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Cincinnati: Downtown: The Artistry

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http://www.senhauserarchitects.com/oneriverplaza.html

 

So this is interesting. There were rumors that Senhauser was working with Northpointe (I believe) but couldn't make a tower work at this site.

 

But now they've quite recently added this to their site. And in the past Senhauser only uploads new projects when they're about to become reality. The same thing happened with 8th and Sycamore and Duveneck Square where they uploaded the projects to their website before they were actually announced officially. I'm curious if these are the buildings they couldn't make work, if it's something new entirely, or if after SkyHouse failing Northpointe has come back and is making another go of it.

 

Regardless, these are sexy. This would modernize the riverfront skyline quite a bit. This is a product Cincy needs in my mind.

 

Nice. All the other multifamily projects on his site have been approved or built. Someones got to know something.

 

slide1.jpg

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Nice! These look AWESOME, way better than the Skyhouse renderings (although I'd take a Skyhouse at another location if they want to come back to Cincinnati and try again.)


www.cincinnatiideas.com

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Nice! These look AWESOME, way better than the Skyhouse renderings (although I'd take a Skyhouse at another location if they want to come back to Cincinnati and try again.)

 

No doubt. That rendering is nice. Seems like they wanted to be more creative than usual with the angle.

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Subscriber content:

 

EXCLUSIVE: Cincinnati SkyHouse project could come back from the dead

 

A $90 million luxury apartment project along the Ohio River may be revived if the ownership structure and a deal can be worked out with the city of Cincinnati, the Business Courier has learned.


"It's just fate, as usual, keeping its bargain and screwing us in the fine print..." - John Crichton

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Lol k?

 

I've learned to not get my hopes up with projects happening until they're actually in the air (and even then sometimes it falls through). Until they can truly start construction this will just have to be a "well maybe someday that'll happen" in my head.

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Good news! (although tentative as jmicha[/member] said.) My comment would be if the garage is going to be public that they increase the density around the site even further. 


www.cincinnatiideas.com

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Seems like if they can work a deal out with the Gregory family, this project will break ground. Its interesting to think Novare Group is revisiting the project. Gives me hope that there is still desire from more prominent developers nationally to start working in this city. Might give some of the local guys competition to start upping there game...

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Admirably, they tried to do it the first time without the usual package of handouts from the city.  Sounds like they are coming back with a handout via creative garage "ownership" and the Gregory family putting more skin in the game.  I assume the Port Authority will jump in and magically grant the project exempt from sales tax like it has for the Medpace hotel and other projects that have no business being exempt. 

 

As far as their construction cost increase, they started building these in the South where costs are much cheaper.  The Northeast is the most expensive and we're (Midwest) not far behind.  They were just using that as an excuse to bail. 

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I was scanning a few architects websites and stumbled upon a version of "One River Plaza" that I hadn't seen before, designed by John Senhauser, FAIA (the firm responsible for many homes in Mt. Adams and the new mid-rises on the east side of downtown).

 

Their website only shows renderings of a building I've never seen... no information as to whether this was before or after Skyhouse.

 

http://senhauserarchitects.com/oneriverplaza.html

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^I stumbled upon this as well and posted here awhile back (forget when, time blends together lately).

 

From what I heard when still living in Cincy this is from the deal before SkyHouse that didn't work out. I knew a handful of Senhauser people and they were working on it and the numbers just weren't working for the developers (NorthPointe?). It's unfortunate since they're attractive buildings. Would have been nice to have two towers on that site.

 

Even if SkyHouse moves forward I still think that site should be designed in a way for a second SkyHouse on to be built eventually so there are two towers with a garage in between.

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I was scanning a few architects websites and stumbled upon a version of "One River Plaza" that I hadn't seen before, designed by John Senhauser, FAIA (the firm responsible for many homes in Mt. Adams and the new mid-rises on the east side of downtown).

 

Their website only shows renderings of a building I've never seen... no information as to whether this was before or after Skyhouse.

 

http://senhauserarchitects.com/oneriverplaza.html

 

This was before Skyhouse. There is even a thread on this board in the abandoned project thread for One River Plaza. IT was going to be a phenomenal place if built. It was condo as opposed to apartment. It was proposed around 2006 time frame and leasing up through 2008 when the crash came and killed the project. I reviewed a few contracts for people looking to purchase there and they were pretty close to being able to break ground on the project when the bottom fell out and all the financing dried up. It was so bad that you could nto get financing for a condo project until only 2-3 years ago.

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^This is the One River Plaza / Montgomery Inn Banquet Center thread. It bounces between abandoned and active...


