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Cleveland: Downtown: Sherwin-Williams Headquarters

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22 minutes ago, NorthShore647 said:

Here is a screen cap from the end of the DCA video

uo_sw1.thumb.JPG.61ea5b8bd7e966fc07bf9846b3fedf26.JPG

 

I wouldn't read too much into it, but presumably DCA would know about the new headquarters design before most. They do have a few quick clips with (who i think is) DickPace and the Cumberland development on the lake, so its not like all of the sketches in the video are for theoretical developments. 

uo_sw2.thumb.JPG.2c4c095c3434cfd1e72317dd370bbeb2.JPG

 

Good catch. I see Nucleus and the Flats phase 3 as well.

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26 minutes ago, NorthShore647 said:

Here is a screen cap from the end of the DCA video

uo_sw1.thumb.JPG.61ea5b8bd7e966fc07bf9846b3fedf26.JPG

 

I wouldn't read too much into it, but presumably DCA would know about the new headquarters design before most. They do have a few quick clips with (who i think is) DickPace and the Cumberland development on the lake, so its not like all of the sketches in the video are for theoretical developments. 

uo_sw2.thumb.JPG.2c4c095c3434cfd1e72317dd370bbeb2.JPG

@KJP is naming off all those outlines in his head. 

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4 hours ago, ASPhotoman said:

Yeah, but at least have a brand presence at street level. As far as I know, I've never seen SW signage anywhere except for their technology center. 

 

Actually SHW had its name on the mural hanging on the Landmark Building several years ago. Saying something about their LOVE for their Hometown CLEVELAND...

 

Another reason I think they will STAY IN CLEVELAND!!

 

Unless of course they get just a great over the top INCENTIVES DEAL from another city/state that they would be breaking their duties to their shareholders.

Edited by Larry1962

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i thought the DCA video was extremely well done - a nice acknowledgement of Cleveland’s great past with high aspirations for its future. But regarding the SW building(s) design- - our best published source (by far) on the subject has already said  not to expect more than a 40 story tower for the tallest building. That can still be a major presence on the skyline - but it won’t be  a Supertall and clearly  not as high as the “almost” Supertall Key Tower (which is just 40 feet short of that status ). Like many, I’m a tower lover and understand that this may be CLE’s only real shot at That exclusive club  in our lifetimes (younger and older). But just in terms of the cityscape- -Key Tower comes close to doubling the height of even the  current 4th tallest (Erieview). Key draws the eye strongly towards the Public Square “big 3” and somewhat deemphasizes the skyline as a cohesive whole. As a comparative example, When I look at the Pittsburgh skyline, it seems much more dense and cohesive - but Cleveland actually has 142 high rises - more than Pittsburgh. It’s the proportionality - and the number of 500’ plus towers that is the difference.  Anyway, I’m just thinking that SW’s new HQ might be more complimentary as a 600-700 foot tallest tower with a significantly high second building contributing Some height and more density, especially if it’s on the Westin lot.

Edited by CleveFan
Continuity and accuracy
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13 minutes ago, CleveFan said:

i thought the DCA video was extremely well done - a nice acknowledgement of Cleveland’s great past with high aspirations for its future. But regarding the SW building(s) design- - our best published source (by far) on the subject has already said  not to expect more than a 40 story tower for the tallest building. That can still be a major presence on the skyline - but it won’t be  a Supertall and clearly  not as high as the “almost” Supertall Key Tower (which is just 40 feet short of that status ). Like many, I’m a tower lover and understand that this may be CLE’s only real shot at That exclusive club  in our lifetimes (younger and older). But just in terms of the cityscape- -Key Tower comes close to doubling the height of even the  current 4th tallest (Erieview). Key draws the eye strongly towards the Public Square “big 3” and somewhat deemphasizes the skyline as a cohesive whole. As a comparative example, When I look at the Pittsburgh skyline, it seems much more dense and cohesive - but Cleveland actually has 142 high rises - more than Pittsburgh. It’s the proportionality - and the number of 500’ plus towers that is the difference.  Anyway, I’m just thinking that SW’s new HQ might be more complimentary as a 600-700 foot tallest tower with a significantly high second building contributing Some height and more density, especially if it’s on the Westin lot.

 

It's an optical illusion because our Towers are built around the exterior of Public Square.  If Public Square did not exist, the sky line would be dramatically different.

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On 10/19/2019 at 12:33 AM, MyTwoSense said:

 

It's an optical illusion because our Towers are built around the exterior of Public Square.  If Public Square did not exist, the sky line would be dramatically different.

