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Cleveland: Sherwin-Williams' Headquarters

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7 hours ago, Larry1962 said:

Nice pic! 

But shouldn't it be shown behind the 200 P.S. building and only visible if it's taller?

Maybe I should have placed it a little further to the right, but if you look on a map and draw a straight line from Euclid to the lot, whatever is build would be visible. The tower would have to be nearly taller than 1100ft to poke above 200 P.S. Building from that perspective.

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6 hours ago, CleveFan said:

I’d be fine with having ASPhotoman design the actual tower!  Like most, I would love to see Cleveland get a 1000 footer. Remembering our proud history of having the country’s tallest building outside NY for many years - it would be a statement about this city’s resilience in a new century. But even something a bit taller than the Terminal Tower would be a blockbuster  - and especially with the right design,  positively change the skyline for the long-waiting-faithful and a new generation headed back to the city. 

Hey, I wouldn't mind that job. 😛 But the building in the photo I made was the Wilshire Grand Center in LA. I felt like something like that would fit in well with our skyline. Not so boxy, and modern enough to add more diversity in design for the 600+ ft buildings.

 

Also, whatever Sherwin Williams builds, it'd be almost stupid not to make some statement with color. If you check out photos of the Wilshire Grand Center at night, you can see they have LED strips that can change colors for certain occasions. 

34566840755_10380973dd_b.jpg

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15 hours ago, Pugu said:

 

There's a restaurant on the 8th floor of the Republic/Midland Bldg (I can't call it "Landmark")?  Is it open to the public or just SW employees? If public, what's it called and is it any good? Is there a view?

 

The restaurant is for building employees only.  Probably should call it a cafeteria I guess.  I liked the food when I worked there!  The view wasn't anything great (mostly "courtyard" views).

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38 minutes ago, plinth857 said:

 

The restaurant is for building employees only.  Probably should call it a cafeteria I guess.  I liked the food when I worked there!  The view wasn't anything great (mostly "courtyard" views).

 

I used to go there when I worked in the TC complex.  No one really checked to see if you worked in the building.  Perhaps, it has changed. 

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3 minutes ago, freefourur said:

 

I used to go there when I worked in the TC complex.  No one really checked to see if you worked in the building.  Perhaps, it has changed. 

 

True, no one checks, but lately it seems like there is more security on the bottom floor to make sure you work there before you even get on the elevators.  I haven't worked there in a few years, myself.

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1 hour ago, ASPhotoman said:

Maybe I should have placed it a little further to the right, but if you look on a map and draw a straight line from Euclid to the lot, whatever is build would be visible. The tower would have to be nearly taller than 1100ft to poke above 200 P.S. Building from that perspective.

 

Yeah, a little to the right but not by much. 

 

SW1100.thumb.jpg.b3af04a177301a6ebf84cb9b85d57486.jpg

Edited by viscomi
This 1100 ft btw

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It would be great to have a 1,300 super tall, that would make us #5 in the country. Plus, if the R&D/parking deck could be at least 500ft or more... it would change our skyline drastically!  That may be asking for a little much, but one could hope.

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That Sherwin-Williams article got to 1,000 clicks faster than any article I've written for NEOtrans. Some background -- there's an intentional error in the article to protect a source which I will correct as more info comes out. And readers here should also know that the few (like, two or three) CM firms that received the RFQ all have something in common... They've all built skyscrapers in Cleveland, including structures that required caissons to be dug to bedrock. A few others that have built 10-20-something-story buildings but have no experience with caissons were not sent the RFQ. I checked with sources at two of them and both say they haven't received anything. And it's not like it hasn't arrived in the mail yet. The RFQs were sent out a couple of weeks ago. I was advised not to read too much into the very small number of firms and the experience of those firms, but how could I not??

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"Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities."-Voltaire

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15 minutes ago, KJP said:

That Sherwin-Williams article got to 1,000 clicks faster than any article I've written for NEOtrans. Some background -- there's an intentional error in the article to protect a source which I will correct as more info comes out. And readers here should also know that the few (like, two or three) CM firms that received the RFQ all have something in common... They've all built skyscrapers in Cleveland, including structures that required caissons to be dug to bedrock. A few others that have built 10-20-something-story buildings but have no experience with caissons were not sent the RFQ. I checked with sources at two of them and both say they haven't received anything. And it's not like it hasn't arrived in the mail yet. The RFQs were sent out a couple of weeks ago. I was advised not to read too much into the very small number of firms and the experience of those firms, but how could I not??