"It's just fate, as usual, keeping its bargain and screwing us in the fine print..." - John Crichton

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Up for vote at Wednesday's City Council meeting:

 

ORDINANCE (EMERGENCY) submitted by Harry Black, City Manager, on 6/26/2017, authorizing the City Manager to execute a Development Agreement with SkyHouse Cincinnati, LLC or another affiliate of the national real estate developer known as Novare Group, pertaining to the development and construction at 601 E. Pete Rose Way in downtown Cincinnati of a mixed-use project containing approximately 352 residential units and an approximately 504- space parking facility, and providing for City assistance to the project in the form of a rebate of a portion of the service payments in lieu of taxes imposed in connection with a 30-year tax exemption for improvements to the property pursuant to Ohio Revised Code Section 5709.41, the amount of which rebate will be performance-based.


"It's just fate, as usual, keeping its bargain and screwing us in the fine print..." - John Crichton

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Up for vote at Wednesday's City Council meeting:

 

ORDINANCE (EMERGENCY) submitted by Harry Black, City Manager, on 6/26/2017, authorizing the City Manager to execute a Development Agreement with SkyHouse Cincinnati, LLC or another affiliate of the national real estate developer known as Novare Group, pertaining to the development and construction at 601 E. Pete Rose Way in downtown Cincinnati of a mixed-use project containing approximately 352 residential units and an approximately 504- space parking facility, and providing for City assistance to the project in the form of a rebate of a portion of the service payments in lieu of taxes imposed in connection with a 30-year tax exemption for improvements to the property pursuant to Ohio Revised Code Section 5709.41, the amount of which rebate will be performance-based.

 

Here's a link to the memo from the Dept. of Dev.

 

http://city-egov.cincinnati-oh.gov/Webtop/ws/council/public/child/Blob/48260.pdf?rpp=-10&m=1&w=doc_no%3D%27201701037%27


“All truly great thoughts are conceived while walking.”
-Friedrich Nietzsche

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Don't get me wrong, I'm happy this project is moving forward, but a 30 year exemption seems kind of crazy, that's such a long time.  I wish we could make these a little less rich, but I guess that is what the sliding scale detail does if it does better.  Good for CPS and the Streetcar

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Until Cincinnati changes the way it collects property taxes any tax exemption isn't actually going to really have any negative effect longterm.

 

I feel 500 extra residents, a national developer choosing Cincinnati as their first Midwest endeavor, and a filled in hole on the riverfront are worth 8.7 million over 30 years.

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Don't get me wrong, I'm happy this project is moving forward, but a 30 year exemption seems kind of crazy, that's such a long time.  I wish we could make these a little less rich, but I guess that is what the sliding scale detail does if it does better.  Good for CPS and the Streetcar

 

It's just an obvious way in which illustrates that the wealthier you are, the lower the rate of your taxation. 

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YEs, I agree with the current way it is, it's worth it.  Still wish the city got more out of it though, and things were different that way...  That's a good chunk of change for the streetcar though and I wonder how much more money CPS has the last 3 years from all this development then they did before?

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After the term of the exemption, the property would potentially generate $2,500,000 in additional property taxes annually.*

 

* Assumes no real estate tax rollback.

 

Haha, even the city administration realizes that the annual property tax rollback is a bad idea, and they're touting the benefits of generating more tax revenue someday...if a future administration is brave enough to end the incredibly dumb rollback policy.

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Would it really be political suicide to kill the rollback policy? It's not like it would be an additional payment people need to make when it dies. It just means in some unknown theoretical future they won't have a reduced property tax.

 

Do other places do this? It seems wildly stupid that this policy even exists.

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Proto-tea partier Phil Heimlich came up with the idea back in 1999.  It was basically a gift to people living in expensive east side homes since people who own small houses elsewhere pay hardly any city property tax to begin with, usually $500/year or less. 

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If you don't want to pay high real estate taxes don't buy expensive property.

 

When I lived in Cincy I worked in Hyde Park. It blows my mind how many people truly think the property tax rate is different in different neighborhoods. So many people in Hyde Park think their rate is higher than those elsewhere and don't realize it's simply that their homes are worth more.

 

Someone needs to push for the elimination of this policy. It's hurting the financial stability of future Cincinnati.

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Sure.  Homeowners are more likely to have a child in the schools, which is where about half of property tax goes.  It's interesting that when apartment developers seek property tax breaks, it's always with the city and county, not the schools.  A luxury tower like this is unlikely to have any residents with kids in the public schools. 

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I wish that fact was made a little clearer. People will often mention schools when these tax breaks come up and don't realize that these properties are still paying their full property tax to the schools which is of a huge benefit.

 

And the streetcar will see huge benefits from these properties. Between this, 8th and Sycamore, Court and Walnut, 8th and Main, etc. we're already seeing what, half a million annually for streetcar expenses just from major projects. How long before the thing is just bringing in more money than it needs? Hopefully we can make it free at that point without annoying political BS.

