Jump to content
KJP

Cleveland: Sherwin-Williams new headquarters

Recommended Posts

Except the Weston development is stalled. I'm pretty confident the Jacobs lot is probably more likely at this point.

 

Ken, what are the specific problems with the Weston project at this point?  First thing I have ever heard about it being "stalled".  Is it simply financing or something else?  I know it hasn't moved forward (despite the ridiculous time line when first announced which nobody on this board believed) but that can be said in regards to numerous announced projects around town.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm taking a real estate finance class at CSU (I know some of you have taken it) and using this site for my final project. It's basically a development proposal where we study the market, acquisition and building costs, and potential rents, and figure out if a project is financially feasible. I'm thinking I'm not going to reinvent the wheel here and just try to build some class A office space with ground floor retail. I know the paradigm right now is hotel/office/retail/apartment like NuCLEus but that might make it too complicated for the purposes of this assignment. I will probably try to do about what Jacobs proposed back in 2008 (21 stories, half a million sqft) and see if the fundamentals have shifted to make it more feasible.

 

Do you guys have any input? From the research put out from some of the brokerages that I've read it seems that there is definitely demand for Class A downtown but that rents are not high enough yet to justify construction costs. Luckily this is fictional so I will have access to public subsidies.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Cool project. Would it be too much to pose some options such as three different building heights and uses -- all-office at 21 stories, office+extended-stay suites hotel at 30 stories, and office+extended-stay suites hotel+condominiums at 45 stories. With or without these options, I'd be curious to learn the potential subsidy requirements for each.


"Fascism begins the moment a ruling class, fearing the people may use their political democracy to gain economic democracy, begins to destroy political democracy in order to retain its power of exploitation and special privilege." -- Tommy Douglas, Scottish-born Canadian Baptist minister and the seventh Premier of Saskatchewan

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It might not be so bad to try different proposals if I can get good estimates of rents and construction costs which might not be so hard. The part I'm worried about most is the market study and projecting potential vacancy/occupancy, simply because I don't have experience with that. If I find it's going smoothly I can take a look at making it more of a mixed used project. I will definitely report back with my findings.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

^ Well this is intriguing. Hopefully we'll be seeing a Sherwin-Williams Tower there :)

 

 

hmm, its funny that the jacobs site was once to be for mm, if anything.

 

however, the new sw office building plans on the backburner since 1990 on their landmark/big lebron poster lot are now considered to be way too small. that sounds like a bigger tower is needed. so maybe it will be sw on the jacobs site after all?

 

that would be awesome and no doubt would spark redevelopment of the warehouse district lots.

 

i wonder what would happen with landmark and the landmark lot though?

 

this was the one time landmark lot plan for sw:

 

Gateway%2Bat%2BLandmark-crop1.jpg

 

 

literally anything would be better than this pathetic idea jacobs once threw out there back in 2008  >:(

 

jacobsproposal-s.jpg

 

 

 

more:

http://neo-trans.blogspot.com/2016/03/downtown-clevelands-next-office-tower.html

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

^ Well this is intriguing. Hopefully we'll be seeing a Sherwin-Williams Tower there :)

 

Based off a brief convo I had with a guy at Sherwin this week, it doesn't sound like this will happen anytime in the near future. The focus will be on "paying down debt from the Valspar acquisition" before making any moves on building a new HQ.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

^ Well this is intriguing. Hopefully we'll be seeing a Sherwin-Williams Tower there :)

 

Based off a brief convo I had with a guy at Sherwin this week, it doesn't sound like this will happen anytime in the near future. The focus will be on "paying down debt from the Valspar acquisition" before making any moves on building a new HQ.

 

I've also heard that S-W hasn't fully sorted out the organization of the new, combined company so it doesn't have a good idea of what its office and research space needs will be going forward. And it may be a year or two before S-W brass know for certain.

 

Too bad, as it seemed almost a lock that S-W was bound for the Public Square lot before the Valspar acquisition. Everyone from Councilman McCormack to Planning Commission staff to S-W mid-level managers were hinting that they were close to announcing a new tower and that the Jacobs lot was their favored site. With interest rates rising, I don't understand why it makes sense to wait to incur new debt until existing debt is paid down. In fact, S-W doesn't even have to own a new office tower at the outset. It could be a lease-to-own deal similar to what Geis did with Cuyahoga County's new administrative building. That way it would keep the debt off S-W's books.


