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“The main reason is because God hates the U.S. military. God hates America and America is doomed,” Phelps-Roper said in a phone interview from the Topeka, Kan., church."

 

then we should probably take God's name off our money if he hates us

 

 

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Hmmm..."God hates America."  Sounds pretty similar to some other extremist religious sector.  I thought that wasn't possible though...I thought God created America and all that is good.

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^God created the devil as well. I should convert to Islam. At least the Qur'an recognizes the big bang theory (long before scientists). That's scary.

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Final respects paid to Marine

Mourners fill a Vandalia church for Lance Cpl. Maria Lauterbach.

 

By Ryan Justin Fox and Margo Rutledge Kissell

Staff Writers

Friday, February 01, 2008

 

VANDALIA — Lance Cpl. Maria Lauterbach was back home and surrounded by loved ones Thursday as hundreds of people filled St. Christopher Church to pay final respects to the slain Marine.

 

A steady stream of mourners snaked through the church during the four-hour visitation for Lauterbach and her unborn child.

 

The 20-year-old graduate of Butler High School in 2006 went missing Dec. 14 while stationed at Camp Lejeune, N.C. Her remains, and those of her unborn child, were found in January. Another Marine is suspected of raping and killing her.

 

Joannie Copeland, 39, of Dayton and Stacey Hodkey, 29, of Vandalia have watched the family grieve in the glare of national media attention.

 

"The focus needs to be on what's important – Maria and the life she led," Hodkey said.

 

 

http://www.daytondailynews.com/n/content/oh/story/news/local/2008/02/01/ddn020108Lauterbach.html

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This truly is a sad story.

 

I went to high School with Maria, and i also attended St. Chris Youth Ministry with her. Those mentioned in the article are my friends and part of my church community. Maria was a great person and a GREAT athlete. She will be missed.

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Hundreds say goodbye to Maria Lauterbach

 

By Mary McCarty and Margo Rutledge Kissell

Staff Writers

Saturday, February 02, 2008

 

VANDALIA — Hundreds of mourners prayed and wept at a funeral Mass Saturday honoring slain Marine Lance Cp. Maria Lauterbach and the unborn baby she had named Gabriel Joseph.

 

The Rev. Francis Keferl praised Lauterbach for continuing with her pregnancy even after pressing rape charges against the man now wanted in her murder, Cpl. Cesar Laurean.

 

"In the midst of very dark circumstances, she made the very tough decision to give life," he told the overflow crowd gathered at St. Christopher Catholic Church in Vandalia. "We celebrate her decision to protect Gabriel Joseph to the point of giving her own life."

 

Lauterbach, 20, a 2006 Butler High School graduate, was stationed at Camp Lejeune, N.C., when she went missing Dec. 14. Lauterbach's remains were later found in a backyard firepit in Jacksonville, N.C., where Laurean lived. Authorities believe he has fled to Mexico.

 

Dignitaries in attendance at the service included U.S. Rep. Michael Turner, R-Centerville, and Onslow County, N.C., Sheriff Ed Brown, the public face of the case during the early days of Lauterbach's disappearance.

 

Four Marines wheeled Lauterbach's casket into the sanctuary and a small silver casket was placed beside it near the altar.

 

 

http://www.daytondailynews.com/n/content/oh/story/news/local/2008/02/02/ddn020208funeralweb.html

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I went to watch the procession today. I stood across the street from St. Christopher church and held my U.S. flag blanket among about a hundred other supporters standing watch.

 

It was good to see that the police gave the Nazi church group the boot before the funeral even started. I kind of figured Vandalia police would put the hammer down fairly quickly. They do not mess around.

 

It was a huge funeral procession. I would estimate it to be almost 2 miles long. Military uniforms and flag waving was in full force. The Patriot Guard was a big help to everyone including the police by leading the procession to the Calvary Cemetery.

 

I wish the family well and I hope they capture the guy that did this.

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Well, I'm Catholic, but I don't care what other people believe in.  I feel its my own business to believe in what I want, and therefore I respect the beliefs of others.  When it comes to voting for a candidate, religion is actually the very last thing on my mind.  I find it b-s that anyone would say someone who is athiest doesn't have good morals, because there are plenty of people in my own religion locked up in jail.

