Cleveland: Downtown: Sherwin-Williams Headquarters

[Florida Guy]

We all want to see that shiny new building but let’s not forget the human factor here. I’ve been through a similar situation. Knowing that there is a chance that you may have to relocate or even worse, lose your job is not a good feeling. It can consume you if you let it. I have empathy for the employees of SW.

Edited October 18, 2019 by Florida Guy

[NR]

Man I really hope that "So there isn't much new to report since my last article came out, except that a high-level source reiterated that SHW will have a much larger presence downtown." means the main tower is at least 1,001ft or taller.

 

Not that I don't appreciate just the importance of them staying in downtown Cleveland,  or that I wouldn't love any new major building(or buildings) they add to our CBD, density or skyline.  The reason I'm so hopeful that they build a 1000+ft building is because this is CLE's best chance for the foreseeable future at having a landmark, skyline shattering, national/international statement tower in our city -- adding Cleveland to the thousand-foot club.

 

I don't see any apartment/condo buildings reaching that height, at least for a VERY long time.  I don't see any businesses, big enough to build something that size, looking to build in downtown in the foreseeable future. Our best chance would be Progressive, but that is unlikely - at least for a long time.    However, future apartment buildings; condo buildings, office buildings and other businesses(big, but not SHW big) would be able to add more 300-900ft density buildings in the near future.

 

This is our best chance at joining the 1,000ft club, and I really hope Sherwin Williams makes it happen for Cleveland!

[simplythis]

Channel 5 Story. https://www.news5cleveland.com/news/originals/a-look-inside-the-sherwin-williams-search-for-a-new-world-headquarters

[seaswan]

Just out of curiosity, is a 1000+ foot tower realistic? This is the first I've been following the situation, and that just seems really, really huge, even for a company like SW. There are just so few in the US, it seems weird that one would get built in Ohio (this is coming from a cincinnatian). They seem to be fairly concentrated in 5/6 giant cities.

[Oldmanladyluck]

^^^That's jumping the gun, isn't it?  SW having a larger presence could mean multiple buildings, like the campus mentioned in one of KJPs articles.  Though I would love for a 1000 ft building on Public Square, I don't think anyone would be against SW filling in the Parking Lot District, finally once and for all. 

 

 

But I agree with you that unless Cleveland can churn out several more multi-billion dollar companies, that SW's development could be the only potential 1000+ft building for the foreseeable future.

[Clefan98]

5 minutes ago, seaswan said:

Just out of curiosity, is a 1000+ foot tower realistic? This is the first I've been following the situation, and that just seems really, really huge, even for a company like SW. There are just so few in the US, it seems weird that one would get built in Ohio (this is coming from a cincinnatian). They seem to be fairly concentrated in 5/6 giant cities.

 

They're looking for 1.8M sq ft of office space. To put that in perspective, Key Tower is ~1.5M sq ft and stands at 947'

[tastybunns]

@Clefan98 If they're building 1.8 million sq ft it can easily be spread across Jacob's and Weston, as it is a larger footprint. I'm sure that number factors in with the campus style development as much as the scraper is involved. So ideally we're looking at something equally in height but with wide R&D buildings on the ground facade.

Edited October 18, 2019 by tastybunns

[KJP]

I took "larger presence downtown" to mean that SHW currently occupies about 1.1 million sf downtown, between Landmark, Skylight and Breen. Expanding to 1.8 million sf is a larger presence downtown. Also, it isn't obvious that SHW is headquartered in Cleveland's CBD, if you travel around downtown. They are low-key, maybe even a little stodgy, at times. The only way you'd know SHW is downtown is by seeing the big sign on Breen, not on their HQ building of 89 years. I could be wrong, but my understanding from "larger presence downtown" is that you will no longer wonder if SHW has a visible, meaningful presence here. And like I've said before, their HQ building may not exceed 40 stories. But I hope it will be unique in design, at as one source described it. Everyone has their opinions of "unique" means when it comes art/design.

