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Cleveland: Sherwin-Williams' Headquarters

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4 minutes ago, nayrmot said:

@KJP What happens now with the 55PS location and the justice center?

 

A developer recently looked at a residential conversion of 55 Public Square and declared it not viable, citing that it needed $100 million worth of renovations including a new facade. You could build a brand-new residential tower of similar height for that amount. So it's probably going to stay offices, perhaps with some sprucing up.

 

Too soon to know what happens with the Justice Center. It's the subject of a study that's still in progress.

Edited by KJP
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"Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities."-Voltaire

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1 minute ago, KJP said:

 

A developer recently looked at a residential conversion of 55 Public Square and declared it not viable, citing that it needed $100 million worth of renovations including a new facade. You could build a brand-new residential tower of similar height for that amount. So it's probably going to stay offices, perhaps with some sprucing up.

 

Too soon to know what happens with the Justice Center. It's the subject of a study that's still in progress.

I believe K&D was trying to get tax credits for this property. Bummer residential won’t work but that’s what the non SW surface lots will be for. I’ll be happy that the garage is getting redone and the old steakhouse will finally be opened up as something else with this announcement.

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6 minutes ago, KJP said:

 

A developer recently looked at a residential conversion of 55 Public Square and declared it not viable, citing that it needed $100 million worth of renovations including a new facade. You could build a brand-new residential tower of similar height for that amount. So it's probably going to stay offices, perhaps with some sprucing up.

 

Too soon to know what happens with the Justice Center. It's the subject of a study that's still in progress.

Could 55 Public Square be converted to a court tower? I  think it would be a good re-use. 

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The Renaissance needs a major overhaul (which I think they are in the early stages of) but if 6,000 employees are working across the street I would think their occupancy would increase. If they renovate now they may well be able to justify expansion after 2023

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4 minutes ago, freefourur said:

Could 55 Public Square be converted to a court tower? I  think it would be a good re-use. 

 

Courthouses have specialized floor layouts - I doubt you could shoehorn it into a office building of this shape

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Perfect location! Congratulations Cleveland! 

 

With only three lots, needing 1.8 million square feet, and with 2,000 parking spaces there are going to be some impressive buildings here! I think this could very well be more impressive than the original NuCleus proposal.  A main tower right on Public Square would be great. I hope any designs include some rooftop greenspace-no bare naked parking on the top of any garage.  They have so many options I can't wait to see what is proposed! 

 

A big LOL! to those "experts" who were all about Atlanta, Dallas, etc. 

 

*I admit I am a bit jealous but it is all good go OHIO!

Please let Cbus get something like this too soon!!!

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26 minutes ago, mrclifton88 said:

The Renaissance needs a major overhaul (which I think they are in the early stages of) but if 6,000 employees are working across the street I would think their occupancy would increase. If they renovate now they may well be able to justify expansion after 2023


SHW is already located downtown and technically currently have an indoor connection to the Renaissance. I doubt this has a major impact on their hotel occupancy. 

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5 minutes ago, inlovewithCLE said:

@KJP any idea on when they’ll announce publicly?

 

No. If it's how most developers do it, they won't announce until they have massings/renderings to submit to City Planning Commission. In other words -- several months from now. 😞

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1 minute ago, KJP said:

 

No. If it's how most developers do it, they won't announce until they have massings/renderings to submit to City Planning Commission. In other words -- several months from now. 😞

NO!!! waiting months for renderings to salivate over and all the ideas that will be floating around is going to be torture for you guys! lol.  Hope it will be worth the wait! 

 

I cannot see how they don't go big on that smallest parcel on Public Square. Something at least over 100 meters.

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Such an exciting morning! Thanks as always @KJP! Another ripple effect I’m pondering is if/how SHW’s decision might impact Realife’s proposed residential tower at 725 W. St. Clair, among other things...

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22 hours ago, G00pie said:

The commenters on Cleveland.com are pretty funny to read..

 

Edited by CCC

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16 minutes ago, Toddguy said:

Perfect location! Congratulations Cleveland! 

 

With only three lots, needing 1.8 million square feet, and with 2,000 parking spaces there are going to be some impressive buildings here! I think this could very well be more impressive than the original NuCleus proposal.  A main tower right on Public Square would be great. I hope any designs include some rooftop greenspace-no bare naked parking on the top of any garage.  They have so many options I can't wait to see what is proposed! 