 

There is one benefit of religion though that is my own opinion.  Churches in the past have really helped stabilize neighborhoods.  The church in my own neighborhood has really had an impact in keeping the blocks around it clean and safe.  Regardless of whether the people who lived nearby where members or not.  They plowed our sidewalks, provided open space for all of us to enjoy, and had activities for neighborhood children to enjoy.  As I said, you didn't have to be a member.

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Glad you did, I've been meaning to post this clip. Bill Maher's my hero.  :evil:

 

RELIGULOUS - the trailer. To be shown at all schools while learning Intelligent Design.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qB8fPJ6zds8

 

George Bush - "I believe God wants everybody to be free, that's what I believe, and thats one . . .part of my . . . foreign policy."

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There is one benefit of religion though that is my own opinion. Churches in the past have really helped stabilize neighborhoods. The church in my own neighborhood has really had an impact in keeping the blocks around it clean and safe. Regardless of whether the people who lived nearby where members or not. They plowed our sidewalks, provided open space for all of us to enjoy, and had activities for neighborhood children to enjoy. As I said, you didn't have to be a member.

 

I think that is a very good observation.  I grew up catholic, but have really grown into an agnostic.  Regardless of my lack of faith I believe churches play a vital role in instilling morals and values in children.  That is why my children will grow up in a catholic household. 

 

Religion inspires people to do good and some bad, but I think religion is vital to the development of young children.  Just remember that anything to an extreme is bad... especially religion!

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On a related note . . . or is it.

 

Guest Columnist

Optimism in Evolution

 

By OLIVIA JUDSON, Published: August 12, 2008

LONDON

 

In these arguments, evolution is treated as an abstract subject that deals with the age of the earth or how fish first flopped onto land. It’s discussed as though it were an optional, quaint and largely irrelevant part of biology. And a common consequence of the arguments is that evolution gets dropped from the curriculum entirely.

 

To read more: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/13/opinion/13judson.html?hp

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I think that is a very good observation.  I grew up catholic, but have really grown into an agnostic.  Regardless of my lack of faith I believe churches play a vital role in instilling morals and values in children.  That is why my children will grow up in a catholic household.

 

Religion inspires people to do good and some bad, but I think religion is vital to the development of young children.  Just remember that anything to an extreme is bad... especially religion!

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mvHGoDKgJQE&hl=en&fs=1

 

Not that I think that you would raise your kids like that (You said that your are Catholic and that video pertains to Evangelicals, so you all don't have to accept Jesus into your hearts), but I know that a lot of kids were raised in a religious institution similar to the one in the video, which forced them to accept Jesus into their hearts at a very early age (5+). I think that most children and teens younger than 16 are not old enough to make that type of decision, which I believe is a very BIG one. I don't believe that they realize the importance of a decision like that is.

 

And I am talking from experience. When I was about nine I went to church with my cousins and after Sunday School, all of the kids would have their own little service (led by older leaders of coarse) and every Sunday they would ask kids to close their eyes. Once everyone had their eyes shut they would then talk about the importance of accepting Jesus into your soul and how without Jesus in your soul you are doomed to eternal damnation. They would then ask those who were ready to accept Jesus into their hearts to come forward. Those kids (including me) would come forward and then would repeat a prayer that was to let Jesus into our hearts. Needless to say, none of use realized the magnitude of the decision we had just made.

 

Several years later, I began going to a different church. During the summer that church would help kids go to church camp for a week. At the camp kids would learn more about the Bible, had Bible study groups, would clean the cabins and for extra points leave a Bible passage and candy for the Snooper (a character who made sure that the rooms were up to par). We also went on hikes and up to 'Vesper Hill" where we would have the evening service. The camp was very fun and taught me a lot. However, every year that I went I realized (as many others did) that outside of camp, I didn't lead a very "Christian" life, so I would have to renew my vows to Christ (which I am pretty sure was due to the fact that I didn't understand what that decision meant).

