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The_Cincinnati_Kid

Cincinnati: Downtown: The Artistry

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Also, anyone else notice in that rendering that CUF/Mt. Auburn moved to Price Hill?

 

Haha. Good catch!

 

Yep. Head scratcher on the palette thing. This could end up looking like GAT's little sis and then we look like Covington's Rivercenter.

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Honestly I'm not worried about it. We have only one tower with blue glass.

 

I actually agree with the disliking of green glass. Green glass never looks good in my professional opinion. For some reason it always winds up looking tacky. So I'm glad that change was made.

 

Blue glass, as prevalent as it is elsewhere, has been very limited in Cincy because we've seen so little new construction. I think it's good to have since many people associate blue glass residential towers on the skyline with a city making progress since there are literally thousands of these buildings with blue glass curtain walls going up in prosperous cities. It may be subliminal, but I think it will help visitors and people driving through see that Cincy is in a period of redevelopment and is building new residential.

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Agreed.  Lever House is a good example of green-blended glass but otherwise, you're correct...green glass can be hideous.

 

Case in point:

 

the-f-f-tower-in-panama-city.jpg


"You don't just walk into a bar and mix it up by calling a girl fat" - buildingcincinnati speaking about new forumers

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Woo boy, pulling out the stops with that example haha.

 

But yes, even that exceptionally tacky design would be greatly enhanced with blue or clear glass.

 

Green glass just screams "suburban office park" to me.

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Yeah, there was supposed to be a Two Lytle Place, and there was supposed to be an Atrium III. 

 

Luken and Cranley exist to channel any and all development to a handful of big-fish-in-small-pond losers. 

 

Jake, isnt' Atrium III the 10 story building in front of Atrium II? Was this supposed to be a larger tower? I have seen the renderings for 2 Lytle Place in years past but I have never seen renderings for an Atrium III tower. Do you have any photos of these renderings?

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I don't want to spread bad information but I remember people saying that Atrium III was going to be where the Queen City Square tower ended up being built.  There is probably a rendering for that building in a newspaper from sometime in the 1980s, but it would take a lot of time scrolling through microfilm to find it. 

 

The really wild thing to think about is that if One Lytle had been built where the East Riverfront Garage is or at the "wedge" site, The Banks as we know it couldn't have been built.  Well not without tearing down a 20+ floor tower.  The Banks plan was only able to come together because of what wasn't built in the 70s and 80s. 

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Well, we _could_ have built the ballpark where the casino is now.

 

I know this is somewhat off-topic, but the thing everyone seems to forget about the theoretical ballpark at Broadway Commons is that the ballpark would not have been able to face Southwest towards the CBD.  It would have had to have faced East Northeast with an outfield view towards 1-71 and Reading Road, which would also place the home plate area (and presumably the main entrance gate) at the foot of the Hamilton County Justice Center. 

 

It would have looked great in aerial shots, but would have been pretty disappointing in person.

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26829817622_e05d17c8fb.jpg

 

You're January 1988 rendering of the 41-story QCS. 1 million sq ft.

 

26650818440_015b76d6c3.jpg

 

The Transportation Building (307 E. 4th) was razed that September for construction that started almost exactly 30 years later. Sound familiar?

 

Mods: I know this is OT so feel free to cross-post/move to the GAT/QCS thread.

 

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I have it on good authority that just prior to Novare Group purchasing the plot for SkyHouse that North American Properties and John Senhauser were collaborating on a tower at that site but couldn't make the finances work.

 

Obviously they wound up abandoning that project and Novare Group is building SkyHouse, but that's strong evidence that we will likely see more Senhauser designed, North American Properties built residential towers going up in the future.

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I have it on good authority that just prior to Novare Group purchasing the plot for SkyHouse that North American Properties and John Senhauser were collaborating on a tower at that site but couldn't make the finances work.

 

Obviously they wound up abandoning that project and Novare Group is building SkyHouse, but that's strong evidence that we will likely see more Senhauser designed, North American Properties built residential towers going up in the future.

 

These guys need to seriously take a look at the parking lots between Eggleston and Broadway behind P&G then!

 

Kinda like this: http://www.urbancincy.com/2015/03/two-big-ideas-to-bring-cincinnatis-urban-housing-boom-to-next-level/


“All truly great thoughts are conceived while walking.”
-Friedrich Nietzsche

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Oh trust me, everyday when I drive down Eggleston to Columbia Parkway I imagine what that area could look like with some Vancouverist development filling those lots and the creation of really great public spaces in the areas underneath all the overpasses. It could be such a great asset to the city and added thousands of units.

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I have it on good authority that just prior to Novare Group purchasing the plot for SkyHouse that North American Properties and John Senhauser were collaborating on a tower at that site but couldn't make the finances work.

 

 

I can confirm this is correct.

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A friend of mine who parks in this surface lot said he was told that he has to find a new place to park by the end of September.

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A friend of mine who parks in this surface lot said he was told that he has to find a new place to park by the end of September.

 

Nice! Let us know if you hear anything else!

