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     Please correct me if I’m wrong, but I believe even if one goes through transition fully and hormone therapy, you don’t lose your body frame or muscle mass (with the exception that if you stop training, then muscle mass may decrease). I’ve read up on bodybuilding a bit and testosterone is used heavily to increase mass, but once you stop using it in excess it doesn’t mean you lose the muscle just that you stop building it as fast.
      Genetically speaking if an athlete transitioned from M to F she would still be retain her abilities that she had before. This becomes an issue when you start talking about winning competitive events. It was said earlier that NBA pros are 3 standard deviations above mean height besides the fact that they have exceptional body control and “game intelligence” (unless you’re JR Smith who might be lacking game intelligence). The best female athletes would arguably be just as good as the best male athletes relative to normal athletes in their respective gender. Since both the best male and female athletes are the best in the world you may question if the females could compete with the males. 
 

There have been cases where this has happened. Anika Sorensen and Michelle Wie both competed on the PGA Tour (which is generally only comprised of males opposed to the LPGA). Neither of them made the cut to continue playing the tournament. 
 

Another case I know of is a male tennis player ranked 200+ in the world was challenged to a match against Serena Williams. It was informal so maybe not the best example but he played a round of golf before the match and was still able to beat Serena 6-1 in one match. Immediately after that match he also played Venus and beat her 6-2. There are other examples if you compare the times of track runners who do nothing but train and the women are significantly slower than the men, (not for a lack of effort). 
 

Essentially there are genetic differences between XX humans and XY humans that separate them in sporting ability. When one transitions from M to F it doesn’t remove her inherent advantage at sports although it may slightly lessen it. I believe sports should not label them Male or Female but rather XX and XY to focus on the genetic differences. 

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17 minutes ago, RDB said:

  Essentially there are genetic differences between XX humans and XY humans that separate them in sporting ability. When one transitions from M to F it doesn’t remove her inherent advantage at sports although it may slightly lessen it. I believe sports should not label them Male or Female but rather XX and XY to focus on the genetic differences. 

 

I think that's a really good and equitable idea. 

 

I have a buddy that competes in power lifting competitions. He won a competition last year in (I believe) the 180 weight class, and the female weight class of the same caliber (not sure how that translates on the scale) actually had a transitioned female who won the competition, and she would have come in 3rd in her equal men's weight class, but won hers by a substantial margin. 

 

It's amateur and obviously it changed no one's financial situation, but that never seemed equitable to me. 

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I have to say that I fully support the rights of transgender individuals but I do not know the answer to this issue.  The XX and XY distinction might be a good one but some individuals do have some variation of XX and XY again, I don't know the answers to this. 

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Just now, freefourur said:

I have to say that I fully support the rights of transgender individuals but I do not know the answer to this issue.  The XX and XY distinction might be a good one but some individuals do have some variation of XX and XY again, I don't know the answers to this. 

 

I think, in part, none of us do just yet - because we don't have a comprehensive, Science-based understanding of what precisely leads to transitioning. If we're being honest here, that's why I've been more cautious in my approach to the issue than I was about LGB - I just don't understand it well enough and haven't been able to really have it explained to me. 

 

Having said that, I agree with you. I want everyone to be comfortable and happy in their own skin - and I think the way transgender person's are often treated after their transition is despicable, and sticking up for them is crucial. I'm just not sure how it should apply to sporting categories just yet. 

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25 minutes ago, YABO713 said:

 

I think that's a really good and equitable idea. 

 

I have a buddy that competes in power lifting competitions. He won a competition last year in (I believe) the 180 weight class, and the female weight class of the same caliber (not sure how that translates on the scale) actually had a transitioned female who won the competition, and she would have come in 3rd in her equal men's weight class, but won hers by a substantial margin. 

 

It's amateur and obviously it changed no one's financial situation, but that never seemed equitable to me. 