It's also the result of the fact that for most of the previous 100 years, no building was permitted to exceed the height of Terminal Tower. The Sohio (BP, 200 PS) building is a prime example. It wasn't until Ameritrust and Society (the largest banks at the time) squared off to build the tallest building in the city that those restrictions were eased. Either would have dwarfed all others, but obviously Society (Key) won the fight. Prior to then, most of the tallest commercial buildings were ligned up along the East 9th Street Financial District. Now Key towers above all others and skews the skyline towards PS.

Edited by Frmr CLEder
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“A 30-year veteran of studying downtown Cleveland soils for multiple skyscraper projects, Duane Schreiber, president of geotechnical engineering consulting firm David V. Lewin Corp. of Cleveland, said the 59-story Key Tower required caissons 220 feet deep to reach bedrock for a foundation. The 32-story Hilton Cleveland Downtown went down 120 feet.

Low-rise buildings may use a concrete mat as the foundation, but taller buildings require the more expensive caissons.

"You could do 25 to 30 stories near Public Square with a concrete mat foundation," Schreiber said. "If you want to do more than that there, you have to go to caissons, which causes a big jump in cost. You may as well go a lot higher (such as 60 stories) to make it worthwhile."

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20 minutes ago, marty15 said:

“A 30-year veteran of studying downtown Cleveland soils for multiple skyscraper projects, Duane Schreiber, president of geotechnical engineering consulting firm David V. Lewin Corp. of Cleveland, said the 59-story Key Tower required caissons 220 feet deep to reach bedrock for a foundation. The 32-story Hilton Cleveland Downtown went down 120 feet.

Low-rise buildings may use a concrete mat as the foundation, but taller buildings require the more expensive caissons.

"You could do 25 to 30 stories near Public Square with a concrete mat foundation," Schreiber said. "If you want to do more than that there, you have to go to caissons, which causes a big jump in cost. You may as well go a lot higher (such as 60 stories) to make it worthwhile."

 

@marty15, many thanks for this. 🙌💯🙌

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1 hour ago, John D. Baumgardner said:

Hmmmmm ... I also cannot read the article in Crain's. Once you reach your reading limit, you are prevented from accessing anything without a subscription.

 

Perhaps, another forum member will COPY AND PASTE the article for us? It's been done multiple time's before.

 

No, that's copyrighted material.  You can post a paragraph or two, enough to get the gist of the article for forum discussion, and must include a link and proper reference to the source.  Full articles will be taken down.  You may have seen press releases or something like that copied and pasted.  Those operate under different rules.

 

Trust us, we've gone though it before.  It wasn't fun.

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1 hour ago, John D. Baumgardner said:

Hmmmmm ... I also cannot read the article in Crain's. Once you reach your reading limit, you are prevented from accessing anything without a subscription.

 

Perhaps, another forum member will COPY AND PASTE the article for us? It's been done multiple time's before.

 

 

Hey let’s not get our generous site owners in trouble by violating copyright laws. Please keep copy/paste of copyrighted material to fewer than three paragraphs. 

 

(Journalists deserve to make a living too.)

 

edit: oops @X beat me to posting. 

Edited by Boomerang_Brian
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The article does imply however that Weston has been sitting on their lots since 2015, awaiting an offer from SW.  I hope the PS site comes to fruition but the river site could also serve SW's needs for several reasons.

 

"One potential theory among insiders is that Weston sat on the site — meanwhile putting apartments in The Standard nearby — because another opportunity came up. Some believe that was Sherwin-Williams' rumored search for a new corporate headquarters, which ended up being put on hold by its purchase of Valspar Inc. in 2017."

Edited by Frmr CLEder
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18 hours ago, John D. Baumgardner said:

Hmmmmm ... I also cannot read the article in Crain's. Once you reach your reading limit, you are prevented from accessing anything without a subscription.

 

Perhaps, another forum member will COPY AND PASTE the article for us? It's been done multiple time's before.

 

Evidently, there's a mentioning of a 60-story skyscraper in the Crain's piece ... Judging by another forum member's comment up-thread.

 

 

If a potential 40-story tower averaged 15ft per floor (including a crown?), I believe similar 60-story building on the PS lot could easily top 900ft. For perspective, Key is 57 stories...🤔

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Off-topic, but posting this to be 100% crystal clear - under no circumstances should anyone EVER post a copyrighted article OR a workaround to a media outlet paywall, etc. 

