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Cleveland: Sherwin-Williams' Headquarters

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When I think of campus setting, I don't think of mixed use especially in regards to residential. They want their own space. I've been hoping for decades for a skyline changer on the PS lot and the warehouse district wouldn't be a good fit for a corporate office campus for obvious reasons. The riverfront location I feel is the best choice, plus it would turn Huron rd into something better than it is now. 

Edited by Mildtraumatic
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3 minutes ago, mack34 said:

So you're agreeing with me....thats what I said.  PS workers have more access to Downtown. 

Oh Laaaawd.  Why did I write "disagree"?  I need a nap!

 

the naked gun facepalm GIF

 

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6 minutes ago, Mildtraumatic said:

When I think of campus setting, I don't think of mixed use especially in regards to residential. They want their own space. I've been hoping for decades for a skyline changer on the PS lot and the warehouse district wouldn't be a good fit for a corporate office campus for obvious reasons. The riverfront location I feel is the best choice, plus it would turn Huron rd into something better than it is now. 

In this instance, I don't think of it as a "suburban style" campus setting.  I think of it as an urban "corporate campus".

 

Might I suggest for this project we use "corporate campus"?  When I think of Corporate Campus I think of the following:

AT&T office in Downtown Dallas

former Enron office in Downtown Houston

The original WFC (AMEX)

Time Warner Center

 

A corporate campus, consisting of corporate offices, residential, hospitality and retail can become a reality in downtown Cleveland either on the Warehouse Dist space or against the river.  A WHD location creates new spaces across from/adjacent to the West and North of TC.  A river location connects to the already extensive TC

 

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2 hours ago, X said:

 

I'm leaning more and more to hoping they go on the riverfront site.  No PS tower + campus style development in the middle of Downtown isn't super exciting to me, from a design/urban liveliness perspective.  Unless of course, they are willing to have ground floor retail on the outward facing facades of their campus.

 

Campus style development along the riverfront could be quite nice however, as long as they are willing to retain a public walk along the riverfront itself.

We’d all like to see the parking lots off PS disappear, but I have to agree. A “campus” with lower rise buildings and the tallest tower 30 stories or less sounds better suited to the riverfront. I know we’ve waited a long time for that west side of the square to be built upon but Public Square will always be there. That parcel needs an iconic tower with a more urban neighborhood at Weston.  The new Justice Center Tower could be part of that scenario depending on how it fits into the big picture and its ultimate height and design.  

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If the the Jacobs lot gets something built on it that is not an iconic part of the skyline, that’s really a shame. I don’t think there is any other parcel downtown I would make such a statement about as I am generally for incremental change and believe the perfect is the enemy of the good. But that’s just such a visible and valuable piece of property. This is a happening-enough town that I am confident something really cool can be built there. If SHW builds a blasé 20-story building on the lot, I don’t think it is unreasonable to be disappointed.

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There are a lot of unknowns. If SW just is thinking a Goodyear HQ i would agree they should stay at the river. If they want to do something transformative and have an urban campus with likely a hotel and maybe a showcase sherwin williams store and other shops perhaps creating another type of arcade downtown that would be ok with me. 

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Riverfront, PS and/or Weston, the elephant in the room is what will happen to their current offices?  That's a lot of space that will be vacated.

Edited by Frmr CLEder
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4 minutes ago, Frmr CLEder said:

Riverfront, PS and/or Weston, the elephant in the room is what will happen to their current offices?

I feel that’ll take care of itself. Great location, great views, built in parking, built in mass transit.... It’d make a perfect residential/hotel conversion.

Edited by marty15
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What other company would be capable of building a transformative Key Tower equivalent? I'm most likely wrong, but i don't see any NEO companies that are capable for a looong time.

 

I know this is the shw thread but idk I'm cool with a campus that's OPEN and not closed off. Taller isn't always better, the denser downtown feels, the better.

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1 hour ago, GISguy said:

What other company would be capable of building a transformative Key Tower equivalent? I'm most likely wrong, but i don't see any NEO companies that are capable for a looong time.

 

I know this is the shw thread but idk I'm cool with a campus that's OPEN and not closed off. Taller isn't always better, the denser downtown feels, the better.

What other company?  I think the answer is: We don’t know but it would certainly become more challenging. Perhaps it’s a growing company already downtown (AECOM?), perhaps it is a suburban company looking to move downtown (Progressive) or it could be some company we’ve never thought of looking for a lower cost alternative to their existing locations (JPMorgan - I know they are in Columbus). National news like SHW building a new headquarters downtown will get the word out. A signature tower, as silly as it might seem, also helps get the word out.   