@RDB I do actually think that is incorrect. The situations aren’t the same, because a trans female (IF they decide to do hormone therapy, I want to emphasize there are those who don’t or cannot) on hormone replacement therapy isn’t the same as a guy having natural testosterone, taking T, and then stopping taking the additional T.

 

Trans women would be taking test blockers, estrogen and progesterone. Doing a little research, according to UCSFMC Trans Care:

 

“You can also expect your muscle mass and strength to decrease significantly. To maintain muscle tone, and for your general health, I recommend you exercise. Overall, you may gain or lose weight once you begin hormone therapy, depending on your diet, lifestyle, genetics and muscle mass.”

 

https://transcare.ucsf.edu/article/information-estrogen-hormone-therapy

 

That is among a host of other changes described as like a second puberty. But, again there are those who don’t  transition medically and I’m sure each case is slightly different depending on doctors recommendations.

Edited by Enginerd
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1 minute ago, Enginerd said:


@RDB I do actually think that is incorrect. The situations aren’t the same, because a trans female (IF they decide to do hormone therapy, I want to emphasize there are those who don’t or cannot) on hormone replacement therapy isn’t the same as a guy having natural testosterone, taking T, and then stopping taking the additional T.

 

Trans women would be taking test blockers, estrogen and progesterone. Doing a little research, according to UCSFMC Trans Care:

 

“You can also expect your muscle mass and strength to decrease significantly. To maintain muscle tone, and for your general health, I recommend you exercise. Overall, you may gain or lose weight once you begin hormone therapy, depending on your diet, lifestyle, genetics and muscle mass.”

 

https://transcare.ucsf.edu/article/information-estrogen-hormone-therapy

 

That is among a host of other changes described as like a second puberty. But, again there are those who done transition medically and I’m sure each case is slightly different depending on doctors recommendations.

 

This is good information! Thanks

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@YABO713 Another good source of information, which was really enlightening to me personally (I still don’t fully grasp everything, but I’m trying) is the podcast Gonads by WNYC. 
 

First, it’s produced to be very easy and entertaining to listen to. But they tackle topics such as what actually makes us “male” and “female” and maybe even inbetween. How our bodies “choose” which gender to become when developing. There is an episode about genders in sports, how it came about and the problems it’s had in the past. Another is the biological realities of our bodies and Sex Ed.

 

You can find it here https://www.wnycstudios.org/podcasts/radiolab/projects/radiolab-presents-gonads or wherever you get your podcasts 😉

 

Lastly, from the late 60s to about 2000 sports leagues did use a chromosome test for female sports. But it stopped around them because geneticists and endocrinologists argued that gender was more about hormones and physiology then chromosomes.

 

I really couldn’t recommend it more. I know it’s shocking lol...but what they thought us in grade school is a vast oversimplification of the truth.

 

EDIT:

The episode about sports is titled Dutee, but I recommend listening to it all.

Edited by Enginerd
Grammar

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23 minutes ago, Enginerd said:

@YABO713 Another good source of information, which was really enlightening to me personally (I still don’t fully grasp everything, but I’m trying) is the podcast Gonads by WNYC. 
 

First, it’s produced to be very easy and entertaining to listen to. But they tackle topics such as what actually makes us “male” and “female” and maybe even inbetween. How our bodies “choose” which gender to become when developing. There is an episode about genders in sports, how it came about and the problems it’s had in the past. Another is the biological realities of our bodies and Sex Ed.

 

You can find it here https://www.wnycstudios.org/podcasts/radiolab/projects/radiolab-presents-gonads or wherever you get your podcasts 😉

 

Lastly, from the late 60s to about 2000 sports leagues did use a chromosome test for female sports. But it stopped around them because geneticists and endocrinologists argued that gender was more about hormones and physiology then chromosomes.

 

I really couldn’t recommend it more. I know it’s shocking lol...but what they thought us in grade school is a vast oversimplification of the truth.

