Jump to content
Guest kingfish out of water

Religion


Recommended Posts

Well, I'm Catholic, but I don't care what other people believe in.  I feel its my own business to believe in what I want, and therefore I respect the beliefs of others.  When it comes to voting for a candidate, religion is actually the very last thing on my mind.  I find it b-s that anyone would say someone who is athiest doesn't have good morals, because there are plenty of people in my own religion locked up in jail.

 

There is one benefit of religion though that is my own opinion.  Churches in the past have really helped stabilize neighborhoods.  The church in my own neighborhood has really had an impact in keeping the blocks around it clean and safe.  Regardless of whether the people who lived nearby where members or not.  They plowed our sidewalks, provided open space for all of us to enjoy, and had activities for neighborhood children to enjoy.  As I said, you didn't have to be a member.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Glad you did, I've been meaning to post this clip. Bill Maher's my hero.  :evil:

 

RELIGULOUS - the trailer. To be shown at all schools while learning Intelligent Design.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qB8fPJ6zds8

 

George Bush - "I believe God wants everybody to be free, that's what I believe, and thats one . . .part of my . . . foreign policy."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

There is one benefit of religion though that is my own opinion. Churches in the past have really helped stabilize neighborhoods. The church in my own neighborhood has really had an impact in keeping the blocks around it clean and safe. Regardless of whether the people who lived nearby where members or not. They plowed our sidewalks, provided open space for all of us to enjoy, and had activities for neighborhood children to enjoy. As I said, you didn't have to be a member.

 

I think that is a very good observation.  I grew up catholic, but have really grown into an agnostic.  Regardless of my lack of faith I believe churches play a vital role in instilling morals and values in children.  That is why my children will grow up in a catholic household. 

 

Religion inspires people to do good and some bad, but I think religion is vital to the development of young children.  Just remember that anything to an extreme is bad... especially religion!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

On a related note . . . or is it.

 

Guest Columnist

Optimism in Evolution

 

By OLIVIA JUDSON, Published: August 12, 2008

LONDON

 

In these arguments, evolution is treated as an abstract subject that deals with the age of the earth or how fish first flopped onto land. It’s discussed as though it were an optional, quaint and largely irrelevant part of biology. And a common consequence of the arguments is that evolution gets dropped from the curriculum entirely.

 

To read more: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/13/opinion/13judson.html?hp

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I think that is a very good observation.  I grew up catholic, but have really grown into an agnostic.  Regardless of my lack of faith I believe churches play a vital role in instilling morals and values in children.  That is why my children will grow up in a catholic household.

 

Religion inspires people to do good and some bad, but I think religion is vital to the development of young children.  Just remember that anything to an extreme is bad... especially religion!

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mvHGoDKgJQE&hl=en&fs=1

 

Not that I think that you would raise your kids like that (You said that your are Catholic and that video pertains to Evangelicals, so you all don't have to accept Jesus into your hearts), but I know that a lot of kids were raised in a religious institution similar to the one in the video, which forced them to accept Jesus into their hearts at a very early age (5+). I think that most children and teens younger than 16 are not old enough to make that type of decision, which I believe is a very BIG one. I don't believe that they realize the importance of a decision like that is.

 

And I am talking from experience. When I was about nine I went to church with my cousins and after Sunday School, all of the kids would have their own little service (led by older leaders of coarse) and every Sunday they would ask kids to close their eyes. Once everyone had their eyes shut they would then talk about the importance of accepting Jesus into your soul and how without Jesus in your soul you are doomed to eternal damnation. They would then ask those who were ready to accept Jesus into their hearts to come forward. Those kids (including me) would come forward and then would repeat a prayer that was to let Jesus into our hearts. Needless to say, none of use realized the magnitude of the decision we had just made.

 

Several years later, I began going to a different church. During the summer that church would help kids go to church camp for a week. At the camp kids would learn more about the Bible, had Bible study groups, would clean the cabins and for extra points leave a Bible passage and candy for the Snooper (a character who made sure that the rooms were up to par). We also went on hikes and up to 'Vesper Hill" where we would have the evening service. The camp was very fun and taught me a lot. However, every year that I went I realized (as many others did) that outside of camp, I didn't lead a very "Christian" life, so I would have to renew my vows to Christ (which I am pretty sure was due to the fact that I didn't understand what that decision meant).

 

As we got older, the camp topics became deeper. The year after seventh grade, my age group's topic was sex. We talked about how important it was to save sex for marriage. We were told horrific tales of people who had sex before marriage. How they contracted deadly diseases that ruined their lives. We were told that condoms were not as effective as some people would have you believe. That the majority of times the condom would break (which went against everything I was taught in health class that year) resulting in a STD or unwanted pregnancy. We were made to believe that all the people who didn't wait for marriage were basically slappers. We were told about the poor women who had abortions and the terrible lives they lead after having said abortion. We were told that masturbation was evil and only promoted sexual deviancy (Leviticus actually prohibits people from masturbating and requires you to go through a cleansing process).