"Fascism begins the moment a ruling class, fearing the people may use their political democracy to gain economic democracy, begins to destroy political democracy in order to retain its power of exploitation and special privilege." -- Tommy Douglas, Scottish-born Canadian Baptist minister and the seventh Premier of Saskatchewan

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just to pile on re:SW. I met a pretty high-up commercial leader from there at an event a few weeks ago. They stated that "not that many' people have come/ will come to Cleveland from Valspar. When I asked about office space and plans for anything new, they looked at me like I had a fish on my head.


And they reckon that the last thing she saw in her life was
Sting, singing on the roof of the Barbican

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've been working on a few 3d modeling sketches on Google Sketchup. Maybe I can find one big enough for Jacob's Lot. Or if I don't maybe I can mock one up.

Anyone know the dimensions of the lot? What Sq ft. are they looking for?

I don't like tossing old renderings and concepts of what could have been, just look towards the future for once.

Might not be as tall as this rendering but It wont be a waste of space, trust me. ;)

 

Maybe I should have went into architecture...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The Jacobs lot measures 215 feet by 235 feet.


"Fascism begins the moment a ruling class, fearing the people may use their political democracy to gain economic democracy, begins to destroy political democracy in order to retain its power of exploitation and special privilege." -- Tommy Douglas, Scottish-born Canadian Baptist minister and the seventh Premier of Saskatchewan

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Public Square's Big 3 seen today and the missing 4th....

 

30706363_10209673301784198_6537273437562172742_n.jpg?_nc_cat=0&oh=b69d1332fd8251318431fd022f31355b&oe=5B295B07

 

30726501_10209673302064205_2288446749076081384_n.jpg?_nc_cat=0&oh=b736803aa147bc0179a20333d9aa74cd&oe=5B6B342F

 

30708329_10209673302264210_476073844713203575_n.jpg?_nc_cat=0&oh=b8f9645bf476372eadf41ffa66edc1c0&oe=5B69F6BA

 

30707338_10209673302464215_3642228620578920799_n.jpg?_nc_cat=0&oh=503d4d17d4c661a23f0974db9fa9305e&oe=5B5BC176


"Fascism begins the moment a ruling class, fearing the people may use their political democracy to gain economic democracy, begins to destroy political democracy in order to retain its power of exploitation and special privilege." -- Tommy Douglas, Scottish-born Canadian Baptist minister and the seventh Premier of Saskatchewan

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It’s an embarrassment that the Jacoba lot remains a parking lot after all these years

 

True, but I'd rather still have a parking lot than something forced in there, not worthy of the location. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

^ absolutely -- its not just any lot, it is thee prime lot in town and it deserves something fitting of the site. i think the jacobs family understands that well enough. i don't expect an ameritrust tower, but something hopefully significant and nice someday.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't think we should let our heads get too big though. It's an important space but at the end of the day buildings are just buildings. I'd rather something decent go up than sit around waiting for another 30 years for something perfect. Put up a conservatively designed office tower, nothing too flashy or experimental but something that will age well, with some retail on the bottom and be done with it. If they want to mix in residential or hotel like Stark is trying to do, fine.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If HB469 -- the tax credit for transformational mixed-use developments -- passes, it might apply to a tower on this site. The big caveat is that a project must cost at least $400 million. It also must feature at least one building that's 20 stories or taller, possess mixed uses (including parking), and be on a site that's 7 acres or less. So would a Jacobs Tower cost $400 million or more?

 

Consider that the Jacobs lot measures 50,525 sf. A reasonable construction cost figure for an office skyscraper on this expensive site is about $250 per square foot (the Playhouse Square tower is $225/sf). So a Jacobs lot tower would have to measure 31.667 stories tall with no setbacks to reach that $400 million figure. The tower will probably have setbacks so something in the 40-story range, with modest setbacks, would allow this tower to achieve the $400 million figure and make it eligible for the transformational tax credit.

