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Cleveland: Midtown: Development and News

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When I first heard they were looking at  that site I was pretty strongly against it. Now I'm more mixed on my feelings. This area of the city does not have any large areas of greenspace. Yes, building the city back up and filling in the vacant lots is more than needed, but so are areas of recreation space larger than just corner pocket parks. The Dunham Tavern block had/has the potential to be that large, central greenspace to build a neighborhood around. Thurgood Marshall and the Nord Greenway are the closest currently, but those are quite distant and no where near walkable from this area; and League Park is rightfully focused on baseball. My initial objection was based on locating an office building on this site when there is so much vacant land, including city owned land, nearby.

 

Now with the plans released, their building as designed looks beautiful. With the green roof  and use of wood in particular,  I think it will tie in nicely with the current tavern site, and provided they interact with the tavern site and help with programming the area - along with being publicly accessible -  the Foundation being located here could in fact work towards making this block a focus to build a complete neighborhood around. My only trepidation now is with the office building planned for a later phase directly north of their building, which would in theory not be publicly accessible. 

 

I just don't want recreational park space to be forgotten as this neighborhood is being brought back. It will be much easier to plan it out now while there is still so much empty space than to try and fit it in later down the line when things are filling up.

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13 minutes ago, PoshSteve said:

When I first heard they were looking at  that site I was pretty strongly against it. Now I'm more mixed on my feelings. This area of the city does not have any large areas of greenspace. Yes, building the city back up and filling in the vacant lots is more than needed, but so are areas of recreation space larger than just corner pocket parks. The Dunham Tavern block had/has the potential to be that large, central greenspace to build a neighborhood around. Thurgood Marshall and the Nord Greenway are the closest currently, but those are quite distant and no where near walkable from this area; and League Park is rightfully focused on baseball. My initial objection was based on locating an office building on this site when there is so much vacant land, including city owned land, nearby.

 

Now with the plans released, their building as designed looks beautiful. With the green roof  and use of wood in particular,  I think it will tie in nicely with the current tavern site, and provided they interact with the tavern site and help with programming the area - along with being publicly accessible -  the Foundation being located here could in fact work towards making this block a focus to build a complete neighborhood around. My only trepidation now is with the office building planned for a later phase directly north of their building, which would in theory not be publicly accessible. 

 

I just don't want recreational park space to be forgotten as this neighborhood is being brought back. It will be much easier to plan it out now while there is still so much empty space than to try and fit it in later down the line when things are filling up.

League Park is literally five blocks north.  MLK school with a massive greenspace is another five blocks east of that. 

Edited by KFM44107
Delete. I don't know how to read apparently.
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19 hours ago, Terdolph said:

The Cleveland foundation should be downtown.  There is no reason to use parkland for a suburban style office building on that site.

 Based on what FACTS? 

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they just tore down the gyro george building across from the midtown one development

Former Gyro George building and One Midtown on the other side of East 73rd. I took these while riding my bike down Euclid earlier this month. 

E73.jpg

E73_2.jpg

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13 minutes ago, MyTwoSense said:

 Based on what FACTS? 

The fact that the current site is a park and is contiguous with another park.  The fact that virtually across the street or a few blocks up the street there is vacant commercial lots.  The fact that current down town office vacancy is still above ten percent.

 

How many more facts do you need?

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Just now, Terdolph said:

The fact that the current site is a park and is contiguous with another park.  The fact that virtually across the street or a few blocks up the street there is vacant commercial lots.  The fact that current down town office vacancy is still above ten percent.

 

How many more facts do you need?

Those aren't facts.  Those are observations.  When they move, as a blue chip business, they will be able to work with MdTown Cleveland to attract other businesses.  

 

Just because you see vacant property today, does not mean it will be vacant in the future.  This project is the start of a change.  Commercial business set up shop, followed by ancillary businesses, followed by residential buildings followed by neighborhood targeted retail.

 

Like any other neighborhood undergoing a transformation, some Clevelander's always point out the negative, yet can't think outside the box and see positives. When E.4th was being discussed and planned, people said things like, "downtown cannot support more x, y or z" ,"east fourth will hurt the Warehouse District".   Now we have several connected neighborhoods from the Warehouse District through Tower City (with housing, restaurants and 24 entertainment) to Gateway/East 4th, past East Ninth into Playhouse Square.  There are people who want to live in these neighborhoods and developers cannot keep up with the demand, when, here in Cleveland apartment construction/development has been measured and conservative. 

