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KJP

Cleveland: Downtown: Sherwin-Williams Headquarters

RISK OF CLOSURE

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Do you think Frankfort will remain open or be closed and integrated into a continuous campus across the Weston parcels?

 

I suspect a skybridge and/or tunnel across W. 3rd.

Edited by Frmr CLEder
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To add on to the reasoning for a survey, any sort of development site, big or small is going to need a survey for everyone to use as a baseline for design, and a project this big is going to need quite a detailed one. The elevations across the property are only a minor part of a survey. (And for what it's worth, an 8' difference in grade across the properties is no where near a flat site. What may seem flat to the common eye,  can be an engineers grading nightmare.) The survey will most likely include all the underground utilities, which considering this is in the heart of downtown is going to be a huge amount and extremely time consuming to sort out, and any easements, rights-of-way, property boundaries on the existing parcels.

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56 minutes ago, GISguy said:

It makes a lot more sense when you're looking at a spot with more elevation change such as a hill, but it shows the general grade of the lot and where it flows. I'll see if I can label these and send something that makes a bit more sense. Usually contours are at like 5' and 10' increments, these are at 2'. Perhaps 1' may help a bit more too. 

 

I'll get something over, if not today this weekend, not that it really will show much other than how flat Cleveland is lol

image.thumb.png.c4dcba5b1ee638c4d78019f782cf7e8b.png

 

As promised ( @Frmr CLEder) the numbers represent the elevation. These contours are from 2006 and are paired up with Spring 2019 imagery so some things have obviously changed. 

 

Technology has also obviously changed a lot in 13 years, and with that, the newer LiDAR/contours will be of much higher quality (same with a site survey, obviously), but alas, this gives a general idea of the site.

Edited by GISguy
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32 minutes ago, Frmr CLEder said:

Do you think Frankfort will remain open or be closed and integrated into a continuous campus across the Weston parcels?

 

I suspect a skybridge and/or tunnel across W. 3rd.

 

Depends on if SHW wants to have any public, street-level uses in its development. The last two plans (Stark's Pesht and Weston/Citymark's Superblock) had lots of supportive, street-level, public uses so it needed more access points that come with having more street fronts. Perhaps SHW wants as much of an uninterrupted canvas on which to design and build its HQ+R&D? Or perhaps they picture Frankfort to be part of that canvas opportunity rather than a hindrance or barrier? CEO John Morikis reportedly likes Goodyear's HQ. If so, don't expect much in the way of street-level public uses. The Goodyear campus is self-contained like Cleveland Clinic's with no interaction with the sidewalks. I hope that the architects can show Morikis and the rest of the C-Suite how a pedestrian-porous facade can create active sidewalks and make the setting look dynamic. I urge the architects to show SHW's C-Suite execs Amazon's South Lake Union campus, as an example.

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"Most of us have been conditioned to regard military combat as exciting and glamorous -- an opportunity for men to prove their competence and courage. Since armies are legal, we feel that war is acceptable; in general, nobody feels that that war is criminal or that accepting it is a criminal attitude. In fact, we have been brainwashed. War is neither glamorous nor attractive. It is monstrous. Its very nature is one of tragedy and suffering" --Dalai Lama

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9 minutes ago, KJP said:

 

Depends on if SHW wants to have any public, street-level uses in its development. The last two plans (Stark's Pesht and Weston/Citymark's Superblock) had lots of supportive, street-level, public uses so it needed more access points that come with having more street fronts. Perhaps SHW wants as much of an uninterrupted canvas on which to design and build its HQ+R&D? Or perhaps they picture Frankfort to be part of that canvas opportunity rather than a hindrance or barrier? CEO John Morikis reportedly likes Goodyear's HQ. If so, don't expect much in the way of street-level public uses. The Goodyear campus is self-contained like Cleveland Clinic's with no interaction with the sidewalks. I hope that the architects can show Morikis and the rest of the C-Suite how a pedestrian-porous facade can create active sidewalks and make the setting look dynamic. I urge the architects to show SHW's C-Suite execs Amazon's South Lake Union campus, as an example.

Not quite the same size as Frankfort, but a good sign to the development, Broome Court was vacated as of 11/21.

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10 minutes ago, KJP said:

 

I'll be damned! That's going beyond due diligence. They aren't looking for fatal flaws anymore. That very small move is a VERY telling move.

 

Broome Court was vacated back in 2017.

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4 minutes ago, TPH2 said:

 

Broome Court was vacated back in 2017.

