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21 Stories on such a prime location?  It's better than a parking lot!  Hopefully the project will grow to include other things.  Why do we need more parking in the core of the city with the RTA Healthline RIGHT IN FRONT of the buildings door?


 

Jacobs, Hines to build 21-story office tower on Public Square

 

http://blog.cleveland.com/business/2008/05/jacobs_hines_to_build_21story.html

Posted by mjarboe May 28, 2008 11:39AM

 

Richard E. Jacobs GroupThe Richard E. Jacobs group has formed a joint venture with international real estate developer Hines to build a 21-story office tower on Public Square.

The Richard E. Jacobs Group will partner with international developer Hines to build a 21-story office tower on Public Square in downtown Cleveland.

 

The tower, aimed at major downtown tenants considering new office space, could cost about $180 million to build. Construction could start next year, with a possible opening date in late 2011, officials with the Jacobs Group told The Plain Dealer this morning.

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In my view, that is a perfect height for this spot.  I also like the renderring in the PD.

 

I agree. I'm glad they're taking the market into consideration in planning the height of this building.

 

I love the fact that they're going with an international architectural firm, also. I love the rendering in the PD.

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Let's not get ahead of ourselves, I don't see any way this gets built unless they get one of the large tenants still out there. 

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No kidding, it looks one dimensional.  I saw drawings on the old City Vision 2000 or whatever it was called thread, and there was a rendering of an expanded mall over the railroad tracks that actually looked somewhat representative.  I was actually almost fooled and thought it was like a real photo, going, "Wait, when did the mall look like THAT?"  Some time during the 1990s I guess it was decided that all renderings must be either sketchy cartoons or computer-generated blocks of near-translucence in which the primary material for construction appears to be an eerie blue haze

 

21 stories does feel a little shy but as my girlfriend who only exists for the purposes of making this joke tells me all the time, size is mostly about ego anyway.  Still, I was with whomever upthread was hoping for something about the height of Erieview or greater.

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Does anyone think Squire Sanders & Dempsey is a shoo-in for this building because they already are in a Jacob's owned property? (maybe a stretch)

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Does anyone think Squire Sanders & Dempsey is a shoo-in for this building because they already are in a Jacob's owned property? (maybe a stretch)

 

Well, I don't know.  Then Jacobs has a void to fill in their current location. 

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I love the fact that they're going with an international architectural firm, also.

 

International, yes, but not particularly exciting.  Which is fine, I guess.

 

I'm a little disappointed that it will be straight office with no residential or hotel.  Not surprising, but still a little disappointing given the ambitions of Wolstein and Stark.

And I'm absolutely terrified of that parking garage.

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Does anyone think Squire Sanders & Dempsey is a shoo-in for this building because they already are in a Jacob's owned property? (maybe a stretch)

 

Well, I don't know.  Then Jacobs has a void to fill in their current location. 

 

SS&D has already explicitly said they are looking. Don't recall if it was a space crunch, or just end of lease.

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I find it interesting that Stark and Jacob's decide to collaborate on a TIF,and then a 20-ish story office tower jumps one block over from Stark's project, which will now have office held off until the future, to Jacob's lot.  All within a 2 week period.

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"Well, I don't know.  Then Jacobs has a void to fill in their current location."

 

Given that Key Tower has had something like a high-90% occupancy since it was built, I wouldn't be too worried. Even if it's not brand-new, they're on the upper floors of Key and no 20-some story building can offer comparable views. 

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I'm with you Straphanger.  Gensler is far from exciting, but really, this is one spot where it's like, just get something on there. 

The height I like, lets the Terminal Tower remain viewable from any direction.  BP killed the downtown approach from the east, and I'd hate to miss a full view from the Shoreway.

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^ I wouldn't worry about losing the Shoreway view:

 

cleskyshorewayjacobshines.jpg

 

I'm ballpark-guessing this tower will end up around 350 feet - LEED requirements generally include higher floor heights to accomodate underfloor air systems along with fiberoptics and other infrastructure.

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We often complain that the biggest eyesore in all of Cleveland is a parking lot at Public Square. Now we are getting a skyscraper and some of you are complaining? I am actually very happy for this announcement! Surely, a taller building would be nice, but let's focus on something instead of nothing, especially with this economic downturn we're currently experiencing. I think this is great news especially since it will coincide with Stark's big project.

 

Also, Mayday, I am wondering if your rendering does hold true, would it take away that amazing view from the Shoreway where you can see all the way down Euclid Avenue past CSU?? One of my favorite views of anything anywhere is on the Shoreway headed east, first you can see all the way down Superior for a split second, and then you can see at the slanted angle, all the way down Euclid, lined with buildings.

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^ I wouldn't worry about losing the Shoreway view:

 

Now I am worried.  The Shoreway view was beautiful, especially in that shade of golden red with the sun going down, until that Photoshop-looking gray building appeared on the scene! :)

 

Kidding, of course...I think this is great and I don't understand the pessimism.  I think the size will perfectly transition Public Square into Stark's development.