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Would it really be political suicide to kill the rollback policy? It's not like it would be an additional payment people need to make when it dies. It just means in some unknown theoretical future they won't have a reduced property tax.

 

Do other places do this? It seems wildly stupid that this policy even exists.

 

People are dumb. If the city keeps the tax rate the same (instead of rolling it back) and people get higher tax bills because their property value rose, they will claim that "the city raised taxes!"

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^But people's overall property tax bill still goes up with the city rollback because the city portion of the property tax is only about 30% in most cases. 

 

Also, people don't realize that apartment dwellers *do* pay property tax, just not directly.  Similarly, we all pay the property tax of the stores we shop at. 

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if a future administration is brave enough to end the incredibly dumb rollback policy.

 

*future city councils. Each administration (city manager) has advocated for the elimination of this silly policy but councilmembers are too weak-kneed to end it. Do it the first year after a 4-year election and nobody will remember. It would only raise most folks' taxes by $10-15 per year.

 

I wish that fact was made a little clearer. People will often mention schools when these tax breaks come up and don't realize that these properties are still paying their full property tax to the schools which is of a huge benefit.

 

Schools do not get their full property tax when a property receives an abatement. They will get the property tax from the original value but the full increased value is abated. Schools lose out on this extra revenue when the city gives out property tax abatements. Schools are only spared in TIF districts/project-based TIFs.

 

Additionally, the property tax abatement policy disproportionately affect lower-income homeowners who don't have the funds to make improvements that could possibly get the increased value in their home abated, and they end up shouldering more of the burden from those homeowners who did get abatements.

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if a future administration is brave enough to end the incredibly dumb rollback policy.

 

*future city councils. Each administration (city manager) has advocated for the elimination of this silly policy but council members are too weak-kneed to end it. Do it the first year after a 4-year election and nobody will remember. It would only raise most folks' taxes by $10-15 per year.

 

Starting around 2020, a lot of the property tax abatements in OTR are going to start expiring. Owners of those abated condos may see their city property tax bill double, because their property value has doubled from the circa 2010 valuation. As a result, residents of other neighborhoods may actually see their city property tax bill drop (if the current policy is kept in place). In other words, the total amount of dollars collected would be the same, but the tax burden would be shifted from the city neighborhoods that have seen little or no increase in their property values, to the neighborhoods where the property values have skyrocketed. This would be the perfect time for the city to end the rollback policy, so that the city can finally start to realize additional revenue from all of these new developments instead of just letting the growth of Downtown/OTR simply reduce the rest of the city's property tax bills by a few dollars per year.

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If you don't want to pay high real estate taxes don't buy expensive property.

 

When I lived in Cincy I worked in Hyde Park. It blows my mind how many people truly think the property tax rate is different in different neighborhoods. So many people in Hyde Park think their rate is higher than those elsewhere and don't realize it's simply that their homes are worth more.

 

Someone needs to push for the elimination of this policy. It's hurting the financial stability of future Cincinnati.

 

If you want to kill development or people investing in their existing property, don't balance your budget on the backs of property owners. I know they are working on ways in the statehouse now to control cities ability to bump valuations on commercial properties in the event of sales or changing market conditions around them so that property owners do not have to worry about a huge spike hitting them every few years. This is a good thing for affordable housing in the market

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Property taxes are among the most stable sources of income for municipalities. The fact that most of the city's income comes from income tax is why the city budget is so vulnerable to the feast or famine cycle of the national economy (although with cuts to funding from the state local govt. fund its the difference between small and big deficits these days).

 

Limiting the ability for revaluation limits the ability for the market to determine value and impairs developer interest in neighborhoods. If the price per square foot is not there because valuation is not there then how would a developer or rehab project realize the value of its pro-forma?


“All truly great thoughts are conceived while walking.”
-Friedrich Nietzsche

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If you don't want to pay high real estate taxes don't buy expensive property.

 

When I lived in Cincy I worked in Hyde Park. It blows my mind how many people truly think the property tax rate is different in different neighborhoods. So many people in Hyde Park think their rate is higher than those elsewhere and don't realize it's simply that their homes are worth more.

 

Someone needs to push for the elimination of this policy. It's hurting the financial stability of future Cincinnati.

 

If you want to kill development or people investing in their existing property, don't balance your budget on the backs of property owners. I know they are working on ways in the statehouse now to control cities ability to bump valuations on commercial properties in the event of sales or changing market conditions around them so that property owners do not have to worry about a huge spike hitting them every few years. This is a good thing for affordable housing in the market

 

How is not rolling taxes backwards the same thing you suggested I was saying? There's a world of difference in having a tax rate and sticking with it and arbitrarily increasing valuations to collect more money and balance your budget. Basically every city has a property tax rate and sticks with it. Doesn't seem to be killing development.