[SgtBarone]

Totally agree. If you were a casual observer or an out of town visitor, you would really have to look to see that SW is headquartered downtown.  With the Landmark building, there’s not even a logo on the outside by the front door. 

[Enginerd]

37 minutes ago, simplythis said:

Channel 5 Story. https://www.news5cleveland.com/news/originals/a-look-inside-the-sherwin-williams-search-for-a-new-world-headquarters

Is John Boyd paying these outlets to interview him?!?! He can’t possibly be the only corporate relocation “expert” out there. Dear god

[Clefan98]

21 minutes ago, tastybunns said:

@Clefan98 If they're building 1.8 million sq ft it can easily be spread across Jacob's and Weston, as it is a larger footprint. I'm sure that number factors in with the campus style development as much as the scraper is involved. So ideally we're looking at something equally in height but with wide R&D buildings on the ground facade.

 

 

Yes, I realize that. Just saying theoretically, it's possible.

[shack]

1 hour ago, SgtBarone said:

Totally agree. If you were a casual observer or an out of town visitor, you would really have to look to see that SW is headquartered downtown.  With the Landmark building, there’s not even a logo on the outside by the front door. 

Kind of reminds me of the low key Swagelok enterprise. You have to squint to see the tiny logo if by chance you drive by in Solon.

[ASPhotoman]

1 hour ago, SgtBarone said:

Totally agree. If you were a casual observer or an out of town visitor, you would really have to look to see that SW is headquartered downtown.  With the Landmark building, there’s not even a logo on the outside by the front door. 

Right? It's sad when the Rocket Mortgage Fieldhouse has more SW signage then SW themselves

[jam40jeff]

2 hours ago, seaswan said:

Just out of curiosity, is a 1000+ foot tower realistic? This is the first I've been following the situation, and that just seems really, really huge, even for a company like SW. There are just so few in the US, it seems weird that one would get built in Ohio (this is coming from a cincinnatian). They seem to be fairly concentrated in 5/6 giant cities.

 

I don't know what SW is considering, but why would it be out of the question?  People probably said the same when Society (now Key) was built.

[Gnoraa]

49 minutes ago, ASPhotoman said:

Right? It's sad when the Rocket Mortgage Fieldhouse has more SW signage then SW themselves

It's probably all a matter of opinion of course, (and I know off topic) but sometimes I hate how much cities, particularly in the mid-west plaster their skyscrapers with signage and branding.  Take a look at Houston, Dallas, Atlanta etc.....they don't do this (for the most part) and I almost feel like it adds some class and tastefulness to their skyline view.  But that's just me.

[ASPhotoman]

42 minutes ago, Gnoraa said:

It's probably all a matter of opinion of course, (and I know off topic) but sometimes I hate how much cities, particularly in the mid-west plaster their skyscrapers with signage and branding.  Take a look at Houston, Dallas, Atlanta etc.....they don't do this (for the most part) and I almost feel like it adds some class and tastefulness to their skyline view.  But that's just me.

Yeah, but at least have a brand presence at street level. As far as I know, I've never seen SW signage anywhere except for their technology center. 

[StapHanger]

1 hour ago, ASPhotoman said:

Right? It's sad when the Rocket Mortgage Fieldhouse has more SW signage then SW themselves

 

The most obvious and cool and instantly iconic thing would be a convincing old-school style "neon" roof sign on the Breen center (facing the west side). Could be the SW logo with simple animation showing the red paint coming out of the can onto the globe.  After like 10 years people would stop remembering it was new and it would be like our own Citigo sign. 

[LlamaLawyer]

5 hours ago, KJP said:

There's so much I would love to say but can't. Maybe in 20 years or so.   I don't know why Morikis thinks that he can keep a lid on such huge news that will affect thousands of people's lives. I understand that real estate negotiations and legal matters should be conducted in confidence, and I've not reported on the substance of those except that they are occurring. So things are probably going to stay quiet until SHW actually does make a decision.