 

In September 2009, the Admins were given a 'cease and desist' by the eight largest newspapers in Ohio regarding posts containing entire articles (and images) that were copy/pasted from the respective websites. Our first thoughts were 'it's the end of the forum as we know it'. ☹️ 

 

While I typically don't toot my own horn, yours truly negotiated with the media group to get us time to get the entire forum compliant - at that time it was 114 pages of threads and 188,000 posts. They gave us one month. 😳 Thanks to an amazing group of forum volunteers, every thread and post was scrubbed, edited to compliance (an intro paragraph followed by the link directing to the article on the original site - paywall or not) and brought back online. If it weren't for me negotiating and the countless hours from the volunteers, the forum you're enjoying wouldn't exist. With that ...

 

One more time to make sure the message is clear - under no circumstances should anyone EVER post a copyrighted article OR a workaround to a media outlet's paywall, etc. 

 

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Appears that the Jacobs Public Square surface parking lot is getting resurfaced today.  Bunch of trucks out there now stripping off the asphalt.  Seems strange to be investing in parking lot upgrades, especially since the asphalt didn't appear to be that bad.  Let the speculation ensue...

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25 minutes ago, htsfan said:

Appears that the Jacobs Public Square surface parking lot is getting resurfaced today.  Bunch of trucks out there now stripping off the asphalt.  Seems strange to be investing in parking lot upgrades, especially since the asphalt didn't appear to be that bad.  Let the speculation ensue...

 

Investing money in a parking lot that is about to be destroyed is a quintessential Cleveland vibe.

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28 minutes ago, htsfan said:

Appears that the Jacobs Public Square surface parking lot is getting resurfaced today.  Bunch of trucks out there now stripping off the asphalt.  Seems strange to be investing in parking lot upgrades, especially since the asphalt didn't appear to be that bad.  Let the speculation ensue...

 

That's a great sign! The Playhouse Square parking lot that was the site of the Lumen was resurfaced and restriped while rumors swirled about a new apartment tower. 😄

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22 hours ago, marty15 said:

"You could do 25 to 30 stories near Public Square with a concrete mat foundation," Schreiber said. "If you want to do more than that there, you have to go to caissons, which causes a big jump in cost. You may as well go a lot higher (such as 60 stories) to make it worthwhile."

 

I love the concept, but I'm not sure how much sense that reasoning really makes. As Millennia recently found out, the CBD still isn't healthy enough to quickly absorb 400,000 sq. ft. of extra class A space. So unless SHW is interested in becoming a residential landlord or opening up a hotel in its new tower (which would be surprising but cool!) or unless SHW has a vision to pair with some creative developer for the extra 20 floors, the idea of building taller because you've already got caissons seems like a sunk-cost fallacy.

 

On the other hand, what I don't know (and maybe someone could enlighten me) is would any money be saved by having, say, a 60-story tower and two 15-story towers, all with identical footprints, as opposed to a 40-story tower and two 25-story towers? 

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I'm hearing from a very reliable source that Breckville's Valor Acres is still very much in the running for the R&D portion.  Don't rule that out just yet.

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20 minutes ago, scb0525 said:

I'm hearing from a very reliable source that Breckville's Valor Acres is still very much in the running for the R&D portion.  Don't rule that out just yet.

 

So, would consolidating the automotive finishes division in Warrensville Hts be part of the R&D campus?  I apologize if this was already addressed.

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1 hour ago, LlamaLawyer said:

 

I love the concept, but I'm not sure how much sense that reasoning really makes. As Millennia recently found out, the CBD still isn't healthy enough to quickly absorb 400,000 sq. ft. of extra class A space. So unless SHW is interested in becoming a residential landlord or opening up a hotel in its new tower (which would be surprising but cool!) or unless SHW has a vision to pair with some creative developer for the extra 20 floors, the idea of building taller because you've already got caissons seems like a sunk-cost fallacy.

 

On the other hand, what I don't know (and maybe someone could enlighten me) is would any money be saved by having, say, a 60-story tower and two 15-story towers, all with identical footprints, as opposed to a 40-story tower and two 25-story towers? 

The thing is, S-W could absorb all that space itself when it moves in. They're looking at 1.8million square feet, which is larger than Key Tower.

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2 hours ago, htsfan said:

Appears that the Jacobs Public Square surface parking lot is getting resurfaced today.  Bunch of trucks out there now stripping off the asphalt.  Seems strange to be investing in parking lot upgrades, especially since the asphalt didn't appear to be that bad.  Let the speculation ensue...

 

That's a minimal cost though. They probably make enough at that lot in a week or two to cover the cost of resurfacing. On top of that even if that location is selected, its probably at least a year away from excavation beginning on any sort of new building.

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^Agreed.  They also recently installed a new sidewalk and mulch around the perimeter.  Of course, the city (I'm assuming CPP) has ALREADY spray painted over it.  Unbelievable.