 

EDIT:

The episode about sports is titled Dutee, but I recommend listening to it all.

Thank you for the information I apologize for being up misinformed points. In the case of the CT lawsuit, is there a requirement about bringing down T levels before competing? If they did have that requirement I’m not sure what the correct solution is because it would be hard to define the limit for T levels based of a “change in athletic performance” which is incredibly hard to define. And then even if you could measure that and you set the percentage change too high that’s not fair to transgender athletes because you would force them to have a disadvantage but if you set the percentage too low it’s not fair to non transgender athletes. 
 

Regardless if there is no requirement in CT for hormone therapy before competition, that becomes closer to the classic argument I would think. 

Edited by RDB
Fixed a word

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3 hours ago, YABO713 said:

Looking to ask an honest and well-intentioned question without getting canceled...

 

Given the lawsuit in Connecticut filed against the HS athletic commission alleging that its unfair that CHSAA policy allows trans athletes to compete in their new gender’s athletics with no restrictions.

 

Were all operating under the premise that all people should be allowed to be their true selves and be happy in their own skin...

 

But can anyone make an argument as to why someone transitioned as a female should be allowed to compete without restrictions?

 

Again, don’t mean to offend anyone, but it does seem fundamentally unfair, no?

 

I'm not sure the whole movement to block them makes any sense.  Even if we assume that they'll have more advantages because of their birth gender, doesn't that ignore that all people have different advantages anyway when it comes to physical performance?  All women are not the same physically.  All men are not the same physically.  IMO, this is just discrimination hiding behind a call for a physical fairness level that is both arbitrary and impossible to adhere to.  Are cisgender athletes being banned from competition based on an arbitrary limit of how strong they can be?  Of course not, and that's why the trans bans are entirely discriminatory in practice.

 

There's also the problem about the transition differences themselves.  We're really only talking about birth males who transition to women.  In the case of birth females who transition to men, wouldn't they, based on the argument against MTF, not be able to compete at a similar level to cis men?  Are they being banned from competition because of a perceived unfair disadvantage?  If not, there is obvious hypocrisy in the argument.  

Edited by jonoh81

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3 minutes ago, jonoh81 said:

 

I'm not sure the whole movement to block them makes any sense.  Even if we assume that they'll have more advantages because of their birth gender, doesn't that ignore that all people have different advantages anyway when it comes to physical performance?  All women are not the same physically.  All men are not the same physically.  IMO, this is just discrimination hiding behind a call for a physical fairness level that is both arbitrary and impossible to adhere to.  Are cisgender athletes being banned from competition based on an arbitrary limit of how strong they can be?  Of course not, and that's why the trans bans are entirely discriminatory in practice.

 

I think, though, that the inherent differences between say one of us and Lebron James is a little different. Especially because if one of us transitioned and went to play in the WNBA, it wouldn't matter much because those women are better than us. 

 

If, however, I am a sophomore in high school that just placed 4th in the boys state 400m sprint in Connecticut, then transition as a female, go back to back as state champion as a junior and senior. This, in my opinion, is no different than another female athlete taking Winstrol and/or HGH and competing in HS, because she likely won't get drug tested. 

 

In college, a number of my teammates, and many members of opposing teams, used Winstrol, HGH, and other forms of anabolic steroids. The difference is staggering and, quite frankly, unfair and wrong. 

 

I think there's room for your position in this argument, but to cast off any limits on testosterone levels among female, transitioned athletes as "entirely discriminatory" is a bit close-minded. I understand why you'd feel that way, as this seems like just another way that limits how trans persons can be themselves, but sports in and of itself requires a certain adherence to performance standards that does not exist in other areas of life. 

 

24 minutes ago, freefourur said:

^ Thank you. I will check this out too for my own understanding. It's good to have these reasonable conversations about sensitive topics.

