Cleveland: Downtown: Sherwin-Williams Headquarters

[NYC Boomerang]

4 hours ago, inlovewithCLE said:

I would love to hear more about that. I know it was a footnote in KJP’s larger story but I would love to hear more about Eaton regretting their move to the suburbs. It was dumb when they did it and it’s dumb now. At this point though, the question is what could they do about it? I do hope though that SHW sees that and doesn’t make the same mistake

 

Likewise.  I doubt they can do anything about it at a reasonable cost.  I have to imagine they are committed to that site long-term.  I'm sure it's a beautiful building with appealing public subsidies and free parking.  But that's the short-term view that Eaton chose to take.  An option that appealed to senior management and short-term-minded shareholders, at the expense of young talent and long-term shareholder value. 

 

The funny/sad thing is that Mayor Jackson and city government always get the blame for what happened (they get blamed when they don't give away enough subsidies and get blamed when they give away "too many" subsidies (Nucleus)).  Eaton never gets any heat.  I think the City of Cleveland may be getting the last laugh.  Obviously, it would have been best for both sides if Eaton stayed in the city.  

 

I think one reason why Cleveland has lagged other rust-belt cities economically is the lack of corporate vision and corporate loyalty to the urban core.  So many of these corporations who fled to the burbs succumbed to selfishness and short-term shareholder value accretion.  There is a deep-seated mistrust between city government and the corporate world in Cleveland that rivals any other city (and there should be blame given on both sides).  This intertwines in with the whole regionalism question and Greater Cleveland's deep divisions and unwillingness to work together for the greater good of all parties.  As a result, not only does the general populous suffer but corporations suffer as well.  If we can't work together to compete as effectively as possible, there will be no rising tides.  

 

Eaton is in the past.  We need to move on and focus on SW and others.  SW certainly seems to be much more civic-minded, conscientious and cautiously forward-thinking.  Let's hope that mentality wins out and raises the tide for all of us.     

Edited May 21, 2019 by NYC Boomerang

[mrnyc]

^ woah re that skyline render! ok --- and hail to the yes with the sizing, but i hope it would be a more creative tower than that lol.

 

i know everyone wants the public square site and of course sw is probably the perfect company for it, but alternatively i would be happy to see the area behind/below tower city built way up and down to the river. it's a tough to work with site and any buildings would be lower-rise, but perhaps working with dan gilbert it could be very uniquely attractive. i think we had some renders at one point, for the casino phase two i guess, that were pretty blah, but it was the right idea and in the ballpark of what could be done with redevelopment around there.

 

regardless, for now its great news they are steadily moving forward with consolidation, expansion and a new hq.

Edited May 21, 2019 by mrnyc

[KJP]

An e-mail was sent to all SHW departments heads/managers today, saying if any media asks you about SHW HQ/R&D moving to new facilities, please do not comment.

[imjustinjk]

Damn KJP you got them in a tizzy. Not sure how much pull your blog has or this forum, but hopefully they see that there are very interested people in improving our city. They have about 3,000 employees Downtown, another roughly 1,000 throughout the metro area, and how many in Minneapolis (at Valspar)? Really, they could feasibly consolidate everything Downtown into more than just one skyscraper?

[Cleveland Trust]

https://www.cleveland.com/business/2019/05/a-new-headquarters-for-cleveland-paint-giant-sherwin-williams.html

 

The news writing news about news citing news as a source.

[KJP]

23 minutes ago, Cleveland Trust said:

https://www.cleveland.com/business/2019/05/a-new-headquarters-for-cleveland-paint-giant-sherwin-williams.html

 

The news writing news about news citing news as a source.

 

So many in the news media are either overworked or lazy. There's often no in-between. Either way, they don't go out and find news. They either let it to come to them or they quote/plagiarize each other. The latter is when it gets to be an echo chamber/journalistic incest. Having worked in a newsroom, I know how busy things can be. You want to go dig for news when you get a tip, but there's so many news events coming at you that you don't have time to dig. It worse in broadcast media. My sister worked at WKYC and the reporters there would sift through the PD each morning and Sun Newspapers on Thursdays to look for stories. It's called "rip and read" and it's appalling. I'm fortunate that I have time to dig. And the desire to do it.

