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Cleveland: Sherwin-Williams new headquarters

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I think it could be something similar to Cleveland's Amazon bid, where nothing is relatively open to the public. You already have some inside info on it from top execs, and the person that says its off the record is just trying to cover their traces.

 

I believe they want a building taller than key. They're a growing 500 company, with recent acquisitions. I'm 100% sure they will either use the prior Ameritrust design, or go for a cheese grater / fractal design like in London and Sanfransico. I can see those designs picking up popularity since the Middle East is finished with Burj Khalifa and in the process with Jeddah 'Kingdom' Tower. If they do need a building smaller than key, there's already a rendering showing a scaled back version of Ameritrust. What could have been may just be a reality.

Edited by tastybunns

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16 minutes ago, G00pie said:

i just really hope they do something, Turning the landmark into apartments i think would be an awesome addition in that area as well.. 

I just hope they do something too... It wouldn't surprise me if this doesn't happen for awhile though.

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This site is very quick to cut off- topic postings; I guess there’s no way to cut off posts based on assumptions and out-of-date whisperings. But then again, the rumors get us all excited ....

 

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36 minutes ago, CLE_Millennial said:

I just hope they do something too... It wouldn't surprise me if this doesn't happen for awhile though.

 

Especially after seeing this....

 

Sherwin-Williams: Minneapolis 'Like a second headquarters' after Valspar deal

https://www.bizjournals.com/twincities/news/2018/11/12/sherwin-williams-minneapolis-like-a-second.html

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"Fascism begins the moment a ruling class, fearing the people may use their political democracy to gain economic democracy, begins to destroy political democracy in order to retain its power of exploitation and special privilege." -- Tommy Douglas, Scottish-born Canadian Baptist minister and the seventh Premier of Saskatchewan

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Don't let that headline bother you @CLE_Millennial. Instead, there is reason for much hope.


"Fascism begins the moment a ruling class, fearing the people may use their political democracy to gain economic democracy, begins to destroy political democracy in order to retain its power of exploitation and special privilege." -- Tommy Douglas, Scottish-born Canadian Baptist minister and the seventh Premier of Saskatchewan

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I am going to write this in a way to keep people out of trouble which means it won't be as specific as many of you want. But I am aware of two firms that provide services to construction projects and they are working hard on this project. One of them is clearly working on a SHW HQ. Today I was reminded how much they are working on it. The other is probably working on a SHW HQ. I say probably because the source said the firm is working on a very large office development on the west end of downtown but that's all they could say. They wouldn't ID the client. Regarding that information, I asked the source if it was Weston and he said no because it was his understanding that the Weston project is inactive. That points to the Jacobs lot, and a friend who worked with SHW in 2016 on the HQ project said it was going on the Jacobs lot. He was in a very good position to know. Today's source about the "very large office development" was confident the project was going to happen considering how much work has already been done. For all I know, these two sources could be taking about two separate large office developments but I find that very hard to believe. 

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"Fascism begins the moment a ruling class, fearing the people may use their political democracy to gain economic democracy, begins to destroy political democracy in order to retain its power of exploitation and special privilege." -- Tommy Douglas, Scottish-born Canadian Baptist minister and the seventh Premier of Saskatchewan

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No they said office building. It could be nuCLEus because the source was confident about at least some of it happening. But the geography doesn't work out unless the person misspoke about it being the west side of downtown. The person said that, whatever this very large office building is, "it is happening."

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"Fascism begins the moment a ruling class, fearing the people may use their political democracy to gain economic democracy, begins to destroy political democracy in order to retain its power of exploitation and special privilege." -- Tommy Douglas, Scottish-born Canadian Baptist minister and the seventh Premier of Saskatchewan

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Don't know, but the other source said a couple months ago that the SHW HQ would be "40-plus stories and 1 million square feet."