 

Same thing happened in D-S.  Now the seeds planted 4/5 years ago are producing fruit.  It's only a matter of time before you will be able to walk/ride/run from the D/S Bridge to west 65 and feel like you've passed through 6 different/distinct sub neighborhoods.

 

Progress is knocking at Midtown Cleveland's door.  I hope they answer.

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https://pattakoslaw.com/why-is-the-cleveland-foundation-insisting-on-building-its-new-headquarters-on-the-newly-restored-dunham-tavern-museum-greenspace/?fbclid=IwAR3Qb33KOw-2VpRBFPqcqo6QtiNGN4YEXuR4aiVEb5B1JcfU1zKMRvaNNrk

 

Long link but this was an ad on fb for me, does someone want to let them know it's a lot that's been rotting away and isn't some 'newly restored greenspace'?

 

PS- I'd love to know how they targeted me for this junk post

 

Screenshot_20190701-152840_Chrome.jpg

Edited by GISguy
PS
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If the people pushing this lawsuit love "greenspace" so much, why don't they just move to Geauga County?? Oh wait, they did.

 

Keep your Geauga County rural BS out of our city, please.

Edited by KJP
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"Fascism begins the moment a ruling class, fearing the people may use their political democracy to gain economic democracy, begins to destroy political democracy in order to retain its power of exploitation and special privilege." -- Tommy Douglas, Scottish-born Canadian Baptist minister and the seventh Premier of Saskatchewan

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1 hour ago, KJP said:

If the people pushing this lawsuit love "greenspace" so much, why don't they just move to Geauga County?? Oh wait, they did.

 

Keep your Geauga County rural BS out of our city, please.

DTM *trustees* love the city so much they hired a law firm out of Fairlawn, so many contradictions with these folks.

Edited by GISguy
Edited comment to reflect @Htsguy's comment

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34 minutes ago, GISguy said:

DTM loves the city so much they hired a law firm out of Fairlawn, so many contradictions with these folks.

What law firm is that.  I note that they are represented by Todd Raskin in connection with the litigation and his firms offices are in Solon and I would guess (knowing the firm) that they were retained by Dunham's insurance carrier so they probably had not choice in the matter as far as that representation goes.  Is there another law firm involved?

Edited by Htsguy

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Just now, Htsguy said:

What law firm is that.  I note that they are represented by Todd Raskin in connection with the litigation and his firms offices are in Solon and I would guess (knowing the firm) that they were retained by Dunham's insurance carrier so they probably had not choice in the matter as far as that representation goes.  Is their another law firm involved?

Good call on the insurance, Pattakos in that post above are the lawyers out of Fairlawn. 

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47 minutes ago, GISguy said:

Good call on the insurance, Pattakos in that post above are the lawyers out of Fairlawn. 

It looks like Pattakos is representing the plaintiff trustee's not Dunham Tavern

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On 6/29/2019 at 1:55 PM, MyTwoSense said:

Those aren't facts.  Those are observations.  When they move, as a blue chip business, they will be able to work with MdTown Cleveland to attract other businesses.  

 

Just because you see vacant property today, does not mean it will be vacant in the future.  This project is the start of a change.  Commercial business set up shop, followed by ancillary businesses, followed by residential buildings followed by neighborhood targeted retail.

 

Like any other neighborhood undergoing a transformation, some Clevelander's always point out the negative, yet can't think outside the box and see positives. When E.4th was being discussed and planned, people said things like, "downtown cannot support more x, y or z" ,"east fourth will hurt the Warehouse District".   Now we have several connected neighborhoods from the Warehouse District through Tower City (with housing, restaurants and 24 entertainment) to Gateway/East 4th, past East Ninth into Playhouse Square.  There are people who want to live in these neighborhoods and developers cannot keep up with the demand, when, here in Cleveland apartment construction/development has been measured and conservative. 