 

So there isn't much new to report since my last article came out, except that a high-level source reiterated that SHW will have a much larger presence downtown.

 

The next thing we'll likely hear will be from public records, such as notices of disclosure about property acquisitions. Thankfully, SHW being a publicly traded company means it has to be transparent when it comes to pending major capital expenditures. 

 

@KJP, why do you think SHW will acquire the property prior to construction starting? 

[surfohio]

12 minutes ago, StapHanger said:

 

The most obvious and cool and instantly iconic thing would be a convincing old-school style "neon" roof sign on the Breen center (facing the west side). Could be the SW logo with simple animation showing the red paint coming out of the can onto the globe.  After like 10 years people would stop remembering it was new and it would be like our own Citigo sign. 

Something like the HM sign (Conde Nast building NYC) with the SW logo could look really iconic. 

[marty15]

I like building branding and signage. Adds color and life to the skyline. 

[Cleburger]

2 minutes ago, marty15 said:

I like building branding and signage. Adds color and life to the skyline. 

 

I don't mind it if subtle.  Like the little "key" on top of Key Tower.   Anything more than that gets garish.  

[KJP]

41 minutes ago, LlamaLawyer said:

 

@KJP, why do you think SHW will acquire the property prior to construction starting? 

 

It is possible that a developer/property owner could always own an HQ for SHW, but there is no incentive for SHW doing this. SHW's free cash flow is nearly $2 billion per year. They can afford to buy property and build a $1 billion+ HQ+R&D facility as a current liability (that possibility blows my mind, BTW).

 

Beside, look at SHW's recent history with their Cleveland facilities. In 1985, after they became the dominant occupant of the Landmark Office Buildings, they bought out and dissolved the 25-25-25-25% ownership partnership of the other current/former tenants, namely Republic Steel/LTV, Sohio and Erie-Lackawanna/Conrail. SHW the proceeded to renovate the building. So, as the dominant user of a building, SHW exerted ownership and caretaking responsibilities. It wasn't until 2014 that they outgrew the Landmark.

 

And for a less-telling example, SHW also owns the Breen Center, site of SHW's founding and ever-expanding first factory. One can and probably should argue that, of course SHW is going to own this site. They been there since the end of the Civil War. But they don't need to own 9+ acres along the riverfront. Yet they do, just in case they might need it someday. Who knows. Maybe someday has arrived.

Edited October 18, 2019 by KJP

[PaxtonMarley]

4 hours ago, Enginerd said:

Is John Boyd paying these outlets to interview him?!?! He can’t possibly be the only corporate relocation “expert” out there. Dear god

In the media maelstrom between local blogger Ken Prendergast and used car salesman look-a-like John Boyd, personally my money's on Ken.

[mack34]

And now Channel 5 is getting into the game 

 

https://www.news5cleveland.com/news/originals/a-look-inside-the-sherwin-williams-search-for-a-new-world-headquarters

[Frmr CLEder]

DCA's "Let's Build Something" video has an interesting rendering at the end. It shows a penciled-in version of a new PS high-rise, on the Jacob's lot, that appears to be about 1000 ft.

 

 

Edited October 18, 2019 by Frmr CLEder

[NewtoCLE]

59 minutes ago, PaxtonMarley said:

In the media maelstrom between local blogger Ken Prendergast and used car salesman look-a-like John Boyd, personally my money's on Ken.

 

when you look at Boyd's bio on his company page, it says this among other things:

 

"John's expert perspectives are routinely featured in the global news media, including The Wall Street Journal, Fortune, Forbes, The Financial Times, Bloomberg, NPR, Fox News, CNN, The Globe and Mail, CNBC, Tencent Media, Al Jazeera Media Network, Industry Week, USA Today, and others."

 

This guy is a professional commentator. All he has to do is say something somewhat coherent and the media will keep going to him for quotes. He is a soundbite factory. Being quoted begets more opportunities to be quoted. This is how the media game works. The soundbite industrial complex. It's a thing. And it's how lazy journalism works. 