 

I agree, and @Enginerd's information has been really great. Not sure everything I have questions about has been answered, but I certainly appreciated being able to be candid about these things without someone jumping down my throat. 

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10 minutes ago, RDB said:

Thank you for the information I apologize for being up misinformed points. In the case of the CT lawsuit, is there a requirement about bringing down T levels before competing? If they did have that requirement I’m not sure what the correct solution is because it would be hard to define the limit for T levels based of a “change in athletic performance” which is incredibly hard to define. And then even if you could measure that and you set the percentage change too high that’s not fair to transgender athletes because you would force them to have a disadvantage but if you set the percentage too low it’s not fair to non transgender athletes. 
 

Regardless if there is no requirement in CT for hormone therapy before competition, that becomes closer to the classic argument I would think. 


No problem! And I do agree with your last point.

 

I think that in the one podcast episode, they talk about testing female athlete for T numbers under a certain level. I do agree that at some point this could contradict medical advice.

 

I’m not sure what gonna happen, or that there is an easy answer. I hope it’s the one that negatively affects the fewest people though.

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1 hour ago, RDB said:

     Please correct me if I’m wrong, but I believe even if one goes through transition fully and hormone therapy, you don’t lose your body frame or muscle mass (with the exception that if you stop training, then muscle mass may decrease). I’ve read up on bodybuilding a bit and testosterone is used heavily to increase mass, but once you stop using it in excess it doesn’t mean you lose the muscle just that you stop building it as fast.
      Genetically speaking if an athlete transitioned from M to F she would still be retain her abilities that she had before. This becomes an issue when you start talking about winning competitive events. It was said earlier that NBA pros are 3 standard deviations above mean height besides the fact that they have exceptional body control and “game intelligence” (unless you’re JR Smith who might be lacking game intelligence). The best female athletes would arguably be just as good as the best male athletes relative to normal athletes in their respective gender. Since both the best male and female athletes are the best in the world you may question if the females could compete with the males. 
 

There have been cases where this has happened. Anika Sorensen and Michelle Wie both competed on the PGA Tour (which is generally only comprised of males opposed to the LPGA). Neither of them made the cut to continue playing the tournament. 
 

Another case I know of is a male tennis player ranked 200+ in the world was challenged to a match against Serena Williams. It was informal so maybe not the best example but he played a round of golf before the match and was still able to beat Serena 6-1 in one match. Immediately after that match he also played Venus and beat her 6-2. There are other examples if you compare the times of track runners who do nothing but train and the women are significantly slower than the men, (not for a lack of effort). 
 

Essentially there are genetic differences between XX humans and XY humans that separate them in sporting ability. When one transitions from M to F it doesn’t remove her inherent advantage at sports although it may slightly lessen it. I believe sports should not label them Male or Female but rather XX and XY to focus on the genetic differences. 

 

That's not exactly true.  Female hormones would promote muscle loss without a significant increase in working out, and male hormones would increase it.  Obviously their frames would remain the same, as there is no treatment that can change bones.  But that seems irrelevant as height doesn't automatically  make someone a better athlete, and there are also plenty of taller women in sports.  

Post-op, MTF athletes would not retain higher levels of male testosterone, obviously, and they would be subject to similar physical limitations as birth women.  They absolutely do not maintain the same strength levels as pre-transition.  There is no inherent advantage to being male in terms of physical strength and stamina once those hormones are removed.  

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Just now, jonoh81 said:

 

That's not exactly true.  Female hormones would promote muscle loss without a significant increase in working out, and male hormones would increase it.  Obviously their frames would remain the same, as there is no treatment that can change bones.  But that seems irrelevant as height doesn't automatically  make someone a better athlete, and there are also plenty of taller women in sports.  

Post-op, MTF athletes would not retain higher levels of male testosterone, obviously, and they would be subject to similar physical limitations as birth women.  They absolutely do not maintain the same strength levels as pre-transition.  There is no inherent advantage to being male in terms of physical strength and stamina once those hormones are removed.  