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I believe they were hoping to start excavation in September so that makes sense. Seems like they're following their initial timeline they were hoping to achieve.

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I wouldn't assume that. Sometimes long periods of time go by with no news and things don't always happen according to the developer's original schedule.

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Construction costs are a lot higher right now due to the various projects going on around the urban core but I am surprised they did not try to work with the city for gap financing unless they did and the city is not providing any.

 

Either way this is disappointing news.


“All truly great thoughts are conceived while walking.”
-Friedrich Nietzsche

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Construction costs are a lot higher right now due to the various projects going on around the urban core but I am surprised they did not try to work with the city for gap financing unless they did and the city is not providing any.

 

 

Didn't donate to Cranley. 

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This is kind of concerning for the overall state of the construction market. It could be a sign of a longer term slowdown.

 

If there are two tower cranes over DT Cincinnati, you know a recession is imminent. 

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Looks like its time to move this topic back into the Abandoned Projects thread.  :cry:


“All truly great thoughts are conceived while walking.”
-Friedrich Nietzsche

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This is kind of concerning for the overall state of the construction market. It could be a sign of a longer term slowdown.

 

If there are two tower cranes over DT Cincinnati, you know a recession is imminent. 

 

By the time the crane gets there, the financing is locked in and the numbers are pretty much finalized. Given that there is a challenge right now locking in feasible financing can be the indicator of a future slowdown or it could mean that the developer is overleveraged.

 

I would find a project like this to be a great opportunity since it is a clean lot with river/park access and walkable to the rest of downtown. Hope something can be developed there. It is prime location for such a residential development.

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No SkyHouse for Cincinnati

 

skyhouseview01-final*750xx5544-3131-1262-23.jpg

 

The developer that was working to build a $90 million luxury apartment project along the Ohio River is dropping the project.

 

Novare Group, which has been working to develop more than 350 apartment tower at the former Montgomery Inn Banquet Center site since December 2015, dropped the project due to combination of construction costs for the proposed tower coming in significantly higher than its historical costs, as well as financing terms nationwide for multi-family development projects becoming significantly less favorable to development.

 

Jim Borders, CEO of Novare Group in Atlanta, said costs to build a SkyHouse had increased about 20 percent since the group started its last project in 2015.

 

“During the costing process, the costs continued to move. At the same time, lenders and institutional equity investors continued to pull back on construction financing, creating more stress on this project and ones like it,” Borders said in a news release.

 

More below:

http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2016/08/31/no-skyhouse-for-cincinnati.html


"You don't just walk into a bar and mix it up by calling a girl fat" - buildingcincinnati speaking about new forumers

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This is why I don't get excited about project announcements in this town until construction has begun. I've seen so, so many examples of projects either being stalled for years on end or cancelled altogether after initial hype and celebration. Add this one to the list. So frustrating to realize that this is simply the way of life in Cincinnati. We so desperately want and need to turn the proverbial corner, but it just never seems to happen. This news is disappointing but not surprising.

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This is why I don't get excited about project announcements in this town until construction has begun. I've seen so, so many examples of projects either being stalled for years on end or cancelled altogether after initial hype and celebration. Add this one to the list. So frustrating to realize that this is simply the way of life in Cincinnati. We so desperately want and need to turn the proverbial corner, but it just never seems to happen. This news is disappointing but not surprising.

 

This is nothing with Cincy, this is development in general. So many projects are announced and when the reality of financing comes into play they quietly die off and very few actually make it. Look at other cities, I think Nashville had a huge tower project killed and Lexington has a big hole in the ground for a key city block because of an ambitious development that never came through. Louisville has the whole museum sq project tower. This is common in every city.

 

It seems like for every 5 projects that are announced, 4 will die off because the numbers don't add up. Don't get discouraged.

 

It may be the apartment market for high end apartments is getting saturated and demand may start moving toward condos again and we see this project reincarnated as a condo deal. I personally think condos would work better at this location should the market ever allow it.

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Well this sucks.  That tower would have been perfect for that location and would have been a cool addition to the skyline.  Hopefully something gets built in that location, that area of downtown is ripe for development. 

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This is why I don't get excited about project announcements in this town until construction has begun. I've seen so, so many examples of projects either being stalled for years on end or cancelled altogether after initial hype and celebration. Add this one to the list. So frustrating to realize that this is simply the way of life in Cincinnati. We so desperately want and need to turn the proverbial corner, but it just never seems to happen. This news is disappointing but not surprising.

 

I completely disagree. I remember reading about project announcements and then following them with every new details hoping they'll come to fruition. Now, I can't keep up with them and before I know it, they're moving into a "completed" stage. I was really shocked to see this cancelled, but I was shocked because this just doesn't happen anymore - at least not here.

 

Actually, I'd put my money on Cincinnati completing a project like this over a peer city any day of the week.

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I recall some chatter about Senhauser having looked at this site. Any chance they jump back in on it?

 

EDIT: Not likely, as I looked back and they bailed for the same reason. Perhaps, 3rd and BW become more attractive now?