 

A big LOL! to those "experts" who were all about Atlanta, Dallas, etc. 

 

*I admit I am a bit jealous but it is all good go OHIO!

Please let Cbus get something like this too soon!!!

Love the support from other cities! Ohio's big 3 are so unique yet tied together in so many ways that we should be supporting each other on every win like this no matter where or what the development is. Good things are happening in all 3 cities!

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1 hour ago, mrclifton88 said:

The Renaissance needs a major overhaul (which I think they are in the early stages of) but if 6,000 employees are working across the street I would think their occupancy would increase. If they renovate now they may well be able to justify expansion after 2023

The Renaissance Hotel (aka Sheraton-Cleveland, aka Stouffers Tower City) has been renovated/reincarnated so many times, it should be almost out of lives by now.  Great architecture and location, but I have to imagine that without gutting it, all renovations are laborious and expensive.

Edited by Frmr CLEder
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Just now, YO to the CLE said:

Love the support from other cities! Ohio's big 3 are so unique yet tied together in so many ways that we should be supporting each other on every win like this no matter where or what the development is. Good things are happening in all 3 cities!

Well I would not want it to go anywhere else...we don't need Ohio cities stealing and poaching from one another and we do NOT need any more poaching from NYC, Chicago, and especially any sunbelt city. SW staying in Cleveland is good for all of Ohio. We need to support each other on this instead of attacking each other's cities. Save the attacks for the smug sun belt cities outside of Ohio.

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19 minutes ago, CCC said:

Such an exciting morning! Thanks as always @KJP! Another ripple effect I’m pondering is if/how SHW’s decision might impact Realife’s proposed residential tower at 725 W. St. Clair, among other things...

Isn't the Realife thing in the grave (not that anybody really thought it was something that was actually going to happen in the first place)

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1 hour ago, bjk said:

 

Courthouses have specialized floor layouts - I doubt you could shoehorn it into a office building of this shape

Not only that but there are multi specialized ancillary spaces (for example a secure underground garage space to transport prisoners) as well as things like separate elevator banks for judges, juries and prisoners among things.  Also, I imagine contemporary courthouse design involves unique ways to handle public access security (unlike what was thrown up at the Justice Center after 9/11 with folding tables and the like).  Any large court house project today is a specialized building.

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This selected location presents the opportunity for a truly impactful design, both on the skyline level and most especially the street level...

Imagine a design that incorporates a spectacular tower and a series of smaller buildings built around a public green space that extends the highly successful Public Square redesign. This, along with strategically placed retail at the street level could activate the entire campus and connect it beautifully to the warehouse district.

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I know this had likely been broached several pages back but is there any insight or speculation into what would happen with the existing SW HQ facility @KJP - regardless of where they "announce" they're moving?

 

It's probably far too early but just curious if it would be sold/redeveloped or possibly renovated to house employees from certain sectors of the business? 

Edited by BJBaes
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From what I've heard, this isn't geotechnical drilling, rather some environmental sampling hence the vac truck in some of the photos.  Geotechnical sampling and reporting won't be complete until a building footprint is nailed down, and the location of the proposed foundation is set.  No sense in drilling borings in areas where a foundation may not exist.

 

In any event, another fantastic article KJP!  Thank yo for sharing!😀

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2 hours ago, KJP said:

 

My favorite is Amazon's South Lake Union campus in Seattle. Very few skyscrapers yet amazing density, mixed use, publicly accessible, transit accessible and integration into the city's fabric.

 

Having worked with Amazon for 20 years now in Seattle it's interesting to see the progression of their downtown office space. From random spaces where they could get them, to space in the tallest building in Seattle, to finally the consolidation in the South Lake Union/SLU area, where they probably have 15 or 20 buildings now generally ranging from 6-7 stories up to a few 20-30+ stories.

 

Each building has a restaurant or two on the first floor, from local places to chains, from fast food to sit down, including a few that are Amazon only. However there's a little retail in the immediate SLU area that is almost all Amazon... mostly food... what is not retail is often lobbies to buildings but there is very little dead space, and parking garages are below most buildings.

 

There is little traditional greenspace or open areas,  but multi-tiered  plazas, landscaped walkways, and pocket parks are often between the buildings. Oh, and those domes you've prob seen...