 

As we got older, the camp topics became deeper. The year after seventh grade, my age group's topic was sex. We talked about how important it was to save sex for marriage. We were told horrific tales of people who had sex before marriage. How they contracted deadly diseases that ruined their lives. We were told that condoms were not as effective as some people would have you believe. That the majority of times the condom would break (which went against everything I was taught in health class that year) resulting in a STD or unwanted pregnancy. We were made to believe that all the people who didn't wait for marriage were basically slappers. We were told about the poor women who had abortions and the terrible lives they lead after having said abortion. We were told that masturbation was evil and only promoted sexual deviancy (Leviticus actually prohibits people from masturbating and requires you to go through a cleansing process).

 

During one Bible study, a girl in my group brought up a topic. She told us that her  mom's friend was gay and she wanted to know if he was going to hell. Our 'teacher' told her bluntly that he would. She then asked why would God create someone to be gay but send them to hell for it. The 'teacher' then told us that he was only gay because of his father's sins and that unless he changed his ways, he was going to hell.

 

What did that 'lesson' have to do with me? Well, ever since I can remember I have always known that I was different, I just didn't know that they had a name for it. In sixth grade someone started to pick on me for my feminine sounding voice (had not yet reached puberty at the age of 11/12), my large amount of girlfriends, and my lack of skills when it came to sports. So, those  things combined already made me gay. I didn't even know what gay meant, but i didn't like the way that they were using it (I later learned that this certain bully was a closeted homosexual, which most homophobes generally are).

 

By seventh grade I found out what 'gay' meant and I assumed by its horrible stigma at school that I defiantly didn't want to be gay. That year I struggled to find a girlfriend only to prove that I wasn't gay. However, no matter how hard I tried, I just couldn't feel the same for most girls as I could for guys.

 

After that church camp 'lesson' I was determined that through God, I could change. I started to be very active at my church, read the Bible everyday, and prayed to God to heal me. I ranted to my friends that they needed to turn to God or they were doomed to hell (I became the the type of religious fanatic I would grow to hate). I even started a Christian message board.

 

As I got older and as I failed to change, I began to hate myself. I fell into a type of depression, never excepting myself for who I am. To get over it, I decided to ignore it and convinced myself I was straight. I started hanging out with a very hetero acting group of boys and started to join in their deviancy. I looked at hetero porn trying to convince myself that I enjoyed as much as  my hetero friends (yes I realize that porn is looked down upon in the church). I even strated talking about girls that I liked, oh how pathetic I must have sounded.

 

Around this time I started to realize things about my church that I had never noticed before. It occurred to me that there was a certain hierarchy in the church. You had the pastor and his family (his daughter could be amazingly rude but not get reprimanded for it), then you had the church elders who were afraid of change, the families that had been at the church for a number of years and were allowed to get away with certain indiscretions, and then the new comers who had to prove to the whole congregation how 'holy' they were.

 

The frequency at which I attended church slowed down and I eventually stopped attending. Around this time something extraordinary happened, high school (At Madison Comprehensive High School we don't start our first year until sophomore year, unless, like me, you are smart enough to be a 'two-period freshman', which means for the first two periods you go to the high school and then are bused back to the Jr. High).

 

During my high school years I befriended people who weren't Christian (GASP!!). I also started to change my beliefs on peoples personal rights and freedoms and I acknowledged the hypocrisy of the church. I also stopped following the church blindly and did some research on the Bible and church in general. I learned of the books left out of the Bible, how certain 'believers' pick and choose what to condemn others for, how horrible the translations are (words that were used don't have the same meaning, etc.), certain words were added to the Bible in 1950 that have no relevance to the original text, I began questioning how could such a loving God could send people to hell for something they couldn't help (like never hearing of Jesus and the Christian religion), I realized how similar all religions are (look at Greek mythology and you will see a lot of parallels with the three major religions), and that Constantine, contrary to popular belief, wasn't a Christian and helped to create the Christian Religion by combining it with pagan beliefs in order to draw more people into the religion and to stave off a religious uprising.

 

High school also brought a lot more people asking me about my sexuality. Of coarse I was very defensive and told them that I wasn't gay and then made them feel bad for chastising me for my decision to wait until marriage (which is how I justified not wanting to be with a woman at my age).

 

By my senior year, I was close to accepting my sexuality, but I was convinced that I was just 'confused'. I also decided that I was no longer a Christian. I still believe in some type of force that connects us all. This force can't really be described so to satisfy our need for labels we name this force 'god'. As for what happens after death, I imagine that we all pay for our indiscretion but then reach a point of eternal happiness.