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1 hour ago, marty15 said:

I feel that’ll take care of itself. Great location, great views, built in parking, built in mass transit.... It’d make a perfect residential/hotel conversion.

 

Sherwin Williams owns the historic buildings and manages them.  What they plan to do is really based on what they plan to create.  Building a new HQ doesn't mean they will leave that space all together.  This is why I'm not 100% convinced we'll still get the HQ and that any new building will be over 25 Stories.  One of their options was to renovate the historic buildings. They are on the NRHPs so I feel safe the complex wont be torn down.  But can the interiors be converted?

 

When I was at SOHIO, about 1/3 of the employees were still in the Landmark Tower.  The entire Credit Card business was located in that building.  So were the weather people.  Not everything that was branded SOHIO was in that building.  When the merger took place, we even had people in fifth third.

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11 hours ago, KJP said:

 

Thanks @CleveFan. Click on the Superblock plan graphic. It gives the breakdown on square footage for uses, areas and the total -- 3.5 million square feet. If 1.8 million sf (not including parking) of SHW locates here, it will be roughly half as dense because another 1.17 acres will be part of it. In fact, don't expect an HQ tower on Public Square exceeding 30 stories.

 

It seems like SHW could easily BUILD their NEW HQ + RD buildings on PS + the SOUTHERN HALF of WESTON LOTS.  With an first option to buy the northern WESTON LOT in the future in case of extra growth over and above their existing projections.

 

That way they will save a good amount of money in purchasing the required property. And be able to build a dense urban campus and an appropriate Skyscraper on JACOBS LOT next to PS! 

 

And with that location next to PUBLIC SQUARE it will provide their employees, trainees, and customers with   wonderful access to a world class public space, not to metion being surrounded by great restaurants, entertainment, ect. thats RIGHT IN THE CENTER OF OUR DOWNTOWN!

Edited by Larry1962
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^It would be nice to fill all those surface lots in the WHD in our lifetimes. Build their 30 story HQ's just west of Jacob's lot but not on it. It will be a major win just for them staying downtown alone and don't even want to think of the alternative. Exciting times for Cleveland! Keep the cranes rolling in!

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4 hours ago, GISguy said:

What other company would be capable of building a transformative Key Tower equivalent? I'm most likely wrong, but i don't see any NEO companies that are capable for a looong time.

 

I know this is the shw thread but idk I'm cool with a campus that's OPEN and not closed off. Taller isn't always better, the denser downtown feels, the better.

There could be a lot. Remember, a developer just needs to get a company to commit to a large enough amount of space to get a project off the ground. Some of the companies looking to move downtown mentioned recently could be that anchor tenant, then it's just up to the developer to fill the balance of the space. 

 

Sherwin specifically needs enough office space that eclipses Key Tower, but remember, even Key/Society Bank didn't need all that space when that building was built.

 

To get a Key sized tower, you don't need a Key sized company, just a few of them.

Edited by Mov2Ohio
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8 hours ago, X said:

 

I'm leaning more and more to hoping they go on the riverfront site.  No PS tower + campus style development in the middle of Downtown isn't super exciting to me, from a design/urban liveliness perspective.  Unless of course, they are willing to have ground floor retail on the outward facing facades of their campus.

 

Campus style development along the riverfront could be quite nice however, as long as they are willing to retain a public walk along the riverfront itself.

All of this!  Just look at how terrible P&G is integrated into downtown Cincinnati. There are no public interactions. The colonnade and lawn out front create a giant moat around the towers, and were once the site of an entire city block of historic structures.  All gone. For. A. Lawn. A lawn DOWNTOWN for Pete’s sake. 

It all should have been put on the river somewhere in Cincy as well. 

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Staying on the river seems evolutionary.  It ties it to its past.  Going to PS is revolutionary and would radically change the company perhaps for the better.  They would be buying all new land and need to strive to meet a lot of expectations in the highest profile block in Cleveland. 

  I imagine they just want to focus on paint products and not architecture or retail beyond paint stores.  

   Should they go with the Riverfront bedrock plan, hopefully Huron road can be fixed up like whatever virtual video that came out 6 months ago with running paths along side it. 

Edited by audidave
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 Everything concerning the future headquarters of Sherwin-Williams is nothing more than optimistic speculation ... However, we've now gone from potentially having a super tall skyscraper exceeding 1,000 ft. in height to nothing more than a 25 to 30 stories tall building.

 

I am elated that this homegrown company wants to supposedly remain true to its Cleveland roots, but my goodness the height and stature of whatever might be built is dropping floors faster than the leaves are coming off the tree's.