 

EDIT: sorry, I didn't mean to get us off track into a media discussion. I'll bring it back to SHW -- here's how it probably went in the PD newsroom yesterday/today.... An editor saw my story, and told a reporter to call Mike Conway at Sherwin-Williams for comment. The editor probably said, if Mike denies it, don't bother writing anything. Mike told the reporter "no comment." So the reporter writes story.

Edited May 21, 2019 by KJP

[inlovewithCLE]

1 hour ago, KJP said:

An e-mail was sent to all SHW departments heads/managers today, saying if any media asks you about SHW HQ/R&D moving to new facilities, please do not comment.

Is there a reason for the secrecy 

[audidave]

I think it would be strange for a state constitutionally mandated site for a casino to get an hq if that is one of the sites. 

 

To me this throws a whole bunch of things into the mix.  They really should be working with the city and county too since they are an important and growing piece on the moving chess board of downtown CLE.  

  RTA, with the rapid rail lines alongside and potentially below SW should be part of a discussion.   How many more large buildings are in the works downtown?  Does that change the economics of creating the waterfront line loop?

 

 Some serious urban planning needs to be happening right now in the CLE. 

 

 

[Oxford19]

6 hours ago, KJP said:

Well, "No comment" is better than "He's full of sh!t".....

True, but it's still ''no comment''...

 

Edited May 21, 2019 by Oxford19

[KJP]

1 minute ago, Oxford19 said:

True, but it's still ''no comment''...

 

No comment in the media biz means "there's something there but we can't/won't talk about it."

[Oxford19]

Just now, KJP said:

 

No comment in the media biz means "there's something there but we can't/won't talk about it."

of course it does, it was a joke (hence the smiley face)...but, it's out there again that SW is looking for a new headquarters.  We've been reminded of this headquarters search since the late '80s, then in about 2016 the new headquarters announcement that didn't happen, so we're back in suspense mode again in 2019.

 

The real issue is downtown or suburbs.  Hoping its downtown on the Square with a large skyscraper presence, yet this being Cleveland, it could still go to the 'burbs.  It's on the table, not off the table.

 

Given the momentum of 2019 downtown Cleveland, one would expect any SW headquarters building to be downtown.  But the suburbs still call...

Edited May 21, 2019 by Oxford19

[MayDay]

3 hours ago, Pugu said:

^The Utility Knife Building, 33 Public Square.

Pfft, this is Cleveland - that’s ‘The Shiv’. 

 

Hey, if London can have The Shard, The Gherkin, The Cheesegrater...

[KJP]

10 minutes ago, Oxford19 said:

of course it does, it was a joke (hence the smiley face)...but, it's out there again that SW is looking for a new headquarters.  We've been reminded of this headquarters search since the late '80s, then in about 2016 the new headquarters announcement that didn't happen, so we're back in suspense mode again in 2019.

 

The real issue is downtown or suburbs.  Hoping its downtown on the Square with a large skyscraper presence, yet this being Cleveland, it could still go to the 'burbs.  It's on the table, not off the table.

 

Given the momentum of 2019 downtown Cleveland, one would expect any SW headquarters building to be downtown.  But the suburbs still call...

 

So you're saying it's like.....wait for it.....watching paint dry? 

 

 

[Boxtruffles]

6 minutes ago, MayDay said:

Pfft, this is Cleveland - that’s ‘The Shiv’. 

 

Hey, if London can have The Shard, The Gherkin, The Cheesegrater...

Don't forget about the Walkie-Talkie. 

[freethink]

I did this mock-up of a twisty version for the SW building about 3 years ago. Coincidence?... Oh and nice job KJP

[Oxford19]

14 minutes ago, KJP said:

 

So you're saying it's like.....wait for it.....watching paint dry? 

 

 

Yes, very much so...lol.  If it ends up as a downtown tower, preferably on PSquare, then it will be worth watching this headquarters paint dry.

[inlovewithCLE]

The writer of today’s article updated it:

 

”But it’s a sure bet that Greater Cleveland’s leadership will try to work with the company.

