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The_Cincinnati_Kid

Cincinnati: Downtown: The Artistry

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^ It is because banks are not lending on such projects. In order to get a project off the ground like that now, you need to be like 75% pre-sold on it which is absurdly high, and they are making it tough for buyers to finance their units too since they took such a bath on them 10 years ago. They are starting to loosen a little, but it is not the developers as much as it is Fannie and Freddie who do not like condo developments in secondary or tertiary markets.

 

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Developers seem to be afraid of building condos in the CBD. No one wants to be the first to propose a new condo tower.

All depends on ability to finance. The 8th & Main condo proposal from Greiwe fell down because banks would finance it at the cost/sq ft that the project was targeting (which would have been highest in the city).

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Developers seem to be afraid of building condos in the CBD. No one wants to be the first to propose a new condo tower.

All depends on ability to finance. The 8th & Main condo proposal from Greiwe fell down because banks would finance it at the cost/sq ft that the project was targeting (which would have been highest in the city).

 

 

Do you know what the status of 8th and main is? Have not heard much more about it.

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The development changed hands. Greiwe won't be developing but someone else is (I forget who). They will be greatly increasing the number of units to make it work and eliminating the parking above a few spaces in the ground floor. It will have about 3 times the number of units as proposed by Greiwe. Beyond that though there hasn't been much. The new developers are probably getting their financing together which can take awhile.

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Nobody should be upset that lending has pulled back.  I'll never forget seeing all of the condo towers going up in random crappy Florida beach towns in 2006-07.  I bet half of them are still half-empty. 

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The rendering shows Skyhouse being taller than One Lytle Place but the Enquirer stated that it wouldn't be. Anyone know what the height will be?


"It's just fate, as usual, keeping its bargain and screwing us in the fine print..." - John Crichton

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They're all more or less identical (there are some various differences in the base and first couple floors, but overall pretty much identical) and around 290' tall. One Lytle Place is shorter so I have no idea what the Enquirer was on about. Maybe they think the number of stories is how one determines a building's height.

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They're all more or less identical (there are some various differences in the base and first couple floors, but overall pretty much identical) and around 290' tall. One Lytle Place is shorter so I have no idea what the Enquirer was on about. Maybe they think the number of stories is how one determines a building's height.

 

I bet counting the stories is exactly what happened, that was my first thought too. The elevation of the site looks a little bit higher as well up above the road vs right on it like One Lytle is.

 

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The Enquirer article I read said Skyhouse would be 45 feet taller than OLP even though they have the same number of stories because the floor Heights are taller in Skyhouse.

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They seem to have corrected their mistake. At the bottom they have an update saying they changed the article since they previously said OLP would be taller.

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This is incredible!

 

 

I know we were at or around $2 bil in development Downtown, right? Where are we going to be with this monster and Kroger at Central Pkwy?

 

How does thank rank us with the 3C's, Indy & Pittsburgh? Just curious...

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Business Courier is tracking everything with the new "Crane Watch" section. I'm not sure if they total it up to a dollar figure, though.

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^ project did get approved. They say the project will start this year, but things always get pushed back or delayed so we shall see

 

Thank you

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I was wondering why we hadn't heard anything on this in a while, but just read in the article from June the groundbreaking is expected to be in November, excited for this one!

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Skyhouse will really change the riverfront!

 

 

That top photo angle almost perfectly blocks all the older tall buildings in a way that it almost seems the entirety of the downtown was built up in the post 1960's era.

 

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I thought they were going to break ground on this project this month. Here we go again ???

 

I did read a recent article last month that was mentioning Skyhouse was going to start construction in December.  But outside of that article which was talking about the Oakley Stadium site, nothing has been mentioned really since this thing was brought back to life.  Seems development has been dramatically slow in Cincinnati.

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My understanding is that very little has moved forward on the design since this potentially came back to life 6 months ago.  I wouldn't necessarily hold your breath regarding a groundbreaking anytime soon. 

 

We're probably looking at a Summer 2018 groundbreaking at the earliest, and that would assume that the design begins to move forward very soon.  And I have no knowledge/insight as to what may be holding it up (or if it ever will move forward).

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Well, design isn't a long process for these buildings. They're all identical with only site work being different and some slight finish choices that are swapped out.

 

Financing is a problem nationwide right now. Even in hot markets. Some of my peers who work on buildings of this size are seeing layoffs at their firms (architects) because developers can't get financing. Even in markets like NYC and DC where development is building at a wild pace and still can't meet demand.