I think it says a lot about the support and enthusiasm from the community about SW's new headquarters and it's possible PS location. As always, thanks KJP for keeping us abreast of developments.

Of course, we can all help SW pay down their debt by buying SW products. Despite lots of competition, all of the paint for my new house has been SW. 

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4 hours ago, ASPhotoman said:

Hey, I wouldn't mind that job. 😛 But the building in the photo I made was the Wilshire Grand Center in LA. I felt like something like that would fit in well with our skyline. Not so boxy, and modern enough to add more diversity in design for the 600+ ft buildings.

 

Also, whatever Sherwin Williams builds, it'd be almost stupid not to make some statement with color. If you check out photos of the Wilshire Grand Center at night, you can see they have LED strips that can change colors for certain occasions. 

34566840755_10380973dd_b.jpg

 

 

I thought that that was Wilshire Grand center in your original post. I watched that being built and have been to the restaurant on the top many times. I call it the “Korean Air” building because they have their logo on the top. 

 

Its a beautiful building, if a bit skinny. It’s great to look at when it’s lit up. 

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On 8/24/2019 at 4:55 PM, AsDustinFoxWouldSay said:

I can't believe the city center is competing with an outer ring suburb for a Fortune 500 company in this day and age. What in the world is with this region? I was researching the amount of corporations that remain in Cincinnati and it blows my mind the comparison of major jobs between us and out Sourthern brother. The amount of sprawl in this region is appalling and the possibility of Sherwin Williams moving to Brecksville just shows NEO continues to circle the drain.

 

Of course it is.   Much depends on the character of a company, its business and its priorities.   

 

Manufacturers, for example, have little or no incentive, other than perhaps tradition, to spend money on expensive office space in a dense area.   ISG, for example, had their headquarters in Richfield and we all know about Eaton, Ferro, et al.   Progressive was somewhat of a special case, it was one big issue. Peter Lewis was listening to his people and city government was listening to parking lot operators.  But usually it's a lot of smaller things.

 

The R&D center makes sense, because for a paint company we're talking about chemists and other scientific types.  They aren't known for an affinity for density, or crowds for that matter.   Valor Acres (note the acronym) makes a lot of sense there.   The HQ is going to be a matter of higher ups preferences, and ego.  If I had to bet I would bet it will be downtown, it will be spectacular, at least 1,000 feet,  and it will be somewhat insular.

 

Again, the parking guys won't be happy.   I think their influence is less that it was with White, though.

 

The people of this region don't find "sprawl" the least bit appalling.   It's important to keep that in mind when trying to make things happen.

Edited by E Rocc
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51 minutes ago, E Rocc said:

 

Of course it is.   Much depends on the character of a company, its business and its priorities.   

 

Manufacturers, for example, have little or no incentive, other than perhaps tradition, to spend money on expensive office space in a dense area.   ISG, for example, had their headquarters in Richfield and we all know about Eaton, Ferro, et al.   Progressive was somewhat of a special case, it was one big issue. Peter Lewis was listening to his people and city government was listening to parking lot operators.  But usually it's a lot of smaller things.

 

The R&D center makes sense, because for a paint company we're talking about chemists and other scientific types.  They aren't known for an affinity for density, or crowds for that matter.   Valor Acres (note the acronym) makes a lot of sense there.   The HQ is going to be a matter of higher ups preferences, and ego.  If I had to bet I would bet it will be downtown, it will be spectacular, at least 1,000 feet,  and it will be somewhat insular.

 

Again, the parking guys won't be happy.   I think their influence is less that it was with White, though.

 

The people of this region don't find "sprawl" the least bit appalling.   It's important to keep that in mind when trying to make things happen.

 

You're not a spokesperson for the "people of this region". It's important to keep that in mind.

 

If this were 1985, I'd totally agree with you, but it's not. The people you speak of who've encouraged sprawl are either dead, retired, less influential or living in Florida now. There's a lot of folks (even at the county level) working on fixing the mistakes of yesteryears.