@Enginerd already pointed that out and I accepted the argument and responded above.

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https://www.wksu.org/post/several-lawmakers-back-bill-would-ban-conversion-therapy-minors-ohio#stream/0

 

Quote

A bipartisan bill would ban Ohio children younger than 18 years old from participating in so-called conversion therapy, the practice of trying to convert someone from gay to straight. 

 

https://www.daytondailynews.com/news/local/teen-transgender-treatments-targeted-ohio-lawmakers/qyFAOs0UzsujPcATInJXTN/

 

Quote

The latest battle over transgender rights is erupting in the Ohio Statehouse where Republican lawmakers are backing a bill that would block medical treatments that delay the onset of puberty, which can allow youths more time to decide about their gender identity.

 

State Rep. Bill Dean, R-Xenia, is sponsoring a House bill, which is backed by Citizens for Community Values and opposed by EqualityOhio. The bill would punish doctors who prescribe gender-identity treatments such as hormone blockers that delay puberty.

 

So, uh, one step forward / one step back here in Ohio?


Very Stable Genius

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Concern over athletics is often just a strawman to continue the status quo for discriminating against transgender people. I wouldn't put Yabo in that category, but that is usually the subtext to this question.

 

I won't pretend to know the right way to handle issues with trans women in athletics. No (safe) amount of hormone therapy for a transitioning female will make it a level playing field. And it's impossible to have equal protection laws while also requiring dangerous or expensive therapy for trans women to compete with birth-born women.

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1 minute ago, YABO713 said:

 

I think, though, that the inherent differences between say one of us and Lebron James is a little different. Especially because if one of us transitioned and went to play in the WNBA, it wouldn't matter much because those women are better than us. 

 

If, however, I am a sophomore in high school that just placed 4th in the boys state 400m sprint in Connecticut, then transition as a female, go back to back as state champion as a junior and senior. This, in my opinion, is no different than another female athlete taking Winstrol and/or HGH and competing in HS, because she likely won't get drug tested. 

 

In college, a number of my teammates, and many members of opposing teams, used Winstrol, HGH, and other forms of anabolic steroids. The difference is staggering and, quite frankly, unfair and wrong. 

 

I think there's room for your position in this argument, but to cast off any limits on testosterone levels among female, transitioned athletes as "entirely discriminatory" is a bit close-minded. I understand why you'd feel that way, as this seems like just another way that limits how trans persons can be themselves, but sports in and of itself requires a certain adherence to performance standards that does not exist in other areas of life. 

 

 

I agree, and @Enginerd's information has been really great. Not sure everything I have questions about has been answered, but I certainly appreciated being able to be candid about these things without someone jumping down my throat. 

 

Okay, but we're only arguing that gender alone is what determines athletic ability.  Lebron wasn't born knowing how to play basketball just because he was born male.  He spent a lifetime doing it and learning to be the best he could be.  If the argument is that few women could realistically compete, how many men could?  Is the standard to play in the NBA to be as good or better than Lebron?  Or is there some acknowledgement that players have different levels of ability?  How would that be any different than a trans person in any other sport?

 

 MTF, post-op, do not retain higher levels of testosterone, though.  Even those within the transition process, the level of testosterone is eventually suppressed to female levels.  Of course, some born females have higher levels of testosterone, so this seems somewhat arbitrary too.  And what about intersex and hermaphrodites?  They are not trans, but naturally may not fall under a certain level.  

 

Again, if the entire goal is to have all athletes be at the exact same level of ability, it's an impossible goal.  And given that no one else is subject to that kind of scrutiny, it is entirely about discrimination IMO.  

 

 

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2 minutes ago, jonoh81 said:

 

Okay, but we're only arguing that gender alone is what determines athletic ability.  Lebron wasn't born knowing how to play basketball just because he was born male.  He spent a lifetime doing it and learning to be the best he could be.  If the argument is that few women could realistically compete, how many men could?  Is the standard to play in the NBA to be as good or better than Lebron?  Or is there some acknowledgement that players have different levels of ability?  How would that be any different than a trans person in any other sport?

