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KJP

Cleveland: Sherwin-Williams' Headquarters

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Well, most of this discussion has been building one at the expense of the other development.  But say magically, all three could be built.  How cool would a new skyscraper be.  I hear the arguments for smaller scale, and for the most part I agree.  But if there is one spot in the city that is appropriate for a monster tall building, this is it.

 

 

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It would be cool to have our cake and eat it too, but am I the only one who thinks that the original design is heinous? It looks like a Star Destroyer and the Ren Cen in Detroit collided. If it's going to be the tallest building down there, make it pretty!

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there is no chance the original design would be used today by jacobs. it's woefully outdated. at the very least it would be modified.

 

as for residential not being a large part of pesht...i could not disagree more kjp, look at those renderings again. also look at any other new infill in any city...it's mostly residential. this is thee current real estate boom, people moving back to downtown urban living. for one prime example, check out san diego these days.

 

jacobs is an office/hotel tower (definately well ok prob with a couple floors of something residential as its de riguer in any new mixed use large tower, ceo rooms, guest rooms etc., but whatever), otoh pesht is all lower rise mixed use w/ maybe with a few smaller towers if and when possible. total buildout of pesht is also dependent on the port authority move, which seems quite a long way off at the moment.

 

so it seems that since jacobs owns the land they could move first if they wanted to. certainly stark and wolstein and others are well aware of this.

 

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Note in this massing I posted in the Pesht thread how little residential is being considered for Pesht by Stark. Most of it is office (shown in blue). Stark told me the residential (in red) would come in a later stage of construction when the market improves.

 

http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php?topic=2591.msg215117#msg215117

 

Also, I recall reading an article recently that the residential market has cooled nationwide, but is still ticking along in all but a few places -- New York City being one of them. Anyone else recall the article or can post a link to it?


"Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities."-Voltaire

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KJP, your comments above suggesting the residential portion of the FEB will be delayed is something I have never heard before (and quite disappointing).  Can you give us the source of the information?

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"Delayed" probably wasn't the right word. Their initial focus is to secure leases from non-residential tenants -- office and hotel. I was told that by someone in the Shaia family. They're the folks who proposed Lighthouse Landing and then reached a joint development agreement with Wolstein for their West 10th Street land. Nancy Lesic, Wolstein's PR person, comfirmed that approach to leasing is Wolstein's initial focus.


"Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities."-Voltaire

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Also, I recall reading an article recently that the residential market has cooled nationwide, but is still ticking along in all but a few places -- New York City being one of them. Anyone else recall the article or can post a link to it?

 

Make that parts of NY.  Now that the Foreclosure monster has taken NY by the balls, we're seeing the crunch. 

 

If you look at places like Harlem of Fort Green, Bed Stuy or Williamsburg, which were all given the moniker of the "next hot neighborhoods".  Property in those areas has cooled significantly.  There are 6 condo developments within 4 blocks of my house, that are having a hard time selling.  Two release a large number of units into rentals.  Houses in NYC are staying on the market longer than ever before.

 

I say build the damn tower, if marketed properly and the local real estate community gets on board they could make this Cleveland's finest address.  I would love to live in a 70 story skyscraper, hotel, condo, mixed use property.

 

I've read here that people don't move into the city because the type of housing that young, new people to the region or first time home owners is not available in the city.  Here's a way to correct that and market the continued resurgence of the City's core.

 

It's so easy to plan a city using someone else's imaginary money.

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So what happens if no new commercial project is approved and these companies in need of expansion to new Class A buildings is unavailable?  Couldn't that cause a company like Eaton to packup and leave Cleveland?  Then we have another empty building, loss tax income, and loss of jobs. 

 

If you build it they will come.  (Does that work?)

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No, that doesn't work.  These projects will be built because companies are looking for the space, not vice-versa.  For these companies to have nowhere to go as you suggest, all of these developers would have to decide that they don't want to bother doing a development in Downtown Cleveland.  Since there is a chance to make money, and they want to make money, I think that is unlikely.