“It’s very important that they stay in the city and if they are looking ... I can only speak for myself, but I’m very confident that the city would do everything we could do to get them to stay in Cleveland,” City Council President Kevin Kelley said.

 

Mayor Frank Jackson’s administration declined to comment at this time.”

[MyPhoneDead]

I honestly think a "Campus" of Mid Rise to High Rise buildings on the Warehouse District lots could be the best that the city could ask for. Density in an area that is void of it, reinvigorates and at the same time re-invents a neighborhood that is at a crossroads with identity, and could fit enough buildings to fix their issue with space. I'd rather have a development that can change the dynamic of an ENTIRE neighborhood (if done right) that a tall 900 ft skyscaper that plugs a hole and adds activity to a specific corner. 

[Oxford19]

Just now, Terdolph said:

If it isn't going to be in the West Third lots, I hope it is shorter than Key Tower.  TT is being dominated by super talks.  The skyline needs to be balanced.

Huh? The Terminal Tower is being dominated by super talls?  I hope it's taller than Key Tower.

[Oxford19]

Just now, MyPhoneDead said:

I honestly think a "Campus" of Mid Rise to High Rise buildings on the Warehouse District lots could be the best that the city could ask for. Density in an area that is void of it, reinvigorates and at the same time re-invents a neighborhood that is at a crossroads with identity, and could fit enough buildings to fix their issue with space. I'd rather have a development that can change the dynamic of an ENTIRE neighborhood (if done right) that a tall 900 ft skyscaper that plugs a hole and adds activity to a specific corner. 

Put a super tall on the jacobs lot, use some of the WHD parking lots for whatever, if needed, leave the W St Clair section open for housing.  

 

A 900'+ tower on the Public Square lot alone will change the dynamic of the entire WHD neighborhood.

 

Hasn't there been talk about a boutique style coming in somewhere along this part of St Clair?

[Oxford19]

2 minutes ago, inlovewithCLE said:

The writer of today’s article updated it:

 

”But it’s a sure bet that Greater Cleveland’s leadership will try to work with the company.

“It’s very important that they stay in the city and if they are looking ... I can only speak for myself, but I’m very confident that the city would do everything we could do to get them to stay in Cleveland,” City Council President Kevin Kelley said.

 

Mayor Frank Jackson’s administration declined to comment at this time.”

Kelly needs to up this sentiment to ''will work with the company'' and ''the city will keep SW in Cleveland''.  Not this ''we'll try''...c'mon.  Grow a pair Kelly.

[Mov2Ohio]

1 hour ago, Terdolph said:

If it isn't going to be in the West Third lots, I hope it is shorter than Key Tower.  TT is being dominated by super talks.  The skyline needs to be balanced.

It's only dominated by one tower right now and I wouldn't call Key a Super tall. Not with Burj Khalifa or some of the towers being built in NYC right now. 

[CleveFan]

Supertalls are 300 meters (984 feet) or higher, so Key Tower technically is not one, but it’s close. I say bring on Cleveland’s first with a new SW headquarters (fingers crossed big time) but even the height as envisioned in freethink’s cool mock-up (which looks to be about 900’ and I really like the sleek look of those proportions) would fit in quite  nicely!  

[YABO713]

I'm not sure if its been discussed on here yet, but SHW employees got an internal email telling them not to talk to the media.

[Potamus]

I wouldn't read too much into that.  Most companies have a standing policy of not talking to the media unless you're authorized to and they often send reminders when stories like this about the company appear in the press.

 

[shack]

On 5/20/2019 at 3:36 PM, Terdolph said:

I don't see how you could put a chemical engineering R&D lab in the Landmark Building.  You need explosive proof rooms, roof vents, all kinds of things that are hard or impossible to do in a high rise.  Expanding Breen makes a lot more sense if they have the real estate to do it. 

 

Also, I am glad that the Ameritrust super tall never got built.  It was an ugly design.  Key Tower has aged much more gracefully.

Not only has Key Tower aged more gracefully it complements the Terminal Tower exceptionally well. I've never seen two building work so well together ...  a kind of "dance" when viewed from various perspectives. Ceasar Pelli is a master architect.