 

And to answer bizbiz...unless the building is built RIGHT up to the W. 3rd. St./Superior Ave. corner, I don't think it will block the view down Euclid:

 

euclidview.jpg

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This comment would fit better on the last page, but I keep saying we need more glass on the skyline.  I'm all for this building.

 

Some more neo-classical, Minority Report-esque buildings like Stokes would be cool, too.

 

:)

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OK, I'll be the bad guy and post the rendering from Photobucket....

 

PublicSquareTower.jpg

 

BTW, I think this building and the Ernst & Young building are the "right" heights. When I mean "right" I think it provides sustainable density to downtown Cleveland. You don't need 50-story monstronsities to restore the lacking street life to our downtown. But if these buildings are built without significant mixed uses on the ground floors (ie: more than a tiny newstand) and rely wholly on internal access to/from structured parking, then there is little chance for the buildings to interact on a pedestrian scale. I hope this building doesn't follow Key Tower's lead in a lack of ground-floor mixed use. Key Tower should be a huge source for pedestrian traffic, but if you stood outside the front doors you'd swear the building was nearly empty -- not nearly full.


"Fascism begins the moment a ruling class, fearing the people may use their political democracy to gain economic democracy, begins to destroy political democracy in order to retain its power of exploitation and special privilege." -- Tommy Douglas, Scottish-born Canadian Baptist minister and the seventh Premier of Saskatchewan

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when the cement on my bridgework cracks and my fake teeth come out you can see all the way to the back of my mouth.  in the clevealand of my mouth, my tongue is euclid avenue.  but that doesn't mean I am going to leave it that way.  of course, in this same metaphor, this rendering is like a grill full of gold teeth.     

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Gross...


"Fascism begins the moment a ruling class, fearing the people may use their political democracy to gain economic democracy, begins to destroy political democracy in order to retain its power of exploitation and special privilege." -- Tommy Douglas, Scottish-born Canadian Baptist minister and the seventh Premier of Saskatchewan

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First let me say that since I no longer live in Cleveland my opinion of this proposal is certainly not as germane to this thread as those still residing there. It seems most of the comments thus far are in favor of a project of this size for this site. With that in mind I say congratulations, you're finally getting rid of that awful surface lot. IMHO this is just simply heart breaking. Since the cancellation of the Ameritrust Center, which I considered a very good KPF effort, I always held out hope that this critical site would be reserved for something truly grand. I even hoped it would be the site of Clevelands first, and probably only, supertall. I understand the idea of sustainable density; however placing this building on this site will not do anything more for downtown street life then if it was 1 block west. Again it's only my opinion but this building would be a better fit for the southeast corner of the "Pesht" development. I'm only speaking of height here. I'll reserve judgement on design for the time when more, and better, renderings are available. I don't like the sound of a 3 story parking podium on the "Pesht" side so seeing some street level elevations would be interesting.

BTW, Jacobs had to partner with Hines for this...really?

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^Part of me agrees with a bit of disapoointment on the scale of the project, but if this tower is built along with what we call Pesht it will really fill up a hole in the heart of the city.

 

Just wondering, how will this building interact with the 55Public Square building

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^ I understand it fills up a hole but it's a small hole and once "Pesht" is done, especially if it included an office tower component on the southeast side, it would seem much smaller. This just does not do justice to the potential of the location.

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It'd be great to see a site plan, but maybe there will be one in tomorrow's paper.  I think it'd be cool to see the building oriented parallel with the main part of the Terminal Tower.  Seems like it'd be pretty boring making it parallel to Ontario and Superior. 

 

Also, I'm interested in how this proposal will interact with 55 Public Square.  Hopefully there's a good degree of variation between the two.

 

The perspective doesn't seem right on the rendering.  While I like the project, my first impression of the design is that it isn't extremely exciting.  I'll withhold my opinion until I see more. 

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hmm i am kind of split right now...

 

on one hand there are PLENTY of places for a new skyscraper to be built in the future if need be, and this kind of density is great for the city. it will transition nicely from public square to WHD.

 

 

on the other hand its disappointing to see this here, as i was expecting more.. and would not mind waiting a few years on this project to see cleveland get an even taller building than key.. could you imagine standing in public square after a building of that kind of height was build there? it would be inCREDibly gorgeous.

 

 

now that i said all that.. i wouldnt mind waiting :D

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from the decent old-stock buildings, to ameritrust tower dreams, to the 20+yr gap to this small, uninspired building? wow, how much more symbolic can one patch of land be to the history of cleveland business as a whole?  :|

 

that said, the rendering is okey doke. i'll settle for it as long as it interacts well with the "pesht" side and there is ground floor retail around it. maybe even a little local cafe with outdoor seating would be nice too. what's really too bad is that this building is too small for any other type of mixed use on the upper floors. hey unless they sneak a cool rooftop bar on top, then all is forgiven!  :laugh:

 

i agree with others that it's real shame to waste thee prime showpiece lot downtown on something so mundane as this uninspired building (at first glance/so far), but as ryansav said above the reality is there are plenty of other places for a big tower someday. so i'll be very happy to see the most embarrassing parking lot in the city gone and a new building on public square.  :clap:

 

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how long have we been waiting for anything on this block?

