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Cleveland: Downtown: Sherwin-Williams Headquarters

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i was wondering how much tower $272M gets you and looked around --- for comparison: 

 

in 2014 the teachers pension fund paid $274M for 55 2nd st, a nice 25 story building built in 2002 in downtown sf. its been resold and bought since then.

 

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someone paid $272M for the ground lease of the lipstick building in midtown manhattan in 2017.

 

somebody sold three houston office buildings, including a 27 story bldg with ernest and young, for $272M in 2017.

 

$272M was a pricetag on an allentown arena block, with an office building, hotel and arena in 2014. i think its now the ppl center:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PPL_Center

 

the big minnesota capital reno project in st paul was $272M in 2015 and included a new senate office building and parking garage.

 

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^^ Construction costs in NYC and SF are going to be wayyy higher also than anyplace in Cleveland-I bet you will get much more for your money.

 

*Now my quarantined bored %%s is going to go searching for buildings between 550-650 feet and with 500,000 to 1 million square feet of space costing between 250-300 million lol.

 

This proposal has a nice height and has a nice design/massing:

 

https://skyscraperpage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=241069

Edited by Toddguy
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^ yep, but those examples were not of construction in ny or sf. the only construction was st paul and allentown. i was just generally wondering what that amount gets you. looks like even with inflation it could be a lot for one tower if that is what that estimate means.

 

please do keep poking around i ran out of gas lol.

Edited by mrnyc

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8 minutes ago, mrnyc said:

^ yep, but those examples were not of construction in ny or sf. the only construction was st paul and allentown. i was just generally wondering what that amount gets you. looks like even with inflation it could be a lot for one tower if that is what that estimate means.

 

please do keep poking around i ran out of gas lol.

While this is residential, the height is good(with maybe one more tier)and it looks kind of like a collection of paint cans a bit..

*actually it would be about right with over 500,000 square feet of office with 200 apartments

https://skyscraperpage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=241605

 

I like the outdoor terraces and the great possibilities for exterior lighting displays with the tiers and all.

I think it needs a bit more top taper.

Edited by Toddguy
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^ yeow -- alright -- that looks pretty classy to me. good for boston.

 

 

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Edited by mrnyc
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7 minutes ago, mrnyc said:

^ yeow -- alright -- that looks pretty classy to me. good for boston.

 

 

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I really like it too. Cleveland should try and steal it! lol.  Hopefully it will at least be something that is like this- literally out of the box.

Edited by Toddguy
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17 minutes ago, Toddguy said:

While this is residential, the height is good(with maybe one more tier)and it looks kind of like a collection of paint cans a bit..

*actually it would be about right with over 500,000 square feet of office with 200 apartments

https://skyscraperpage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=241605

 

I like the outdoor terraces and the great possibilities for exterior lighting displays with the tiers and all.

I think it needs a bit more top taper.

That's pretty cool, but it's going to cost $1.3 billion to build.

 

https://www.bldup.com/projects/boston-harbor-garage

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This popped up on my Instagram feed the other day, and I immediately thought of the SW HQ. The design would be a nice change from what we usually see in Cleveland. Obviously, it would be nice to see it 35+ stories. 

IMG_1068.jpg

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3 minutes ago, LlamaLawyer said:

That's pretty cool, but it's going to cost $1.3 billion to build.

 

https://www.bldup.com/projects/boston-harbor-garage

Well that does not mean that something "similar" could not be built in Cleveland for less, right? 

 

*yeah 1.3 billion is a bit much! Yikes!

 

A design "like" that would really stand out and hold it's own.

Edited by Toddguy

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23 minutes ago, ASPhotoman said:

This popped up on my Instagram feed the other day, and I immediately thought of the SW HQ. The design would be a nice change from what we usually see in Cleveland. Obviously, it would be nice to see it 35+ stories. 

IMG_1068.jpg

 

 

yeah, this is a new som office building on bway in midtown. nice, modern office style with lots of terraces. 23 stories and looks likes its going up on spec. its about half built so far. i cant find anything about costs, but a local and a foreign developer group went in on it together. i notice that big terraces are a hugely popular amenity on new construction these days.