"Fascism begins the moment a ruling class, fearing the people may use their political democracy to gain economic democracy, begins to destroy political democracy in order to retain its power of exploitation and special privilege." -- Tommy Douglas, Scottish-born Canadian Baptist minister and the seventh Premier of Saskatchewan

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With able room to expand a fortune 500, there is an obvious need for 'Extra Room'. If SW decides to add some extra floor-space they can rent floors out to other companies in need. Do tell about the 50+. So if they're working on blueprints, this probably means Ameritrust is out of the picture. I'm more than expecting something vibrant that screams paint and chemicals. Everything is about new age architecture am i right?
I'll try my best to gather up what my thought is. Stay tuned in the Cleveland Architecture thread.
 

 

P.S. sorry I cant embed the links, they don't show up for me. I've taken it up with @MayDay about the issue to notify @richNcincy.

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Yes, the annual SHW sales meeting is typically in January but the last time I looked (a couple months ago), I couldn't find any information about it. But if there is one, it would explain people working long hours on this. It's as if they're trying to meet a deadline. 


"Fascism begins the moment a ruling class, fearing the people may use their political democracy to gain economic democracy, begins to destroy political democracy in order to retain its power of exploitation and special privilege." -- Tommy Douglas, Scottish-born Canadian Baptist minister and the seventh Premier of Saskatchewan

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44 minutes ago, tastybunns said:

P.S. sorry I cant embed the links, they don't show up for me. I've taken it up with @MayDay about the issue to notify @richNcincy.

 

It should auto embed the links.  It took me a few times of copying and pasting until it finally worked. 

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While my first source maintains that his firm is working hard on a new SHW headquarters, my second source says: the "very big office project downtown" isn't downtown at all. And it's not even very big. Nor is it breaking news. It's Medical Mutual's renovation of the former American Greetings offices in Brooklyn. Sorry folks. But allow me to be more angry than you because my source gave me sloppy info and got me excited for no reason at all. I shared with you what I thought was good information. Turns out my second source wasn't accurate. Fortunately I don't run into that source very often. Still hoping my first source is accurate.


"Fascism begins the moment a ruling class, fearing the people may use their political democracy to gain economic democracy, begins to destroy political democracy in order to retain its power of exploitation and special privilege." -- Tommy Douglas, Scottish-born Canadian Baptist minister and the seventh Premier of Saskatchewan

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I think it's pretty good. I trust him and talk with him much more frequently. 

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"Fascism begins the moment a ruling class, fearing the people may use their political democracy to gain economic democracy, begins to destroy political democracy in order to retain its power of exploitation and special privilege." -- Tommy Douglas, Scottish-born Canadian Baptist minister and the seventh Premier of Saskatchewan

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I must confess that all of this speculation is rather exciting, even laying a foundation for fervent optimism, but ....

Having had many conversations about this matter with a friend who is in a mid-level management position at S/W, he has indicated that there has been no talk of the company building a new skyscraper HEADQUARTERS.

 

As much as I would love to see something constructed on the same scale as the Key Tower, I would not get my hopes too high. I think that even if the company proceeds with a new headquarters building it certainly would likely not eclipse the size and scale of Key Tower.

 

On a side note, I would love to see the original plans for the defunct Ameritrust Tower, or even the plans for the Progressive Insurance Tower  utilized.

 

However, we can still DREAM BIG, can't we.

ameritrustcenterkpf2.jpg

progressivegehryllp.jpg

Edited by John D. Baumgardner
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Welcome John. I spoke a few months ago with the brother of a man who is an upper-level executive at SHW who was on a committee three years ago to plan a new HQ tower. However his brother says he has not heard anything new since the Valspar deal was announced. It's possible he's either lying, that his committee's past work is still still applicable and thus doesn't need to be significantly updated/refined, or everything is still on the shelf gathering dust because there's nothing going on.

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"Fascism begins the moment a ruling class, fearing the people may use their political democracy to gain economic democracy, begins to destroy political democracy in order to retain its power of exploitation and special privilege." -- Tommy Douglas, Scottish-born Canadian Baptist minister and the seventh Premier of Saskatchewan

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8 minutes ago, KJP said:

Welcome John. I spoke a few months ago with the brother of a man who is an upper-level executive at SHW who was on a committee three years ago to plan a new HQ tower. However his brother says he has not heard anything new since the Valspar deal was announced. It's possible he's either lying, that his committee's past work is still still applicable and thus doesn't need to be significantly updated/refined, or everything is still on the shelf gathering dust because there's nothing going on.

