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field of dreams...   I think the proposed Cleveland foundation development will have such a huge affect on that intersection...

IMG_20190805_153927.jpg

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On 8/5/2019 at 4:01 PM, lockdog said:

field of dreams...   I think the proposed Cleveland foundation development will have such a huge affect on that intersection...

IMG_20190805_153927.jpg

 

I’m excited for the dilapidated lot to be filled in. It would be great to be a park if it were actually made into a decent park. But it’s a blight on Euclid Avenue, which is an otherwise really great street. It would be really great if the big lot next to Gallucis could be developed into a street abutting building. 

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On ‎7‎/‎3‎/‎2019 at 8:05 AM, Htsguy said:

For what it is worth I quickly reviewed a brief filed in DT lawsuit and it would appear to me that the grounds for the suit are pretty shaky.  That said the assigned judge is very unpredictable.

Update on the Dunham Tavern lawsuit.  A couple of weeks ago the court ruled on the defendant's motion for judgment on the pleadings and ruled in defendant's favor dismissing the entire lawsuit.  An opinion by the court has not yet been filed but is apparently forth coming.  Of course the plaintiffs can still appeal which would continue to gum up the proposed property sale.  I have a vague recollection that the Cleveland Foundation indicated in the past that the deal had to consummated by September of this year (why I am not quite sure) so an appeal would hamper that closing date if the reasons for a Sept. transfer are actually true and/or still in play.

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1 hour ago, imjustinjk said:

 

I’m excited for the dilapidated lot to be filled in. It would be great to be a park if it were actually made into a decent park. But it’s a blight on Euclid Avenue, which is an otherwise really great street. It would be really great if the big lot next to Gallucis could be developed into a street abutting building. 

Not at all. Its neither blighted nor dilapidated but rather well kept. I think residents there will regret it one day.

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22 minutes ago, shack said:

Not at all. Its neither blighted nor dilapidated but rather well kept. I think residents there will regret it one day.

 

It's a patch of grass that serves no purpose.

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1 minute ago, imjustinjk said:

 

It's a patch of grass that serves no purpose.

Its a historic location that was meant to preserve the rural character of the Western Reserve that was once there. This project destroys an irreplaceable part of Cleveland's history. They could have built around this property and accommodate both. Nothing special about this particular intersection. Plenty of side streets between Chester and Euclid that could have been developed.

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Just now, shack said:

This project destroys an irreplaceable part of Cleveland's history.

Could this be more wrong?  There was a large building occupying the site.  They tore it down and made it a grass lot.  So how can you possibly say that the grass lot is irreplaceable?

Edited by sizzlinbeef
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9 minutes ago, shack said:

Its a historic location that was meant to preserve the rural character of the Western Reserve that was once there. This project destroys an irreplaceable part of Cleveland's history. They could have built around this property and accommodate both. Nothing special about this particular intersection. Plenty of side streets between Chester and Euclid that could have been developed.

 

On that score, doesn't the Greater Cleveland area destroy the rural character of the Western Reserve? So let's get rid of all of that too.

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There’s more than enough urban prairie to look at on the east side to remind us of way back when (even though it was probably more forested than today anyway). We don’t need it on a main thoroughfare. 

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And they reckon that the last thing she saw in her life was
Sting, singing on the roof of the Barbican

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4 hours ago, imjustinjk said:

 

I’m excited for the dilapidated lot to be filled in. It would be great to be a park if it were actually made into a decent park. But it’s a blight on Euclid Avenue, which is an otherwise really great street. It would be really great if the big lot next to Gallucis could be developed into a street abutting building. 

One of the interesting things about this section of Terdolph Park is that there is a buried stream running through it that Dunham Tavern proposed day-lighting.  With water, the area was going to be used for sheep pasturing and herding, as it was originally.

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2 hours ago, sizzlinbeef said:

Could this be more wrong?  There was a large building occupying the site.  They tore it down and made it a grass lot.  So how can you possibly say that the grass lot is irreplaceable?

It is irreplaceable because it is directly adjacent to Dunham Tavern and they had/have site and mission appropriate plans for that land.

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5 minutes ago, Terdolph said:

It is irreplaceable because it is directly adjacent to Dunham Tavern and they had/have site and mission appropriate plans for that land.

Precisely! It needs the entire block to function properly as a stand-in for the farmstead that once was. Context is everything here. 

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The context is that it's between two major thoroughfares and on a primary transit corridor among the first- and fourth-largest employment centers in Ohio. Yes, it's very fortunate that Dunham Tavern survived the massive development of a rapidly industrializing city. Perhaps we should pay an homage to that context as well, while looking forward to the future of that neighborhood, its city and this region. Or are we just picking contexts that suit our personal preferences?