 

 

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I would hope that if it does not get an actual spire then it at least has a nicely tiered top. A flattop building will not look as good or blend in as well in that particular location IMO.

I really like that one I posted from Boston...but yeah 1.3 billion....uh....

 

*still looking around for more examples*

Edited by Toddguy

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Look at PNC’s new building in Pittsburgh. It’s about 800k sq ft but cost about $400m in 2015. My expectations for a building costing $270m aren't too high.

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8 minutes ago, Metz44 said:

Look at PNC’s new building in Pittsburgh. It’s about 800k sq ft but cost about $400m in 2015. My expectations for a building costing $270m aren't too high.

 

The construction prices vary so much building to building. There are plenty of examples that are more money for less space, but there are plenty of examples that are within the SHW price range too. Here's one that's fairly close to the SHW space needs and was only $200 million building cost, with parking in the base. https://www.martinmartin.com/project/1144-fifteenth/

 

Also, a lot of these numbers we are throwing around may be project cost, not building cost. The SHW HQ project cost is $360 million, which is pretty close to the PNC figure anyway.

Edited by LlamaLawyer
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13 minutes ago, Toddguy said:

I would hope that if it does not get an actual spire then it at least has a nicely tiered top. A flattop building will not look as good or blend in as well in that particular location IMO.

I really like that one I posted from Boston...but yeah 1.3 billion....uh....

 

*still looking around for more examples*

 

 

 

yeah, that bway bldg example would be better for something off from the square, or like for starks nucleus office building. but anyway the terraces are the main takeway. 

 

a signature office tower on public square needs more on the flash or sleek side than on the low key cool side. som can do dynamic, look at their buenos aires project, but that is not really their calling card. also, see disney hudson square for new more typical som.

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6 minutes ago, LlamaLawyer said:

 

The construction prices vary so much building to building. There are plenty of examples that are more money for less space, but there are plenty of examples that are within the SHW price range too. Here's one that's fairly close to the SHW space needs and was only $200 million building cost, with parking in the base. https://www.martinmartin.com/project/1144-fifteenth/

 

Also, a lot of these numbers we are throwing around may be project cost, not building cost. The SHW HQ project cost is $360 million, which is pretty close to the PNC figure anyway.

I agree although I doubt that building in Denver received over $100m in grants and even more in low interest financing from the local gov. For the amount taxpayers have invested, I don’t want a building looking like that on public square.

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10 minutes ago, mrnyc said:

 

 

 

yeah, that bway bldg example would be better for something off from the square, or like for starks nucleus office building. but anyway the terraces are the main takeway. 

 

a signature office tower on public square needs more on the flash or sleek side than on the low key cool side. som can do dynamic, look at their buenos aires project, but that is not really their calling card. also, see disney hudson square for new more typical som.

I was looking at that block 185 project in Austin. Right height and size with a radical design(maybe too squat for this site and I don't know the cost)but the outside the box thinking on it is good. Maybe something like that but sleeker. And it does have the outdoor terraces and is a great design(Pelli and I bet it is costing a lot.)  That kind of design is very standout and it could hold it's own against taller competition.

Edited by Toddguy

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33 minutes ago, Toddguy said:

I would hope that if it does not get an actual spire then it at least has a nicely tiered top. A flattop building will not look as good or blend in as well in that particular location IMO.

I really like that one I posted from Boston...but yeah 1.3 billion....uh....

 

*still looking around for more examples*

Seattle has had a bunch in the past decade that are about on this scale (thanks, Amazon), if you're looking for comparisons.

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1 minute ago, LlamaLawyer said:

Seattle has had a bunch in the past decade that are about on this scale (thanks, Amazon), if you're looking for comparisons.

Yeah but they are pretty much just glass boxes, right? I am looking for something a bit different.

 

Which ones are not just boxes? Any of them?

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6 minutes ago, Toddguy said:

Yeah but they are pretty much just glass boxes, right? I am looking for something a bit different.

 

Which ones are not just boxes? Any of them?

 

To be fair, most buildings are essentially boxes. 

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3 minutes ago, LlamaLawyer said:

 

To be fair, most buildings are essentially boxes. 