 

Other than a huge escalation in rents, the one big knock on the area has been that the sidewalks roll up at 6 or 7 p.m. and restaurants have been going out of business nearby because there's no dinner business to be had and rents likely aren't cheap.. This is a problem Cleveland wishes it had given the high concentration of morning and midday business that is being done in this SLU area. 

 

Another plus of this development is many people I work with at Amazon live within view of the building they work in, generating lots of demand for nearby apartments and fewer cars.

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Outside of the building itself how transformative is this thing expected to be? Seems to be a lot of people thinking this will drive a ton of other development and boost all sorts of activity downtown. While I’m excited I think we should lower our expectations slightly. This isn’t a complete relocation, although we will be getting some new jobs. Key Tower was a massive project. It did not cause any significant spinoff and the area surrounding it is still pretty devoid of life or any street activity. No good retail/food options. My concern about the ground floor is very real when looking at newer developments elsewhere, and Cleveland’s struggling retail and rents makes things worse. Looking at Landmark and Breen it does not appear ground level activity is a huge concern of theirs, but hopefully that changes. This is extremely good news that SHW is staying, plus adding job, and I’m just as excited as everyone else. I just think we should keep expectations in check unlike we all did with Stark and others. Even Flats East has had way less of an impact than I had hoped for Old River road. Looking forward to seeing the first renderings. Hoping they keep Frankfort. 

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3 minutes ago, Jenny said:

From what I've heard, this isn't geotechnical drilling, rather some environmental sampling hence the vac truck in some of the photos.  Geotechnical sampling and reporting won't be complete until a building footprint is nailed down, and the location of the proposed foundation is set.  No sense in drilling borings in areas where a foundation may not exist.

 

In any event, another fantastic article KJP!  Thank yo for sharing!😀

 

Thanks. BTW, both types of trucks were on site -- drilling rigs and vac trucks. Drilling rigs were working at some of the corners of the lots.

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11 minutes ago, JSC216 said:

Outside of the building itself how transformative is this thing expected to be? Seems to be a lot of people thinking this will drive a ton of other development and boost all sorts of activity downtown. While I’m excited I think we should lower our expectations slightly. This isn’t a complete relocation, although we will be getting some new jobs. Key Tower was a massive project. It did not cause any significant spinoff and the area surrounding it is still pretty devoid of life or any street activity. No good retail/food options. My concern about the ground floor is very real when looking at newer developments elsewhere, and Cleveland’s struggling retail and rents makes things worse. Looking at Landmark and Breen it does not appear ground level activity is a huge concern of theirs, but hopefully that changes. This is extremely good news that SHW is staying, plus adding job, and I’m just as excited as everyone else. I just think we should keep expectations in check unlike we all did with Stark and others. Even Flats East has had way less of an impact than I had hoped for Old River road. Looking forward to seeing the first renderings. Hoping they keep Frankfort. 

 

 

agreed, but i am not as worried about that because time has definitely moved on in urban design from the devoid of life bases of the key tower era.

 

the site warrants a lot of street interaction. it won't be everywhere, but just as long as there are no long, unpedestrian-friendly stretches i would bet it will be fine. 

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33 minutes ago, BJBaes said:

I know this had likely been broached several pages back but is there any insight or speculation into what would happen with the existing SW HQ facility @KJP - regardless of where they "announce" they're moving?

 

It's probably far too early but just curious if it would be sold/redeveloped or possibly renovated to house employees from certain sectors of the business? 

 

Yep, too soon. But I certainly hope that the Centennial gets underway soon so that there aren't two huge, historic building conversions entering the market at the same time.

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1 hour ago, Htsguy said:

Isn't the Realife thing in the grave (not that anybody really thought it was something that was actually going to happen in the first place)

Thanks, @Htsguy. I missed that somehow. 

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41 minutes ago, JSC216 said:

Outside of the building itself how transformative is this thing expected to be? Seems to be a lot of people thinking this will drive a ton of other development and boost all sorts of activity downtown. While I’m excited I think we should lower our expectations slightly. This isn’t a complete relocation, although we will be getting some new jobs. Key Tower was a massive project. It did not cause any significant spinoff and the area surrounding it is still pretty devoid of life or any street activity. No good retail/food options. My concern about the ground floor is very real when looking at newer developments elsewhere, and Cleveland’s struggling retail and rents makes things worse. Looking at Landmark and Breen it does not appear ground level activity is a huge concern of theirs, but hopefully that changes. This is extremely good news that SHW is staying, plus adding job, and I’m just as excited as everyone else. I just think we should keep expectations in check unlike we all did with Stark and others. Even Flats East has had way less of an impact than I had hoped for Old River road. Looking forward to seeing the first renderings. Hoping they keep Frankfort. 