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Financing is a problem nationwide right now. Even in hot markets. Some of my peers who work on buildings of this size are seeing layoffs at their firms (architects) because developers can't get financing. Even in markets like NYC and DC where development is building at a wild pace and still can't meet demand.

 

Banks don't want to say it but I think many are getting nervous about a downturn in the market and don't want to be left holding the bag again like during the Great Recession. Also cost of living remains low in Cincinnati while cost of construction is in line with the national average, leaving huge gaps in many developers pro formas.


“All truly great thoughts are conceived while walking.”
-Friedrich Nietzsche

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^Which all comes back to the skilled labor shortage cause by no one going into the building trades for 10 years due to lack of work. Sprawl running as if it were free in the early-mid 2000s due to Bush Administration financial policy still has ramifications in 2017. That, and parents of the time forcing all of their kids to go to college.

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due to Bush Administration financial policy still has ramifications in 2017.

 

You mean the Bill Clinton Administration? That's when Fannie and Freddie started blowing the housing bubble.

 

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Groundbreaking was supposed to be three months ago.

What in the world happened to this awesome project?

It really would have been a nice view both north and south of the river.

I can't find anything on this from anyone. I really hope it's just delayed. I thought the City actually gave money and approved this as a firm "go".

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I don't think it's officially dead yet, but I also don't think anything on the design end has progressed since it came back to life last summer.  Last time I heard anything on this was several months ago, and at that time, it was still supposedly moving forward.

 

I wouldn't hold your breath in expecting a groundbreaking anytime in the coming months.

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If an FC Cincinnati stadium was built in Newport, would it help “spur development” at this site? It’s obviously within walking distance of the proposed Newport stadium and the target demographics of FC Cincinnati (millennials) overlap with those of Skyhouse.  Could be an interesting test of the claims people throw around.


www.cincinnatiideas.com

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Since interest rates are rising quicker than anticipated, I tend to think the financing may be more difficult to come from than what was anticipated a year ago. Apartment lenders are tightening on new developments nationwide so that may have something to do with this. Unfortunately, I feel we are looking at a long delay on this project given the changing financing conditions.

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This project is dead unfortunately. Gregory family ended up wanting too much in the end and Skyhouse has walked away from the site. Yesterday a new commercial real estate signage went up for the property.

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^ Yep. They own the Montgomery Inn. I bet they're probably pissed that they demolished their event center to make way for the last development attempt that never got off the ground, so they were trying to get a big payday from the Skyhouse developers. A real shame. Hopefully someone else will come along with a development proposal for this prime riverfront site, but I doubt it will be soon.

 

If I remember correctly, an article came out right before the mayoral election stating that this project was back online after the last lengthy delay following the Skyhouse project announcement. I highly doubt anything had changed at that time, especially if Skyhouse didn't already own the land. So it was just the Enquirer doing a little last minute campaigning for their boy Cranley, saying that all these development projects are moving forward under his watch.

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I wonder if the Skyhouse people would or have looked at other sites or if the city even tried to persuade them to stay? Although that spot would have been a good fit it was far from perfect. Maybe on Eggleston closer to the foot of Mt Adams where it was more a part of the city and closer to pendleton and OTR or was being on the river a Skyhouse trademark?

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I wonder if the Skyhouse people would or have looked at other sites or if the city even tried to persuade them to stay? Although that spot would have been a good fit it was far from perfect. Maybe on Eggleston closer to the foot of Mt Adams where it was more a part of the city and closer to pendleton and OTR or was being on the river a Skyhouse trademark?

 

I would really like to see all those lots along Culvert and Eggleston get developed. Other cities have taken these areas that are blighted with overpasses and turned the overpasses into unique features that really give the neighborhood a different feel. I'm thinking Dumbo, Brooklyn or Old City, Philly. Here is a before and after in Philly:

 

old_city_17.thumb.JPG.add5d1ddb4e3af646990e011bbb3a766.JPG

old_city.thumb.JPG.f25de513ddfc5e825070c15ff2f49f91.JPG

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I wonder if the Skyhouse people would or have looked at other sites or if the city even tried to persuade them to stay? Although that spot would have been a good fit it was far from perfect. Maybe on Eggleston closer to the foot of Mt Adams where it was more a part of the city and closer to pendleton and OTR or was being on the river a Skyhouse trademark?

 

I would really like to see all those lots along Culvert and Eggleston get developed. Other cities have taken these areas that are blighted with overpasses and turned the overpasses into unique features that really give the neighborhood a different feel. I'm thinking Dumbo, Brooklyn or Old City, Philly. Here is a before and after in Philly:

 

 

They should demolish the Gilbert Ave. overpasses though, and replace it with a roundabout intersection for Gilbert, Eggleston and 8th (Reedy) streets.


www.cincinnatiideas.com

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I wonder if the Skyhouse people would or have looked at other sites or if the city even tried to persuade them to stay? Although that spot would have been a good fit it was far from perfect. Maybe on Eggleston closer to the foot of Mt Adams where it was more a part of the city and closer to pendleton and OTR or was being on the river a Skyhouse trademark?