 


"Fascism begins the moment a ruling class, fearing the people may use their political democracy to gain economic democracy, begins to destroy political democracy in order to retain its power of exploitation and special privilege." -- Tommy Douglas, Scottish-born Canadian Baptist minister and the seventh Premier of Saskatchewan

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

For a class A officer tower, it costs more than residential. I did some research and talked to a few local people and found $300 per sf to build, plus another $50-$100 per sf to fit tenants into the property. (Still trying to figure out who typically pays for that)

 

But those figures I believe are only for leasable space... I don't think you're going to get the full 50,000 sf per story. E&Y, the most recent comparable, is 20 (21?) stories and only half a million square feet which is roughly 25,000 sf per story. I've been trying to figure out how much the E&Y tower cost Scott Wolstein but it seems to be kept under wraps. I think around $150 to $200 million. $400 million is a lot. Does Bob Stark (who I think is a force behind this tax credit legislation) anticipate NuCLEus being $400 million?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The most recent article estimates Stark's nuCLEus project would cost $500 million to $540 million.

 

At $300 per square foot, a Jacobs tower of reasonable height (30-50 stories) should easily achieve the $400 million figure and be eligible for the tax credit -- if it passes as written.


"Fascism begins the moment a ruling class, fearing the people may use their political democracy to gain economic democracy, begins to destroy political democracy in order to retain its power of exploitation and special privilege." -- Tommy Douglas, Scottish-born Canadian Baptist minister and the seventh Premier of Saskatchewan

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

For a class A officer tower, it costs more than residential. I did some research and talked to a few local people and found $300 per sf to build, plus another $50-$100 per sf to fit tenants into the property. (Still trying to figure out who typically pays for that)

 

If the proposed tax credit is used, the developer could afford to pay for that and be a big marketing incentive for prospect tenants.


"Fascism begins the moment a ruling class, fearing the people may use their political democracy to gain economic democracy, begins to destroy political democracy in order to retain its power of exploitation and special privilege." -- Tommy Douglas, Scottish-born Canadian Baptist minister and the seventh Premier of Saskatchewan

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

For a class A officer tower, it costs more than residential. I did some research and talked to a few local people and found $300 per sf to build, plus another $50-$100 per sf to fit tenants into the property. (Still trying to figure out who typically pays for that)

 

If the proposed tax credit is used, the developer could afford to pay for that and be a big marketing incentive for prospect tenants.

 

Is the Weston site under 7 acres in the WHD?  I know different thread but just wondering if the credit could potentially jump-start that project as well.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Weston site is 6 acres (if they don't include the parking lots across West 3rd from the Justice Center).


"Fascism begins the moment a ruling class, fearing the people may use their political democracy to gain economic democracy, begins to destroy political democracy in order to retain its power of exploitation and special privilege." -- Tommy Douglas, Scottish-born Canadian Baptist minister and the seventh Premier of Saskatchewan

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just to pile on re:SW. I met a pretty high-up commercial leader from there at an event a few weeks ago. They stated that "not that many' people have come/ will come to Cleveland from Valspar. When I asked about office space and plans for anything new, they looked at me like I had a fish on my head.

 

My source said they actually were looking at building a new HQ from scratch and had narrowed it down to 3 sites:  The Flats, near CSU, and an unidentified "other" downtown site (I wouldn't be surprised if this was the Jacobs property).  After the Valspar acquisition, this was put on hold, but they expect to resume the new build plan in 4 years.  Conservatively, it could be up to 8 years hence that a new building is complete and ready for occupancy.  That said, it's nice to know that SW is serious about a new building.  What would become of the Landmark Towers at that point?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My source said they actually were looking at building a new HQ from scratch and had narrowed it down to 3 sites:  The Flats, near CSU, and an unidentified "other" downtown site (I wouldn't be surprised if this was the Jacobs property).  After the Valspar acquisition, this was put on hold, but they expect to resume the new build plan in 4 years.  Conservatively, it could be up to 8 years hence that a new building is complete and ready for occupancy.  That said, it's nice to know that SW is serious about a new building.  What would become of the Landmark Towers at that point?