 

At this time I also started to hold more socially liberal views and became more accepting of others. Then, something I never would have imagined happening happened. My best friend came out to me. I was so shocked. I mean, sometimes I thought that he might be gay, but then something would happed and I would decide that he wasn't. When he blurted it out I actually thought he was joking. After the initial shock wore off, I accepted it and asked why he hadn't told me sooner, which is when he told me that during Jr. High he was put off by my religious zealousness.The following months I struggled with my sexuality and eventually accepted it and when I came out to my friends, most of them weren't surprised. lol

 

So, what did this ridiculously long reply have to do with anything? Well, I just wanted to 'show' you how ignorant and manipulative the church can be and how they use their religion to justify hate. Also, I wanted to show how certain churches and "religious" folk can cause someone to hate themselves, which can lead to an unhealthy life. I hope that everyone who raises their kids in a religious institution goes into it with an open mind and doesn't follow the church blindly.

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^You make a very good point about the church and it looks like Evangelicals fall into the 'extreme' category.  I was raised in a moderately religious household and attended Catholic schools all of my life (pre-school through college).  I was fortunate enough to go to a Catholic school that was not taught by nuns (wrist slappers).  The teachers at my school supported conversation about the Church and the many fallacies of religion.  These conversations helped me develop my own faith, which is ironically Agnostic.  I feel fortunate to grow up in a community and family that supported free choice and allowed people to question the Church and its beliefs.  I will give my children that same opportunity.

 

Unfortunately I feel like your story is much too common and a lot of work is needed to break people of their radical religious beliefs.  In religion change takes many years, but it will come!  The majority of the Catholics I know under the age of 40 support gay rights and civil unions.  Social change is coming... be patient.

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I went to a very liberal Catholic high school in St. Louis run by the most liberal order of nuns ever (yeah, that sounds like a whole lot of oxymorons, but it's true).  Our religion classes consisted of things like ethics, world religions, and even writing our own bibles.  Not even everyone who went to the school was actually Catholic.  The school is big on diversity, acceptance, and empowering women, and I think the beliefs that were "forced" upon me as a child at church and in Catholic grade school changed a lot over those four years.  My mom gets really angry with me nowadays for becoming a "Christmas and Easter Churchgoer", but the only Catholic Church I've found even remotely satisfactory in Cleveland is Gesu.  I know that my high school definitely put all of us way ahead of time in terms of the Church, so it's frustrating that I can't find anything like what I had back then.

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doc - have you tried St Peter downtown or the Community of St Malachi on W 25th? - both are known for being liberal and somewhat non-traditional.

www.historicstpeters.org

www.stmalachi.org

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doc - have you tried St Peter downtown or the Community of St Malachi on W 25th? - both are known for being liberal and somewhat non-traditional.

www.historicstpeters.org

www.stmalachi.org

 

I hadn't tried either yet.  I've only been to the cathedral since we moved to the Ave. Dist. because my conservative catholic mother was in town.  But now that I don't live in Shaker anymore, Gesu's a bit of a haul.  I'll check both out.  Thanks!

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Gesu is a jesuit parish. The Jesuits are generally open-minded and forward thinking. They were actually kicked out of the Catholic Church for about 50 years by the pope. A lot of people don't understand that they are different orders of priests in the catholic church. The training and formation is vastly different. Jesuits have about 11 years of education and training before they can become priests. They are a very intellectual bunch.

 

I've heard some very good things about St. Peter's in Cleveland. (The priest has actually married some gay couples. Of course you won't find much confirmation of that.) I also know that they have a congregation that actively works with inner city schools and neighborhoods.

 

 

By the way, I'm an agnostic.

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I'd seperate athiests and agnostics, as there is a world of difference between claiming knowledge that there is not any sort of supernatural being or force and some shade of not claiming to have knowledge about it.

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^Exactly... my Agnostic views are that I simply cannot know whether or not there is a God.  I grew up Catholic and received an engineering education.  I'm a very technical person and when I can't find proof of something it is difficult for me to believe in that thing.  But I certainly will not hold any prejudice towards someone of strong faith!  But like I've been saying, anything to an extreme is bad... belief or non-belief. 