 

Edited by KJP
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2 hours ago, KJP said:

 

On that score, doesn't the Greater Cleveland area destroy the rural character of the Western Reserve? So let's get rid of all of that too.

99% of the time I would agree with you but I have to draw the line somewhere. It's the last remnant from a bygone era from the city's collective past.   This is akin to a lobotomy from "One flew over the Cuckoo''s Nest".

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4 hours ago, shack said:

99% of the time I would agree with you but I have to draw the line somewhere. It's the last remnant from a bygone era from the city's collective past.   This is akin to a lobotomy from "One flew over the Cuckoo''s Nest".

I don't get this mentality.  It's not a remnant.  It was replaced long ago by other uses.  The Dunham Tavern itself is significant and important because it remained.  Having sheep graze there in the lot next door to remind people that sheep used to graze there doesn't add significant value to the experience, in my opinion.  It's akin to removing the concrete from the surrounding streets to remind people that streets used to be dirt and gravel, as KJP alludes to up-thread.  I'm going off-topic and won't take this argument further.

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It's a unique place in the heart of the city. 

 

Sort of like this place in NYC.....

 

what do they call it? 

 

Oh yeah, Central Park!

 

(not to be confused with Terdolph Park)

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14 minutes ago, Terdolph said:

It's a unique place in the heart of the city. 

 

Sort of like this place in NYC.....

 

what do they call it? 

 

Oh yeah, Central Park!

 

(not to be confused with Terdolph Park)

Lol. Central Park was designed by Frederick Law Olmsted. The lot next the Dunham was designed by a wrecking ball. 

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11 minutes ago, surfohio said:

Lol. Central Park was designed by Frederick Law Olmsted. The lot next the Dunham was designed by a wrecking ball. 

Eventually, Terdolph Park will be even more famous and beautiful than Central Park!

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54 minutes ago, Terdolph said:

It's a unique place in the heart of the city. 

 

Sort of like this place in NYC.....

 

what do they call it? 

 

Oh yeah, Central Park!

 

(not to be confused with Terdolph Park)

If they had their way they would fill in Central Park with high-rises!   

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Penn+Square+master+plan-2018-RTA+site.jp

 

SATURDAY, AUGUST 17, 2019

Midtown property sale designed to spur new development

 

On Aug. 20, the Greater Cleveland Regional Transit Authority's (GCRTA) Board of Trustees is expected to approve selling a chunk of Euclid Avenue land in Midtown to a Cleveland Foundation affiliate for future development.

The sale is the latest example of intensifying interest in rejuvenating this once-vibrant neighborhood that's been relegated to pass-through status for more than 40 years.

 

MORE:

https://neo-trans.blogspot.com/2019/08/midtown-property-sale-designed-to-spur.html

 

 

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Here are two views of the RTA property to be sold, seen at right, one from circa 1980, the other from September 2018. Both are looking east along Euclid Avenue. The 1980-era photo was taken from the elevated railroad bridge. The 2018 view was taken from a Google Streetview.....

 

Circa 1980:

Euclid+Ave-PRR+bridge+looking+east-c1980

 

Sept. 2018:

Euclid+Avenue+looking+east+from+PRR+brid

Edited by KJP
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45 minutes ago, w28th said:

If this neighborhood wasn’t wiped off the face of the earth it could have been the City’s finest.

 

I could say that about Euclid-East 105th too. Or maybe Five Points in Collinwood. Or Woodland-Kinsman-East 55th, or Broadway-East 55th, or a few other candidates. Point is, efforts are underway to rebuild this neighborhood and others. Let's look ahead, not to the last 50 years of destruction.

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What would need to be done to ensure that there is space for a new Penn Station commuter rail station on that railroad bridge at Euclid and East 55? If we can get commuter rail going, that would presumably be the transfer point for Clinic employees and possibly also a good chunk of UC employees, considering how much more convenient Health Line stations are compared to the Red Line. 

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30 minutes ago, Boomerang_Brian said:

What would need to be done to ensure that there is space for a new Penn Station commuter rail station on that railroad bridge at Euclid and East 55? If we can get commuter rail going, that would presumably be the transfer point for Clinic employees and possibly also a good chunk of UC employees, considering how much more convenient Health Line stations are compared to the Red Line. 

 

It wouldn't be hard to preserve it. There were four tracks through there, and you can still see the station platforms as well as the capped openings for the stairwells and baggage elevators. NS still owns the entire width of the right of way so it's doubtful a bike trail or some non-rail use would be allowed on to the right of way. 

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1 hour ago, jjames0408 said:

For those of us that are younger, it is absolutely unfathomable that the first picture is the east side of Cleveland. 

 

Then you probably will have difficulty with these as well. They were taken in roughly the same location and also about 1980.

Euclid Ave-East 61st Street-looking east-c1980.jpg

Euclid Ave-PRR bridge looking east-c1980-2REV.jpg

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20 hours ago, KJP said:

 

Then you probably will have difficulty with these as well. They were taken in roughly the same location and also about 1980.