 

Why, the destiny of all Class C office buildings downtown is either residential, hotel, and perhaps a little bit of office or restaurant/retail, of course! :)


"Fascism begins the moment a ruling class, fearing the people may use their political democracy to gain economic democracy, begins to destroy political democracy in order to retain its power of exploitation and special privilege." -- Tommy Douglas, Scottish-born Canadian Baptist minister and the seventh Premier of Saskatchewan

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Is there still a market for Class C - or are the people who used to rent cheap downtown offices all working from home now?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Is there still a market for Class C - or are the people who used to rent cheap downtown offices all working from home now?

 

My building is Class C in practice  ::) ???

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Still practicing law YABO713[/member] ? When is practice over and when are you going to get it right??

 

But seriously, yes there is always a market for Class C offices. But the vacancies for that market are very high. It's tightened up a bit with all of these conversions, but it's still up about 15 percent or so IIRC.

 

 


"Fascism begins the moment a ruling class, fearing the people may use their political democracy to gain economic democracy, begins to destroy political democracy in order to retain its power of exploitation and special privilege." -- Tommy Douglas, Scottish-born Canadian Baptist minister and the seventh Premier of Saskatchewan

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My source said they actually were looking at building a new HQ from scratch and had narrowed it down to 3 sites:  The Flats, near CSU, and an unidentified "other" downtown site (I wouldn't be surprised if this was the Jacobs property).  After the Valspar acquisition, this was put on hold, but they expect to resume the new build plan in 4 years.  Conservatively, it could be up to 8 years hence that a new building is complete and ready for occupancy.  That said, it's nice to know that SW is serious about a new building.  What would become of the Landmark Towers at that point?

 

It shouldn't surprise anybody if they built in the flats. They own a large amount of land along the water around their R&D building. Probably be more challenging to build in the flats, but its a much larger space than the Jacobs lot.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ottawa Square

File this under: Fantasy

 

These drawings are of a plan I had for the Weston Block development from a decade ago. I called it Ottawa Square. It would replace all surface parking lots with housing and put giant City-owned parking garages behind existing buildings and infill. The Perry monument on Lakeside would be repurposed as a fountain in the center of Ottawa Square, offering a human scale public space just west of Public Square. 

40AB8D72-66AC-4F54-9875-0E11BE12CE06.jpeg

E23C61F6-75AA-4511-B5C5-097DF16ED1A3.jpeg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Given the value of the land, something more vertical makes more sense.

 

BTW, can someone tell me why the Jacobs Group doesn't market their Public Square lot? If you put http://jresgroup.com/property-listing/ into this website: http://web.archive.org/web/20151001000000*/google.comhttp://jresgroup.com/property-listing/ you will see they've never marketed at any time in the past five years of this web page's history. The only Public Square property they've marketed was Key Tower. And that ended earlier this year, long after Millennia Companies bought the building.


"Fascism begins the moment a ruling class, fearing the people may use their political democracy to gain economic democracy, begins to destroy political democracy in order to retain its power of exploitation and special privilege." -- Tommy Douglas, Scottish-born Canadian Baptist minister and the seventh Premier of Saskatchewan

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My favorite "just ruin my day" topic.

 

When I die and go to heaven (fingers crossed) I am counting on God revealing  to me the answer to the great mystery: why Cleveland has had a surface parking lot on Public Square for more than 25 years.  He is also going to let me know who killed Marilyn Shepard. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I can't tell you for certain, but there is hope that our long local embarrassment will come to an end.

  • Like 3

"Fascism begins the moment a ruling class, fearing the people may use their political democracy to gain economic democracy, begins to destroy political democracy in order to retain its power of exploitation and special privilege." -- Tommy Douglas, Scottish-born Canadian Baptist minister and the seventh Premier of Saskatchewan

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Come on KJP, don't do  that to me.

 

You know I still owe you a big sloppy kiss in connection with the Playhouse Square lot.  If the Jacob lot is developed in the near  future per your post God knows what I will do to you.:classic_biggrin:

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Don't tell the others. They might get jealous. 

  • Like 1

"Fascism begins the moment a ruling class, fearing the people may use their political democracy to gain economic democracy, begins to destroy political democracy in order to retain its power of exploitation and special privilege." -- Tommy Douglas, Scottish-born Canadian Baptist minister and the seventh Premier of Saskatchewan

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Restore formatting

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...