[Htsguy]

1 hour ago, YABO713 said:

I'm not sure if its been discussed on here yet, but SHW employees got an internal email telling them not to talk to the media.

KJP (of course) relayed that fun tidbit yesterday

[shack]

On 5/20/2019 at 3:42 PM, ASPhotoman said:

Any chances this gets built in the Scranton Peninsula Thunderbird development? 

I think the ugly parking lots of the flats west Bank would better if the ones by Public square doesn't work out. It would really stretch the skyline west and fuse it with the budding skyline of Ohio City. Those living at Thunderbird can  easily walk to the west bank as well as the older properties across the river. 

[Chazz Michael Michaels]

Agree with Shack (Key Tower and Terminal Tower are very complimentary).  Selfishly, I hope the building(s) are tall, I hope SHW chooses and maximizes the Public Square lot and I hope the tower isn't just a blue glass tower (although they seem to be very popular today - not sure if the blue glass designs help with energy efficiency).     

[cle25]

The talk of a potential supertall on the Jacobs property or mid-rise campus development on the WHD parking lots is awesome, but honestly I just hope the city doesn't screw this up and is able to keep SHW downtown. I'm sure whatever development will follow will be impactful to the skyline and neighborhood. 

[YABO713]

I'm hopeful for a large tower.... but realistically.... Proctor and Gamble has two 350'(ish) towers in Cincinnati and P&G employs more people than Sherwin Williams at its HQ, at least so far as I know. I think 900' might be too large for SHW, no?

[KFM44107]

8 minutes ago, YABO713 said:

I'm hopeful for a large tower.... but realistically.... Proctor and Gamble has two 350'(ish) towers in Cincinnati and P&G employs more people than Sherwin Williams at its HQ, at least so far as I know. I think 900' might be too large for SHW, no?

After some very quick snooping, it appears both towers square footage is around 600,000 square feet each. So the layout is not insignificant. The buildings are only 11 stories tall each, but it seems the first four or five stories are quadruple in square footage the rest of the tower.

Edited May 22, 2019 by KFM44107
Sentence structure.

[MayDay]

P&G occupies almost 1.5 million square feet in not just the two towers but also a 11 floor older building that has a significant amount of square footage.

 

 

[edale]

The comparison to Procter and Gamble is an interesting one, and I could see Sherwin Williams following a similar path, with a corporate headquarters downtown, and a separate R&D campus elsewhere. P&G's largest R&D center is out in Mason, and they just completed a $300 million expansion to add more lab space, which really isn't practical to integrate in a high rise office tower. The Mason center alone is now 2 million square feet of lab and office space! Of the 95,000 employees world wide, they employ about 10,000 people in greater Cincinnati, 3,000 of which are in Mason. I can't find the numbers for downtown, but I think it's about 3-5,000 at the HQ. Perhaps SW will take a similar approach, and either expand the R&D facility by the river or move that out to the burbs, while consolidating its more corporate headquarter jobs in a new tower downtown.

 

If anyone is interested in learning a bit more about the new R&D facilities, you can read about it here

Edited May 22, 2019 by edale

[mrnyc]

21 hours ago, audidave said:

I think it would be strange for a state constitutionally mandated site for a casino to get an hq if that is one of the sites. 

 

To me this throws a whole bunch of things into the mix.  They really should be working with the city and county too since they are an important and growing piece on the moving chess board of downtown CLE.  

  RTA, with the rapid rail lines alongside and potentially below SW should be part of a discussion.   How many more large buildings are in the works downtown?  Does that change the economics of creating the waterfront line loop?

 

 Some serious urban planning needs to be happening right now in the CLE. 

 

 

 

 

true enough, but sometimes mixed use makes for some strange bedfellows.

 

also, of course the whole of the riverfront back there isn't mandated for a casino, much less only a casino.

 

there is plenty of room for the casino, plus residential, offices and etc..

 

granted it would take a lot more thought and efforts than building on empty lots, but i always lean toward building up the waterfronts.