 

Stop right there, this is far more than just "some" jobs. By the time they're done building it's going to reach in the thousands of new jobs - that's not a guess or speculation.

 

The flats and nuCLEus aren't very good comparisons either. This is a billion+ dollar development in the heart of the city. I don't believe our region has ever seen anything on this scale, it's truly a game changer.

Edited by Clefan98
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4 hours ago, urbanetics_ said:

For SHW and this specific site, I could possible see something like a fusion of the 7th & Market development in San Diego

 

https://www.bisnow.com/san-diego/news/mixed-use/cisterra-working-on-downtown-mixed-use-project-and-office-campus-in-the-suburbs-63161

 

In my ideal world, it would be amazing to have the scale, size and aesthetics of the San Diego tower to make a signature statement on Public Square with the pedestrian friendliness / urban campus feel and density of the San Jose campus that would transition through the Weston lots and connect into the Warehouse District. Iconic new modern skyline addition to frame in the last side of the square while getting an urban campus that fits into its surrounding low-mid rise buildings = win-win scenario.

Right! Here's hoping SW takes this same approach that makes the SD project so promising:

 

The project was designed to integrate seamlessly into the urban fabric of the city and to enhance the pedestrian and residential experience as well as the visual experience from the ballpark. 
 

 

Edited by surfohio
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3 hours ago, CLE_Millennial said:

So now we know the location,.The river would have been interesting, but I'm soooo glad they chose this site.

Now I have to find the patience to wait a few months for the renderings to be announced.

 

This has been an amazing journey. Urban Ohio should throw a party.

 

There hasn't been this big a reason to throw a parade in Cleveland since the Cavs winning the NBA title 3.5 years ago.  I'm not expecting one now, but hopefully somewhere, the great J.R. Smith is walking around shirtless!

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14 minutes ago, Down_with_Ctown said:

 

There hasn't been this big a reason to throw a parade in Cleveland since the Cavs winning the NBA title 3.5 years ago.  I'm not expecting one now, but hopefully somewhere, the great J.R. Smith is walking around shirtless!

...or the browns going 0-16 😛 

 

Go Bills! And go SHW/Cle!!!

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28 minutes ago, Clefan98 said:

By the time they're done building it's going to reach in the thousands of new jobs - that's not a guess or speculation.

 

This IS speculation. KJP's previous article states the following:

 

SW currently has 3,300 employees in downtown Cleveland.  There are 1,100 elsewhere in northeast Ohio that *could* be consolidated. And about 1,600 jobs would be added through corporate growth (speculative) or relocation from other states, particularly Valspar in Minneapolis. 

 

In 2016 per an article Valspar had 600 jobs in Minneapolis. A later article said "much of Valspar's administrative and headquarters jobs had been moved away since the merger closed."

 

If we speculatively say that ALL of the 1,100 NEO jobs not currently downtown will move there, and the 400 or so R&D jobs in Minneapolis will move. That is 1500 jobs that will be planned to move on day 1. The top-end figure is 2,700 new jobs (6,000 per KJP minus 3,300 currently downtown) and again it certainly sounds like "corporate growth" is baked into that number which means that can only be expected to take place over the next several years. On day 1  this will be about a 1% increase in downtown employment (from its current number of about 95,000). Definitely good for the city but "game changer" is overstating it IMO

 

 

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1 hour ago, PittsburgoDelendaEst said:

 

This IS speculation. KJP's previous article states the following:

 

SW currently has 3,300 employees in downtown Cleveland.  There are 1,100 elsewhere in northeast Ohio that *could* be consolidated. And about 1,600 jobs would be added through corporate growth (speculative) or relocation from other states, particularly Valspar in Minneapolis. 

 

In 2016 per an article Valspar had 600 jobs in Minneapolis. A later article said "much of Valspar's administrative and headquarters jobs had been moved away since the merger closed."