True enough. Most everything in this height and square footage range is either a box, something that is not a box but is ugly as sin(jenga, that "spiral" crap, pointless unsightly angularity, etc) , or wayyy too expensive. 

 

 

Just have to hope the SW people pull a rabbit out of the hat or something(or put more $$$ into the signature building equation.)

 

Ohio does not need another tall ugly building-the Rhodes Tower here in CBUS is enough for the state for all time.

Edited by Toddguy
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1 hour ago, Metz44 said:

Look at PNC’s new building in Pittsburgh. It’s about 800k sq ft but cost about $400m in 2015. My expectations for a building costing $270m aren't too high.

 

Construction costs were 300M...The $400M figure was the overall project total..

Edited by Clefan98

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This is devolving into pointless speculation- there's really no use in posting every building that may or may not be comparable to what S-W may or may not build.  Can we hold off till we have some more actual news?

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3 hours ago, Clefan98 said:

 

Construction costs were 300M...The $400M figure was the overall project total..

Ok? Add 30 million for inflation and remember that building received no subsidies. If my representatives are gonna hand them a $100 million dollar check, you best believe i'm gonna sit here and judge a building with $270m in construction costs (Although not including Brecksville). All I'm saying is SHW better pull through and build a HQ that Cleveland deserves since we invested so much into them.

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2 hours ago, Frmr CLEder said:

Wasn't the Hilton downtown $272M?

 

Less. And the following included the $10 million pedestrian tunnel under Lakeside Avenue to the Huntington Garage......

 

"But in the final reconciling, the actual costs to design, build and outfit the hotel, including construction of the unexpected tunnel, came to $240,610,443, or $30,253,859 less than an earlier "final" estimate and well below the projected $310 million."

https://www.crainscleveland.com/government/downtown-hilton-comes-way-under-budget

 

EDIT: I would expect that a hotel would cost more per square feet than an office building considering the many rooms and individual bathrooms and other amenities. I'm told that a trophy-class office building costs about $300 per square foot to build in Cleveland. The Cleveland Hilton cost $230 million and the building measures 642,000 square feet. That's $358 per square foot -- in 2015 -- or $393 today.

 

Sherwin-Williams should be able to build a very nice office tower of about 40 stories for $270 million or so.

Edited by KJP
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"Nearly every problem that we have in the USA -- unaffordable health care, prison overpopulation, hyper militarization, climate change, racism, gun violence, poverty, poor education, urban sprawl and others -- cannot be positively addressed because bribery and conflicts of interest are legal under campaign finance laws which protect the uber-wealthy and the narrow self-interests who grossly benefit from our afflictions."

 

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Maybe I'm missing something but isn't this construction figure of $272M for the entire headquarters and not just the tower on the Jacobs lot? If that figure includes construction on the super block I think expectations should be lowered... dramatically. Hopefully just the Jacob lot and I'm over thinking this.

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5 minutes ago, Clvlndr in LV said:

Maybe I'm missing something but isn't this construction figure of $272M for the entire headquarters and not just the tower on the Jacobs lot? If that figure includes construction on the super block I think expectations should be lowered... dramatically. Hopefully just the Jacob lot and I'm over thinking this.

 

We haven't heard officially how the 1 million square feet of HQ will be distributed among the nearly 8 acres of land, divided between the former Jacobs and Weston lots. I have been told by two very good sources that the HQ will be a tall tower on Public Square as opposed to a building less than 30 stories. One of the sources said it would probably rival 200 Public Square. We should all wait and see what the official proposal will be, but nothing changes my opinion about the design/form as long as the jobs stay here and we add more jobs from other locations like Hinckley Parkway or Minneapolis. That part hasn't yet been announced -- which one reason why the entire 8 acres won't be developed right away. The other reason is that SHW is likely to leave some of its newly acquire property undeveloped to allow for future expansion.

 

And the $272 million doesn't include the $28 million parking deck for about 900-1000 cars. This is what a pair of five-level decks of about 500 spaces each would look like on the Superblock. Of course, it could also be one of these, built to a 10-level garage with about 1,000 spaces.

