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This thread really began over in a thread devoted to politics (http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,14859.msg250701.html#new). So, to focus on the other topic you shouldn't broach in the presence of alcohol, here it goes, the paragraph that sent everything to hell:

 

Thankfully, there's no religious litmus test for US citizenship, and this is by design. I find Americans' distaste for Atheism shameful, and contrary to both the written word and the spirit of our Constitution. It's interesting to note that according to a Gallup poll conducted in December, 2007 (http://www.pollingreport.com/politics.htm), given a choice between a homosexual candidate for president, a muslim candidate for president, or an Atheist candidate for president, America would take the Atheist as a last resort.

 

Discuss.

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Quite simply: I live a moral life because the reprecussions of doing otherwise will be felt in THIS life, not another. Likewise, knowing my life is finite, I strive to do good things now, so that their good may be felt after I'm gone.

 

I definitely feel you on this.

 

I'm agnostic, which I guess can be considered a branch of "atheism' but I think that whether you're an aetheist, agnostic, muslim, christian, hebrew, etc, you can still have moral character and that's what's most important to me, as far as my "beliefs".

 

I'd like to think there's a God and heaven. It's quite comforting, actually.

 

Topics on respecting other beliefs have been coming up left and right lately; this thread comes at a perfect time. Hopefully people will learn from each other and gain a sense of solidarity instead of letting it get out of control.

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Perhaps we should have the off-topic religious discussion moved to this thread for continuity. These are the quotes that got to me --

 

Who wants to even be around or associated with anyone who believes that this is all there is. That is the kind of thinking that leads to people do anything to anybody to get as much of anything as they can before they die. I believe that most hardened criminals believe that this is there only chance to live as high on the hog as they can so they rob, steal and kill because when it's over, it's over.

 

Which is hardly from the truth. Atheists only comprise 0.209% of the prison population, with Catholics taking the cake at 39.164% followed closely by Protestants at 35.008%. (Federal Bureau of Prisons)

 

The souless point was referring to atheists.  I'm not going to go into a belief system or spiritualness explanation, I'll just leave it at that.  I don't know why you just threw in gays, lesbians and people with different points of views as souless.  That wasn't even what was being discussed (at least in my post).

 

Yes, we may have no "soul" in regards to Christianity or religion in general, but we do have a soul -- a living, beating and caring heart. I brought up the LGBT bit, because it was in the context of my reply --

 

Nasdun, if you have no interest in reading about "a group of people that base their lives on being soulless," what do you mean by that? Atheists? Gay and lesbians? Those who hold radically different viewpoints than of your own?

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its funny, a friend of mine who is catholic is so over-protective and catution sensitive and generally sooo scared of death.  But why is he sooo scared of dying...hes going to heaven right?  Meanwhile, I am not scared of death in the least.  And according to my beliefs, my life on earth is the main show so....I dont know, its interesting. 

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Death (and/or an afterlife) doesn't phase me a bit - it's that grey area of "how's it gonna happen" and "how d@mn old am I gonna be?" that miffs me a little - I mean, if I can't enjoy a beer or my favorite foods, etc. - what's the d@mn point of turning 100?

 

What really irks me about death is when someone passes away and people use the term "wake" in place of "calling hours" or "visitation".

 

If you're having a wake, there will be alcohol available, and people will NOT be speaking in hushed tones or weeping softly, sitting in rows of folding chairs, etc. At a wake, people crack jokes and tell funny stories about the deceased, listen to their favorite music, etc. and basically have a party in honor of the deceased. Suffice it to say, when I kick the bucket - there will be a wake, not some mopey somber-@ssed "calling hours". And ain't no chance in h#ll that some yoho is going to do my makeup, stitch my eyes and lips shut and plant a pink light over my head so some dipsh!t can walk up to my casket and say "gee, doesn't he look nice?" - no @sshole, I look DEAD! :x

 

Sorry - it's the Irish side talking - we're very opinionated about mortality.

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PASTED OVER FROM http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,14859.msg250701.html#new

 

Quite simply: I live a moral life because the reprecussions of doing otherwise will be felt in THIS life, not another. Likewise, knowing my life is finite, I strive to do good things now, so that their good may be felt after I'm gone.

 

Hope that clears things up for you.