 

I would really like to see all those lots along Culvert and Eggleston get developed. Other cities have taken these areas that are blighted with overpasses and turned the overpasses into unique features that really give the neighborhood a different feel. I'm thinking Dumbo, Brooklyn or Old City, Philly. Here is a before and after in Philly:

 

 

They should demolish the Gilbert Ave. overpasses though, and replace it with a roundabout intersection for Gilbert, Eggleston and 8th (Reedy) streets.

 

Oh absolutely agree with that.

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I wonder if the Skyhouse people would or have looked at other sites or if the city even tried to persuade them to stay? Although that spot would have been a good fit it was far from perfect. Maybe on Eggleston closer to the foot of Mt Adams where it was more a part of the city and closer to pendleton and OTR or was being on the river a Skyhouse trademark?

 

I would really like to see all those lots along Culvert and Eggleston get developed. Other cities have taken these areas that are blighted with overpasses and turned the overpasses into unique features that really give the neighborhood a different feel. I'm thinking Dumbo, Brooklyn or Old City, Philly. Here is a before and after in Philly:

 

 

They should demolish the Gilbert Ave. overpasses though, and replace it with a roundabout intersection for Gilbert, Eggleston and 8th (Reedy) streets.

and so now you want to demolish overpasses and streets... what is that word people use to describe a woman who can't make up her mind?

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^^I'm hoping that was just in playful joking.  I would say there is an obvious difference between that particular overpass that just functions to get cars in & out of the CBD and an actual street grid that pedestrians use to circulate. Me thinks you have been holding that comment in just to drop it for your earlier idea that was discussed about Plum st. I think the best thing to have as a planner/designer is a thick skin and a willingness to listen to input from others.

 

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I wonder if the Skyhouse people would or have looked at other sites or if the city even tried to persuade them to stay? Although that spot would have been a good fit it was far from perfect. Maybe on Eggleston closer to the foot of Mt Adams where it was more a part of the city and closer to pendleton and OTR or was being on the river a Skyhouse trademark?

 

I would really like to see all those lots along Culvert and Eggleston get developed. Other cities have taken these areas that are blighted with overpasses and turned the overpasses into unique features that really give the neighborhood a different feel. I'm thinking Dumbo, Brooklyn or Old City, Philly. Here is a before and after in Philly:

 

 

They should demolish the Gilbert Ave. overpasses though, and replace it with a roundabout intersection for Gilbert, Eggleston and 8th (Reedy) streets.

and so now you want to demolish overpasses and streets... what is that word people use to describe a woman who can't make up her mind?

 

I think you'll have to elaborate. Did I miss something?

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The Gilbert Ave. Viaduct is a leftover from the 100-year period when trains ran down tracks in the center of Eggleston Ave.  Operations of trains on that stretch were not beholden to Cincinnati ordinances because the strip was owned by the State of Ohio.  It was apparently common practice for the railroad to park trains there and block vehicular traffic for hours at a time. 

 

 

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Not to mention there were numerous streetcar lines that operated over Gilbert Avenue.  The streetcars couldn't be blocked.  ... 

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Those One River Plaza renderings on the Glaserworks site are several years old.  That plan is long dead (and was dead before Skyhouse had even come to fruition). 

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Some quotes from the developer, explaining why they walked away from this: https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2018/06/19/skyhouse-cincinnati-plans-fall-through-again.html

 

"As we went through the process, costs continued to rise and rents in the market did not, which is typical in today’s market in city centers around the country. So, what was a challenge became something that we could not make happen."

 

 

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Is that a knock on cincy?

 

I feel like in most big booming cities rent rises are common because of the lack of supply and demand of housing options.

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Rents nationwide are stagnating. Rents here in NYC actually fell on average the last couple years.

 

I don't think it's a knock more than it's a sign that demand isn't quite yet there for something of that scale. I'd loved to have seen a new tower on the riverfront, but obviously midrises are going up elsewhere so the market can absorb a handful at a time which, at the pace things are going, should liven up downtown pretty dramatically in the coming years.

 

Something will eventually happen here, just not SkyHouse. I was most excited about them since southern developers seem to be able to get large apartment towers to work in almost any market and was hoping this would bring more up to Cincy. Oh well.

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