 

During one Bible study, a girl in my group brought up a topic. She told us that her  mom's friend was gay and she wanted to know if he was going to hell. Our 'teacher' told her bluntly that he would. She then asked why would God create someone to be gay but send them to hell for it. The 'teacher' then told us that he was only gay because of his father's sins and that unless he changed his ways, he was going to hell.

 

What did that 'lesson' have to do with me? Well, ever since I can remember I have always known that I was different, I just didn't know that they had a name for it. In sixth grade someone started to pick on me for my feminine sounding voice (had not yet reached puberty at the age of 11/12), my large amount of girlfriends, and my lack of skills when it came to sports. So, those  things combined already made me gay. I didn't even know what gay meant, but i didn't like the way that they were using it (I later learned that this certain bully was a closeted homosexual, which most homophobes generally are).

 

By seventh grade I found out what 'gay' meant and I assumed by its horrible stigma at school that I defiantly didn't want to be gay. That year I struggled to find a girlfriend only to prove that I wasn't gay. However, no matter how hard I tried, I just couldn't feel the same for most girls as I could for guys.

 

After that church camp 'lesson' I was determined that through God, I could change. I started to be very active at my church, read the Bible everyday, and prayed to God to heal me. I ranted to my friends that they needed to turn to God or they were doomed to hell (I became the the type of religious fanatic I would grow to hate). I even started a Christian message board.

 

As I got older and as I failed to change, I began to hate myself. I fell into a type of depression, never excepting myself for who I am. To get over it, I decided to ignore it and convinced myself I was straight. I started hanging out with a very hetero acting group of boys and started to join in their deviancy. I looked at hetero porn trying to convince myself that I enjoyed as much as  my hetero friends (yes I realize that porn is looked down upon in the church). I even strated talking about girls that I liked, oh how pathetic I must have sounded.

 

Around this time I started to realize things about my church that I had never noticed before. It occurred to me that there was a certain hierarchy in the church. You had the pastor and his family (his daughter could be amazingly rude but not get reprimanded for it), then you had the church elders who were afraid of change, the families that had been at the church for a number of years and were allowed to get away with certain indiscretions, and then the new comers who had to prove to the whole congregation how 'holy' they were.

 

The frequency at which I attended church slowed down and I eventually stopped attending. Around this time something extraordinary happened, high school (At Madison Comprehensive High School we don't start our first year until sophomore year, unless, like me, you are smart enough to be a 'two-period freshman', which means for the first two periods you go to the high school and then are bused back to the Jr. High).

 

During my high school years I befriended people who weren't Christian (GASP!!). I also started to change my beliefs on peoples personal rights and freedoms and I acknowledged the hypocrisy of the church. I also stopped following the church blindly and did some research on the Bible and church in general. I learned of the books left out of the Bible, how certain 'believers' pick and choose what to condemn others for, how horrible the translations are (words that were used don't have the same meaning, etc.), certain words were added to the Bible in 1950 that have no relevance to the original text, I began questioning how could such a loving God could send people to hell for something they couldn't help (like never hearing of Jesus and the Christian religion), I realized how similar all religions are (look at Greek mythology and you will see a lot of parallels with the three major religions), and that Constantine, contrary to popular belief, wasn't a Christian and helped to create the Christian Religion by combining it with pagan beliefs in order to draw more people into the religion and to stave off a religious uprising.

 

High school also brought a lot more people asking me about my sexuality. Of coarse I was very defensive and told them that I wasn't gay and then made them feel bad for chastising me for my decision to wait until marriage (which is how I justified not wanting to be with a woman at my age).

 

By my senior year, I was close to accepting my sexuality, but I was convinced that I was just 'confused'. I also decided that I was no longer a Christian. I still believe in some type of force that connects us all. This force can't really be described so to satisfy our need for labels we name this force 'god'. As for what happens after death, I imagine that we all pay for our indiscretion but then reach a point of eternal happiness.

