Jump to content
KJP

Cleveland: Sherwin-Williams' Headquarters

Recommended Posts

17 hours ago, KJP said:

A parking tax has to be applied equally to all parking lots or a court will call it a punitive tax and set it aside.

 

And the State of Ohio prohibits municipalities from levying more than an 8 percent tax on gross parking revenues. Cleveland's parking tax is 8 percent.

How well is this tax enforced considering much of the surface parking lot transactions are done in cash?  The surface parking lot lobby is such a racket.  Would love to tax them out of existence.  Lower taxes on building owners and/or give the extra proceeds to the RTA.

  • Like 1
  • Love 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, NYC Boomerang said:

How well is this tax enforced considering much of the surface parking lot transactions are done in cash?  The surface parking lot lobby is such a racket.  Would love to tax them out of existence.  Lower taxes on building owners and/or give the extra proceeds to the RTA.

 

Lots of agreement on this site.  Would help to have the downtown business district (at least) use a land tax -- higher tax on the land to encourage owners to build up to generate more revenue per acre.  Pittsburgh has a land tax, right?  How many surface lots in downtown Pittsburgh disappeared after enactment?  (Admittedly, Pittsburgh's hill-bounded downtown was never as spread-out as Cleveland's so they probably never had as much surface parking as we do.)

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think in reality the Jacobs lot problem is a different animal than other surface lots downtown, most of which are owned by those in the "parking lot business".  While I am sure the lot does make money for the company, I imagine it is not a huge revenue source when compared to their primary focus (which unfortunately is currently developing green fields in far out suburbia which is an issue for another thread). 

 

While this is pure speculation on my part, I think the company holds onto the property because they want to be part of a huge re-development of the lot and despite their good efforts over the past 30 years (or maybe some not so good efforts) they have not been able to put something together that works.  Still, they hold on despite the embarrassment that lot is to the city.

 

Maybe they are just "tired" after years of trying (similar to poor Forest City and Tower City...making that mall work again just plain exhausted the company and their people) and it is time to sell for a decent profit to somebody with a fresh approach.

Edited by Htsguy
  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Foraker said:

 

Lots of agreement on this site.  Would help to have the downtown business district (at least) use a land tax -- higher tax on the land to encourage owners to build up to generate more revenue per acre.  Pittsburgh has a land tax, right?  How many surface lots in downtown Pittsburgh disappeared after enactment?  (Admittedly, Pittsburgh's hill-bounded downtown was never as spread-out as Cleveland's so they probably never had as much surface parking as we do.)

 

Untitled.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 hours ago, Florida Guy said:

 

Untitled.jpg

 

The area you're showing isn't really 'downtown', look how dense the city core is. Smallman St. and the produce terminal is getting redeveloped (as well as development plans in the works for those lots on the river), and the Penguins Ownership Group has to develop that empty land where the igloo once was on a specific timeframe (of which I don't remember). The North Shore is also losing lots and building up (but still has a ways to go). I don't know what makes Pittsburgh feel much more dense than Cleveland but reasons I've come up with so far is lack of surface lots (huge), and narrower streets. 

 

Look around the city center (and neighboring shorelines) and you won't find a Jacobs Lot type situation- the city/private interest is actively developing these sites.

 

Edit: Looks like the Penguins group may have something in the mix for the area between Centre Ave and 579... https://www.wesa.fm/post/overhauled-plan-redevelop-lower-hill-promises-housing-construction-fall they've had the rights for ten years

Edited by GISguy
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Folks, I know it's hard to be patient after 30 years, but there is a light at the end of this long tunnel. Unless Sherwin Williams stumbles in paying off more of its Valspar debt or SHW sees another big company it wants to buy, look for some news by the end of this year.

  • Like 6

"Now you're not naive enough to think we're living in a democracy, are you Buddy? It's the free market. And you're a part of it." -- Gordon Gekko.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, KJP said:

Folks, I know it's hard to be patient after 30 years, but there is a light at the end of this long tunnel. Unless Sherwin Williams stumbles in paying off more of its Valspar debt or SHW sees another big company it wants to buy, look for some news by the end of this year.