 

I would be largely disappointed in anything built that has a floor count of less than 40 stories, particularly on the Public Square parcels.

 

Good grief! I really hope that an official announcement is made much sooner as opposed to later.

 

Rant over, carry on ... 

 

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9 hours ago, Chazz Michael Michaels said:

What other company?  I think the answer is: We don’t know but it would certainly become more challenging. Perhaps it’s a growing company already downtown (AECOM?), perhaps it is a suburban company looking to move downtown (Progressive) or it could be some company we’ve never thought of looking for a lower cost alternative to their existing locations (JPMorgan - I know they are in Columbus). National news like SHW building a new headquarters downtown will get the word out. A signature tower, as silly as it might seem, also helps get the word out.   

 

You are right that it could be some company we’ve never thought of looking for a lower cost alternative to their existing locations.

 

Many large east coast corporations are looking for low cost back office locations!  And also many east coast CRE agents and developers are also looking and buying in CLEVELAND such as the former AECOM Centre building, 1111 SUPERIOR AVENUE building (former EATON CENTER), former OHIO MEANS JOBS building, and other locations downtown that are idea for renovation and upgrades that they are pitching to their current customers in NYC, BOSTON, DC, ect...

 

For example:

 

https://www.cleveland.com/realestate-news/2018/06/aecom_centre_in_downtown_cleve.html&ved=2ahUKEwivp8GW_c_lAhXpYd8KHcyuDbAQFjAAegQIBhAB&usg=AOvVaw2uKojCnhRZcYnqVbKJTswG

 

https://www.cleveland.com/realestate-news/2018/10/1111_superior_office_tower_in.html&ved=0ahUKEwjc95n1_8_lAhVpx1kKHbvYDHAQxfQBCNMBMCM&usg=AOvVaw1InwxvWwLsut1OcYQKb5JQ

 

https://www.crainscleveland.com/real-estate/new-york-firm-hatches-downtown-office-play

 

And I'm sure that they are also looking for what to them is relatively low cost land like JACOBS and WESTON LOTS to build new towers since they are fewer "fixer upper" CLASS B+ C BUILDINGS left in the CBD!

Edited by Larry1962
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I think the term "campus" is scaring people, perhaps unnecessarily. If the "campus" looks from above like the Weston-Citymark plan for the Superblock but with most of the tall buildings rising half as tall, that seems like a pretty dense, urban setting.

 

BTW, some of the most enjoyable urban settings I've visited on this planet had zero skyscrapers in them.

Edited by KJP
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"Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities."-Voltaire

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^Agreed 100% KJP. I have to walk through those terrible lots every day on my way home from work. If we can get them all filled in at once with a properly designed urban campus, then I am all for it! What was there before was no more than 10-12 stories tall. We have other lots which I think would be way more iconic with a tower on them. Superior/W Prospect triangle, Lots at W 9th and Johnson Ct, the lot at the Superior/W 9th/Huron intersection to name a few. Smaller footprints which would require taller buildings to make them feasible and are also prominent in skyline shots.

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7 hours ago, John D. Baumgardner said:

 Everything concerning the future headquarters of Sherwin-Williams is nothing more than optimistic speculation ... However, we've now gone from potentially having a super tall skyscraper exceeding 1,000 ft. in height to nothing more than a 25 to 30 stories tall building.

 

I am elated that this homegrown company wants to supposedly remain true to its Cleveland roots, but my goodness the height and stature of whatever might be built is dropping floors faster than the leaves are coming off the tree's.

 

I would be largely disappointed in anything built that has a floor count of less than 40 stories, particularly on the Public Square parcels.

 

Good grief! I really hope that an official announcement is made much sooner as opposed to later.

 

Rant over, carry on ... 

 

I agree the building should be at least 40 stories for the Public Square site, but if the height is more modest at at 25 to 30 stories it would look better by the river's edge site because it wouldn't obscure the TT from the west. I would actually prefer a low rising building there. Also at Public Square SW HQ shouldn't exceed the Key Tower in my opinion due to the pyramidal shape of its crown  makes it an appropriate peak for the city's skyline.

Edited by shack
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I don’t doubt SW could build some significant density in the PS area. My doubt is that it will be an interactive mixed use space that will be pleasing to the average downtown worker. My gut feel is people that think they will have a cool urban vibe to walk through will more likely have to walk around those lots as it will be mostly sealed off to employee only access. 