Thank you for the WELCOME, KJP!

 

It is my hope that Sherwin-Williams will eventually construct a unique and dynamic headquarters here, hopefully in the form of a skyscraper. I rely upon the knowledge of the friend I mentioned in my original post, but it is very possible that he isn't entirely privy to any potential details of a new headquarters. All he has said to me is that there has not been any discussion in meetings with other departmental head figures.

 

We can only hope that something WILL come to fruition. 

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What's amazing is that SHW did A LOT of work on this new tower in 2014-16. They organized a management committee to determine space needs, not only for the headquarters but also for the R&D facility (the R&D facility is not referenced or even alluded to from here on out in this message) and to oversee the next steps. They did their site alternatives analysis. They talked to downtown real estate property owners and eventually settled on one site. Once they had that, they talked to a number of civil engineering firms and settled on one. They talked to a number of architectural firms and settled on one. They talked to developers but I am not aware if they had settled on one. They shared renderings with a limited number of people for a 40-story tower on the Jacobs Lot. They began talking to the city, including to the planning director and downtown Councilman Kerry McMormack. They were ready to go public at the Sherwin Williams National Sales Meeting Jan. 22-27 at the 63-acre Gaylord Palms Resort & Convention Center in Kissimmee, FL.

 

All of that summarizes information gathered from perhaps a dozens sources over the last few years.

 

And then Valspar happened.

 

What has happened since Valspar? I wrote about it here: http://neo-trans.blogspot.com/2018/10/is-sherwin-williams-ready-to-paint-sky.html

 

SHW is now more spread out than ever among Greater Cleveland office locations. SInce Valspar, SHW had to open up a fourth office location in this area. Their latest office location is on Hinckley Industrial Parkway in Cleveland. They extended their lease at the Skylight office tower for another three years.

 

I will name one source here, mainly because he lied to me. I've known SHW spokesman Mike Conway for 20 years, since he worked as the spokesman at GCRTA. When he went on to be Key Corp's spokesman, he got me into their executive dining room on the 55th floor to take pictures for Sun Newspapers. But I appreciated him doing that for me. Now, however, he lied to me at SHW. I asked him two months ago if SHW had rekindled its plans for a new SHW HQ tower now that the company has fully integrated Valspar into its company. He responded "We never planned an HQ tower then and we're not planning one now." I asked him about all the articles from 2.5 years ago about a new HQ tower. He replied something to the effect of "That was just real estate brokers trying to boost business. There was nothing to it. I told the reporters that two years ago." And with that, I know he lied. There was a lot to it 2.5 years ago. What he said next surprised me. "This is all off the record" I asked why. He said "because there's nothing to write." You know why he said it was off the record? Because he didn't want me to write anything. And he didn't want his quote "There is nothing going on" to be reprinted sometime in the future when it becomes clear that SHW really had something going on with its HQ project after all.

Edited by KJP
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"Fascism begins the moment a ruling class, fearing the people may use their political democracy to gain economic democracy, begins to destroy political democracy in order to retain its power of exploitation and special privilege." -- Tommy Douglas, Scottish-born Canadian Baptist minister and the seventh Premier of Saskatchewan

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On 12/15/2018 at 12:11 PM, John D. Baumgardner said:

I must confess that all of this speculation is rather exciting, even laying a foundation for fervent optimism, but ....

Having had many conversations about this matter with a friend who is in a mid-level management position at S/W, he has indicated that there has been no talk of the company building a new skyscraper HEADQUARTERS.

 

As much as I would love to see something constructed on the same scale as the Key Tower, I would not get my hopes too high. I think that even if the company proceeds with a new headquarters building it certainly would likely not eclipse the size and scale of Key Tower.

 

On a side note, I would love to see the original plans for the defunct Ameritrust Tower, or even the plans for the Progressive Insurance Tower  utilized.