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Gesu is a jesuit parish. The Jesuits are generally open-minded and forward thinking. They were actually kicked out of the Catholic Church for about 50 years by the pope. A lot of people don't understand that they are different orders of priests in the catholic church. The training and formation is vastly different. Jesuits have about 11 years of education and training before they can become priests. They are a very intellectual bunch.

 

I've heard some very good things about St. Peter's in Cleveland. (The priest has actually married some gay couples. Of course you won't find much confirmation of that.) I also know that they have a congregation that actively works with inner city schools and neighborhoods.

 

 

By the way, I'm an agnostic.

 

Yes, I know that they're Jesuit (guess I should've mentioned that), which is why I went there in the first place (being from St. Louis, which is like the Catholic capital of the U.S., there are a lot of Catholic high schools run by Jesuits).  I'm not a person who believes I'm going to be condemned if I don't go to church every week - I believe how I live and treat other people is what determines what kind of person I am, but I would like to find a church similar to something run by the Jesuits a little closer to downtown for when I feel like I should go to church (or when my "Did you go to church this week?" mother is in town).  I'll check out Sts. Peter and Malachi as according to everyone's suggestions.  Thanks!

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When I started work at Xavier (a Jesuit university), I expected it to be very close minded and overly religious on all fronts. I consider myself to be a Humanist, and I was surprised at the liberal topics that were discussed here: acceptance of other faiths, sexual orientations, and lifestyles (and so on). Hell, there is even a bar on campus.

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When I started work at Xavier (a Jesuit university), I expected it to be very close minded and overly religious on all fronts. I consider myself to be a Humanist, and I was surprised at the liberal topics that were discussed here: acceptance of other faiths, sexual orientations, and lifestyles (and so on). Hell, there is even a bar on campus.

 

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When I started work at Xavier (a Jesuit university), I expected it to be very close minded and overly religious on all fronts. I consider myself to be a Humanist, and I was surprised at the liberal topics that were discussed here: acceptance of other faiths, sexual orientations, and lifestyles (and so on). Hell, there is even a bar on campus.

 

Knowing the Jesuits, I'm surprised there isn't a bar inside the Jesuit residence.

 

Regarding Malachi's, there are different "churches" within that church. I don't exactly understand it, so you may want to ask about it. For example, the 10am mass' atmosphere may be very different than noon's.

 

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When I started work at Xavier (a Jesuit university), I expected it to be very close minded and overly religious on all fronts. I consider myself to be a Humanist, and I was surprised at the liberal topics that were discussed here: acceptance of other faiths, sexual orientations, and lifestyles (and so on). Hell, there is even a bar on campus.

 

Knowing the Jesuits, I'm surprised there isn't a bar inside the Jesuit residence.

 

Regarding Malachi's, there are different "churches" within that church. I don't exactly understand it, so you may want to ask about it. For example, the 10am mass' atmosphere may be very different than noon's.

 

 

Yeah, I read their 11am mass is more of a "community, lay-run parish" as opposed to the other two St. Malachi Parish masses.  Their website isn't all that descriptive (in terms of understanding how each parish within the parish operates) besides a bunch of mission statements, so I guess I'd just have to check out both.

 

By the way, for those of you who don't know, Gesu is openly cited as being a GLBT-friendly church.  Despite that I am straight, I have a high opinion of any Catholic parish that advertises that.

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I used to belong to Malachi's, so I can splain it:

At St Malachi, there is the traditional parish which originally served the Irish community since the 1800's, but in the 1970's a second parish was founded at the same site, known as the Community of St Malachi - it is a "lay-directed" "personal parish", and is very social justice oriented.  They provide a number of services to the local community, including a residential hospice for the terminally ill poor, a social service center, and a discount store called Malachi Mart.  The Community Mass is 11:00am Sunday.

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I'd separate atheists and agnostics, as there is a world of difference between claiming knowledge that there is not any sort of supernatural being or force and some shade of not claiming to have knowledge about it.