 

At this time I also started to hold more socially liberal views and became more accepting of others. Then, something I never would have imagined happening happened. My best friend came out to me. I was so shocked. I mean, sometimes I thought that he might be gay, but then something would happed and I would decide that he wasn't. When he blurted it out I actually thought he was joking. After the initial shock wore off, I accepted it and asked why he hadn't told me sooner, which is when he told me that during Jr. High he was put off by my religious zealousness.The following months I struggled with my sexuality and eventually accepted it and when I came out to my friends, most of them weren't surprised. lol

 

So, what did this ridiculously long reply have to do with anything? Well, I just wanted to 'show' you how ignorant and manipulative the church can be and how they use their religion to justify hate. Also, I wanted to show how certain churches and "religious" folk can cause someone to hate themselves, which can lead to an unhealthy life. I hope that everyone who raises their kids in a religious institution goes into it with an open mind and doesn't follow the church blindly.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

^You make a very good point about the church and it looks like Evangelicals fall into the 'extreme' category.  I was raised in a moderately religious household and attended Catholic schools all of my life (pre-school through college).  I was fortunate enough to go to a Catholic school that was not taught by nuns (wrist slappers).  The teachers at my school supported conversation about the Church and the many fallacies of religion.  These conversations helped me develop my own faith, which is ironically Agnostic.  I feel fortunate to grow up in a community and family that supported free choice and allowed people to question the Church and its beliefs.  I will give my children that same opportunity.

 

Unfortunately I feel like your story is much too common and a lot of work is needed to break people of their radical religious beliefs.  In religion change takes many years, but it will come!  The majority of the Catholics I know under the age of 40 support gay rights and civil unions.  Social change is coming... be patient.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I went to a very liberal Catholic high school in St. Louis run by the most liberal order of nuns ever (yeah, that sounds like a whole lot of oxymorons, but it's true).  Our religion classes consisted of things like ethics, world religions, and even writing our own bibles.  Not even everyone who went to the school was actually Catholic.  The school is big on diversity, acceptance, and empowering women, and I think the beliefs that were "forced" upon me as a child at church and in Catholic grade school changed a lot over those four years.  My mom gets really angry with me nowadays for becoming a "Christmas and Easter Churchgoer", but the only Catholic Church I've found even remotely satisfactory in Cleveland is Gesu.  I know that my high school definitely put all of us way ahead of time in terms of the Church, so it's frustrating that I can't find anything like what I had back then.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

doc - have you tried St Peter downtown or the Community of St Malachi on W 25th? - both are known for being liberal and somewhat non-traditional.

www.historicstpeters.org

www.stmalachi.org

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

doc - have you tried St Peter downtown or the Community of St Malachi on W 25th? - both are known for being liberal and somewhat non-traditional.

www.historicstpeters.org

www.stmalachi.org

 

I hadn't tried either yet.  I've only been to the cathedral since we moved to the Ave. Dist. because my conservative catholic mother was in town.  But now that I don't live in Shaker anymore, Gesu's a bit of a haul.  I'll check both out.  Thanks!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Gesu is a jesuit parish. The Jesuits are generally open-minded and forward thinking. They were actually kicked out of the Catholic Church for about 50 years by the pope. A lot of people don't understand that they are different orders of priests in the catholic church. The training and formation is vastly different. Jesuits have about 11 years of education and training before they can become priests. They are a very intellectual bunch.

 

I've heard some very good things about St. Peter's in Cleveland. (The priest has actually married some gay couples. Of course you won't find much confirmation of that.) I also know that they have a congregation that actively works with inner city schools and neighborhoods.

 

 

By the way, I'm an agnostic.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'd seperate athiests and agnostics, as there is a world of difference between claiming knowledge that there is not any sort of supernatural being or force and some shade of not claiming to have knowledge about it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

^Exactly... my Agnostic views are that I simply cannot know whether or not there is a God.  I grew up Catholic and received an engineering education.  I'm a very technical person and when I can't find proof of something it is difficult for me to believe in that thing.  But I certainly will not hold any prejudice towards someone of strong faith!  But like I've been saying, anything to an extreme is bad... belief or non-belief. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Gesu is a jesuit parish. The Jesuits are generally open-minded and forward thinking. They were actually kicked out of the Catholic Church for about 50 years by the pope. A lot of people don't understand that they are different orders of priests in the catholic church. The training and formation is vastly different. Jesuits have about 11 years of education and training before they can become priests. They are a very intellectual bunch.

 

I've heard some very good things about St. Peter's in Cleveland. (The priest has actually married some gay couples. Of course you won't find much confirmation of that.) I also know that they have a congregation that actively works with inner city schools and neighborhoods.

 

 

By the way, I'm an agnostic.