 

I hope this is right, but if not I personally feel the Jacobs lot is a perfect spot for a new Justice Center, so long as it's built in the fashion that the County HQ building was--as a public/private partnership (leaving the public out of the design and construction process).  A development like this would certainly spur on some mixed-use ideas for the WHD surface lots, including lots of attorneys looking to update their surroundings to keep up with the Jones' (or judges!).  😀

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
58 minutes ago, Htsguy said:

Maybe they are just "tired" after years of trying (similar to poor Forest City and Tower City...making that mall work again just plain exhausted the company and their people) and it is time to sell for a decent profit to somebody with a fresh approach.

 

Stark's efforts over the years have been pretty visible, including the failures.  What covert efforts of FCE and Jacobs have we been missing?  You make them sound like Rocky Balboa.  When Tower City still had a McDonalds it charged about 50% more than any other McDonalds, and panhandlers would go from table to table unabated. 

 

I think it makes sense to hold out for a proposal that fits this lot's location.  Who knows why it's taking so long, but without further info we shouldn't assume the owner has been grunting and straining for decades to make something happen.  It's safe to assume they were in on the Amazon proposal.  Maybe Jacobs would rather someone else puts a deal together, maybe that's been their approach all along.  Why waste the effort when the lot is profitable as is?

Edited by 327

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

"Who knows why it's taking so long"

 

Wow. Have you looked at the BLS jobs data and the median residential and office rents data for Greater Cleveland going back to the 1990s??

  • Love 1

"Now you're not naive enough to think we're living in a democracy, are you Buddy? It's the free market. And you're a part of it." -- Gordon Gekko.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, KJP said:

"Who knows why it's taking so long"

 

Wow. Have you looked at the BLS jobs data and the median residential and office rents data for Greater Cleveland going back to the 1990s??

 

Wow.  You're certain there's no other factor involved, given how many corporate HQs have been built in the Greater Cleveland suburbs since the 1990s??

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, 327 said:

 

Wow.  You're certain there's no other factor involved, given how many corporate HQs have been built in the Greater Cleveland suburbs since the 1990s??

 

Like CEOs moving HQs close to where they live out in the sticks? If you want more downtown HQs, get CEOs to move back to the city.


"Now you're not naive enough to think we're living in a democracy, are you Buddy? It's the free market. And you're a part of it." -- Gordon Gekko.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
40 minutes ago, KJP said:

Folks, I know it's hard to be patient after 30 years, but there is a light at the end of this long tunnel. Unless Sherwin Williams stumbles in paying off more of its Valspar debt or SHW sees another big company it wants to buy, look for some news by the end of this year.

I hope you are right KJP.  You tend to be much more positive than me when it comes to development in general. 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, Htsguy said:

I hope you are right KJP.  You tend to be much more positive than me when it comes to development in general. 

 

Although I am optimistic (because I believe positive energy helps me be more productive and generally more pleasant to be around!), my comment that you're responding to wasn't my belief. It is from new information from a new source who agreed with (and probably does not know) my other primary, current source.

  • Like 2

"Now you're not naive enough to think we're living in a democracy, are you Buddy? It's the free market. And you're a part of it." -- Gordon Gekko.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, KJP said:

 

Although I am optimistic (because I believe positive energy helps me be more productive and generally more pleasant to be around!), my comment that you're responding to wasn't my belief. It is from new information from a new source who agreed with (and probably does not know) my other primary, current source.

Sorry for being crude, but is urban development blue balls a thing? Because I think that's what you're giving me right now. 😵

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Wha, you couldn't say epididymal hypertension instead?? 😄

  • Haha 2

"Now you're not naive enough to think we're living in a democracy, are you Buddy? It's the free market. And you're a part of it." -- Gordon Gekko.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 minutes ago, KJP said:

 

Like CEOs moving HQs close to where they live out in the sticks? If you want more downtown HQs, get CEOs to move back to the city.

 

That's not what happened with Progressive, for example. 

 

Don't be so quick to deploy the market purity argument.  Alternative tax schemes were just being discussed upthread.  There's plenty of evidence that the downtown Cleveland office market has been distorted over the years by a handful of misguided people and misguided policies.  Maybe it is time to change the parking tax.  Maybe it's also time to review the city's efforts at making itself liveable, time to consider new approaches.  That discussion might belong in a different thread, but it absolutely impacts the future of the Jacobs Public Square Lot.  You just said yourself that the desirability of living here is an important factor.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, KJP said:

 

Although I am optimistic (because I believe positive energy helps me be more productive and generally more pleasant to be around!), my comment that you're responding to wasn't my belief. It is from new information from a new source who agreed with (and probably does not know) my other primary, current source.