 

 

Edited by Oldmanladyluck
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2 hours ago, scb0525 said:

I'm hearing from a very reliable source that Breckville's Valor Acres is still very much in the running for the R&D portion.  Don't rule that out just yet.

 

From everything I've heard, the HQ and R&D are going together. Where one goes, the other goes. At least that's the preference. So if SHW gets an offer for a better deal to put the R&D at Valor Acres, they might just take it. Or, they could use that possibility to extract a better deal(s) from downtown property owners.

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1 hour ago, Mov2Ohio said:

The thing is, S-W could absorb all that space itself when it moves in. They're looking at 1.8million square feet, which is larger than Key Tower.

 

Of course. I'm basing my comments on what @KJP has said that they're looking at roughly 40 stories and a campus as opposed to a 1500-foot monstrosity on the Jacobs lot that you could see from Sandusky.

 

I'm not nearly as knowledgeable as some on this forum when it comes to construction logistics and cost. My point is just that there doesn't seem to be a common-sense reason for SHW to say "well if we're doing 40 stories we might as well do 60." I'd love a 1000' tower on the Jacobs lot, but anything over 500' could be a really iconic fourth pillar around Public Square.

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3 hours ago, htsfan said:

Appears that the Jacobs Public Square surface parking lot is getting resurfaced today.  Bunch of trucks out there now stripping off the asphalt.  Seems strange to be investing in parking lot upgrades, especially since the asphalt didn't appear to be that bad.  Let the speculation ensue...

If they were selling the property, they would want it to appraise for as much as possible.  Consider it like painting your house when you want to sell...

 

 

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On 10/20/2019 at 12:32 PM, marty15 said:

“A 30-year veteran of studying downtown Cleveland soils for multiple skyscraper projects, Duane Schreiber, president of geotechnical engineering consulting firm David V. Lewin Corp. of Cleveland, said the 59-story Key Tower required caissons 220 feet deep to reach bedrock for a foundation. The 32-story Hilton Cleveland Downtown went down 120 feet.

Low-rise buildings may use a concrete mat as the foundation, but taller buildings require the more expensive caissons.

"You could do 25 to 30 stories near Public Square with a concrete mat foundation," Schreiber said. "If you want to do more than that there, you have to go to caissons, which causes a big jump in cost. You may as well go a lot higher (such as 60 stories) to make it worthwhile."

 

 

very interesting and helpful marty thank you --- and just for comparison sake average caissons go in at 44 feet on the brooklyn side and 78 feet on the manhattan side.

 

that's why its easier in manhattan and some other cities to build tall towers. 

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BTW, I'm aware of some property transactions and even some developments on hold (or at least go-slow) right now until they get confirmation on whether SHW is leaving, staying, expanding, etc. Some of the investors/developers who are connected to those who are involved with SHW are proceeding with their projects because they are confident that SHW is staying. But there is no certainty until we hear it from the horse's mouth.

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2 minutes ago, mrclifton88 said:

@KJP are you still hearing that we will hear an announcement by the end of the month? That means this week or next!  What a relief it will be to finally know all. 

 

I've not heard anything different. But the reality is probably going to be different from the goal.

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49 minutes ago, KJP said:

I've not heard anything different. But the reality is probably going to be different from the goal.

Different than the goal of staying in Cleveland (though from your amazing reporting I would assume that's not a question anymore) or the goal of being on PS?

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Just now, MikeyB440 said:

Different than the goal of staying in Cleveland (though from your amazing reporting I would assume that's not a question anymore) or the goal of being on PS?

 

Just timing wise. If negotiations slow down because SHW wants to give one site's property owners or another's more time to respond, then things might take longer.

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1 minute ago, KJP said:

 

Just timing wise. If negotiations slow down because SHW wants to give one site's property owners or another's more time to respond, then things might take longer.

 

Even though waiting is the hardest, out of all of the answers you could have given this is the least worrisome. Thanks for all you do!

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5 hours ago, LlamaLawyer said:

 

I love the concept, but I'm not sure how much sense that reasoning really makes. As Millennia recently found out, the CBD still isn't healthy enough to quickly absorb 400,000 sq. ft. of extra class A space. So unless SHW is interested in becoming a residential landlord or opening up a hotel in its new tower (which would be surprising but cool!) or unless SHW has a vision to pair with some creative developer for the extra 20 floors...


How weird is the idea of having a hotel? I’ve been to quite a few corporate HQ that have had, or been connected to, hotels. That said, my sample size is fairly small and many of these are in smaller cities. 
 

Is it common the have a hotel for employees visiting from other sites, value chain partners, etc.? Do the hotel’s surrounding PS, the Riverfront, or VA have the infrastructure and capacity a growing S-W would want moving forward? 

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