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Really hope the building turns out with a nice design. They will have balconies at least (unlike the Walnut and Central Parkway building)!

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The SkyHouse buildings are pretty "nothing" which isn't necessarily a bad thing. They're not amazing architecture but they're also not offensive. Which for the first foray into a building of this scale and use in Downtown in decades, I'll take it.

 

I'm still irked with the site plan though. It's pretty bad. It still would've made more sense in my mind to justify this building to the east, build the garage to the west of the tower, and leave a spot on the western most part of the property for a future second tower if demand is there. I have a feeling this project is going to open Cincinnati up to more southern developers who have all seemingly mastered the "good enough" tower developments which I think could go a long way in Cincinnati. I wonder if they'll wind up regretting not leaving themselves an opportunity for phase 2 in the future.

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If you don't want to pay high real estate taxes don't buy expensive property.

 

When I lived in Cincy I worked in Hyde Park. It blows my mind how many people truly think the property tax rate is different in different neighborhoods. So many people in Hyde Park think their rate is higher than those elsewhere and don't realize it's simply that their homes are worth more.

 

Someone needs to push for the elimination of this policy. It's hurting the financial stability of future Cincinnati.

 

If you want to kill development or people investing in their existing property, don't balance your budget on the backs of property owners. I know they are working on ways in the statehouse now to control cities ability to bump valuations on commercial properties in the event of sales or changing market conditions around them so that property owners do not have to worry about a huge spike hitting them every few years. This is a good thing for affordable housing in the market

 

How is not rolling taxes backwards the same thing you suggested I was saying? There's a world of difference in having a tax rate and sticking with it and arbitrarily increasing valuations to collect more money and balance your budget. Basically every city has a property tax rate and sticks with it. Doesn't seem to be killing development.

 

First, most cities that have significant development outside of NY and San Fran, DC, etc offer property tax rollbacks to spur development in the cities. It makes sense too. Many of these downtown projects cannot be justified without tax incentives. See the Kroger store for example. We are not a city of 6 million people. If the goal is to attract more taxpaying residents who will support local businesses and develop new businesses in the area, then this is how to do it. If it means keeping the tax rate the same as it would be if the property were a parking lot, then the city comes out ahead since instead of a parking lot, you have residential units that help increase the income tax base in the city. Having 500 people paying the 2% income tax is going to bring in more money than the property tax would on that property anyway.

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Property taxes are among the most stable sources of income for municipalities. The fact that most of the city's income comes from income tax is why the city budget is so vulnerable to the feast or famine cycle of the national economy (although with cuts to funding from the state local govt. fund its the difference between small and big deficits these days).

 

Limiting the ability for revaluation limits the ability for the market to determine value and impairs developer interest in neighborhoods. If the price per square foot is not there because valuation is not there then how would a developer or rehab project realize the value of its pro-forma?

 

Commercial property is assessed by a combination of land value and income. Therefore, a vacant 580 building (before turning it into condos) could theoretically be assessed less than say the Tri-State building if it were fully 100% occupied because the income it brings in is more than the 580 building.

You can appeal property taxes all the time and it is part of managing your expenses if you own investment property since taxes are often the largest expense to manage.

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Property taxes are among the most stable sources of income for municipalities. The fact that most of the city's income comes from income tax is why the city budget is so vulnerable to the feast or famine cycle of the national economy (although with cuts to funding from the state local govt. fund its the difference between small and big deficits these days).

 

Limiting the ability for revaluation limits the ability for the market to determine value and impairs developer interest in neighborhoods. If the price per square foot is not there because valuation is not there then how would a developer or rehab project realize the value of its pro-forma?

 

Commercial property is assessed by a combination of land value and income. Therefore, a vacant 580 building (before turning it into condos) could theoretically be assessed less than say the Tri-State building if it were fully 100% occupied because the income it brings in is more than the 580 building.

You can appeal property taxes all the time and it is part of managing your expenses if you own investment property since taxes are often the largest expense to manage.

When the 580 building lost Great American as a Tenant, whatever the building was worth ....it became a lot less valuable. If you lose 80% of your income you should be able to appeal and reduce the value for tax purposes. And yes it is pretty common.

 

Looks like the Skyhouse real estate tax exemption is a partial one, they will still pay RE taxes like the portion to fund the city school system.

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Would love to see this include condominiums. Ohio cities seem to be almost averse to the idea of equity in high rises.

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Would love to see this include condominiums. Ohio cities seem to be almost averse to the idea of equity in high rises.

 

It would be great if you could do some sort of % mix of condos/apartments but I would speculate that the issue with this is financing as you would need to sell a percentage of condos before ground is even broken on construction which is no easy task.

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