 

Sure. Dude, I still love you man! And the fact that you live a moral life for those reasons is a good thing. Just realize that not everyone is capable of being moral just because it is right. Some people will risk the repercussions of this life because they feel they only have one life to live and some people couldn't care less about what happens after they are gone. I respect you for your morality. You don't need to believe in God to earn my respect. It is the morality that God teaches that I feel is the key. You don't have to believe in God to be moral. But those who don't believe in God have a little more temptation to not be moral. Many and maybe most people resist that extra temptation. That is why I have not judged you nor anyone else based on their beliefs. I hope that you understand that. You have taken this general and logical opinion too personal. I am sure that you are a nice guy. I'm done.

 

Sure, some (if not many) people might need the promise of an afterlife to do good in this one, but from a logical standpoint, it simply doesn't work that way.

 

The statistic cited up-thread about the disproportionately small number of Atheists in prison is a good indicator. Atheists comprise at least 8% of the US population, yet slightly over 2% of prisoners claim to be Atheists (I don't know. Maybe we're just 75% better at not getting caught. Looking in MY mirror? I doubt it). You'll also find that countries with higher proportions of Atheists have a higher quality of life (and a lower incidence of moral decay). By the argument that a person requires an afterlife to keep him in check in this one, a disproportionate number of prisoners would be Atheists and the Netherlands would be Sodom and Gommorah.

 

You're right: I do take this personally. There's nothing general and logical about a person's personal belief system.

 

The only problem I have with God and organized religion is that for all the good they may do in the charity department, they more than undo in the dividing (and blowing up) people department. It's a double-edged sword, perhaps. Religion gives a person many opportunities to do good, but it also provides a fabulous excuse to do bad.

 

But your personal belief system? That's off-limits to me and eveyone else. God helps you be a better person (and refrain from blowing me up), and that's all that matters.

 

Thank you.

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Seicer - it wasn't in context to what was being discussed.  Read your own quote.  You just tossed it in out of nowhere.  Everything isn't always about the gays.

 

And just to clarify my remarks on the other thread...  I don't think there is anything wrong with stating I would never vote for an atheist.  Just b/c I think atheists are "souless" doesn't mean I think they don't have souls.  It means I think they don't acknowledge they have souls.  And a soul to me isn't "a beating, caring heart".  A soul to me is what occupies this body I have and moves on when I die.  I'm not a religious person by any means, but I would say I'm somewhat of a spiritual person.  I have had experiences in my life that leave absolutely no doubt that we move on when we exit this life.  I'm not going to clarify that as heaven and/or hell b/c I personally don't know if I believe in those 2 places, at least the way religions refer to them.  If there ever was a hell, I would say we are living in that now, but that's a whole other topic.

 

And as for the "brand new" comments I made.  I stick by those, but it should not be an offensive thing.  Everybody cannot be an old soul and there will always be new ones.  In my life I have become pretty good at figuring that out when communicating with people or just plain observing.  Just an example from posters on this board, KF is new, David is old.

 

As for Master's comments...  I don't think what he said was all that bad, but I can see how someone might take it that way that is on the defensive or has their guard up somehow when someone does discuss "beliefs".  I don't agree with some of his religious overtones, but he's got some good points.  I don't think he was saying anything that would need a rebuttal involving prison statistics though.  And I am somewhat the same way in that I don't care to be surrounded by people that think we are nothing more than a little drip drop in the evolution of this planet.  If you don't believe in a god or a higher power and you think this life is just some unbelievable accident, I can't mesh with that.  And when you stop and actually listen to the life experiences others have had and you stay tuned in to that, the atheism thing kinda goes out the window eventually.  My goal in life isn't to convert anyone to "have a belief", but it is fun watching the change.  And I don't think that is anything to apologize for and definitely nothing to be offended by.  I'm obviously not one of those people on the religious right, but if one of those types read some of the comments posted on this board I think they might not agree with what KF said regarding a personal belief system:  "That's off-limits to me and everyone else" <--  That's not true around here.

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Note that my comment was not about the "gays," but about those you consider to be "soulless." Those that I mentioned were only examples to exemplify the crap that people throw out there of those who are apparently "soulless" or those that are committing major "sins."

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I prefer the concept of self-awareness over soul. I've encountered many people of faith who struggle desperately in the self-awareness department.

 

Just an example from posters on this board, KF is new, David is old.

 

Please establish for us what makes Nasdun such an expert on who's "old" and who's "new."

 

As for Master's comments...  I don't think he was saying anything that would need a rebuttal involving prison statistics though.

 

Please explain.