 

My money on Ken. Always.

[mack34]

Channel 5 used the same guy and the same quotes.  I just don't get it.

[Sapper Daddy]

35 minutes ago, Frmr CLEder said:

DCA's "Let's Build Something" video has an interesting rendering at the end. It shows a penciled-in version of a new PS high-rise, on the Jacob's lot, that appears to be about 1000 ft.

 

 

I thought the same & posted it in the official I love Cleveland thread.  In fact there’s a whole lot of drawings of high rise developments

[NorthShore647]

Here is a screen cap from the end of the DCA video

 

I wouldn't read too much into it, but presumably DCA would know about the new headquarters design before most. They do have a few quick clips with (who i think is) DickPace and the Cumberland development on the lake, so its not like all of the sketches in the video are for theoretical developments. 

Edited October 18, 2019 by NorthShore647

[X]

I kind of doubt that those are indicative of anything actually in process.

[Oldmanladyluck]

22 minutes ago, NorthShore647 said:

Here is a screen cap from the end of the DCA video

 

I wouldn't read too much into it, but presumably DCA would know about the new headquarters design before most. They do have a few quick clips with (who i think is) DickPace and the Cumberland development on the lake, so its not like all of the sketches in the video are for theoretical developments. 

 

Good catch. I see Nucleus and the Flats phase 3 as well.

[marty15]

26 minutes ago, NorthShore647 said:

Here is a screen cap from the end of the DCA video

 

I wouldn't read too much into it, but presumably DCA would know about the new headquarters design before most. They do have a few quick clips with (who i think is) DickPace and the Cumberland development on the lake, so its not like all of the sketches in the video are for theoretical developments. 

@KJP is naming off all those outlines in his head. 

[Larry1962]

4 hours ago, ASPhotoman said:

Yeah, but at least have a brand presence at street level. As far as I know, I've never seen SW signage anywhere except for their technology center. 

 

Actually SHW had its name on the mural hanging on the Landmark Building several years ago. Saying something about their LOVE for their Hometown CLEVELAND...

 

Another reason I think they will STAY IN CLEVELAND!!

 

Unless of course they get just a great over the top INCENTIVES DEAL from another city/state that they would be breaking their duties to their shareholders.

Edited October 19, 2019 by Larry1962

[CleveFan]

i thought the DCA video was extremely well done - a nice acknowledgement of Cleveland’s great past with high aspirations for its future. But regarding the SW building(s) design- - our best published source (by far) on the subject has already said  not to expect more than a 40 story tower for the tallest building. That can still be a major presence on the skyline - but it won’t be  a Supertall and clearly  not as high as the “almost” Supertall Key Tower (which is just 40 feet short of that status ). Like many, I’m a tower lover and understand that this may be CLE’s only real shot at That exclusive club  in our lifetimes (younger and older). But just in terms of the cityscape- -Key Tower comes close to doubling the height of even the  current 4th tallest (Erieview). Key draws the eye strongly towards the Public Square “big 3” and somewhat deemphasizes the skyline as a cohesive whole. As a comparative example, When I look at the Pittsburgh skyline, it seems much more dense and cohesive - but Cleveland actually has 142 high rises - more than Pittsburgh. It’s the proportionality - and the number of 500’ plus towers that is the difference.  Anyway, I’m just thinking that SW’s new HQ might be more complimentary as a 600-700 foot tallest tower with a significantly high second building contributing Some height and more density, especially if it’s on the Westin lot.