 

 MTF, post-op, do not retain higher levels of testosterone, though.  Even those within the transition process, the level of testosterone is eventually suppressed to female levels.  Of course, some born females have higher levels of testosterone, so this seems somewhat arbitrary too.  And what about intersex and hermaphrodites?  They are not trans, but naturally may not fall under a certain level.  

 

Again, if the entire goal is to have all athletes be at the exact same level of ability, it's an impossible goal.  And given that no one else is subject to that kind of scrutiny, it is entirely about discrimination IMO.  

 

 

 

Not asking this with any snark, just want to clarify that, just for my own clarity and information... 

 

But you're essentially saying that if we have a MTF power lifter, who transitioned in June and is competing in a national competition this weekend, her T levels are parallel to those of all her fellow competitors? 

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36 minutes ago, YABO713 said:

 

Not asking this with any snark, just want to clarify that, just for my own clarity and information... 

 

But you're essentially saying that if we have a MTF power lifter, who transitioned in June and is competing in a national competition this weekend, her T levels are parallel to those of all her fellow competitors? 

 

Yes.  Remember that, at least in the US, it can take years to transition.  First, there are requirements for therapy, which itself can be a long process.  That includes determining if they really have gender dysphoria. That usually includes having them live full time as their preferred gender.  If that goes well, hormones are prescribed.  Hormones don't work instantly.  It can easily take 1-2 years to develop full feminine characteristics (or full male characteristics in FTM), and their testosterone levels decrease rapidly.  By the time that final surgeries take place, MTFs are going to have extremely low testosterone levels.  6+ months after surgery, there should not be any difference whatsoever between themselves and birth females, and they would have the same physical disadvantages in terms of building and maintaining muscle.  But that would've started the moment they began hormones in the first place.

 

There absolutely is a misconception in that MTF are only changed at a very basic and obviously physical level,  but everything else stays the same.  Their entire body chemistry is changed.  Hormones even rewire the brain to the point that they are talking, walking and acting differently, as well as the way people process things, especially emotionally.  It isn't like they have a female body, but retain male strength, etc.  

 

 

Edited by jonoh81

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^ good info.  I wasn't aware that gender re-assignment surgery was something that TG individuals do.  I assumed that it was all hormone therapy.  

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6 minutes ago, freefourur said:

^ good info.  I wasn't aware that gender re-assignment surgery was something that TG individuals do.  I assumed that it was all hormone therapy.  

 

Well, surgery is a pretty typical outcome and the ultimate goal for most, but it is not always done.  Many aren't able to do it due to sheer costs involved, some don't do it because of potential health concerns, and some just don't want it, but even without the surgery, hormone therapy alone will get them to a similar level to those of their preferred gender.

Edited by jonoh81

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You choose your religion/your interpretation of a religion. You don't choose your sexual orientation. Stop cloaking your discrimination in a benevolent religion...

 

 


"Life is 10% what happens to you and 90% how you respond." -- Coach Lou Holtz

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1 hour ago, roman totale XVII said:

^Singapore is funny like that. You’ve only got to walk Orchard Road for 5 minutes to realize it’s the gayest place in Asia. 

Never been so that is interesting. You would think they would just shed the British Colonial past on this, especially given this info. 

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35 minutes ago, Toddguy said:

Never been so that is interesting. You would think they would just shed the British Colonial past on this, especially given this info. 

 

Very on-brand for the country though. It’s basically a benevolent dictatorship, grounded in black and white laws and a strong sense of ‘morals’. However, in realty, as long as you don’t be too overt in disobeying the law, you’ll be fine.


And they reckon that the last thing she saw in her life was
Sting, singing on the roof of the Barbican

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