 

And I am somewhat the same way in that I don't care to be surrounded by people that think we are nothing more than a little drip drop in the evolution of this planet.  If you don't believe in a god or a higher power and you think this life is just some unbelievable accident, I can't mesh with that.

 

My wacky ideas about the universe? I find the universe to be too big, too wonderful to be the work of a watchmaker, and frankly I'm disturbed by the notion that all of my accomplishments are a gift and all the bad stuff that happens to me for no apparent reason is a punishment or the product of a will apart from my own. It calms me to know that my problems and my successes are a product of my ability to produce something valuable or not. My faith lies in the tendency for people to do the right thing, and the ability of society to deal with those who don't. And in the end, I want my life's work to speak for itself.

 

Also, I'm haunted by the notion that I might toil away my life in God's service only to wind up wearing red pajamas due to a terrible clerical error.

 

And when you stop and actually listen to the life experiences others have had and you stay tuned in to that, the atheism thing kinda goes out the window eventually.

 

The more life experiences I have, the more awed I become by people and what they're capable of doing and discovering. I guess I must be wrong.

 

My goal in life isn't to convert anyone to "have a belief", but it is fun watching the change.  And I don't think that is anything to apologize for and definitely nothing to be offended by.  I'm obviously not one of those people on the religious right, but if one of those types read some of the comments posted on this board I think they might not agree with what KF said regarding a personal belief system:  "That's off-limits to me and everyone else" <--  That's not true around here.

 

It's certainly not true around Nasdun.

 

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Seicer - Nobody was talking about "sins" and you did just throw it in b/c gay whatever had absolutely nothing to do with what was being discussed.  And just to clarify so you don't toss that into any further debates, I personally think there is nothing wrong with people that are gay and think that it is part of nature.  That was nothing more than a cheap shot which is what people on the extremes do all the time when they're not good at debate.

 

KF - I shouldn't have to clarify a post that was easy to read and simple to follow.  At no point did I claim to be an expert on anything.  It's comments like that which clue me in that you are "new".  It's the little things.

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KF - I shouldn't have to clarify a post that was easy to read and simple to follow.  At no point did I claim to be an expert on anything.  It's comments like that which clue me in that you are "new".  It's the little things.

 

I just thought I would clear some things up here:

dateregistered.jpg

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I would also love to hear that in more detail. If me and Kingfish have souls, I think his is light years ahead of mine!

 

And Rando, don't let Chris see that chart; he's the oldest member and already thinks he's God!

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Okay, I have an interesting thought.

 

Remember, this is my own opinion, but I BELIEVE that religion has the power to create better neighborhood lifestyles in communities.  The neighborhood I live in tends to have a lot of Catholics (I'm Catholic as well, but haven't been to the church here), but from what I see, people in this neighborhood are happy to participate in recreational sports, picnics, fish fries, etc that get the church (as well as the neighborhood) together.  That means everyone here knows each other.  You build common bonds, you have neighborhood pride because you actually know your neighbors through the church.  This doesn't apply everywhere obviously because there is a great mix of religions, with different people living close together.  But religion is a great solution for building solid neighborhoods that will keep their residents.  I think that without it, you have to look towards other solutions that are hard to come by.

 

Other then that, it's all I can say.  I am Catholic, and I'm proud to be one.  I respect other people beliefs, even if they don't believe in anyone. 

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^Agreed. Anything that focuses human energy in a positive direction is good. People WANT to do good; providing the opportunities to act on that desire is key. This is what makes Christmas such a great time of year; you can't turn around without walking into a chance to give something to your community. Keeping the giving going year-round is the challenge. An effective church can do just that.

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I would also love to hear that in more detail. If me and Kingfish have souls, I think his is light years ahead of mine!

 

And Rando, don't let Chris see that chart; he's the oldest member and already thinks he's God!

 

Technically, I did join UO 80 days after you did. You're whipping my ass on post-count though...

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Some people come off wise beyond their years and some people don't.  Some people come off wise beyond their years and try to pretend they don't know what I'm talking about so that others don't feel so bad.  That's a little annoying, but understandable.

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Seicer and Kinfish

 

Wow! As we all know, statistics can be misleading. As a person who has experienced the gloom and doom of jail, I can tell you that most everyone in jail tends to find God. Faced with the final conclution that you are doomed to die in prison, many will suddenly acknowledge Jesus as their savior, just in case. What a horrible thing it would be to find out that there really is a Hell and you are doomed to it for eternity. That's a long time to burn at the temperature of Brimstone, which burns at a very high temperature. And once again and I do mean once again, I'm not saying that all Athiests are predestined to be criminals. There are some Athiests that I like better than some Christians. All Muslims don't blow things up either, in fact, very few. There's good and bad in any group of people.