 

Yes, I know that they're Jesuit (guess I should've mentioned that), which is why I went there in the first place (being from St. Louis, which is like the Catholic capital of the U.S., there are a lot of Catholic high schools run by Jesuits).  I'm not a person who believes I'm going to be condemned if I don't go to church every week - I believe how I live and treat other people is what determines what kind of person I am, but I would like to find a church similar to something run by the Jesuits a little closer to downtown for when I feel like I should go to church (or when my "Did you go to church this week?" mother is in town).  I'll check out Sts. Peter and Malachi as according to everyone's suggestions.  Thanks!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

When I started work at Xavier (a Jesuit university), I expected it to be very close minded and overly religious on all fronts. I consider myself to be a Humanist, and I was surprised at the liberal topics that were discussed here: acceptance of other faiths, sexual orientations, and lifestyles (and so on). Hell, there is even a bar on campus.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

When I started work at Xavier (a Jesuit university), I expected it to be very close minded and overly religious on all fronts. I consider myself to be a Humanist, and I was surprised at the liberal topics that were discussed here: acceptance of other faiths, sexual orientations, and lifestyles (and so on). Hell, there is even a bar on campus.

 

logo.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

When I started work at Xavier (a Jesuit university), I expected it to be very close minded and overly religious on all fronts. I consider myself to be a Humanist, and I was surprised at the liberal topics that were discussed here: acceptance of other faiths, sexual orientations, and lifestyles (and so on). Hell, there is even a bar on campus.

 

Knowing the Jesuits, I'm surprised there isn't a bar inside the Jesuit residence.

 

Regarding Malachi's, there are different "churches" within that church. I don't exactly understand it, so you may want to ask about it. For example, the 10am mass' atmosphere may be very different than noon's.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

When I started work at Xavier (a Jesuit university), I expected it to be very close minded and overly religious on all fronts. I consider myself to be a Humanist, and I was surprised at the liberal topics that were discussed here: acceptance of other faiths, sexual orientations, and lifestyles (and so on). Hell, there is even a bar on campus.

 

Knowing the Jesuits, I'm surprised there isn't a bar inside the Jesuit residence.

 

Regarding Malachi's, there are different "churches" within that church. I don't exactly understand it, so you may want to ask about it. For example, the 10am mass' atmosphere may be very different than noon's.

 

 

Yeah, I read their 11am mass is more of a "community, lay-run parish" as opposed to the other two St. Malachi Parish masses.  Their website isn't all that descriptive (in terms of understanding how each parish within the parish operates) besides a bunch of mission statements, so I guess I'd just have to check out both.

 

By the way, for those of you who don't know, Gesu is openly cited as being a GLBT-friendly church.  Despite that I am straight, I have a high opinion of any Catholic parish that advertises that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I used to belong to Malachi's, so I can splain it:

At St Malachi, there is the traditional parish which originally served the Irish community since the 1800's, but in the 1970's a second parish was founded at the same site, known as the Community of St Malachi - it is a "lay-directed" "personal parish", and is very social justice oriented.  They provide a number of services to the local community, including a residential hospice for the terminally ill poor, a social service center, and a discount store called Malachi Mart.  The Community Mass is 11:00am Sunday.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'd separate atheists and agnostics, as there is a world of difference between claiming knowledge that there is not any sort of supernatural being or force and some shade of not claiming to have knowledge about it.

 

Atheists are people who have accepted that society can continue without a deity. Agnostics are open to the idea of a deity, but require better proof. Either way, both groups live in a world with the possibility (and probability) that there is no divine being, which is very different from other belief systems. Also, I wanted to keep the poll brief, hence no Shintoism/Confucianism/Zoroastrianism/Wicca/Unitarianism/Kingfishism

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I used to belong to Malachi's, so I can splain it:

At St Malachi, there is the traditional parish which originally served the Irish community since the 1800's, but in the 1970's a second parish was founded at the same site, known as the Community of St Malachi - it is a "lay-directed" "personal parish", and is very social justice oriented. They provide a number of services to the local community, including a residential hospice for the terminally ill poor, a social service center, and a discount store called Malachi Mart. The Community Mass is 11:00am Sunday.

 

So in terms of the actual mass, how is the community one different from the regular one?  I am intrigued by this.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Atheists are people who have accepted that society can continue without a deity.

 

That seems like a pretty big generalization. I don't think that is how many atheists would categorize themselves. Some do, but not all. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I used to belong to Malachi's, so I can splain it:

At St Malachi, there is the traditional parish which originally served the Irish community since the 1800's, but in the 1970's a second parish was founded at the same site, known as the Community of St Malachi - it is a "lay-directed" "personal parish", and is very social justice oriented. They provide a number of services to the local community, including a residential hospice for the terminally ill poor, a social service center, and a discount store called Malachi Mart. The Community Mass is 11:00am Sunday.

 

So in terms of the actual mass, how is the community one different from the regular one? I am intrigued by this.

 

They have the same pastor, but the "parish" masses are more traditional organ masses, and the "community" has more modern worship music and even some hand-clapping (albeit by mostly white rhythm-impaired participants).   