 

If we speculatively say that ALL of the 1,100 NEO jobs not currently downtown will move there, and the 400 or so R&D jobs in Minneapolis will move. That is 1500 jobs that will be planned to move on day 1. The top-end figure is 2,700 new jobs (6,000 per KJP minus 3,300 currently downtown) and again it certainly sounds like "corporate growth" is baked into that number which means that can only be expected to take place over the next several years. On day 1  this will be about a 1% increase in downtown employment (from its current number of about 95,000). Definitely good for the city but "game changer" is overstating it IMO

 

 

 

No, it's not speculation and the game changer remark isn't an overstatement. My source (a director at SHW) is in a position to know what their future growth and employee relocation plans are. They've been planning for this move for some time now, they just didn't know where the new HQ would be. Now that's it's been confirmed, Cleveland is poised to gain thousands of employees over the next 5yrs.

 

In addition, did you include the numbers from their other 6 or 7 R&D centers located across the country? They have office staff in other cities/states that no one has talked about, and many of you probably didn't even know existed.

 

And yes, Valspar has 600 HQ jobs, but once again did you include their 400 R&D jobs also located in Minny?

Edited by Clefan98
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Billion-dollar +, single development on Public Square, that gets rid of that $#@%&* decades-old parking lot oasis, is and of itself a gamechanger. Period!

Edited by Frmr CLEder
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@PittsburgoDelendaEst Everything is "could, would, might, may, possibly..." until it happens. I write all forward-looking statements in that manner because I don't travel into the future faster than anyone else. But I do talk to people who are trying to shape the future of Greater Cleveland and I share what I can, when I can.

 

And @Clefan98 is right about the jobs situation because he has inside info from SHW. I know who his source is. And his source is in a position to know.

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21 minutes ago, Clefan98 said:

 

No, it's not speculation and the game changer remark isn't an overstatement. My source (a director at SHW) is in a position to know what their future growth and employee relocation plans are. They've been planning for this move for sometime, they just didn't know where the new HQ would be. Now that's it's been confirmed, Cleveland is poised to gain thousands of employees over the next 5yrs.

 

In addition, did you include the numbers from their other 6 or 7 R&D centers located across the country? They have office staff in other cities/states that no one has talked about, and many of you probably didn't even know existed.

 

And yes, Valspar has 600 HQ jobs, but once again did you include their 400 R&D jobs also located in Minny?

 

That is fair enough - I respect your information as sourced better than my quick scan of a couple articles on the internet. 

 

However could you clarify what you mean by "thousands in the next 5 years" ? Per KJP's writings there are 3300 currently and the HQ would consolidate "up to" 6,000 employees there. So is it fair to say that the top end in terms of downtown employee growth in the near term is 2,700? I had considered that it would be a 10-20 year period of time to achieve thst, vs the 5 that you've stated. But is the number actually bigger than that simple calculation? 

Edited by PittsburgoDelendaEst

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23 minutes ago, PittsburgoDelendaEst said:

 

That is fair enough - I respect your information as sourced better than my quick scan of a couple articles on the internet. 

 

However could you clarify what you mean by "thousands in the next 5 years" ? Per KJP's writings there are 3300 currently and the HQ would consolidate "up to" 6,000 employees there. So is it fair to say off the top end in terms of downtown employee growth in the near term is 2,700?

 

Please don't misunderstand, I love this, particularly since they appear to have chosen PS over the riverfront site which I wasn't wild about. However I am always cautious of "irrational exuberance" which can lead to disappointment down the road. There are few, I might argue, zero true "game changers". These new jobs are an incredibly important piece of very good news. But will we look at this as the last time Cleveland was found on "most distressed cities" lists? Does this save our slowly dying transit system?

 

I should be able to provide some hard data and info on their current employment levels at all US sites by the end of this week. Most of their R&D/labs will be consolidated into the new site, although I don't believe a final decision has made on some of them. Your 2700 figure is pretty damn close to the number I've heard, which is somewhere between 2k - 2500 additional employees in Cleveland. I'm hesitant to say the number breakdown between relocations and growth, but that will come out soon as well.

 

 

Edited by Clefan98
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As far as some ideas for (hopeful) physical form and design of the new HQ, I love some of these elements and concepts:

 

EItZOqaXYAMRLsi.jpg.5f3f14d2c3466f06e94a9bee88dfcd80.jpg

 

EItZOqeX0AExM72.thumb.jpg.c7b6264f8cf1a84adeb02c96f8a07c2f.jpg

 

Pedestrianized corridors, active sidewalks and streets, abundance of greenery, public seating areas/plazas, interaction between the architecture and public realm, etc...Really crossing my fingers that SHW/the city will pull off a campus with these features.

 

 

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