 

 

SHW HQ site parking1s.jpg

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"Nearly every problem that we have in the USA -- unaffordable health care, prison overpopulation, hyper militarization, climate change, racism, gun violence, poverty, poor education, urban sprawl and others -- cannot be positively addressed because bribery and conflicts of interest are legal under campaign finance laws which protect the uber-wealthy and the narrow self-interests who grossly benefit from our afflictions."

 

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I live in Los Angeles near the completed  EPIC Hollywood. I believe it is a great example of seamless integration SHW could strive to be  EPIC is a 13-story building that features roughly 300,000 square feet of office space, structured parking, as well as 18,400 square feet of ground-floor retail space. Gensler designed the vertically stacked tower, which features multiple terraces that provide 27,000 square feet of usable outdoor space.  The terrace stacked back of EPIC faces  the residential side of my neighborhood that makes a nice transition to shorter neighborhood structures. This could work well on keeping the scale of SHW's programmable needs from overwhelming the historic fabric of their surroundings and how a parking structure can be successfully hidden. 

 

Screen Shot 2020-05-15 at 12.59.23 AM.png

Screen Shot 2020-05-15 at 12.57.54 AM.png

 

Screen Shot 2020-05-15 at 12.57.27 AM.png

epic7.jpg

Edited by dave2017
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17 hours ago, X said:

This is devolving into pointless speculation- there's really no use in posting every building that may or may not be comparable to what S-W may or may not build.  Can we hold off till we have some more actual news?

 

Dude, I just posted this.

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1 hour ago, X said:

 

Dude, I just posted this.

But it's hard to follow and all when there are no other tall buildings coming like this in Ohio to speculate about lol. 

 

But we hear ya.  

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30 minutes ago, ASP1984 said:

In other news, I heard that Sherwin Williams is likely to construct a square shaped building.

 

Probably.  It would make sense to me, given financial uncertanties even with SWP's good performance to date, to maximize the use of the Jacobs lot and delay development of the Weston lots, even if this means a bigger building than they had planned for the Jacobs lot.


There's nothing wrong with optimism, as long as you don't get your hopes up.

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4 hours ago, mtnbikefan said:

 

Saw some budget talk - $357M for HQ and $322M for R&D

So the $357 million is specifically for the Jacob's lot?  Would the $322 million be spread out amongst Weston and Brecksville?  No doubt this is all preliminary numbers in the tweet, but just curious how those figures pan out over the multiple areas of investment they are making in Cuyahoga County.  

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19 minutes ago, MissinOhio said:

So the $357 million is specifically for the Jacob's lot?  Would the $322 million be spread out amongst Weston and Brecksville?  No doubt this is all preliminary numbers in the tweet, but just curious how those figures pan out over the multiple areas of investment they are making in Cuyahoga County.  

 

No, the $357 includes the superblock and Jacob's lot.

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I don't think we know for certain what's going to be built where. There's always a possibility that a 10-level parking garage could be built on the Jacobs Lot with a 40-story tower above it. I doubt that will be the case, however. I expect SHW to put the parking deck on part of the Weston lots and *possibly* some offices there too, leaving much of it undeveloped for future additions. The early massing and a  is all I have to go on at this point.

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"Nearly every problem that we have in the USA -- unaffordable health care, prison overpopulation, hyper militarization, climate change, racism, gun violence, poverty, poor education, urban sprawl and others -- cannot be positively addressed because bribery and conflicts of interest are legal under campaign finance laws which protect the uber-wealthy and the narrow self-interests who grossly benefit from our afflictions."

 

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9 hours ago, KJP said:

I don't think we know for certain what's going to be built where. There's always a possibility that a 10-level parking garage could be built on the Jacobs Lot with a 40-story tower above it. I doubt that will be the case, however. I expect SHW to put the parking deck on part of the Weston lots and *possibly* some offices there too, leaving much of it undeveloped for future additions. The early massing and a  is all I have to go on at this point.

@KJP, just to clarify - I'm hopeful that your two sources are right about the HQ tower rivaling 200 Public Square  because I think most of us would like to see a 4th skyscraper on Public Square to forever join the "Big 3"  However, your recent article that mapped out number of stories based on floor plate size assumed 1,000,000 square feet of office space all in the main tower, correct?   