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ciccolmt, I guess I am confused by your use of the language "if no commercial project is approved" language as if there is some governmental approval process (other than the standard ones which every project goes through).  Perhaps you are referring to approval in terms of financing.  Like X said the developers are courting tenants such as Eaton.  If they can make a deal that makes sense, something will get built.  And of all the leases (companies) mentioned, I cannot imagine any will be leaving town (in fact hasn't somebody suggested that Eaton has decided against new construction...maybe there landlord decided to give them a great deal they could not pass up at their current digs).

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Let's also not forget that Jacobs intentionally emptied the Breuer Tower of tenants to keep rents up in other buildings in town.  70 stories is a lot of floor space.  (How full is the BP building, by the way?)  If for some reason this tower gets built and attracts several large employers out of other buildings, which existing office tower is going to get the Breuer treatment? 

 

C'mon Stark!  I'd much rather see 7 10-story buildings (and all of the potential increase in sidewalk-interaction) than a new 70-story icon on public square. 

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C'mon X, what do you expect.  Tribe know's best.

 

How many pages do you think this thread will go before we get an official statement.  I bet on 9.

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kjp if you are implying that from an article you read you know that residential has cooled off so much in cleveland.....then it just wont happen for stark or wolstein. so if thats the case and any new residential is so bad an idea right now i'd say that easily settles it --- jacobs should build the big office tower.

 

when clev is ready for more residential than the avenue+conversions it will be built.

 

frankly, after that now i am wondering if any part of the big three will get built anytime soon. c'mon clevesters - forgeddabout nyc - but otoh columbus just built a schweet new res tower downtown. eh?

 

 

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kjp if you are implying that from an article you read you know that residential has cooled off so much in cleveland.....then it just wont happen for stark or wolstein. so if thats the case and any new residential is so bad an idea right now i'd say that easily settles it --- jacobs should build the big office tower.

 

when clev is ready for more residential than the avenue+conversions it will be built.

 

frankly, after that now i am wondering if any part of the big three will get built anytime soon. c'mon clevesters - forgeddabout nyc - but otoh columbus just built a schweet new res tower downtown. eh?

 

I think that you are overreacting a bit (respectfully said).

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I'm surprised you're having such a hard time swallowing the fact that the residential real estate market is in the toilet, mrnyc. You're usually very well informed. Please consider these articles I selected from among many many others on the same subject....

 

___________________________

 

Mortgage crash hits new home sales

Sales hit 7-year low as lower prices can't clear out huge glut, new government report shows.

By Chris Isidore, CNNMoney.com senior writer

September 27 2007: 12:30 PM EDT

 

NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- The mortgage bomb hit the demand for new homes even harder than expected in August, leaving the nation's builders with their weakest level of sales since the summer of 2000, when the nation was struggling with a stock market collapse, rising interest rates and a looming recession.

 

Read more:

http://money.cnn.com/2007/09/27/news/economy/new_home_sales/index.htm

 

___________________________

 

Housing Foreclosures Jumped 90% in May From Year Ago

By Reuters | 12 Jun 2007 | 04:11 PM ET

 

U.S. home foreclosures in May jumped 90% from a year earlier, reflecting a poor spring housing market and foreshadowing even higher levels later in 2007, real estate data firm RealtyTrac said on Tuesday.

 

The May foreclosures -- a sum of default notices, auction sale notices and bank repossessions -- totaled 176,137, up 19% from April, the firm said in its May 2007 U.S. Foreclosure Market Report.

 

Read more:

http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/19193611

 

___________________________

 

Home sales thud to 5-year low point

Realtors say sales of existing homes dropped for sixth consecutive month, to lowest level in 5 years; separate report shows steepest price drop in 16 years.

 

By Les Christie, CNNMoney.com

September 25 2007: 4:17 PM EDT

 

NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- Housing markets continued to slump across the nation in August as the number of existing homes sold dropped for the sixth straight month to their lowest level in five years, according to the latest report from the National Association of Realtors.

 

Read more:

http://money.cnn.com/2007/09/25/real_estate/low_existing_home_sales/index.htm

 

___________________________

 

The New Money Pit

It started with subprime mortgages. Now owners of McMansions are defaulting, and the effects of the housing bust are beginning to ripple through the economy.