Edited by Clefan98
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What is with your preoccupation/opposition with density @E Rocc? If anything, density is essential for greater commercial interaction. The most successful markets (in a variety of uses of the term) exist in places with some of the greatest density. Cleveland is not that dense, so I wonder what the concern is with a density that no longer exists.

 

Specifically, I was told that the R&D facility is no more of a hazardous materials concern than a college lab, many of which are co-located in buildings with other uses like classrooms and offices. It's why the GSA wasn't concerned about locating the new federal courthouse tower across a narrow street (Canal Rd) from SHW's Breen Center.

 

While it's a broad brush, creative people tend to enjoy living and working in cities. I would think creative people would be working in the R&D facility. 

Edited by KJP
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 Ummmm......I call on the labs at SW all the time.  They are filled with a variety of people from all different walks of life.  but I can tell you that many of them already live downtown and would hate being moved out to the outer burbs.  And KJP, youre correct in saying that the labs are more like college labs.  The Canal Road tech center does all of the Architectural coatings work.  So its almost all water-based or high solids chemistry.   

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1 hour ago, mack34 said:

 Ummmm......I call on the labs at SW all the time.  They are filled with a variety of people from all different walks of life.  but I can tell you that many of them already live downtown and would hate being moved out to the outer burbs.  And KJP, youre correct in saying that the labs are more like college labs.  The Canal Road tech center does all of the Architectural coatings work.  So its almost all water-based or high solids chemistry.   

 

Some of my friends even hated when they were moved from downtown to Hinckley Pkwy! I couldn't imagine the level of hate if they were placed in the outer burbs. I know my gf would be the first in line to leave SHW if they ever decide to ghost downtown.

Edited by Clefan98
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Just now, KJP said:

What is with your preoccupation/opposition with density @E Rocc? If anything, density is essential for greater commercial interaction. The most successful markets (in a variety of uses of the term) exist in places with some of the greatest density. Cleveland is not that dense, so I wonder what the concern is with a density that no longer exists.

 

Specifically, I was told that the R&D facility is no more of a hazardous materials concern than a college lab, many of which are co-located in buildings with other uses like classrooms and offices. It's why the GSA wasn't concerned about locating the new federal courthouse tower across a narrow street (Canal Rd) from SHW's Breen Center.

 

While it's a broad brush, creative people tend to enjoy living and working in cities. I would think creative people would be working in the R&D facility. 

The only thing his post was missing was a mention of the autistic spectrum.

Edited by sizzlinbeef
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I worked at Breen about a decade ago. The hazard is with the oil based coatings. You need to work under hoods to vent the fumes, else you might get light headed after sampling for a couple hours. Alkyd Oil based paint work was the worst of it though, so a pretty manageable issue in any type of facility.

 

We physically ran these tests up to corporate daily. Again that was 10 years ago so it might be a digitized process at this point. 

 

edit:

@Pugu I was using oil and alkyd interchangeably, which was confusing after I looked at it again.   

Edited by viscomi
clarification
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14 hours ago, viscomi said:

I worked at Breen about a decade ago. The hazard is with the oil based coatings. You need to work under hoods to vent the fumes, else you might get light headed after sampling for a couple hours. Alkyd work was the worst of it though, so a pretty managable issues in any type of facility.

 

what is Alkyd work?

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14 hours ago, viscomi said:

I worked at Breen about a decade ago. The hazard is with the oil based coatings. You need to work under hoods to vent the fumes, else you might get light headed after sampling for a couple hours. Alkyd work was the worst of it though, so a pretty managable issues in any type of facility.

 

We physically ran these tests up to corporate daily. Again that was 10 years ago so it might be a digitized process at this point. 

 

FWIW - I doubt they're digitized just because that would be an access target for bad actors looking to get on SHW's network. But maybe it is, I'm sure they have a bulky IT dept

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25 minutes ago, YABO713 said:

 

FWIW - I doubt they're digitized just because that would be an access target for bad actors looking to get on SHW's network. But maybe it is, I'm sure they have a bulky IT dept

 

And their IT department is getting bigger. Crain's reported last week that SHW is hiring another 60 people for their IT department.

 

Correction - Stan Bullard of Crain's tweeted that.

