their beliefs.

 

It is not just religion, they could be a social club too and still be allowed to have discriminatory practices.

 

In this case, the law is pretty clear, the city's ordinance would be in violation of the schools rights. As mentioned, I feel the city knows this and has not chosen to enforce it against the school and have it out there more to hold for profit businesses accountable, in which case it is enforceable in relation to them.   I do feel the school may have a ripeness or mootness issue since they are the ones filing suit instead of the city.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, jonoh81 said:

Can someone explain to me why religious people deserve exemptions in laws against discriminatory actions?  Religion isn’t an immutable characteristic, it’s a choice.  Why should religious people have the right to discriminate in legal matters like access, housing, employment, etc. based on their self-imposed beliefs? Someone explain the logic behind this.   

 

In the nature vs. nurture dichotomy, religious beliefs are firmly in the nurture category. But I don't think they're all a choice. The more specific, situational, or complex the belief, though, the more choice-y the "belief" gets. Like employment decisions are firmly in the choice-y category.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
40 minutes ago, Robuu said:

 

In the nature vs. nurture dichotomy, religious beliefs are firmly in the nurture category. But I don't think they're all a choice. The more specific, situational, or complex the belief, though, the more choice-y the "belief" gets. Like employment decisions are firmly in the choice-y category.

 

But what if employment decisions flow from something more fundamental, more paradigmatic?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The biggest thing with employment is that there are many of the left that want to use government to take the human element out of the entire hiring process. It seems as if there is a group that feels that employees should be hired based on a score they receive based on job criteria and the employee receiving the highest score gets the job. Unfortunately, there is so much more than that and the majority of hiring is based on personality fit within the organization. So much of the hiring process can't be quantified.

 

Therefore, it is very reasonable that a Catholic school should be able to make hiring decisions based on their particular beliefs, or a country club or fraternal organization can hire or admit people who fit their beliefs or gender or race, etc.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
33 minutes ago, Gramarye said:

 

But what if employment decisions flow from something more fundamental, more paradigmatic?

 

Well, for one: it's inconsistent to use that justification when you're trying to maintain a distinction between homosexual feelings and a homosexual lifestyle.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

https://www.cnn.com/2019/06/05/us/west-virginia-bishop-bransfield-church-funds/index.html

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/a-wva-bishop-spent-millions-on-himself-and-sent-cash-gifts-to-cardinals-and-to-young-priests-he-was-accused-of-mistreating-confidential-vatican-report-says/2019/06/05/98af7ae6-7686-11e9-b3f5-5673edf2d127_story.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.6da16063eed4

 

Quote

During his 13 years as bishop in West Virginia, one of the poorest states in the nation, Bransfield spent $2.4 million in church money on travel, much of it personal, which included flying in chartered jets and staying in luxury hotels, according to the report. Bransfield and several subordinates spent an average of nearly $1,000 a month on alcohol, it says. The West Virginia diocese paid $4.6 million to renovate Bransfield’s church residence after a fire damaged a single bathroom. When Bransfield was in the chancery, an administrative building, fresh flowers were delivered daily, at a cost of about $100 a day — almost $182,000 in all. 

 


Very Stable Genius

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Rhode Island Bishop Warns Catholics To Avoid Pride Events Because Of ‘Harm To Children’

Furious critics on Twitter can’t stand the hypocrisy.

https://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/us_5cf30259e4b0e346ce7f3e36?guccounter=1


"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!" -- Lady Liberty

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

^Ah yes, a church that has spent decades (if not centuries) hiding child abuse should certainly be celebrating a "win" in which priests don't have to report known child abusers to authorities so long as the abusers admit their sins in Confession.

 

What a great win for freedom of religion.  Too bad about the children, though.

Edited by DarkandStormy

Very Stable Genius

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Commence opening of can of worms...

 

 


"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!" -- Lady Liberty

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Restore formatting

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...