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This is very disappointing, and I am really surprised to see this go away. I know that construction costs are very high right now, partially because of how busy everyone is but still. Masons and steel workers and other specialists can charge pretty much whatever they want right now because of high demand and that is making costs significantly higher than a few years ago when everyone was looking for work. It ebbs and flows, and hopefully this site will get new life as condos or apartments in the future after some of the other big projects are done and demand is still there. Hopefully the 4th and race project and the two Greiwe projects on Main are still looking good and staying on track. I would hate for them to demolish the Pogues garage or Donato's building and then stall out after that point. Even a big ugly parking garage or mostly vacant building is better than a surface lot.

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This is very disappointing, and I am really surprised to see this go away. I know that construction costs are very high right now, partially because of how busy everyone is but still. Masons and steel workers and other specialists can charge pretty much whatever they want right now because of high demand and that is making costs significantly higher than a few years ago when everyone was looking for work. It ebbs and flows, and hopefully this site will get new life as condos or apartments in the future after some of the other big projects are done and demand is still there. Hopefully the 4th and race project and the two Greiwe projects on Main are still looking good and staying on track. I would hate for them to demolish the Pogues garage or Donato's building and then stall out after that point. Even a big ugly parking garage or mostly vacant building is better than a surface lot.

 

We've seen this happen repeatedly in Cincinnati.  LS Ayres was demolished for the 50+ floor Fountain Square West tower, only to see it sit as a parking lot for 10 years before it became the 3-floor Lazarus and now Macy's.  then 5th & Race was demolished in 1999 and it sat as a parking lot for 15 years before Dunhumby went up. 

 

So has the Gregory family actually sold the land?  Or was the sale contingent on the order to proceed on this tower?

 

 

 

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^ Steel prices are at 10 year highs right now because of the collapse of some of the producers in CHina and the crackdown on the dumping that was being done by the producers over there.

 

I think this is where the big cost spike is coming from that was not there even last year at this time.

 

This is different from FSW project from the 80's. That project was being built at a time of dubious financing models and a lot of high yield bonds and at a time where the demand was not there for spec office space. Look at all the other office towers that appeared at that time. FSW was going to compete with all of that and it would have been difficult. THis is a time where there is demand for residential places in the urban setting and that place had the location and there is continually growing demand unlike FSW

 

With that location along the park, it will happen eventually, although I think it will be revived as a condo tower akin to what Miller Valentine was going to build in 2008 instead of apartments. The location can be much more valuable as condos when the market is right.

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Many contractors and subcontractors also haven't re-staffed equivalent to the level of work they now have coming.  That puts extra pressure on timelines and prices. 

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I can also confirm on a really small scale that costs are escalating. In rehabbing an OTR apt building we've noticed pricing for anything from flooring to metalwork that seems crazy - i.e. the most logical explanation is that folks are very busy and are throwing out prices that either make you go away or make huge profits. For example I got a quote on a one story addition to an existing fire escape - basically a metal ladder and a 6 ft platform - for $16,500. And there was even plenty of space for a crane so the install was as easy as it could be. I'd conservatively say that's more than three times what a logical price would be from a modest metal works.

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^ Steel prices are at 10 year highs right now because of the collapse of some of the producers in CHina and the crackdown on the dumping that was being done by the producers over there.

 

I think this is where the big cost spike is coming from that was not there even last year at this time.

 

This is different from FSW project from the 80's. That project was being built at a time of dubious financing models and a lot of high yield bonds and at a time where the demand was not there for spec office space. Look at all the other office towers that appeared at that time. FSW was going to compete with all of that and it would have been difficult. THis is a time where there is demand for residential places in the urban setting and that place had the location and there is continually growing demand unlike FSW

 

With that location along the park, it will happen eventually, although I think it will be revived as a condo tower akin to what Miller Valentine was going to build in 2008 instead of apartments. The location can be much more valuable as condos when the market is right.

 

You are just wrong about steel price's right now.

 

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/commodity/steel

 

Steel traded at 312.50 on Thursday September 1. Steel changed -0.00% during the last week, -0.00% during the last month and +123.21% during the last year. Historically, Steel reached an all time high of 1265 in June of 2008 and a record low of 90 in March of 2016.

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^ compared to 2008 they are lower, yes, but they are on the rise today. I have not looked to specifically into this but mostly have been taking the word from various contractors and developers I work with concerning potential project costs for us going forward. I was mainly referring to the rise in steel from last year to this year at this time. I heard a lot of it has to do with what is going on in China.

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http://www.senhauserarchitects.com/oneriverplaza.html

 

So this is interesting. There were rumors that Senhauser was working with Northpointe (I believe) but couldn't make a tower work at this site.

 

But now they've quite recently added this to their site. And in the past Senhauser only uploads new projects when they're about to become reality. The same thing happened with 8th and Sycamore and Duveneck Square where they uploaded the projects to their website before they were actually announced officially. I'm curious if these are the buildings they couldn't make work, if it's something new entirely, or if after SkyHouse failing Northpointe has come back and is making another go of it.

 

Regardless, these are sexy. This would modernize the riverfront skyline quite a bit. This is a product Cincy needs in my mind.

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