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I used to belong to Malachi's, so I can splain it:

At St Malachi, there is the traditional parish which originally served the Irish community since the 1800's, but in the 1970's a second parish was founded at the same site, known as the Community of St Malachi - it is a "lay-directed" "personal parish", and is very social justice oriented. They provide a number of services to the local community, including a residential hospice for the terminally ill poor, a social service center, and a discount store called Malachi Mart. The Community Mass is 11:00am Sunday.

 

So in terms of the actual mass, how is the community one different from the regular one? I am intrigued by this.

 

They have the same pastor, but the "parish" masses are more traditional organ masses, and the "community" has more modern worship music and even some hand-clapping (albeit by mostly white rhythm-impaired participants).

 

I'll have to check the community out then :).  Thanks!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

^Pope, I waiting for you to chime in before posting.

 

Since you were all wondering, Cincinnati is a Latin mass lover's paradise, with at least a dozen churches still having regular Latin mass and a few in German.  If I can avoid it, I avoid going to post Vatican II mass because it's way too much of a cowtow to protestant and secular sensibilities.  The music is terrible, the whole thing never seems serious.  Combine that with the unseriousness of suburban Catholic architecture and it goes a long way toward explaining why a lot of people with Catholic upbringings don't take it seriously.  The irony is that so many Baptist and Evangelical churches operate in comically cheap-looking buildings and even strip malls yet have no trouble attracting more people, although this phenomenon is more prevalent in the south and Texas, where the streets and buildings look like Satan's soap dish.   

 

My experience in attending "non-denominational" churches was wow these people mean well but are pretty stupid.  The service is advertising, it's an event, it's cheap, it's superstitious.     

 

It was mentioned previously that Catholic priests are better educated than most protestant ministers and certainly most "preachers".  The charms of attending Latin mass are not limited to the exoticism of hearing Latin in the 21st century in a hand-built and hand-decorated and un-air conditioned building; brace yourself for a homily that might bounce from Shakespeare quotes ("who steals my purse, steals trash!") to brief discussions of Sarte, Derrida, Lacan, Deleuz, etc.  That said, I have yet to hear a priest reference or the choir cover the Velvet Underground's "Sunday Morning".               

 

   

For the poster who is an engineer, if you had spent a similar amount of time and effort studying (your) religion, you would be able to offer a more sophisticated response.  Herein lies another central problem...Catholic schools do a terrible job educating their own students about Catholicism.  How bad?  Well I remember being in 4th grade and not knowing that the Pope was Catholic.  I thought he was Jewish.  I'm no advocate of wrote memorization (say, memorizing the Bible), but I recall the religious education being pretty lousy at the Catholic school I attended, although it's tough to expect better when your 23 year-old teacher & Miami U. alum is out partying on weeknights.       

         

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

For the poster who is an engineer, if you had spent a similar amount of time and effort studying (your) religion, you would be able to offer a more sophisticated response.

 

Are you referring to me?  What unsophisticated response are you talking about? 

 

I've spent 17 years in Catholic schools (K thru college) and the I found the Catholic religion to be heavily faith based (obviously) something that I, as a technical person, struggle with because very little of the religion rests on fact.  This is what has led to my mostly agnostic views as a young adult.  That's all I'm trying to say.  What do you expect me to learn in all my years of Catholic education?  Almost everything that is taught regarding the Catholic faith are based on 'stories' from the Bible.  I was taught how to be a good person in this World and that's all that matters.  True belief in these 'stories' is the chief difference between us it seems.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Since you were all wondering, Cincinnati is a Latin mass lover's paradise, with at least a dozen churches still having regular Latin mass and a few in German.  If I can avoid it, I avoid going to post Vatican II mass because it's way too much of a cowtow to protestant and secular sensibilities.  The music is terrible, the whole thing never seems serious.  Combine that with the unseriousness of suburban Catholic architecture and it goes a long way toward explaining why a lot of people with Catholic upbringings don't take it seriously.  The irony is that so many Baptist and Evangelical churches operate in comically cheap-looking buildings and even strip malls yet have no trouble attracting more people, although this phenomenon is more prevalent in the south and Texas, where the streets and buildings look like Satan's soap dish.

 

I have to ask: when was the first time you ever attended a Latin mass?  I suspect that your parents didn't take you to a Latin Mass service regularly when you were growing up.  The only one I ever knew of when I was growing up was the one that was held at Old St. Mary's, though I never attended it.  I could be hearing you incorrectly, but you sound nostalgic for something (I suspect) you never experienced.