 

Atheists are people who have accepted that society can continue without a deity. Agnostics are open to the idea of a deity, but require better proof. Either way, both groups live in a world with the possibility (and probability) that there is no divine being, which is very different from other belief systems. Also, I wanted to keep the poll brief, hence no Shintoism/Confucianism/Zoroastrianism/Wicca/Unitarianism/Kingfishism

 

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I used to belong to Malachi's, so I can splain it:

At St Malachi, there is the traditional parish which originally served the Irish community since the 1800's, but in the 1970's a second parish was founded at the same site, known as the Community of St Malachi - it is a "lay-directed" "personal parish", and is very social justice oriented. They provide a number of services to the local community, including a residential hospice for the terminally ill poor, a social service center, and a discount store called Malachi Mart. The Community Mass is 11:00am Sunday.

 

So in terms of the actual mass, how is the community one different from the regular one?  I am intrigued by this.

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Atheists are people who have accepted that society can continue without a deity.

 

That seems like a pretty big generalization. I don't think that is how many atheists would categorize themselves. Some do, but not all. 

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I used to belong to Malachi's, so I can splain it:

At St Malachi, there is the traditional parish which originally served the Irish community since the 1800's, but in the 1970's a second parish was founded at the same site, known as the Community of St Malachi - it is a "lay-directed" "personal parish", and is very social justice oriented. They provide a number of services to the local community, including a residential hospice for the terminally ill poor, a social service center, and a discount store called Malachi Mart. The Community Mass is 11:00am Sunday.

 

So in terms of the actual mass, how is the community one different from the regular one? I am intrigued by this.

 

They have the same pastor, but the "parish" masses are more traditional organ masses, and the "community" has more modern worship music and even some hand-clapping (albeit by mostly white rhythm-impaired participants).   

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I used to belong to Malachi's, so I can splain it:

At St Malachi, there is the traditional parish which originally served the Irish community since the 1800's, but in the 1970's a second parish was founded at the same site, known as the Community of St Malachi - it is a "lay-directed" "personal parish", and is very social justice oriented. They provide a number of services to the local community, including a residential hospice for the terminally ill poor, a social service center, and a discount store called Malachi Mart. The Community Mass is 11:00am Sunday.

 

So in terms of the actual mass, how is the community one different from the regular one? I am intrigued by this.

 

They have the same pastor, but the "parish" masses are more traditional organ masses, and the "community" has more modern worship music and even some hand-clapping (albeit by mostly white rhythm-impaired participants).

 

I'll have to check the community out then :).  Thanks!

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^Pope, I waiting for you to chime in before posting.

 

Since you were all wondering, Cincinnati is a Latin mass lover's paradise, with at least a dozen churches still having regular Latin mass and a few in German.  If I can avoid it, I avoid going to post Vatican II mass because it's way too much of a cowtow to protestant and secular sensibilities.  The music is terrible, the whole thing never seems serious.  Combine that with the unseriousness of suburban Catholic architecture and it goes a long way toward explaining why a lot of people with Catholic upbringings don't take it seriously.  The irony is that so many Baptist and Evangelical churches operate in comically cheap-looking buildings and even strip malls yet have no trouble attracting more people, although this phenomenon is more prevalent in the south and Texas, where the streets and buildings look like Satan's soap dish.   

 

My experience in attending "non-denominational" churches was wow these people mean well but are pretty stupid.  The service is advertising, it's an event, it's cheap, it's superstitious.     

 

It was mentioned previously that Catholic priests are better educated than most protestant ministers and certainly most "preachers".  The charms of attending Latin mass are not limited to the exoticism of hearing Latin in the 21st century in a hand-built and hand-decorated and un-air conditioned building; brace yourself for a homily that might bounce from Shakespeare quotes ("who steals my purse, steals trash!") to brief discussions of Sarte, Derrida, Lacan, Deleuz, etc.  That said, I have yet to hear a priest reference or the choir cover the Velvet Underground's "Sunday Morning".               

 

   

For the poster who is an engineer, if you had spent a similar amount of time and effort studying (your) religion, you would be able to offer a more sophisticated response.  Herein lies another central problem...Catholic schools do a terrible job educating their own students about Catholicism.  How bad?  Well I remember being in 4th grade and not knowing that the Pope was Catholic.  I thought he was Jewish.  I'm no advocate of wrote memorization (say, memorizing the Bible), but I recall the religious education being pretty lousy at the Catholic school I attended, although it's tough to expect better when your 23 year-old teacher & Miami U. alum is out partying on weeknights.       

         

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