 

Well, the plat just came across the other day, so maybe it just didn't flow through all official channels in 2017?

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Doesn't look like it was vacated. Still shows up on tax maps as a public right of way....

Weston Broome Ct.JPG


"Most of us have been conditioned to regard military combat as exciting and glamorous -- an opportunity for men to prove their competence and courage. Since armies are legal, we feel that war is acceptable; in general, nobody feels that that war is criminal or that accepting it is a criminal attitude. In fact, we have been brainwashed. War is neither glamorous nor attractive. It is monstrous. Its very nature is one of tragedy and suffering" --Dalai Lama

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11 minutes ago, GISguy said:

Well, the plat just came across the other day, so maybe it just didn't flow through all official channels in 2017?

 

Hmm. According to Cleveland City Council's webpage, the vacation passed on Emergency on 6/5/2017. But yeah, I just noticed it still shows up as right-of-way on the county auditor site. 

https://cityofcleveland.legistar.com/LegislationDetail.aspx?ID=3035633&GUID=00AE7EB4-E0BA-4707-90B4-49970C036C0E&Options=ID|Text|&Search=Broome+Court

pic.JPG

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2 hours ago, GISguy said:

image.thumb.png.c4dcba5b1ee638c4d78019f782cf7e8b.png

 

As promised ( @Frmr CLEder) the numbers represent the elevation. These contours are from 2006 and are paired up with Spring 2019 imagery so some things have obviously changed. 

 

Technology has also obviously changed a lot in 13 years, and with that, the newer LiDAR/contours will be of much higher quality (same with a site survey, obviously), but alas, this gives a general idea of the site.


I’d be curious to know how accurate it would be. I know we’ve had issues in wooded areas...I assume tall buildings would do the same?

 

I almost failed my surveying class in college though, so 🤷🏻‍♂️

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2 minutes ago, Enginerd said:


I’d be curious to know how accurate it would be. I know we’ve had issues in wooded areas...I assume tall buildings would do the same?

 

I almost failed my surveying class in college though, so 🤷🏻‍♂️

 

lol keep in mind it's 2006, and this is 2' accuracy (at most), for reference what's currently being flown is QL0 (accuracy of 5cm), so needless to say the newer stuff will provide a lot of details that aren't really apparent here (like where puddles will form in the parking lot for instance). This is also aerial vs ground based collection and the aerial survey will penetrate trees and foliage (and actually would be helpful when trying to determine what type of vegetation is there). I was talking this over with my coworker, and we were thinking that maybe they extrapolate what's by the buildings from the surrounding area (granted it still doesn't explain the strange anomaly in the lower right corner).

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7 minutes ago, GISguy said:

 

lol keep in mind it's 2006, and this is 2' accuracy (at most), for reference what's currently being flown is QL0 (accuracy of 5cm), so needless to say the newer stuff will provide a lot of details that aren't really apparent here (like where puddles will form in the parking lot for instance). This is also aerial vs ground based collection and the aerial survey will penetrate trees and foliage (and actually would be helpful when trying to determine what type of vegetation is there). I was talking this over with my coworker, and we were thinking that maybe they extrapolate what's by the buildings from the surrounding area (granted it still doesn't explain the strange anomaly in the lower right corner).


This is why us construction guys have folks like you to rely on 🤣

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jacobsproposal-s.jpg

 

Sunday, November 24, 2019

Sherwin-Williams' HQ on Public Square? Yes. A supertall? Don't count on it.

 

Public Square is a fascinating mix of old and new, small and tall buildings.

It's oldest building is also the oldest still standing in downtown Cleveland -- the Old Stone Church. It dates from 1855 although its Presbyterian congregation goes back to 1820 when locals still thought of themselves and their land as a part of Connecticut. The church's interior has the appearance of an unpretentious New England town hall.

 

MORE:

https://neo-trans.blogspot.com/2019/11/sherwin-williams-hq-on-public-square.html?m=1

 

Edited by KJP
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"Most of us have been conditioned to regard military combat as exciting and glamorous -- an opportunity for men to prove their competence and courage. Since armies are legal, we feel that war is acceptable; in general, nobody feels that that war is criminal or that accepting it is a criminal attitude. In fact, we have been brainwashed. War is neither glamorous nor attractive. It is monstrous. Its very nature is one of tragedy and suffering" --Dalai Lama

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Thanks KJP- once again, great detective work and analysis.  Well, we’ve gone from images of the mighty Amazon project to a 40 story maximum - but still we were thinking easily 600’- to now a maximum of 30 stories and “other buildings”.  I have to admit I was really hoping for a 4th tower on PS that was iconic and that would have required something proportional to the Big 3.  Sure, it’ll be fantastic to fill in “the missing tooth” - and this is still a mighty win for the city- but I think many of us were ready to paint the sky. 