 

I have a friend who is in seminary (for the Dominicans, up at St. Gertrude in Madiera) who holds a similar opinion of the Latin Mass.  He attend St. George as a kid, and I'm pretty sure that he wasn't attending a Tridentine mass, so I found his opinion to be sort of silly.  As a kid, growing up Catholic (though attending Cincinnati Public Schools and going to CCD) I knew church was serious because that was the feeling you got when you were there; there was also a lot of ceremony and excitement around my first communion.  I don't feel like the presence of Latin would have added to that at any time, though it may have made the three years (7th, 8th and 9th grades) that I had to take Latin slightly more interesting.

 

As for lousy religious education, let us not forget that the Latin Mass is the Tridentine Mass, has existed only since the Council of Trent (hence the word 'Tridentine') since 1570.  I learned this in European History AP class in my senior year at Walnut Hills High School, but I remember it because I think right and accurate knowledge of the history of our culture is not only useful but interesting and worth it for its own sake.  The worst thing about the current culture's 'interest' in religion is, in my opinion, that anyone who tries to engage in a discussion of religion on an intellectual or historical basis is looked on with more disdain than the most heretical disbeliever, because if it's not emotional and you can't feel it than its not 'true'.  No interest whatsoever in objectivity.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

>I have to ask: when was the first time you ever attended a Latin mass?  I suspect that your parents didn't take you to a Latin Mass service regularly when you were growing up.  The only one I ever knew of when I was growing up was the one that was held at Old St. Mary's, though I never attended it.  I could be hearing you incorrectly, but you sound nostalgic for something (I suspect) you never experienced.

 

I went to St. Monica's latin mass a few times as a kid, probably first around age 10 or 11, also Sacred Heart on Marshall Ave. (the church I-75 almost hits, and actually there's a lot of outside street noise in that church).  I actually don't recall St. Peter-in-Chains having latin mass but I went there a few times a year (and there was zero street noise).  I have only been to Old St. Mary's for one wedding and that's it, I didn't even know it had latin mass.  I did unfortunately go to mass roughly 1,500 times at a dreadful energy crisis church built in 1978 as a replacement for one built around 1880 (the old one was demolished) which was central to my thoughts about architecture, and I was very interested in buildings, streetscapes, traffic planning, etc. as a kid.  At some point somebody produced some high quality prints of a painting of the old church, and it seemed everyone had that print framed in their house.  Nobody had a photo or print of the new church.  This thought was reinforced by my high school having abandoned its original downtown location, where it had been founded in 1831, and its adjacent namesake 1860's-era church in 1960 for a 1960's suburb that allowed for a big parking lot.  They finally got around to building a chapel adjacent to the school around 2001 and it's one of the most hideous pieces of religious architecture I'm aware of.   

 

This post is being cut short due to me having to leave and do something.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

^ -- And we have a St X man.

 

I'm curious what parish you attended as a kid, it sounds positively awful. And I say this having grown up in Delhi and going to St Dominic. To its credit, STD at least has a traditional lay-out (steeple, alter in front, none of this round church nonsense). The deal breaker is the tan/orange interior, at least it made me appreciate the older parishes even more. Some favorites - St Theresa, Holy Family, St Peter in Chains, the Basillica in Covington, St X downtown.

 

As far as Jesuit religious architecture, Bellarmine Chapel at XU is pretty crappy too. It has a real protestant feeling to it, add in a weird slopey roof.....crap

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I know this isn't an independent church per se, but if anyone loves old church architecture, I highly reccomend going into the Chapel at Summit Country Day in Hyde Park.  Absolutely stunning alter area.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As far as Jesuit religious architecture, Bellarmine Chapel at XU is pretty crappy too. It has a real protestant feeling to it, add in a weird slopey roof.....crap

 

Interesting comment.  I attended some services and spent much time in Bellarmine growing up.  I always thought it was unattractive then.  However, I will give whoever designed it credit for at least attempting to do something.  In my architectural opinion, the designer of Bellarmine was trying to do something; I don't know what, may Ronchamps a la Cincinnati, but you couldn't go into the sanctuary and not absorb intent.

 

On the other hand, people familiar with the architecture of the Archdiocese of Cincinnati will be familiar with the name of Edward Schulte.  I've spent much time in two Schulte designed churches, Christ the King in Mt. Lookout and St. Gertrude in Madiera.  While these churches are both more grandiose in style and building material than Bellarmine, I don't really understand the point of them.  In both instances Schulte takes the familiar basilica style layout but removes one of the aisle and transcepts.  It is utterly bizarre.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The oddest catholic church I went to was in Fairfield California (Bay Area).  It was a gold geodesic dome.  And it had a very hold-hands-and-sing-kumbaya type of Mass.  Vey new-agey.  I was unfomfortable.