 

 

 

otoh, if a new sw hq is to be a signature supertall on the jacobs lot, that would be beyond the beyond great too. 

 

it would most certainly kickstart more warehouse district redevelopments.

[urb-a-saurus]

@KJP:  Your celebrity spreads!  There were several comments referencing your SHW headquarters related blog post on the CLE thread of airliners.net.  People there were considering possible impacts of SHW's moves on CLE air service.  By the way, are they committed to the Cleveland area, or is there any possibility that they could move to Minneapolis or elsewhere?

[Chazz Michael Michaels]

5 minutes ago, urb-a-saurus said:

@KJP:  Your celebrity spreads!  There were several comments referencing your SHW headquarters related blog post on the CLE thread of airliners.net.  People there were considering possible impacts of SHW's moves on CLE air service.  By the way, are they committed to the Cleveland area, or is there any possibility that they could move to Minneapolis or elsewhere?

I thought there was something in SHW's Corporate Charter that their HQs, if moved, had to be within a certain radius of their current HQ.  Corporate charters can be changed - but I think Minneapolis is out of the question this go'round

[plinth857]

4 minutes ago, Chazz Michael Michaels said:

I thought there was something in SHW's Corporate Charter that their HQs, if moved, had to be within a certain radius of their current HQ.  Corporate charters can be changed - but I think Minneapolis is out of the question this go'round

 

This is correct (about the charter)... pretty sure the charter mentions it must be within a one mile radius.  However, in the current business climate, that could be changed without too many issues.  However, I would wager a fairly large sum that if Sherwin does build a new HQ, it will fall within the city limits of Cleveland, unless the city REALLY tries to undermine the company.

[KJP]

 

13 minutes ago, plinth857 said:

 

This is correct (about the charter)... pretty sure the charter mentions it must be within a one mile radius.  However, in the current business climate, that could be changed without too many issues.  However, I would wager a fairly large sum that if Sherwin does build a new HQ, it will fall within the city limits of Cleveland, unless the city REALLY tries to undermine the company.

 

Here is what I wrote in my blog about that subject:

 

There have been references shared in past articles in this blog that SHW's corporate charter requires the company to keep its principal executive offices within one mile of where the company was founded in 1866 -- basically where the Breen Technology Center is today. But a keyword search of corporate governance documents reveals no such requirement.

SHW's articles of incorporation do require "the place where this Company shall be located and its principal business shall be transacted is the City of Cleveland in the County of Cuyahoga and State of Ohio." It appears that amending the articles requires a vote by two-thirds of the company's shareholders.

 

http://neo-trans.blogspot.com/2019/05/sherwin-williams-hq-will-it-be-ohios.html

 

I welcome any help in finding where a corporate governance document says SHW should be located within 1 mile of where the company was founded.

[Oldmanladyluck]

^Then we could change the name from the Warehouse District (aka Parking Lot District) to the Sherwin Williams District!! 

 

J/K

 

If the company decides it wants to stay in Cleveland- that's a major plus altogether.  

 

What a positive for the city- in what for years has been a negative with the parking lots languishing for decades.  Remember what could have been with Amazon?  Think of what could be possible with an albeit smaller Sherwin Williams?

 

 

If Sherwin Williams went with the Jacobs Lot to build a tower, the tower itself would be a fantastic addition to the city's image.  But i can't disagree that the surrounding lots being developed may have a greater impact on the Parking Lot District.  I'm on the tower side of Sim-Cleveland at this point

[KJP]

Don't forget that Realife Real Estate is working on something for the northern half of the Superblock. They apparently have some meaningful dollars behind them, which is why Stark is willing to move out so soon and for such a temporary location until nuCLEus is built. I've heard a rumor of what Realife wants to build but I'm having a hard time believing they could pull it off based on their lack of experience with new construction. But Yaron Kandelker convinced Stark to sell low and move out fast.

Edited May 22, 2019 by KJP

[tj111]

20 minutes ago, KJP said:

I've heard a rumor of what Realife wants to build...

 

[PittsburgoDelendaEst]

Before I go all wet blanket, let me say this excites me to no end. 

 

However, 2 points. 