Edited by KJP
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When someone here asked about SHW needing to assemble its capital stack prior to building its headquarters/research facilities, I kept thinking of a better way to respond than I had. When I saw an article this morning discussing why someone should invest in SHW stock, that's when it hit me. Consider that....

 

+ SHW is proposing 1.8 million square feet of new facilities.

+ A global headquarters and major research facility for this Fortune 500 company is probably going to cost roughly $1,000 per square foot (vs $224/sf for the luxury Lumen apartment tower).

+ This gigantic undertaking is going to cost SHW somewhere in the neighborhood of $1.8 BILLION.

+ SHW's net operating cash flow is nearly $2 billion per year (a 49% increase from 2016 thanks to the Valspar acquisition and almost double the amount from 2014).

+ Once it pays down the Valspar debt, SHW "could" pay for this gigantic HQ+R&D capital investment as a "current liability", ie: with less than one year of cash.

+ In 2008 and 2009, SHW's net operating cash flow was $876 million and $859 million, respectively. This is a very resilient company. So even if there is a recession, SHW could probably still afford this 1.8-million-square-foot HQ+R&D facility with little difficulty.

 

** Oh, and one more thing, given these numbers, I don't think whatever public incentives Cleveland or Brecksville can offer are going to make a big difference to SHW. I'm not saying SHW is going to spend like a drunken sailor for this project. But I am saying that other aspects (prestige, access to amenities, public relations, corporate values/tradition/history, etc) are going to guide this decision.

Edited by KJP
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32 minutes ago, KJP said:

When someone here asked about SHW needing to assemble its capital stack prior to building its headquarters/research facilities, I kept thinking of a better way to respond than I had. When I saw an article this morning discussing why someone should invest in SHW stock, that's when it hit me. Consider that....

 

+ SHW is proposing 1.8 million square feet of new facilities.

+ A global headquarters and major research facility for this Fortune 500 company is probably going to cost roughly $1,000 per square foot (vs $224/sf for the luxury Lumen apartment tower).

+ This gigantic undertaking is going to cost SHW somewhere in the neighborhood of $1.8 BILLION.

+ SHW's net operating cash flow is nearly $2 billion per year (a 49% increase from 2016 thanks to the Valspar acquisition and almost double the amount from 2014).

+ Once it pays down the Valspar debt, SHW "could" pay for this gigantic HQ+R&D capital investment as a "current liability", ie: with less than one year of cash.

+ In 2008 and 2009, SHW's net operating cash flow was $876 million and $859 million, respectively. This is a very resilient company. So even if there is a recession, SHW could probably still afford this 1.8-million-square-foot HQ+R&D facility with little difficulty.

 

** Oh, and one more thing, given these numbers, I don't think whatever public incentives Cleveland or Brecksville can offer are going to make a big difference to SHW. I'm not saying SHW is going to spend like a drunken sailor for this project. But I am saying that other aspects (prestige, access to amenities, public relations, corporate values/tradition/history, etc) are going to guide this decision.

SW deserves to take its rightful place on Public Square.

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@KJP After talks with your contacts, what are the chances SHW would build their HQ+R&D+Parking garage all in one single tower on public square?

 

Maybe pass 1,455ft for the second tallest in the USA.  

Edited by NR
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This is going to be a long couple years lol, although it seems like things are moving in a very positive direction (albeit I'm sure a lot can change in a project like this between now and groundbreaking *fingers crossed no repeat of anything close to 2008*). In the meantime, I'm going to continue to curse at the surface parking lol 

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1 hour ago, NR said:

Maybe pass 1,455 sqft for the second tallest in the USA.  

 

1455 ft is probably not likely, although that would be amazing to see...

I think a 1000 ft HQ and a 400-500 ft R&D is much more reasonable and would have just a much of an impact (density and height-wise) as something that tall:

image.png.4fdcbcfdfe2061fa0f2abd1314bdeec6.png

 

 

Nonetheless, I present the 1400+ tower proposition for ***** and giggles:

image.png.61d6e8750e8421fa348627412f045ff3.png

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3 minutes ago, Geowizical said:
 

1455 ft is probably not likely, although that would be amazing to see...