 

They did have stations of the cross though, one the structural supports for the geodesic dome.

 

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Almost half of the forum is Christian. As an agnostic person, I'm wondering what Christianity does for you all personally. This is a serious question; not sarcastic or condescending.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Apropos of this subject, I'm currently reading God Is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything by Christopher Hitchens.

 

http://www.amazon.com/God-Not-Great-Religion-Everything/dp/0446579807/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1221097116&sr=1-1

 

Brilliant book. Obviously the product of many a religious debate, the author has crack knowledge of various religious doctrines and the historical circumstances surrounding them. With just enough sarcasm to make what might be otherwise dry material fun to read.

 

His basic premise is that organized religion has so much evil to answer for, that society would be better off at this point without it, and that any benefits it claims credit for would most likely be carried on by society regardless.

 

Good people need no justification for their behavior

 

Bad people will always manufacture justification for theirs.

 

For the record, I'm agnostic.

"All I know is that I know Nothing" - Socrates

 

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Almost half of the forum is Christian. As an agnostic person, I'm wondering what Christianity does for you all personally. This is a serious question; not sarcastic or condescending.

 

I'm agnostic as well, but I've had a lot of friends/acquaintances who had greatly improved the quality of their lives (and those around them) because of religion. It gives them focus. It gives them guidance in work, family life, etc. Personally, I find that by training for marathons and by watching my 3 yr-old son mature. To each his own.

 

Then there are lots of liberal, social justice-based religious groups who focus much more on how to change the world through democratic means than by spreading the word of God . These groups are the antithesis of the religious right. Ever read about the liberation theology movements of latin america in the 70s and 80s? That quickly humbles almost any reader.

 

Actually, I'm surprised by the level of ignorance and close-mindedness that I've seen on this thread. Sure it is easy to pick apart the conservative crazies, but there is a lot more out there that is being ignored. The more purely anti-religious someone is, the more that their mindset reminds me of a staunchly conservative and close-minded person.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

For the record, I'm agnostic.

"All I know is that I know Nothing" - Socrates

 

First off: The above is not a quote from Socrates, as Socrates never wrote anything, and therefore can not be quoted.  Plato wrote dialogues in which Socrates was the main character (Xenophon did as well, and their may have been others) but I don't think that the above "quote" is a quote from a Platonic or a Xenophonic dialogue.  It is probably a paraphrase at best, and not a very accurate one.  In a Plato's dialogues, Socrates does say he knows things, specifically that he knows what he loves, which is one of the reasons we have the word philosophy, which means 'love of wisdom'.

 

Secondly, "All I know is that I know Nothing" is a clear and obvious tautology.  If you know nothing, then you know nothing.  If you know that you know nothing, then you know something, and that thing you know is that you don't understand anything.  It is impossible to understand nothing while at the same time realizing that you understand that.

 

Apropos of this subject, I'm currently reading God Is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything by Christopher Hitchens.

 

http://www.amazon.com/God-Not-Great-Religion-Everything/dp/0446579807/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1221097116&sr=1-1

 

Brilliant book. Obviously the product of many a religious debate, the author has crack knowledge of various religious doctrines and the historical circumstances surrounding them. With just enough sarcasm to make what might be otherwise dry material fun to read.

 

His basic premise is that organized religion has so much evil to answer for, that society would be better off at this point without it, and that any benefits it claims credit for would most likely be carried on by society regardless.

 

Good people need no justification for their behavior

 

Bad people will always manufacture justification for theirs.

 

Hitchens is a good writer, and a great polemicist, but his book doesn't add anything to the body of knowledge we have about religion, philosophy, epistemology, history, or culture.  If you want to read a book that directly attacks faith, and by faith I mean the human tendency to assume the future experience will be similar or the same as past experience (i.e. the tendency to believe in and plan your actions in lieu of experiences you haven't had and only assume will you have), you should read David Hume's A Treatise on Human Nature.  Once you are done with that, read Immanuel Kant's refutation of Hume, Critique of Pure Reason.  Actually, get a couple of friends to read it with you, preferably including one who's read it before, because it is written in a terribly ponderous style.  Nevertheless, it is one of the greatest and most important books ever written.

 

And it may help you in some of your misguided aphorisms, particularly the one that "Good people need no justification for their actions.  Bad people will always manufacture justification for theirs."  This notion is arguably a religious one, in the sense  that it certainly isn't scientific.  If a person is capable of moral choice, then they are capable of both morality and immorality (i.e. good and bad).  Therefore, the only objective way to tell if they have made a moral choice or an immoral one, is through some objective criteria of their actions, and not some sort of peering into their soul to tell whether they are truly good or bad, which humans are incapable of doing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

>Chapel at Summit Country Day in Hyde Park

 

I went there once on a school day (long story) when I was in 5th grade.  The Summit kids were quick to boast that it had been in some movie.  Great example of how movies validate anything they touch.  But at the same time I don't expect any energy crisis churches to be cast for any movies now or in the future.   