 

I don't know the statistics, but I believe that the majority of the people on this planed believes in some form of a God or Higher Power, even if they are aliens who have evolved into spiritual beings and are guiding us. I believe that the principles and morals that the most popular of these Gods teach are great morals to live by rather you are spiritual or not. The hope of an afterlife is not my only motivation to do good, but it is definitely additional motivation. My beliefs don't hurt anyone and I don't force them on anyone. So don't take it personal. I'm not trying to convert anyone.

 

As far as Gay or Athiest Presidents. This nation is a business. For the most part, business is business. Your personal life and beliefs are non of my concern. Unless they somehow interfere with that person's ability to run the country affectively. As long as the morals and values are there and they can conduct the business of the country to my satisfaction, they can have my vote.

 

 

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And Rando, don't let Chris see that chart; he's the oldest member and already thinks he's God!

 

Did a minion say something? 


"You don't just walk into a bar and mix it up by calling a girl fat" - buildingcincinnati speaking about new forumers

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Some people come off wise beyond their years and some people don't.  Some people come off wise beyond their years and try to pretend they don't know what I'm talking about so that others don't feel so bad.  That's a little annoying, but understandable.

 

There are other possibilities:

 

Wisdom comes from factors in our lives beyond time served by body or soul.

 

We hear wisdom in the words of those we agree with and not our adversaries.

 

We might not know wisdom when we hear it or hear wisdom when it isn't there.

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I just went on the thread that has the poll for everyone's ages.  I was surprised to find that over half were under 30.  I don't know if that is similar to the actual amount of members.  From reading posts only, I just assumed most on here were in their 30's.  I think that comes from the subject at hand.  I know when I was in 6th grade I was drawing out floor plans for houses while other kids were not.  Architecture and topics surrounding it tend to attract people who are usually a little more mature for their age.  Not always and not in all situations of course.  I don't know about most of you, but even at 5, 6 years old I would beg my parents to drive through certain neighborhoods so I could look at the houses or drive by certain buildings.  At 12 I was setting appointments with real estate agents for my parents.  I won't even get into the Star Wars calls to Kenner to find out when their shipping dates were when I was 10 years old.  And no, I'm not one of those adult Star Wars maniacs, just using that as an example.

 

One thing I wanted to clarify about the KF vs. David comparison, it wasn't that David comes off superior to KF.  It doesn't mean I think David is more intelligent than KF or more experienced or whatever.  I'm just going by posts I read.  Those 2 guys post a lot and just happened to have both been on the page I was commenting back on.  And based on those 2 people and what I have read by both of them, one of them comes off a lot older than they are in general discussions than the other.  Old souls usually do that, but they usually don't act like they don't know what you're talking about (which I referenced in my last post).  So maybe I picked a bad example, but I still think KF is new.  And it's not a bad thing.  My best friend is new.  My brother is new.  You new people keep the world going.

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X - I love what you just posted.  I do want to say though that I don't consider people unwise if they don't agree with me.  I consider them not as wise when it seems like I have to hit them over the head 20 times with a pile of bricks for them to understand where I'm coming from.  I grow b/c I do get the other sides.  That doesn't mean I necessarily agree with the other sides, but I can at least get it.

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Really? Less than 30? Just for the record, I'm new and 45 years old. Of-course the 40s are the new 30s, right? Also, I have written an autobiography called "Stop Hitting Me With That Bat!" I am told that it is very good and have had one 50/50 offer to publish. I'm waiting on the big offer. It addresses the wisdom that comes with Age, Experience, Natural Individual Intelligence, Instincts and Divine Wisdom. Usually, he who is wise in his own mind is among the unwise. And we must be careful not to ignore wise words simply because that person does unwise things. For example: The myth that a poor man can't tell you how to get rich. That's like saying an average basketball player can't be an exceptional basketball coach. He may not have the natural ability to play the game, but may have a great understanding of the game. A poor man may be poor because he had gotten too old by the time he figured it all out and doesn't have the desire or motivation to work that hard any longer. Another example would be a drug addict telling a child to stay away from drugs. Wise words from a person who does unwise things. Ironically, the fact that he has experienced drugs may have made him a wiser man because of the different experiences he has had. He knows he is doing an unwise thing but the addiction is stronger than his wisdom and unfortunately, his wisdom may fall on def ears because of our perception that he is unwise because of his unwise deeds. I could go on for ever on the subject so I'll quit before I really get going. Interesting subject for us "Philosopher Wanna Be's".