Edited by CleveFan
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Groundwater removal is less important for the digging of caissons to bedrock 200 feet below the surface than it is for constructing a concrete mat foundation. Caissons are typically dug for towers rising above 400 feet. Mat foundations, or "floating mats," are for shorter towers.

And that sounds like what SHW is doing here. It sounds like they are testing and preparing the 1.17-acre Jacobs lot on Public Square for a mat foundation.

Well hopefully you get a great outstanding design and some other buildings to fill in and with good street interaction and maybe some mixed uses? The most important thing is that the HQ stays IN OHIO and does not go to a sunbelt city, and that it is located in an important area of your downtown. Those things are the most important and apparently are looking good! 

 

 

400 feet with a good design with some somewhat smaller buildings around it could still really "fill in" the skyline, and (JMHO)you already have a really great tallest tower already-everything should go towards supporting that(when it comes to skyline views)and filling in the gaps/making connections.  Your two tallest are classics and you really dodged a bullet with that 1.200 foot thing(again JMHO). 

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5 minutes ago, B767PILOT said:

The Weston Superblock vision and a 35 storey tower on PS would suit me fine. 

Same... I'm hoping they saw that plan and got inspired. Knowing they liked Goodyear's HQ design, I think the Weston plan fits that criteria fairly well. 

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I don't mind the lack of a huge tower.  Of course I'd love one, but I'm just happy to see those lots filled.  

 

One other benefit to smaller buildings over a supertall -- they will likely get built faster, meaning more employees and economic impact downtown on a faster timeframe.

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1 minute ago, ASPhotoman said:

Same... I'm hoping they saw that plan and got inspired. Knowing they liked Goodyear's HQ design, I think the Weston plan fits that criteria fairly well. 

And heres hoping it interacts with its surroundings. The term "campus" conjures up visions of a walked-in, self-contained prison

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2 minutes ago, cle_guy90 said:

Honestly I just want some descent presence in the skyline. If it is below 400ft I will be disappointed. If it is 5-600ft I’ll be thrilled!

Building anything on Public Square; especially the Weston lot, should be be required to have a presence in the skyline (even from a distance). Building anything less than that will screw up our skyline for sure. I'd rather have nothing built there than have a building that sticks out like a sore thumb because it doesn't match the height of the three other buildings. 

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10 minutes ago, jbee1982 said:

Building anything on Public Square; especially the Weston lot, should be be required to have a presence in the skyline (even from a distance). Building anything less than that will screw up our skyline for sure. I'd rather have nothing built there than have a building that sticks out like a sore thumb because it doesn't match the height of the three other buildings. 

 

There are plenty of buildings on Public Square that aren't skyscrapers that don't think stick out like a sore thumb.  I also think that filling in the skyline with a bunch of medium sized buildings (not to mention the gaping hole in downtown at street level) is better than sitting around forever for a huge skyscraper that probably will never be built.

 

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20 minutes ago, jbee1982 said:

Building anything on Public Square; especially the Weston lot, should be be required to have a presence in the skyline (even from a distance). Building anything less than that will screw up our skyline for sure. I'd rather have nothing built there than have a building that sticks out like a sore thumb because it doesn't match the height of the three other buildings. 

 Just to have?

 

 Say such a requirement is put into play, that would then limit the number of companies that could build a building with only one tenant.  Lets look at the single family example again.  You're building your own home, you've designed a home that you can afford to build and maintain.  You put forth a design that is for 2 bedroom and 2.5 bathrooms.  You are then told you need to build a three storey, three bed, three bath design, but you know you cannot afford to construct that nor maintain the structure once built.  Would you walk away or build a house you know you cannot afford or maintain?

 

Why should someone build something they cannot operate effectively, fully occupy nor financially maintain?  For example, if SW is required to build a 60 storey building, but they only need a 43 story building.  Who rents the other 17 floors?  How does that affect the design/construction of the building?  Who pays for empty floors? Will they be able to get ONE tenant or will they need to rent to multiple, which is more costly.  There are so many variable.  They could build something mixed use with hotel or residential incorporated.  But at what costs?