Euclid Ave-East 61st Street-looking east-c1980.jpg

Euclid Ave-PRR bridge looking east-c1980-2REV.jpg

 

These I remember.   I guess my father lived in one of the buildings around 55th/Euclid in the 60's as a college student.  

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21 hours ago, KJP said:

 

Then you probably will have difficulty with these as well. They were taken in roughly the same location and also about 1980.

Euclid Ave-East 61st Street-looking east-c1980.jpg

Euclid Ave-PRR bridge looking east-c1980-2REV.jpg

The presence of those large buildings didn't make the old Euclid Avenue so wide and oversized. Side note, that was A LOT of tear down. Who was behind this tear down? That is a large stretch, I've only witnessed such tear down when they have a replacement plan in place, clearly that wasn't the case. 

Edited by MyPhoneDead
I had more to say

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This is the Midtown: Development and News thread, not the Midtown: Trip Down Memory Lane thread.  Can we get back on topic?

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On ‎8‎/‎17‎/‎2019 at 9:50 PM, KJP said:

Penn+Square+master+plan-2018-RTA+site.jp

 

SATURDAY, AUGUST 17, 2019

Midtown property sale designed to spur new development

 

On Aug. 20, the Greater Cleveland Regional Transit Authority's (GCRTA) Board of Trustees is expected to approve selling a chunk of Euclid Avenue land in Midtown to a Cleveland Foundation affiliate for future development.

The sale is the latest example of intensifying interest in rejuvenating this once-vibrant neighborhood that's been relegated to pass-through status for more than 40 years.

 

MORE:

https://neo-trans.blogspot.com/2019/08/midtown-property-sale-designed-to-spur.html

 

 

A few days ago the plaintiff's challenging the sale of Dunham Tavern property to the Cleveland Foundation filed an appeal of the trial court decision in favor of Dunham Tavern and the sale.  Will be interesting to see if the GCRTA sale to the Foundation discussed in @KJP's blog post will be put on hold pending resolution of the appeal.

 

Again I believe the DT has a stronger position (as it won rather quickly in the trial court) but an appeal will take time (8-9 months or so) and it could gum things up which is often an ancillary goal of such litigation. 

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12 minutes ago, Htsguy said:

A few days ago the plaintiff's challenging the sale of Dunham Tavern property to the Cleveland Foundation filed an appeal of the trial court decision in favor of Dunham Tavern and the sale.  Will be interesting to see if the GCRTA sale to the Foundation discussed in @KJP's blog post will be put on hold pending resolution of the appeal.

 

Again I believe the DT has a stronger position (as it won rather quickly in the trial court) but an appeal will take time (8-9 months or so) and it could gum things up which is often an ancillary goal of such litigation. 

 

The Cleveland Foundation has broader goals regarding neighborhood redevelopment. Their proposed HQ relocation to Midtown is but a part of that goal. So is a transit-oriented development of an RTA-owned property. I believe these are separate projects albeit under the same overall mission. Thus, I don't see that one will affect the other, otherwise I doubt it would be on the RTA board's agenda for final approval tomorrow.

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4 hours ago, CLE_Millennial said:

Just imagining that all these buildings could have been redeveloped into luxury apartments is making me sad.

 

It's time to rebuild.

I don't think that they would work as residential because of the size of the floor plates.  They could have been re-purposed as light industrial if Cleveland would have had any interest in not letting all of its manufacturing move out to Solon. 

 

Our leaders at the time just didn't care.  All they were interested in was federal handouts (Ralph Perk looking at you).

Edited by Terdolph

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Such great old photos! There were still a lot these buildings in the mid-80s when I was little. My mom used to take us on the bus downtown to Woolworths and when we got to this stretch of Euclid I thought I was in New York City or something. They left such a huge impression on me... staggering to watch them all go, but encouraging to see so much sprouting up in the last few years. Thanks for sharing all this knowledge in these forums, everyone 🙂

Edited by Nickel Plate RR
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Welcome @Nickel Plate RR! I'm a big fan of your forum name, and your namesake! I live just 10 houses from it in Lakewood.


"Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities."-Voltaire

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Just now, KJP said:

Welcome @Nickel Plate RR! I'm a big fan of your forum name, and your namesake! I live just 10 houses from it in Lakewood.

Ha, thank you!  And thanks for sharing all your knowledge over the years. I’ve been surfing through these forums for a long time and finally thought I’d chime in. 

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2 minutes ago, Nickel Plate RR said:

Ha, thank you!  And thanks for sharing all your knowledge over the years. I’ve been surfing through these forums for a long time and finally thought I’d chime in. 

 

My knowledge is in transportation. I don't know much about real estate news except where to find it. 😉 

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