Spoiler

 

 

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On 5/9/2020 at 7:36 PM, KJP said:

 

Are there any eyes on the ground? Did any additional equipment arrive or did any drilling happen?

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8 hours ago, CleveFan said:

@KJP, just to clarify - I'm hopeful that your two sources are right about the HQ tower rivaling 200 Public Square  because I think most of us would like to see a 4th skyscraper on Public Square to forever join the "Big 3"  However, your recent article that mapped out number of stories based on floor plate size assumed 1,000,000 square feet of office space all in the main tower, correct?   

  Hide contents

 

 

 

No I used floor plate sizes of recent and proposed buildings to estimate the headquarters' height based on the 1 million square foot figure. If SHW's tower has average floorplates of 25,000 SF, it can put the entire 1 million square feet in one tower that "rivals the height of 200 PS." But if the floorplates average 20,000 SF, it cannot put the entire 1 million square feet in one tower that "rivals the height of 200 PS." It would exceed and instead rival Terminal Tower and possibly even Key Tower if SHW's tower would have a crown of some type. But I was told that SHW will "not rival Terminal Tower." In that case, approximately 200,000 SF could end up on the Superblock either next to or above the 900- to 1,000-space parking deck(s).

Edited by KJP
Added the quote about SHW not rivaling Terminal Tower
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"Nearly every problem that we have in the USA -- unaffordable health care, prison overpopulation, hyper militarization, climate change, racism, gun violence, poverty, poor education, urban sprawl and others -- cannot be positively addressed because bribery and conflicts of interest are legal under campaign finance laws which protect the uber-wealthy and the narrow self-interests who grossly benefit from our afflictions."

 

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^ A building to rival 200 PS would be just lovely!  I'll take it!

 

While only the third tallest, 200 PS's skyline presence is and has always been bold and demonstrative; even after Key Tower was built.

Edited by Frmr CLEder
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3 hours ago, Frmr CLEder said:

^ A building to rival 200 PS would be just lovely!  I'll take it!

 

While only the third tallest, 200 PS's skyline presence is and has always been bold and demonstrative; even after Key Tower was built.

 

Likewise!   However, I wonder how many naysayers will complain of the lack of afternoon evening sun in the corporate plaza known as Public Square.   Mayor Jackson could try to limit the height to a Sherwin Williams strip mall store in the interest of avoiding terrorist attacks in the shade.... 😜

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^ There's this thing called The Mall; specifically Malls B or C. It's just a short walk away.

Edited by Frmr CLEder
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49 minutes ago, Cleburger said:

 

Likewise!   However, I wonder how many naysayers will complain of the lack of afternoon evening sun in the corporate plaza known as Public Square.

 

An intelligent friend of mine who appreciates urbanism (even though he lives in Strongsville) is opposed to having a tall building on the Jacobs Lot for this very reason.

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"Nearly every problem that we have in the USA -- unaffordable health care, prison overpopulation, hyper militarization, climate change, racism, gun violence, poverty, poor education, urban sprawl and others -- cannot be positively addressed because bribery and conflicts of interest are legal under campaign finance laws which protect the uber-wealthy and the narrow self-interests who grossly benefit from our afflictions."

 

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Those individuals must be opposed to 200 PS and TCC too. Key Tower is pretty much the only building that doesn't block the sunlight.

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3 minutes ago, Frmr CLEder said:

Those individuals must be opposed to 200 PS and TCC too. Key Tower is pretty much the only building that doesn't block the sunlight.

 

Can't stop something that's already there. Precedence is a very powerful thing with some people. It's amazing how they seem to think that an act of God put a building there, or that it was somehow meant to be, and that anything that isn't already there doesn't belong.

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"Nearly every problem that we have in the USA -- unaffordable health care, prison overpopulation, hyper militarization, climate change, racism, gun violence, poverty, poor education, urban sprawl and others -- cannot be positively addressed because bribery and conflicts of interest are legal under campaign finance laws which protect the uber-wealthy and the narrow self-interests who grossly benefit from our afflictions."

 

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