 

By Daniel Gross

Newsweek

 

Sept. 10, 2007 issue - Walking through the gated community of Black Mountain Vista on a hill in Henderson, Nev., Thomas Blanchard offers a guided tour of real-estate woe. A row of stucco duplexes that recently sold for as much as $500,000 sit empty. "That's a repo," the real-estate agent says as he stands in front of 678 Solitude Point Avenue. Then he points to the adjacent houses, where yellow patches blot the spartan lawns and phone books lie on front porches, their covers bleached from weeks under the desert sun. "No. 680, repo; 684, repo. Those two at the end, repo."

 

Read more:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20546324/site/newsweek/

 

___________________________

 

Foreclosures Force Suburbs to Fight Blight

New York Times

By ERIK ECKHOLM

Published: March 23, 2007

 

SHAKER HEIGHTS, Ohio — In a sign of the spreading economic fallout of mortgage foreclosures, several suburbs of Cleveland, one of the nation’s hardest-hit cities, are spending millions of dollars to maintain vacant houses as they try to contain blight and real-estate panic.

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/23/us/23vacant.html

 

___________________________

 

 

http://www.housingfinance.com/ahf/articles/2007/jun/GHOST0607.htm

 

Ghost Towns

Subprime foreclosures could wreak havoc on apartment values

By Jerry Ascierto and Dana Enfinger

AFFORDABLE HOUSING FINANCE • JUNE 2007

 

The East Side Organizing Project (ESOP) has a creative way of getting a predatory lender’s attention—dumping 2,000 small plastic sharks on the lawn of the lending company’s top executive.

 

Cleveland has been hit particularly hard—13,610 homes were foreclosed last year in Cuyahoga County alone, more than quadruple the 3,345 foreclosures filed in 1995, and up almost 25 percent from the 9,751 filed in 2004. That’s one foreclosure for every 96 people in the county. The U.S. Department of Housing and Urban Development’s stock of foreclosed homes numbers 28,338 nationally, and of those, 3,117, or about 9 percent, are in Ohio.


"Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities."-Voltaire

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I'm surprised you're having such a hard time swallowing the fact that the residential real estate market is in the toilet, mrnyc. You're usually very well informed.

 

huh? im surprized you are trying to put words in my mouth i never said nor implied. i never said it wasnt.

 

i did say if its such a tough residential market locally than obviously of "the big three" they should build the long planned jacobs office tower. its just offices & a hotel.

 

i also said regardless of the res market in general locally the avenue is going up (& the aforementioned new columbus res tower is about done, and lets add in the interesting ascent res tower in the cinci area while we're at it).

 

 

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huh? im surprized you are trying to put words in my mouth i never said nor implied. i never said it wasnt.

 

Sure sounded like ya did. Doesn't matter. Nothing we say on here will have any effect on what actually gets built anyway.


"Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities."-Voltaire

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what the hell do foreclosures have to do with an office and hotel tower

 

 

skylinewameritrust.jpg

 

ahh.....a gap in the skyline filled .....sorta

 

i give a skyscraper rising on public square more chance than pesht now. stark seems adamant about building a cracker park in solon now...all after sayin "im tired of the suburbs"

 

 

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That was a response to mrnyc. Thanks for paying attention.


"Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities."-Voltaire

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I'll take our current downtown any day over downtown C'bus and its new residential tower.  No offense but I would.  You think our downtown has a lot of parking lots?!

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I wonder how much of the paperwork/planning/ red tape stuff is still valid since the last time he proposed a tower

 

Probably none of it. Other than he owns the land, and the land is zoned for a tall mixed use tower.

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I don't understand how our town has so many parking lots yet it's hard to find parking.  I mean, we've lost so much population over the years -  did everyone just leave their cars?

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i don't know why everyone is so excited.  Nothing will ever happen.  Too much bureaucracy.

 

You mean the bureacracy that approved Cleveland Clinic's $500 million Heart Center in three months?

 

The suburbs would be lucky to expedite the approvals process so rapidly.

 

I wasn't paying attention...  i.e. KJP    ^^^^     :-P :-P :-P

( i make joke!)

 

I'd suggest you get more practice at making jokes except that you'll offend more people in your learning process.


"Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities."-Voltaire

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