 

Same thing happened in D-S.  Now the seeds planted 4/5 years ago are producing fruit.  It's only a matter of time before you will be able to walk/ride/run from the D/S Bridge to west 65 and feel like you've passed through 6 different/distinct sub neighborhoods.

 

Progress is knocking at Midtown Cleveland's door.  I hope they answer.

I don't see how you see this as a positive.  Midtown's gain is down towns loss. 

 

At best this is a net zero sum gain.

 

At worst you lose a park and devitalize down town.

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1 hour ago, Terdolph said:

I don't see how you see this as a positive.  Midtown's gain is down towns loss. 

 

At best this is a net zero sum gain.

 

At worst you lose a park and devitalize down town.

I don't see how you see this a negative.  Its as if you didn't read one thing I wrote.

 

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What park?  I drive by there all the time, and I assure you, there is no park.

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1 hour ago, X said:

What park?  I drive by there all the time, and I assure you, there is no park.

and if you don't believe him, google 66th and Euclid....   🙄

 

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16 hours ago, MyTwoSense said:

I don't see how you see this a negative.  Its as if you didn't read one thing I wrote.

 

Everything you wrote applies equally to downtown. 

 

There in nothing about this particular tenant that says "mid town", e.g. customer parking, high ceiling height, manufacturing or laboratory equipment, etc.  Everything about this tenant says "high rise" in down town.

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Some photos of the new hotel from my drive today, also of DTM's 'park'

20190702_143256.jpg

 

20190702_143251.jpg

 

20190702_143249.jpg

 

20190702_144959.jpg

 

20190702_144941.jpg

 

20190702_143306.jpg

Edited by GISguy
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"Fascism begins the moment a ruling class, fearing the people may use their political democracy to gain economic democracy, begins to destroy political democracy in order to retain its power of exploitation and special privilege." -- Tommy Douglas, Scottish-born Canadian Baptist minister and the seventh Premier of Saskatchewan

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8 hours ago, Terdolph said:

Everything you wrote applies equally to downtown. 

 

There in nothing about this particular tenant that says "mid town", e.g. customer parking, high ceiling height, manufacturing or laboratory equipment, etc.  Everything about this tenant says "high rise" in down town.

 

Says who?

meryl streep GIF

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On 6/28/2019 at 5:43 PM, Terdolph said:

Building here is a huge mistake.

 

On 6/28/2019 at 5:43 PM, Terdolph said:

Building here is a huge mistake.

I agree with you and I hope the lawsuit succeeds. That parcel could have been used for special outdoor events, concerts, antique car show, etc. in the manner of Stan Hywet Hall @ Gardens. I don't think anyone is against CF moving to Midtown just not at that specific location.

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8 hours ago, shack said:

 

I agree with you and I hope the lawsuit succeeds. That parcel could have been used for special outdoor events, concerts, antique car show, etc. in the manner of Stan Hywet Hall @ Gardens. I don't think anyone is against CF moving to Midtown just not at that specific location.

It’s a lot. It’s a damn vacant lot. How long have they had it and done nothing with it? If there were all of these great, grand ideas for it, why haven’t they been done already? They’ve done nothing, absolutely nothing, with that land since they bought it. And now that it can actually be put to good use, NOW people want to act like something great is going to happen with it if it isn’t developed? Are you kidding me? If CF doesnt build there this is going to continue to be a vacant lot. 

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16 minutes ago, inlovewithCLE said:

It’s a lot. It’s a damn vacant lot. How long have they had it and done nothing with it? If there were all of these great, grand ideas for it, why haven’t they been done already? They’ve done nothing, absolutely nothing, with that land since they bought it. And now that it can actually be put to good use, NOW people want to act like something great is going to happen with it if it isn’t developed? Are you kidding me? If CF doesnt build there this is going to continue to be a vacant lot. 

You are most probably correct that it will stay a vacant lot for a long time.  Dunham Tavern principals have more or less admitted they don't have the resource to do anything major with it and it's not like it is an organization that is at the top end of the charitable giving list in town.

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For what it is worth I quickly reviewed a brief filed in DT lawsuit and it would appear to me that the grounds for the suit are pretty shaky.  That said the assigned judge is very unpredictable.