 

Any more details you can share?  😉

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, mrclifton88 said:

 

Any more details you can share?  😉

 

I'm thinking how I can turn it and other stuff I learned today into a blog...

  • Like 1

"Now you're not naive enough to think we're living in a democracy, are you Buddy? It's the free market. And you're a part of it." -- Gordon Gekko.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, 327 said:

 

That's not what happened with Progressive, for example. 

 

Don't be so quick to deploy the market purity argument.  Alternative tax schemes were just being discussed upthread.  There's plenty of evidence that the downtown Cleveland office market has been distorted over the years by a handful of misguided people and misguided policies.  Maybe it is time to change the parking tax.  Maybe it's also time to review the city's efforts at making itself liveable, time to consider new approaches.  That discussion might belong in a different thread, but it absolutely impacts the future of the Jacobs Public Square Lot.  You just said yourself that the desirability of living here is an important factor.

 

The city of Cleveland has been taking it on the chin way too long.  It's time to give the burbs a taste of their own medicine!  Be forewarned suburbia!  Just ask Connecticut / New Jersey.  Their tax base is being eaten alive by the urban renaissance, the fifth migration, the new anti-house tax policy, etc.  Where there is tax revenue, there is power.  And slowly but surely, the power is shifting back to cities.  Cleveland just happens to be one of the last guests to join the party.  Again, our region's policies and inefficiencies have significantly slowed this progression in comparison to other regions.  But I truly believe that the days of the Cleveland surface parking lot racket are numbered.  The question is, can our leaders accelerate that process?  

Edited by NYC Boomerang

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm all about boosting the city but it's not like Cleveland lives in a bubble, despite the city leadership acting like it-we rise and fall as a region. We need to grow as a region, city, suburbs, and everywhere in between. Tax breaks to move jobs throughout the county should be illegal as should other schemes to just shuffle jobs. I hope the Jacobs property being developed is a catalyst to bring more jobs here and sell our region as a whole.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


7 hours ago, G00pie said:

you are such a teast @KJP but finding out SHW is putting up a Tower would be the cherry on top of all the great news lately

ewscripps.brightspotcdn.png.b0958aac7b0e3e680475c4015f2f5508.png

If it looked even remotely like the "Amazon HQ" it would be more than a cherry....

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Landmark+Office+Towers.jpg

 

FRIDAY, MARCH 15, 2019

New Sherwin Williams HQ plans may stir by 2020

 

By the end of this year, Cleveland coatings giant Sherwin Williams (SHW) plans to issue a request for proposals (RFP) from design-build teams for a new or expanded corporate world headquarters and research facilities. That's the word from two sources in the development community.

Once SHW wrapped up legal and staffing issues in the summer of 2018 surrounding its acquisition of rival Valspar Corp., it commissioned work on drafting an RFP for the combined company's facilities. While most of the parameters in the RFP aren't known, some are. For example, the RFP will reportedly seek proposals not only for a new headquarters but also for a new research center.

 

MORE:

https://neo-trans.blogspot.com/2019/03/new-sherwin-williams-hq-plans-may-stir.html

  • Like 3

"Now you're not naive enough to think we're living in a democracy, are you Buddy? It's the free market. And you're a part of it." -- Gordon Gekko.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The timeline suggests that it could be built by 2022. But that is probably an overly optimistic scenario which assumes that SHW is going to quickly make a decision on which proposal to accept, that design/construction will proceed at the fastest rate possible with no delays, and that SHW debt-to-equity ratio continues to improve at current rates with no hiccups. Ultimately SHW is not going to be able to put meaningful funding toward this project until it can redirect funding away from retiring debt. An exception is if it sells Landmark and Breen (staying in both on a short-term lease) and uses the sale proceeds to pay the acquisition fees on the new facility leases or to make a down payment on a mortgage for the new facilities.


"Now you're not naive enough to think we're living in a democracy, are you Buddy? It's the free market. And you're a part of it." -- Gordon Gekko.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ken, great write up.....Any word on SW expanding the R&D center in Warrensville Hts?  Its an enormous campus that is screaming for renovations.   