 

However, we can still DREAM BIG, can't we.

ameritrustcenterkpf2.jpg

progressivegehryllp.jpg

That Gehry building would have been a show stopper for this town!

 

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It's a question worth asking. SHW's debt is pretty high right now after it bought Valspar. It's possible that SHW may want to wait to pay down its debt further before adding new debt from construction a new HQ tower and new R&D facility that could exceed $1 billion total. Unless SHW doesn't want to own these new facilities to keep the debt off its books. Many companies don't like to own their HQs and other office buildings.


"Fascism begins the moment a ruling class, fearing the people may use their political democracy to gain economic democracy, begins to destroy political democracy in order to retain its power of exploitation and special privilege." -- Tommy Douglas, Scottish-born Canadian Baptist minister and the seventh Premier of Saskatchewan

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Probably not for another couple of weeks.


"Fascism begins the moment a ruling class, fearing the people may use their political democracy to gain economic democracy, begins to destroy political democracy in order to retain its power of exploitation and special privilege." -- Tommy Douglas, Scottish-born Canadian Baptist minister and the seventh Premier of Saskatchewan

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Sherwin-Williams sells100 of it's retail stores and pockets an easy $150 million. I am just wondering if this move is to generate capital towards building that much anticipated and elusive new World headquarters??

 

Thoughts anyone?

 

https://www.crainscleveland.com/real-estate/sherwin-williams-sets-150-million-property-sale

Edited by John D. Baumgardner

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On 12/16/2018 at 12:38 PM, shack said:

That Gehry building would have been a show stopper for this town!

 

Both of these would have been great; 1200' AmeriTrust Tower and the 850' Progressive Tower.  Remember base portion of the AmeriTrust Tower was going to have a Hyatt Hotel with a ballroom topped parking garage on the west side of W 3rd Street.

 

The AmeriTrust Tower would still be the tallest between NYC and Chicago if had gone up.

Edited by Oxford19

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1 hour ago, John D. Baumgardner said:

Sherwin-Williams sells100 of it's retail stores and pockets an easy $150 million. I am just wondering if this move is to generate capital towards building that much anticipated and elusive new World headquarters??

 

Thoughts anyone?

 

https://www.crainscleveland.com/real-estate/sherwin-williams-sets-150-million-property-sale

KJP's source has got to know something.

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Yes, but the information doesn't make any sense. I don't think I have anywhere near close to the full picture to understand what's going on right now.

Edited by KJP

"Fascism begins the moment a ruling class, fearing the people may use their political democracy to gain economic democracy, begins to destroy political democracy in order to retain its power of exploitation and special privilege." -- Tommy Douglas, Scottish-born Canadian Baptist minister and the seventh Premier of Saskatchewan

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4 hours ago, John D. Baumgardner said:

Sherwin-Williams sells100 of it's retail stores and pockets an easy $150 million. I am just wondering if this move is to generate capital towards building that much anticipated and elusive new World headquarters??

 

Thoughts anyone?

 

https://www.crainscleveland.com/real-estate/sherwin-williams-sets-150-million-property-sale

I believe the company has a lot of debt to service, this could be related to that. 

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Wondering how many more times I'm going to see these old renderings of The AmeriTrust and Progressive Towers in my lifetime because  every time I see them, memories flood back of dread similar to remembering certain moments in Cleveland sports history such as "The Drive" or "The Fumble". When I first heard news on the Ameritrust Tower I could barely believe what I was hearing. A 1,200 ft tower going up in Cleveland just after hearing what seemed like a week before The Society Tower proposal going public! Even though I was excited, I never got the design of the AmeriTrust Tower and to this day has me scratching my head. It looked funky and bulky. Not a fan bringing back from the dead either tower, it's time to move on. A sleek-slender tower I'd prefer for that lot but not sure how a 1,200 foot tower would mesh with the rest of the skyline but if a company such as a Sherwin-Williams would want to build at that height I'd be OK with it I suppose. 😉

 

Edited by Mildtraumatic

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5 hours ago, John D. Baumgardner said:

Sherwin-Williams sells100 of it's retail stores and pockets an easy $150 million. I am just wondering if this move is to generate capital towards building that much anticipated and elusive new World headquarters??