 

wait any longer and we end up with a renaissance center (the ultimate 700ft street life sucker)

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^ you know what? the ren cen is actually an apt comparison to this building in a sense if they don't include any mixed use stuff on the ground level. i would imagine they will, but who knows? from the rendering it looks like they are ambivilent about it.

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^ you know what? the ren cen is actually an apt comparison to this building in a sense if they don't include any mixed use stuff on the ground level. i would imagine they will, but who knows? from the rendering it looks like they are ambivilent about it.

 

Scale it down (a lot) and you end up with Key Tower, tons of people working inside, however, no reason for those people to leave, or the public to enter.

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i just hope they don't repeat that kind of previously common mistake. after all, it is right on the city's main public square, at the very least it should engage that setting & have some public life in and around it.

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I as most posters am a little disappointed. I was hoping for a signature 70 story mixed use building for this parcel. However since there is so much competion and it appears that we could get all 4 major projects off the ground ( FEB, Stark, Jacobs & K&D Ameritrust ) I would settle for a scaled down version versus nothing. Here's hoping that he could get a couple leases that would allow him to do an expanded project just as FEB did. FEB started as a 220 million dollar project and grew to a 530 million. Here's hoping that this project can do the same. He would have to get leases that would start at the end of 2012 or later if he is to build a larger building and I don't know if any of these tenants could wait an extra  1 or 2 more years for a larger building.

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21 stories?!?!? WTF!!!! is this a joke or somethin? call me shocked from everything i heard and expected......wow. THIS IS THE MOST IMPORTANT LOCATION FOR A TOWER IN DOWNTOWN CLEVELAND AND WOULD BE PERFECT I MEAN PERFECT FOR A NEW SIGNATURE TALLEST.

 

where else would you build a new tallest? this is RIGHT ON PUBLIC SQUARE

 

proves that cleveland cant think BIG and wants to trap itself in this mentality

 

ridiculous

 

jacobs has been plannin this sh!t forever and been sittin on the lot for YEARS and the best he can do is a rinky dinky little tower? if this gets built im gonna be pissed. he had a plan (multiple...im not talkin about the ameritrust tower) for somethin 1300 ft and now this?

 

id rather this be a parking lot than a 21 story building on that site

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After thinking about this, I feel that it is much much better than tossing up another 65-story tower. Please, let's be real. Cleveland does not have the office market at this point to digest a such a huge tower. We'd probably see another 15 years of no-office-growth if we over built during another recession. Sure, the skyline pumps up our ego. But honestly, Key Tower does nothing for street life. Image if we had three 20-story towers interspersed throughout the WHD--that would create so much more life and give downtown a much more active feel.

 

Here are my thoughts:

-a huge tower would put a huge dent into the local office market. This would stunt future mixed-use developments.

-it would create some serious traffic issues because of the parking garage that it would bring along with it--let's be honest, Jacobs is not counting on future workers to take the bus and ride the rapid.

-tall towers tend to provide a lot of amenities that keep occupants from leaving the building.

-tall towers make us feel proud

-tall towers look good during the NBA and MLB playoffs

-tall towers suck the life out of other parts of downtown

-demanding a 50+ skyscraper is the short-sighted and egotistical way to go. A bunch of 20-story and 10-story office buildings will do a lot more for street life than a tower ever will.

-tell me, how does the street level retail look around Key Tower??

 

This is the best case scenario. Architecturally, it allows Key and Terminal to stand out. I think that our taller buildings are already too concentrated in one area. I'd love to see one pop up in PHS some day--we need a little balance to our skyline. When they are concentrated as they currently are, it makes the rest of downtown look miniscule.

 

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We can bitch and  complain all we want but:

[*]The vacant lot will be filled

[*]This is a rendering not a final design

[*]As with the FEB, who knows if there will be "add ons" that enhance the project.

[*]Your complaining about "height" on Public Square, there is no need for all the towers to be centered around Public Square.  There are other places where a 30 story plus tower can be constructed.

[*]Where any of you in the board room discussing this project?  NO!

 

It is what it is, and until any of us here can finance and construct a tower, this is what we're getting...so get over it now.

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^well I was waiting for 216's post....I could have probably written it myself base on his previous posts...he sure is a size junkie...I guess what I find "ridiculous" is that the height of a building any where in the city is an indictment against it...or for that matter that the citizens of the city have any control (or really say other that of the design committees and planning commission) in regards to how a private developer decides to spend his millions of dollars on his property...I said it before and I will say it again...it is "real easy" for certain people to spend other people's money.

 

I certainly would like to see more renderings...my real concern right now (other than the fact that I would have preferred more of a mixed use for the site) is with the parking garage on the west side of the building...this is going to turn the east side of West Third into a pretty barren stretch of sidewalk form Superior to Lakeside.

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