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks. I've heard nothing. 

 

EDIT: I wouldn't expect any major changes or improvements to SHW's Automotive Finishes HQ and plant for a few years, for the same reasons as there is no visible action on the HQ/R&D facilities. It will be interesting to see if SHW consolidates the Technology Center with the automotive R&D and the main HQ with the automotive HQ or if SHW keeps each of these separate.

Edited by KJP

"Now you're not naive enough to think we're living in a democracy, are you Buddy? It's the free market. And you're a part of it." -- Gordon Gekko.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

1 million square feet for a potential new SHW headquarters, according to KJP’s blog.  By comparison,  The Terminal Tower has 577,000 square feet, 200 Public Square has 1.2 million feet of office space and the Key Tower Itself about 1.25 million. The perfect new neighbor on the block...hopefully...

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, KJP said:

... optimistic scenario which assumes that ... SHW debt-to-equity ratio continues to improve at current rates with no hiccups.

 

It appears to me they want to cut the debt - but not too much. SHW just announced a pretty hefty cash-dissipating dividend increase of 31%. I think they are looking to nail down cheap long-term debt, while paying off the high cost short stuff.  Being too asset-rich can attract activist thieves investors who want to strip the assets and pay the proceeds to themselves. Owing cheap long-term money on an illiquid office building in Cleveland might suit their purposes nicely.

 

Just speculating ...

  • Like 2
  • Thanks 1

There's nothing wrong with optimism, as long as you don't get your hopes up.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, CleveFan said:

1 million square feet for a potential new SHW headquarters, according to KJP’s blog.  By comparison,  The Terminal Tower has 577,000 square feet, 200 Public Square has 1.2 million feet of office space and the Key Tower Itself about 1.25 million. The perfect new neighbor on the block...hopefully...

 

So the requirements for this thing would be too large for the Thunderbird project on Scranton then? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't think anything is too big for a huge blank slate like that.


"Now you're not naive enough to think we're living in a democracy, are you Buddy? It's the free market. And you're a part of it." -- Gordon Gekko.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
31 minutes ago, KJP said:

I don't think anything is too big for a huge blank slate like that.

Could the Scranton Peninsula accommodate thousands of employees commuting in/out each morning and evening through the limited routes in and out each work day from such a facility?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, simplythis said:

KJP:  Any chance WHATSOEVER that this tower be taller than Key bank?

 

Doubtful. I don't expect this to be much larger than the 2016 plan which was 900,000 sf. I'm told the new version will be about 1 million sf and the source specifically heard 40 stories. But some incomplete information suggests the RFP will include an option for expanding the existing building and partially vacating the old. We shall see.

 

11 hours ago, CleCaneFan said:

Could the Scranton Peninsula accommodate thousands of employees commuting in/out each morning and evening through the limited routes in and out each work day from such a facility?

 

It would be much easier if the Eagle Road ramp was restored. 

 


"Now you're not naive enough to think we're living in a democracy, are you Buddy? It's the free market. And you're a part of it." -- Gordon Gekko.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If this building ever comes to be, given its prominent location, I would be more concerned with its street level design rather than its height. Of course I have never been a height junkie like many on the board.

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thing is, depending on the winning proposal, SHW may not end up on the Jacobs lot.

 

But I agree with you....another tall tower like Key that's dead at street level would be a partial win.


"Now you're not naive enough to think we're living in a democracy, are you Buddy? It's the free market. And you're a part of it." -- Gordon Gekko.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, Htsguy said:

If this building ever comes to be, given its prominent location, I would be more concerned with its street level design rather than its height. Of course I have never been a height junkie like many on the board.

Your name states otherwise lol

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm curious about the Jacobs lot being offered up to Amazon if SW has in fact been planning for as long as suggested.  KJP, any info?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

They stopped planning for it in 2016. Now, it appears that any site within 1 mile of SHW's Canal Road founding will be on the table. 


"Now you're not naive enough to think we're living in a democracy, are you Buddy? It's the free market. And you're a part of it." -- Gordon Gekko.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

where does the need for space come from? do they do a big hiring and expansion thing? move existing tc offices to public square? or move in minneapolis valspar offices? any guesses?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Restore formatting

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...