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2 hours ago, inlovewithCLE said:

It’s a lot. It’s a damn vacant lot. How long have they had it and done nothing with it? If there were all of these great, grand ideas for it, why haven’t they been done already? They’ve done nothing, absolutely nothing, with that land since they bought it. And now that it can actually be put to good use, NOW people want to act like something great is going to happen with it if it isn’t developed? Are you kidding me? If CF doesnt build there this is going to continue to be a vacant lot. 

If I'm not mistaken they tore down some derelict building on that site. To say that they haven't done anything on that property is simply not true. 

 

 

Edited by shack
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2 minutes ago, w28th said:

Would have made a nice residential conversion now.

Dick Pace had plans to buy the building and do some sort of renovation to it but DTM insisted that the needed to create a "park." So here we are many years later and nothing. 

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Yes, they tore down these buildings. The front of the larger building was sliced off by RTA for the Euclid Corridor project. It was proposed to be redeveloped by Cumberland but Dunham Tavern acquired it from RTA in 2012 for basically the conveyance fee. It would have made a wonderful rehab and retained some density on this once vibrant avenue.

 

On 6/7/2012 at 9:16 AM, KJP said:

Was nosing around the Web last night and found the two images below at http://www.dimitarchitects.com (where there are more images of this abandoned project). I realize the developers couldn't make a go of it at this tiny little moment in history. And now that the building will be demolished, no one will....

 

6611euclid-Dimitarchitects0.jpg

 

6611euclid-Dimitarchitects1.jpg

 

In 1954 when Euclid was the main street of the nation's 7th-largest city....

Euclid Ave-6603 warehouse-1954.jpg

Edited by KJP
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"Fascism begins the moment a ruling class, fearing the people may use their political democracy to gain economic democracy, begins to destroy political democracy in order to retain its power of exploitation and special privilege." -- Tommy Douglas, Scottish-born Canadian Baptist minister and the seventh Premier of Saskatchewan

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31 minutes ago, KJP said:

Yes, they tore down these buildings. The front of the larger building was sliced off by RTA for the Euclid Corridor project. It was proposed to be redeveloped by Cumberland but Dunham Tavern acquired it from RTA in 2012 for basically the conveyance fee. It would have made a wonderful rehab and retained some density on this once vibrant avenue.

 

 

In 1954 when Euclid was the main street of the nation's 7th-largest city....

Euclid Ave-6603 warehouse-1954.jpg

 

Dammit KJP, why do you have to make me sad all the time with these historic photos? 

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2 hours ago, ryanfrazier said:

 

Dammit KJP, why do you have to make me sad all the time with these historic photos? 

the most depressing photos are Millionaire row mansion homes that were destroyed on Euclid.  It would have been a major  tourist attraction for the city on par with the Newport mansion of Rhode Island such as the Breakers and others. Thank goodness those were saved and is well worth a visit! https://www.newportmansions.org/

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Yes, I've toured most of them. But the Newport mansions were saved because Newport never grew into a major city that grew upward as it matured. After the income tax was passed in 1913, the Newport homes became unsustainable and unwanted. Nor was there any development pressure to raze them. There was on Euclid Avenue, especially after 1915 when the Euclid Avenue streetcars were no longer detoured via Prospect Avenue between East 9th and East 40th, and later East 14th to East 40th. Many Euclid Avenue mansions were donated to charities and social service organizations which either used them as offices or sold them for fundraising.

 

There has been little or no development pressure on Euclid Avenue in Midtown from the 1960s to until about 5-10 years ago. The development pressure is only going to increase. So even if this vacant lot isn't built on now, it will be someday.

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"Fascism begins the moment a ruling class, fearing the people may use their political democracy to gain economic democracy, begins to destroy political democracy in order to retain its power of exploitation and special privilege." -- Tommy Douglas, Scottish-born Canadian Baptist minister and the seventh Premier of Saskatchewan

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Mansions are a horrible land use for a city, as is playing little house on the prairie. 

Edited by viscomi
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27 minutes ago, viscomi said:

Mansions are a horrible land use for a city, as is playing little house on the prairie. 

The ones on the lakes shore are quite nice. The wealthy owners don't give a hoot about city land use and are willing to pay top dollar to keep their homes just as they are.

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