 

1.) Whether or not the charter says the HQ needs to be within a mile or even inside the city of Cleveland, I suspect 2/3rds vote of the shareholders would not be particularly difficult to obtain. If the board proposes a move to Brecksville because it will save the company X number of dollars over Y years, the shareholders aren't going to say, "Nah, man you gotta stay in Cleveland."  It's a mild obstacle and really the bigger key is do key decision makers have an inclination to stay in Cleveland because that's what Sherwin Williams is.

 

2.) The building being on Public Square will do wonders for the square, by closing the visual gap and making it feel more like a "room", but I am not totally sold that it will necessarily do anything for the other WHD lots. It will raise the premium for parking which is what the lots already are used for, and Key Tower is pretty closed off and doesn't interact that well with its surroundings at street level.  That would be important for a Public Square tower, even more so than Key which abuts a dead zone that will always be dead (thanks Mr. Burnham). Filling in the gaps from the Square to the WHD and doing it well is the #1 thing that will promote a better urban feel in downtown Cleveland. We all know the current state is a joke. Let's end that. 

 

 

Edited May 22, 2019 by PittsburgoDelendaEst

[shack]

2 hours ago, YABO713 said:

I'm hopeful for a large tower.... but realistically.... Proctor and Gamble has two 350'(ish) towers in Cincinnati and P&G employs more people than Sherwin Williams at its HQ, at least so far as I know. I think 900' might be too large for SHW, no?

Curious to know which of the two towers in Cincinnati represents Proctor and which one represent Gamble. Not that it matters , but I'm sure that was the intent. Philadelphia has two twin towers that seems to connote the  idea of the city of "brotherly love"  in a subliminal way. I love thoughtful designs like that. Can't say that i like their skyline with their latest two towers.. . but their stuck with it. i don't like whats happening around the Empire State building either with competing buildings that are taller. Its prominence and stature is diminishing by the day. Terminal Tower fortunately  has Public Square along with the building two wings which gives the tower plenty of breathing room for future generations to enjoy, not to mention the unobstructed view from the west bank of the river. 

[Oxford19]

19 minutes ago, Terdolph said:

Yes, it will change the dynamic of the WHD neighborhood-it will suck the life out of what could be there if the office space was distributed throughout the WHD with one 38 floor building and a half dozen low rises.

We've been waiting for at least 30 years for what could be there.  

 

A tower on the Jacobs lot will or should spur development in the WHD.  Maybe a nice mixed-use project like the one proposed by Weston a few years ago.

[audidave]

Parking and transit access will be top 2-3 issues for whatever is decided.  I don’t see how this site gets a tall tower without a parking garage on part of the superblock. The question is do they really want to leave the riverside and Breen. 

  I would think they do want to try to stay alongside the river but with updated facilities. They can build a signature building without going over 600 ft.  A canyon on Huron could be created if they are ok with going next to the phase 2 casino which will happen if all these buildings start coming online.   Driving down Huron would be a very impressive sight. 

 

[KJP]

There is a supertall in that rendering. 

[Oxford19]

Just now, KJP said:

There is a supertall in that rendering. 

...and it's on the Jacobs lot.

[Oxford19]

8 hours ago, audidave said:

Parking and transit access will be top 2-3 issues for whatever is decided.  I don’t see how this site gets a tall tower without a parking garage on part of the superblock. The question is do they really want to leave the riverside and Breen. 

  I would think they do want to try to stay alongside the river but with updated facilities. They can build a signature building without going over 600 ft.  A canyon on Huron could be created if they are ok with going next to the phase 2 casino which will happen if all these buildings start coming online.   Driving down Huron would be a very impressive sight. 

 

The original AmeriTrust Center called for a parking garage on the southeast quadrant of the superblock (W 3 between Superior & Frankfort) with a hotel ballroom on top of it; there was supposed to be either a Hyatt or Hilton hotel as part of the mixed-use tower.

 

So yes, if a SW tower went up on PS, then there would have to be a parking garage somewhere.

Edited May 23, 2019 by Oxford19

[bjk]

Is there any kind of lead paint legislation pending in the City of Cleveland?