Edited October 19, 2019 by CleveFan
Continuity and accuracy

[MyTwoSense]

13 minutes ago, CleveFan said:

i thought the DCA video was extremely well done - a nice acknowledgement of Cleveland’s great past with high aspirations for its future. But regarding the SW building(s) design- - our best published source (by far) on the subject has already said  not to expect more than a 40 story tower for the tallest building. That can still be a major presence on the skyline - but it won’t be  a Supertall and clearly  not as high as the “almost” Supertall Key Tower (which is just 40 feet short of that status ). Like many, I’m a tower lover and understand that this may be CLE’s only real shot at That exclusive club  in our lifetimes (younger and older). But just in terms of the cityscape- -Key Tower comes close to doubling the height of even the  current 4th tallest (Erieview). Key draws the eye strongly towards the Public Square “big 3” and somewhat deemphasizes the skyline as a cohesive whole. As a comparative example, When I look at the Pittsburgh skyline, it seems much more dense and cohesive - but Cleveland actually has 142 high rises - more than Pittsburgh. It’s the proportionality - and the number of 500’ plus towers that is the difference.  Anyway, I’m just thinking that SW’s new HQ might be more complimentary as a 600-700 foot tallest tower with a significantly high second building contributing Some height and more density, especially if it’s on the Westin lot.

 

It's an optical illusion because our Towers are built around the exterior of Public Square.  If Public Square did not exist, the sky line would be dramatically different.

[Frmr CLEder]

For those decorators interested in supporting the hometown favorite....

 

https://westmagnoliacharm.com/best-sherwin-williams-gray-paint-colors/blog/

Edited October 20, 2019 by Frmr CLEder

[Frmr CLEder]

On 10/19/2019 at 12:33 AM, MyTwoSense said:

 

It's an optical illusion because our Towers are built around the exterior of Public Square.  If Public Square did not exist, the sky line would be dramatically different.

It's also the result of the fact that for most of the previous 100 years, no building was permitted to exceed the height of Terminal Tower. The Sohio (BP, 200 PS) building is a prime example. It wasn't until Ameritrust and Society (the largest banks at the time) squared off to build the tallest building in the city that those restrictions were eased. Either would have dwarfed all others, but obviously Society (Key) won the fight. Prior to then, most of the tallest commercial buildings were ligned up along the East 9th Street Financial District. Now Key towers above all others and skews the skyline towards PS.

Edited October 20, 2019 by Frmr CLEder

[Clefan98]

How Sherwin-Williams HQ might reshape downtown

 

 

https://www.crainscleveland.com/manufacturing/how-sherwin-williams-hq-might-reshape-downtown

[cfdwarrior]

^ I like the 60 stories or more comment  

 

[marty15]

“A 30-year veteran of studying downtown Cleveland soils for multiple skyscraper projects, Duane Schreiber, president of geotechnical engineering consulting firm David V. Lewin Corp. of Cleveland, said the 59-story Key Tower required caissons 220 feet deep to reach bedrock for a foundation. The 32-story Hilton Cleveland Downtown went down 120 feet.

Low-rise buildings may use a concrete mat as the foundation, but taller buildings require the more expensive caissons.

"You could do 25 to 30 stories near Public Square with a concrete mat foundation," Schreiber said. "If you want to do more than that there, you have to go to caissons, which causes a big jump in cost. You may as well go a lot higher (such as 60 stories) to make it worthwhile."

[John D. Baumgardner]

20 minutes ago, marty15 said:

“A 30-year veteran of studying downtown Cleveland soils for multiple skyscraper projects, Duane Schreiber, president of geotechnical engineering consulting firm David V. Lewin Corp. of Cleveland, said the 59-story Key Tower required caissons 220 feet deep to reach bedrock for a foundation. The 32-story Hilton Cleveland Downtown went down 120 feet.

Low-rise buildings may use a concrete mat as the foundation, but taller buildings require the more expensive caissons.

"You could do 25 to 30 stories near Public Square with a concrete mat foundation," Schreiber said. "If you want to do more than that there, you have to go to caissons, which causes a big jump in cost. You may as well go a lot higher (such as 60 stories) to make it worthwhile."

 

@marty15, many thanks for this.

[X]

1 hour ago, John D. Baumgardner said:

Hmmmmm ... I also cannot read the article in Crain's. Once you reach your reading limit, you are prevented from accessing anything without a subscription.

 

Perhaps, another forum member will COPY AND PASTE the article for us? It's been done multiple time's before.