 

 

 

 

 

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Some people come off wise beyond their years and some people don't.  Some people come off wise beyond their years and try to pretend they don't know what I'm talking about so that others don't feel so bad.  That's a little annoying, but understandable.

 

"I am not young enough to know everything." - Oscar Wilde

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Folks - I do have to make one request - keep this discussion IN this thread. So help me god, if there's ever a forum meet and a bunch of people start philosophizing and end up ruining my buzz, there will be hell to pay (pun very much intended)! There is nothing worse than going out with a bunch of people, having a jovial time and then some jack@ss decides it's their moment to share some "epiphany". Drinking is not meant to cause introspection and if by some accident it does - keep the introspection IN!

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Folks - I do have to make one request - keep this discussion IN this thread. So help me god, if there's ever a forum meet and a bunch of people start philosophizing and end up ruining my buzz, there will be hell to pay (pun very much intended)! There is nothing worse than going out with a bunch of people, having a jovial time and then some jack@ss decides it's their moment to share some "epiphany". Drinking is not meant to cause introspection and if by some accident it does - keep the introspection IN!

 

You come to a place called "The Horrible, Horrible Religion Thread" looking for a good time? I've met the eternal optimist, and his name is "MayDay."

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Wow! As we all know, statistics can be misleading. As a person who has experienced the gloom and doom of jail, I can tell you that most everyone in jail tends to find God. Faced with the final conclution that you are doomed to die in prison, many will suddenly acknowledge Jesus as their savior, just in case.

 

Well, then I suppose the stat measuring a recidivism rate of 52% (http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0933722.html) would indicate that those jailhouse conversions don't last very long on the outside. If that cuts the Atheist inmate numbers by half, we're still bringing up the rear in prison, so to speak, with a scant 4%.

 

All in good fun, Master. I like you.

 

Blessed are the peacemakers; blessed are the MayDays. I'm done stirring the pot here (for the moment). Let's continue the bridge-building process.

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Regarding "wakes":  a friend of mine's dad arranged to have his at his house instead of a funeral home, so that there could be plenty of booze.  In my own family we have a tradition called "the trunk"....which is where the booze is.

 

 

Regarding "religion"...almost by definition it means accepting someone else's beliefs as your own.  Following one's own beliefs is better defined as "faith".

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I'm not sure if this is the correct forum to post this, but since it does involve the military and laws, I figured this is as close as any.

 

But anyway, I have really had enough of this so called "religious group"! If you don't know who they are, they are a dirty low down group of people that basically go to the funerals of fallen soldiers and protest the funeral obviously not caring for the families of the fallen soldier have to deal with the hateful words and protesting of this group.

 

Here is more on the article. please feel free to go to the Dayton Daily News and view the comments as their seems to be a movement to line up in front of these idiots and block them from view of the funeral. I'm very inclined to join the line...

 

 

Fundamentalist church to protest Lauterbach funeral

 

By Margo Rutledge Kissell | Tuesday, January 29, 2008, 11:51 AM

Staff Writers

 

Members of a fundamentalist Kansas church who protest military funerals out of the belief the war in Iraq is punishment for the nation’s tolerance of homosexuality plan to picket Saturday’s funerals of Marine Lance Cpl. Maria Lauterbach of Vandalia and a fallen soldier from Wapakoneta.

 

Shirley Phelps-Roper, daughter of Westboro Baptist Church’s pastor, the Rev. Fred Phelps, confirmed Tuesday church members plan to picket the funerals of Lauterbach and Army Sgt. Jon Michael Schoolcraft III.

 

“The main reason is because God hates the U.S. military. God hates America and America is doomed,” Phelps-Roper said in a phone interview from the Topeka, Kan., church.

 

Ohio has a law requiring protesters to stay 300 feet (the length of a football field) from funeral ceremonies, processions and burials.

 

The legislation was introduced by State Sen. John Boccieri, D-New Middletown, an Air Force Reserve major who said he was disturbed by Westboro Baptist Church members protesting military funerals.

 

 

http://www.daytondailynews.com/o/content/shared-gen/blogs/dayton/homefront/entries/2008/01/29/fundamentalist.html

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