 

Thank you 1978:

100_0146.jpg

 

 

 

>I'm wondering what Christianity does for you all personally

 

One thing I was thinking about recently was how going to a school like I did that butted directly with the parish cemetery added a significant dimension to growing up.  Not only did we walk next to the cemetery every day on our way to the playground (the church parking lot, btw), there were funerals 2-3 times a week.  If you were an altar boy, you got out of class occasionally to do funerals, which was odd because on one hand you were glad to get out of class but on the other hand you felt kind of awkward at a stranger's funeral.  One time a kid in high school on my street shot himself and the burial was visible from where I was sitting in class, and I thought it odd at the time that I was roughly the same distance from the burial as I was from the actual incident but had nothing to do with either.  Also, the oldest (from the middle and late 1800's) and most interesting tombstones were the closest ones to the school and the cemetery grew not unlike a city with progressively less interesting and more obviously machined tombstones as it fanned away.  Every 2 or 3 years some teenagers would vandalize it and one time when I had just turned 16 I almost knocked one of them over when I was backing my dad's rear-wheel drive car up in the snow.  The other thing was that only a few classrooms faced the cemetery, but the church bells could be heard everywhere and I remember thinking a lot about how the same bell could create different moods depending on how it was rung.  Sort of like how gunfire from the same gun can be for practice, for hunting, aggressive, defensive, or celebratory.  However the old bell, which was taken from the old church, was silenced about 5 years ago and replaced by an electronic "bell" which many would more obviously recognize as being a sold state stereo amp, a cheesy sound module, and some speakers up in the bell tower.  I'd love to sit in on one of the pitches given by an electronic bell salesman. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

^My uncle was a Catholic priest and I recall him proudly showing off the remote control for the new electronic bell tower a few years ago - I thought it was about as tacky as those old car horns that could play anything from the "General Lee" horn to the Notre Dame fight song.  The church I grew up attending still had the real bells in its tower, with the ropes to ring them with - one of the altar boy jobs was pealing the bells at the appropriate somber pace for a funeral, but it was much more fun to ring the hell out of them after a wedding (or after midnight Mass to wake up all the neighborhood heathens!).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm sorry, if we going to start naming the ugly Catholic churches of Cincinnati, Nativity in PRidge wins by a landslide. It is supposed to resemble a crown. It has leaked since they opened it in the late 60s. It has a crappy abstract altar with small abstract windows. It would work better as a gym. Sadly the parish turned the old church into the gym (and the cafetaria and the kindergarten rooms were all chapels).

 

A slight addendum to the Latin Mass discussion, Old Saint Mary's does the novus ordo in Latin rather than the Tridentine Mass. Sacred Heart does the Tridentine. The Cathedral Basilica in NKY does the Tridentine Mass at various times.

 

St. X downtown is a decent church, though the 80s paint job is unfortunate.

 

The Mass was in Latin prior to Trent, but the Church regularized the service and made it slightly more friendly to the folks in the pews - its all relative. This is when the altar rail comes into vogue replacing the walls that made Catholic churches more like Eastern Orthodox ones.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I was talking with someone about a grant proposal (we'd be collaborating), asking him if he had a 10-page writing sample suitable for the application.  Well, here's the list of papers he's written so far in grad school, but I don't think any of them will work:

 

 

* Paradox and mystery in the religious epistemology of Henri de Lubac (in progress)

* The influence of the Kierkegaardian concept of "repetition" on the Trinitarian theology of Karl Barth

* The origins and development of the Holy Thursday Offertory chant "Ubi caritas"

* Memory and hope in Gregory of Nyssa's "De anima et resurrectione"

* Exegesis of Mt 25:1-13 (parable of the wise and foolish virgins)

* The religious sociology of Franz Rosenzweig

* John Chrysostom's "grammar of assent" in the Homilies on John's Gospel

* Exegesis of Hebrews 9:11-22 (the sacrifice of Christ the High Priest)

 

 

I don't know who any of these dudes are, which shows the incredible depth of a 2,000 year-old institution.  Yet everyone seems to think they know everything about Christianity and its institutions.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Come on Jmech those are some big name dudes save the douche-nozzle of course. Barth is a little too prot for my tastes.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yikes!

 

I love old churches you find in the inner city. There's some real gems in OTR and downtown Cinci. I used to go to St. Louis in d/t and St. Lawrence in P-Hill; both are beautiful.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...