I think a 1000 ft HQ and a 400-500 ft R&D is much more reasonable and would have just a much of an impact (density and height-wise) as something that tall:

image.png.4fdcbcfdfe2061fa0f2abd1314bdeec6.png

 

 

Nonetheless, I present the 1400+ tower proposition for ***** and giggles:

image.png.61d6e8750e8421fa348627412f045ff3.png

Personally, I prefer Figure 1.  It provides greater density.  Key Tower already sticks out in relationship to other downtown towers and 1400+ is even more pronounced than Key.

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2 hours ago, NR said:

@KJP After talks with your contacts, what are the chances SHW would build their HQ+R&D+Parking garage all in one single tower on public square?

 

Maybe pass 1,455 sqft for the second tallest in the USA.  

 

Unknown. Since multiple sites are being considered, no one knows where it will go, so it's impossible to know how tall it could be. Details about site, height, number of buildings, etc. probably won't be known for a year or so.

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3 hours ago, Geowizical said:
 

1455 ft is probably not likely, although that would be amazing to see...

I think a 1000 ft HQ and a 400-500 ft R&D is much more reasonable and would have just a much of an impact (density and height-wise) as something that tall:

image.png.4fdcbcfdfe2061fa0f2abd1314bdeec6.png

 

 

Nonetheless, I present the 1400+ tower proposition for ***** and giggles:

image.png.61d6e8750e8421fa348627412f045ff3.png

The second rendering made me lol! Love it. Thanks for the nice sketchup, would love to see your first rendering a reality. 

Edited by Nickel Plate RR
Typo
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On 8/27/2019 at 5:41 PM, sizzlinbeef said:

The only thing his post was missing was a mention of the autistic spectrum.

 

In an R&D center, we’re talking about experimentation, not marketing.   Chemistry.   Hard science.    Probably a pilot plant or two that doesn’t always smell very good.

 

Even when Ferro Corporation was headquartered downtown, their tech center was in Independence.   Set back from the road, even.

 

Lots of people of all types will be found working in a major tech center, just like a college campus.   But success or failure is often determined by a small group of geniuses. 

 

And yeah, they may be on the spectrum.   They often are.  But in 2019, that’s not even considered an insult, except by the ignorant, dense, or undereducated.  The people in question embrace the term, more often than not.

 

 

IMG_8209.JPG

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19 minutes ago, Terdolph said:

Case nerds.

 

LOL back in the day I was all about being as opposite of that stereotype as I could while maintaining a more or less acceptable GPA.    Now I just go with.....

 

 

stooges.jpg

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Just out of respect for the other buildings, I'd rather have the shorter 1100' tower. Our skyline would look very odd with a single building over 1400' tall. Plus, a second R&D tower looks very nice.

 

Maybe far into the future a 1400' tower would look fine. We just need more 1000'+ towers to help it blend in better.

Edited by CLE_Millennial
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It would be amazing to have a 1,000-foot supertall. It would be just as amazing to see a significant (30+ story) tower(s) built on these God-awful parking lots.

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5 hours ago, E Rocc said:

 

LOL back in the day I was all about being as opposite of that stereotype as I could while maintaining a more or less acceptable GPA.    Now I just go with.....

 

 

stooges.jpg

Double alum.....

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6 hours ago, KJP said:

It would be amazing to have a 1,000-foot supertall. It would be just as amazing to see a significant (30+ story) tower(s) built on these God-awful parking lots.

Agreed!

 

Those horrendous parking lot eye-sores have been there for more than 30 years; since before the Rennaisance Hotel, since before Stouffers Inn on the Square, since before the Sheraton Cleveland. 

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19 hours ago, CLE_Millennial said:

Just out of respect for the other buildings, I'd rather have the shorter 1100' tower. Our skyline would look very odd with a single building over 1400' tall. Plus, a second R&D tower looks very nice.

 

Maybe far into the future a 1400' tower would look fine. We just need more 1000'+ towers to help it blend in better.

 

Some of you are getting greedy wanting both LOL.   I know that putting the HQ in Brecksville as well was at least considered.

 

One other thought:  putting a few miles between the R&D center and HQ is good for making it a little tougher for the execs and marketing types to drop in and "help".  🙂

 

I want as tall as practical.   A few floors of garage to boost the height, even.   For over thirty years we had the tallest building in the US outside Manhattan, and it was well over twice as tall as the 2nd tallest here.

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