 

Thoughts anyone?

 

https://www.crainscleveland.com/real-estate/sherwin-williams-sets-150-million-property-sale

 

They need some cash.  As of Sept 30, cash balance was $181 million, current portion of long-term debt due $311 million. Total debt $9.6 billion.  They are earning good money, but the business is cyclical - so earnings may be down in 2019 if housing slows - and they don't want to borrow more. Sucker punch: $12 billion in goodwill and intangibles. Debt to equity: 4 to 1. In short, they need to deleverage their balance sheet some.


There's nothing wrong with optimism, as long as you don't get your hopes up.

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So funny how there’s a synchronicity to how people think sometimes. Just last night, after processing the down-sizing of Nucleus, I thought of how being a fan of downtown Cleveland construction could be like being a Cleveland sports fan. Growing up with years of sports futility- championship dreams leading at best, to heart- breaking near misses followed forever by  cruel video replays. It reminded me of the excitement of bold, Manhattan-like skyscraper visions - Ameritrust, Progressive and now, Nucleus -skyline transformers that  might’ve been -but for a series of unfortunate events - all now relegated to the “cancelled projects” file. I thought the comparison might resonate for others but after logging in, I found a very similar observation had just been made (All credit to Mildtraumatic.) Does anyone have  a rendering of what Cleveland would’ve looked like with all 3 aforementioned towers in  the current skyline?  I know it’s pure fantasy - but it would be fun to see.  And yeah, , a 1200 foot tower might be a bit much in our town - but it would be a nice aesthetic problem to actually have.  I just don’t happen to think we’ll see that from SW- or anybody else in the next decade or more. Key Towers’ reign wil probably be a very long one.  

Edited by CleveFan

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I'm probably in the minority here, but I'd rather infill the downtown parking craters with midrise buildings and get more life in the neighborhood first, and then build another big tower in 20 years.  (It will probably be 20 years before Jacobs decides to do anything with that lot anyway.)

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22 minutes ago, Foraker said:

I'm probably in the minority here, but I'd rather infill the downtown parking craters with midrise buildings and get more life in the neighborhood first, and then build another big tower in 20 years.  (It will probably be 20 years before Jacobs decides to do anything with that lot anyway.)

 

No, I agree. One of the successes of Pittsburgh - and granted they have geographic limitations that promote density - is that they have dozens of buildings in the 10-20 story range. For some reason, I feel like we as Clevelanders would rather 1 80 story tower get built instead of 4 20 story buildings. 

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40 minutes ago, Foraker said:

I'm probably in the minority here, but I'd rather infill the downtown parking craters with midrise buildings and get more life in the neighborhood first, and then build another big tower in 20 years.  (It will probably be 20 years before Jacobs decides to do anything with that lot anyway.)

 

Which is why I'm pleased about the new philosophy behind the nuCLEus redesign. It offers a much more realistic chance of getting built.

 

Sure, I'd love to see supertall get built on the Jacobs Lot. And we almost got it again in 2016. But if a developer said he's going to build the 21-story office building that Jacobs/Hines proposed in 2008, I'd be OK with that. Clearly Sherwin Williams doesn't have the cash reserves right now to pull the trigger on a new HQ (especially one that they would own). My understanding is that they are considering lease options on new offices. Some of the space needs I'm hearing don't jibe with their existing locations around town, which is confusing. So I can only assume that the lease/space needs/options being bandied about are for a new location. But I don't know that for certain. Like I said above, I'm not getting information on the full picture. Because SHW nearly pulled the trigger on a new HQ in 2016 and are an even larger company now, I think it's safe to say they clearly want a new HQ, but the company's financial position post-Valspar isn't ideal for jumping in with both feet.

Edited by KJP

"Fascism begins the moment a ruling class, fearing the people may use their political democracy to gain economic democracy, begins to destroy political democracy in order to retain its power of exploitation and special privilege." -- Tommy Douglas, Scottish-born Canadian Baptist minister and the seventh Premier of Saskatchewan

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