 

No, that's copyrighted material.  You can post a paragraph or two, enough to get the gist of the article for forum discussion, and must include a link and proper reference to the source.  Full articles will be taken down.  You may have seen press releases or something like that copied and pasted.  Those operate under different rules.

 

Trust us, we've gone though it before.  It wasn't fun.

[Boomerang_Brian]

1 hour ago, John D. Baumgardner said:

Hmmmmm ... I also cannot read the article in Crain's. Once you reach your reading limit, you are prevented from accessing anything without a subscription.

 

Perhaps, another forum member will COPY AND PASTE the article for us? It's been done multiple time's before.

 

 

Hey let’s not get our generous site owners in trouble by violating copyright laws. Please keep copy/paste of copyrighted material to fewer than three paragraphs. 

 

(Journalists deserve to make a living too.)

 

edit: oops @X beat me to posting. 

Edited October 20, 2019 by Boomerang_Brian

[Frmr CLEder]

The article does imply however that Weston has been sitting on their lots since 2015, awaiting an offer from SW.  I hope the PS site comes to fruition but the river site could also serve SW's needs for several reasons.

 

"One potential theory among insiders is that Weston sat on the site — meanwhile putting apartments in The Standard nearby — because another opportunity came up. Some believe that was Sherwin-Williams' rumored search for a new corporate headquarters, which ended up being put on hold by its purchase of Valspar Inc. in 2017."

Edited October 20, 2019 by Frmr CLEder

[Boxtruffles]

18 hours ago, John D. Baumgardner said:

Hmmmmm ... I also cannot read the article in Crain's. Once you reach your reading limit, you are prevented from accessing anything without a subscription.

 

Perhaps, another forum member will COPY AND PASTE the article for us? It's been done multiple time's before.

 

Evidently, there's a mentioning of a 60-story skyscraper in the Crain's piece ... Judging by another forum member's comment up-thread.

 

 

If a potential 40-story tower averaged 15ft per floor (including a crown?), I believe similar 60-story building on the PS lot could easily top 900ft. For perspective, Key is 57 stories...

[West153]

Crains is only $10 for a year with a .edu email address!

[Larry1962]

^And they sometimes also have a $ 5 sale too...

Edited October 21, 2019 by Larry1962

[MayDay]

Off-topic, but posting this to be 100% crystal clear - under no circumstances should anyone EVER post a copyrighted article OR a workaround to a media outlet paywall, etc. 

 

In September 2009, the Admins were given a 'cease and desist' by the eight largest newspapers in Ohio regarding posts containing entire articles (and images) that were copy/pasted from the respective websites. Our first thoughts were 'it's the end of the forum as we know it'.  

 

While I typically don't toot my own horn, yours truly negotiated with the media group to get us time to get the entire forum compliant - at that time it was 114 pages of threads and 188,000 posts. They gave us one month.  Thanks to an amazing group of forum volunteers, every thread and post was scrubbed, edited to compliance (an intro paragraph followed by the link directing to the article on the original site - paywall or not) and brought back online. If it weren't for me negotiating and the countless hours from the volunteers, the forum you're enjoying wouldn't exist. With that ...

 

One more time to make sure the message is clear - under no circumstances should anyone EVER post a copyrighted article OR a workaround to a media outlet's paywall, etc. 

 

[htsfan]

Appears that the Jacobs Public Square surface parking lot is getting resurfaced today.  Bunch of trucks out there now stripping off the asphalt.  Seems strange to be investing in parking lot upgrades, especially since the asphalt didn't appear to be that bad.  Let the speculation ensue...

[jws]

25 minutes ago, htsfan said:

Appears that the Jacobs Public Square surface parking lot is getting resurfaced today.  Bunch of trucks out there now stripping off the asphalt.  Seems strange to be investing in parking lot upgrades, especially since the asphalt didn't appear to be that bad.  Let the speculation ensue...

 

Investing money in a parking lot that is about to be destroyed is a quintessential Cleveland vibe.