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29 minutes ago, audidave said:

I don’t doubt SW could build some significant density in the PS area. My doubt is that it will be an interactive mixed use space that will be pleasing to the average downtown worker. My gut feel is people that think they will have a cool urban vibe to walk through will more likely have to walk around those lots as it will be mostly sealed off to employee only access. 

And would  it become a dark zone in evening hours, weekends and holidays? 

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12 hours ago, MyTwoSense said:

Nothing has been determined.

Excellent point.  I think the only true fact we know is that SW will build a new HQ downtown on parcels of land as yet to be determined

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27 minutes ago, NR said:

Something interesting I noticed in this article on Cleveland Zoning from 2016, see quote below.  I wonder if this would have any impact on either SHW or the Courthouse Tower if they were to build on the Weston Lots, would they require shops/restaurants etc. on the first floor of the buildings?

 

"The city's Planning Commission recently approved using a version of form-based zoning for a two-block development proposed by Weston Inc. and Citymark Capital in the city's Warehouse District."

 

Full article here: https://www.cleveland.com/architecture/2016/03/new_zoning_will_require_cultur.html

 

Redirecting from Random Developments:

 

I forgot all about that! And it's there still there...

 

Weston Superblock-overlay from 2016.JPG

Edited by KJP
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"Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities."-Voltaire

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^I think they could still request a variance if the overlay doesn't match with what they're trying to accomplish... how much the City would push back (if at all) would have to be seen.  

 

Variances which are supported by Council members (in this case Kerry McCormack) are usually granted.

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2 hours ago, KJP said:

I think the term "campus" is scaring people, perhaps unnecessarily. If the "campus" looks from above like the Weston-Citymark plan for the Superblock but with most of the tall buildings rising half as tall, that seems like a pretty dense, urban setting.

 

BTW, some of the most enjoyable urban settings I've visited on this planet had zero skyscrapers in them.

 

Totally agree as far as the Weston-Citymark parcel is concerned. But as far as the Jacobs lot, don't you think it's a real missed opportunity to frame public square for decades if the Jacobs lot has something dinky on it?

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1 minute ago, LlamaLawyer said:

 

Totally agree as far as the Weston-Citymark parcel is concerned. But as far as the Jacobs lot, don't you think it's a real missed opportunity to frame public square for decades if the Jacobs lot has something dinky on it?

 

There is no guarantee that something else will be built there any time soon.  I guess I'd rather get a smaller corporate headquarters building that a parking lot for the foreseeable future.  

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2 hours ago, YO to the CLE said:

^That's where the city comes in...Whether or not they want to play hardball with a fortune 500 company is a separate matter.

They shouldn’t 

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46 minutes ago, freefourur said:

 

There is no guarantee that something else will be built there any time soon.  I guess I'd rather get a smaller corporate headquarters building that a parking lot for the foreseeable future.  

If SHW isn’t on the Jacobs lot, the new JC probably will be, love it or hate it

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6 minutes ago, inlovewithCLE said:

If SHW isn’t on the Jacobs lot, the new JC probably will be, love it or hate it

 

I have no issue with this, as long as the design is appropriate.    Public Square is the heart of our city, where commerce, transit and civic functions meet.   

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37 minutes ago, Cleburger said:

 

I have no issue with this, as long as the design is appropriate.    Public Square is the heart of our city, where commerce, transit and civic functions meet.   

Agreed no issue with this outcome.   If SHW is interested in a mid-, lo- rise campus then fine - just please don't use the PS lot for that.  Public Square is a unique, historic space area that deserves an iconic tower.  As KJP indicated, enjoyable cities around the world often do not have skyscrapers BUT cities with skyscrapers often have these types of buildings clustered together in a district that creates where they are dramatic and exclusive setting (see Midtown Manhattan, Miracle Mile Chicago,  Canary Wharf London, etc).  Public Square should be Cleveland's setting for these types of towers.

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time to take a look at a few newer urban corporate campuses?

 

 

partners healthcare boston

 

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centene clayton

 

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royal carribean miami

 

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jp morgan dallas

 

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lg science park seoul

 

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uber mission bay

 

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mixed use corporate campus renton

 

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giant -- shanghai

 

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trivago dusseldorf

 

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6 minutes ago, mrnyc said:

time to take a look at a few newer urban corporate campuses?

 

 

partners healthcare boston

 

spacer.png

 

 

That Partners Healthcare in Boston is a great campus example. It’s right at the new MBTA Orange Line infill station at Assembly Square in Somerville. That whole development is an excellent example of transit oriented development. 

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All are low-to-mid rise but since I'm not an engineer, I'll ask those who are...would SW require core samples for a low-to-mid rise building if they're built on pads?

Edited by Frmr CLEder
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