Edited by MyTwoSense
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45 minutes ago, jbee1982 said:

Building anything on Public Square; especially the Weston lot, should be be required to have a presence in the skyline (even from a distance). Building anything less than that will screw up our skyline for sure. I'd rather have nothing built there than have a building that sticks out like a sore thumb because it doesn't match the height of the three other buildings. 

 

There's no mechanism to "require" anything of the sort, so it's a moot point.

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I'm sure we will all be happy to see a new Sherwin-Williams HQ downtown, regardless of the size.  And we will also be happy to see those surface parking lots developed.  Personally, I was hoping for something tall - the downtown skyline would obviously look much nicer with another tall tower.  This seemed to be a golden opportunity to make that happen.  I don't know when or if there will be another opportunity.  

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It's very strange how a 30ish-story tower is viewed around here as if it was some token award/lovely parting gift/participation trophy or even with disdain. This city has had only five 20+ story buildings built downtown since the early 1990s.

 

If someone is offering 2,500 new, well-paying jobs downtown, build a sh!tload of 5- to 10-story buildings for all I care.

Edited by KJP
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"Most of us have been conditioned to regard military combat as exciting and glamorous -- an opportunity for men to prove their competence and courage. Since armies are legal, we feel that war is acceptable; in general, nobody feels that that war is criminal or that accepting it is a criminal attitude. In fact, we have been brainwashed. War is neither glamorous nor attractive. It is monstrous. Its very nature is one of tragedy and suffering" --Dalai Lama

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3 hours ago, Chazz Michael Michaels said:

image.png.c39b27fc8e9d1c1dc2c45d2fad9e879b.png

 

Hess Tower Houston - 29 Stories

 

image.png.2fe5e8710886b990c5f24d6f3222135e.png

 

Pinnacle Nashville - 29 Stories

 

Something around 30 stories wouldn't be a complete loss

Nice buildings that illustrate how two buildings of the same floor count can be quite different in height. The Hess Tower is 490’ and the Pinnacle is 417- quite a difference even in how that would compare in the Cleveland skyline. 

 I went back through this thread to the beginning, around 2007 when it was not yet specifically a SHW discussion - just to get some perspective. Many of the conversations back then sound exactly like those of today - the desire for a “4th tall tower”, arguments about height vs. density and complaints about the empty Weston lots.  I’d like an iconic tower as much as anyone but the look back reminded me that it’s probably a good idea not to assume anything at all until the deal is really done and renderings are revealed. The difference from 2008 is that this time we have a dynamic Fortune 500 company in play, bringing a “tall” human presence.  I’m not going to complain if there’s no significant tower - I think this time the Jacob/Weston lots get built up with a world class presence and it’s all good. 

Edited by CleveFan
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One guy had heard from an "insider" that Sherwin-Williams was proposing a 75-stories tall skyscraper while attending his child's sporting event. The idea of such a monstrosity was absolutely tantalizing for about 5 minutes... 

 

Somehow, I knew that such a tower just wasn't in the card's for our beloved metropolis.

 

Still, like other's on here, I am hopeful and optimistic for at least something at 40-stories or slightly greater.

 

Edited by John D. Baumgardner
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1 minute ago, marty15 said:

The most iconic building in Nashville’s skyline is the 33 story AT&T building.

906E3E6F-2FA5-4B23-A5D4-7280FA811D4D.jpeg

Good point...seriously in that who says that the 30 story building will have to have a flat roof?  

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3 hours ago, marty15 said:

The benefit of a 30ish story tower Is Public Square will be in the sunshine longer in the afternoon.

 

Hardly worth the benefit you get in lieu of a more impressive, noteworthy 90-story tower. If you want sunshine, go to a farm in Medina County.

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Per Gilbane’s website, The 34 story Lumen is 602,000 sq feet. We have heard SW needs 1.8 million sq feet, not counting parking. Does this mean they will construct 3 buildings the size of The Lumen?

 

Edited by Silent Matt
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Possibly, not ruling it out, but R&D developments can be tricky in a downtown setting. Fumehoods and proper ventilation techniques are needed for chemical labs, and classroom/computer labs are needed as well, so lots of wiring, ventilation, and plenty of firewalls. Its doable for University since not much space is being used, but if we're talking multi use complexes with high numbers of stories, that's the challenge and potentially the shortfall for the R&D component. So I'm not expecting it to be as tall or even comparable to the corporate side, but at the same time there will be other components that will be comparable, just as big, or bigger in Sq Ft.

 

Stay tuned!

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