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Cleveland: Downtown: Sherwin-Williams Headquarters

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No I wasn't being sarcastic.  Yes the Warehouse District has its eyesores but downtown Cbus is FAR from having any room to talk.  New mid-rise or not.  Anyways, I'm not here to start stuff between Cleveland and Columbus but their grass isn't any greener than ours.

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^Are you sure about the Ameritrust building, I recall them really trying to market that building to anyone.

 

What I heard was that once they found that they couldn't fill it, they emptied it of the smaller tenants to keep other properties in town full(er).  I don't think that means that they stopped trying to fill it, but maybe they weren't interested in having two buildings below 50%, and instead wanted one building near 100% and closed the empty one (Breuer tower) pending sufficient demand.  Seems like a reasonable business practice.

 

At any rate, it doesn't matter whether the Breuer tower was intentionally emptied or not.  Let's assume I was misinformed or wrong.  My point is still valid, if not clear.  If we build a new tower on the square, that's a lot of new space to fill in a metropolitan area that isn't growing.

 

See the numbers Florida Guy posted.  If half of those firms move to new construction, that's close to 500,000 sq. ft. of space in older buildings that would be harder to fill.  Most likely the vacated spaces would be broken up into smaller square footage spaces and not all of it would be leased. 

 

We could see Eaton Center or another building, for example, remain empty.  That was what I was trying to say.

 

If we're going to build new construction, I'd prefer to fill Wolstein's East Bank and Stark's Pesht developments before adding to the skyline.  Cleveland already has a nice skyline, and Wolstein's and Stark's projects will bring more activity to the street level.  That in turn could help to attract more residents and workers into the downtown in a way that I don't think a new tower would.

 

The Avenue District is leading the way.  We can watch and see whether the streets in that area are improved by the project or not.  Perhaps I'll be wrong again.

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^it is empty. Some insiders say that they think it would be a good candidate for residential conversion. I believe that it applied for the new state historical tax credit (historical??).

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^it is empty. Some insiders say that they think it would be a good candidate for residential conversion. I believe that it applied for the new state historical tax credit (historical??).

 

I agree, amazing location right in the heart of downtown.

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^Are you sure about the Ameritrust building, I recall them really trying to market that building to anyone.

 

What I heard was that once they found that they couldn't fill it, they emptied it of the smaller tenants to keep other properties in town full(er).  I don't think that means that they stopped trying to fill it, but maybe they weren't interested in having two buildings below 50%, and instead wanted one building near 100% and closed the empty one (Breuer tower) pending sufficient demand.  Seems like a reasonable business practice.

 

At any rate, it doesn't matter whether the Breuer tower was intentionally emptied or not.  Let's assume I was misinformed or wrong.  My point is still valid, if not clear.  If we build a new tower on the square, that's a lot of new space to fill in a metropolitan area that isn't growing.

 

See the numbers Florida Guy posted.  If half of those firms move to new construction, that's close to 500,000 sq. ft. of space in older buildings that would be harder to fill.  Most likely the vacated spaces would be broken up into smaller square footage spaces and not all of it would be leased. 

 

We could see Eaton Center or another building, for example, remain empty.  That was what I was trying to say.

 

If we're going to build new construction, I'd prefer to fill Wolstein's East Bank and Stark's Pesht developments before adding to the skyline.  Cleveland already has a nice skyline, and Wolstein's and Stark's projects will bring more activity to the street level.  That in turn could help to attract more residents and workers into the downtown in a way that I don't think a new tower would.

 

The Avenue District is leading the way.  We can watch and see whether the streets in that area are improved by the project or not.  Perhaps I'll be wrong again.

ok, i'm going to plead ignorance on this one, but how would having more people living downtown increase the liklihood of businesses moving there?

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People like to live and work in the same area. It is a recruiting tool for companies that compete for skilled workers. Now more than ever.

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ok, i'm going to plead ignorance on this one, but how would having more people living downtown increase the liklihood of businesses moving there?

 

Sorry MayDay, but I need to answer this question. Actually, I'll let CSU Urban Affairs folks answer it....

 

http://urban.csuohio.edu/economicdevelopment/knight/tools/land/marketrate.htm

Maintaining an economically diverse residential base is critical to the health of a municipality. The addition of new housing units in a growing area is a necessity and an automatic outcome of population shifts. In declining areas, developing new housing is often a challenge, but it is viewed as an important economic development strategy. By retaining residents or attracting new ones to the city, local leaders hope to capture additional tax revenue. New housing not only adds to the residential property tax base, but can also contribute to the commercial property tax base by attracting new businesses.

 

The availability of downtown residential units is particularly important. Labor markets and housing markets are directly related - housing attracts labor. More importantly, people tend to start businesses close to where they live if the market makes it possible. The availability of downtown housing may reinvigorate downtown business activity. Finally, housing is part of the amenity package that attracts business and amenities justify higher rent levels for downtown commercial space.


"Life is 10% what happens to you and 90% how you respond." -- Coach Lou Holtz

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ok, i'm going to plead ignorance on this one, but how would having more people living downtown increase the liklihood of businesses moving there?

 

Sorry MayDay, but I need to answer this question. Actually, I'll let CSU Urban Affairs folks answer it....

 

http://urban.csuohio.edu/economicdevelopment/knight/tools/land/marketrate.htm

Maintaining an economically diverse residential base is critical to the health of a municipality. The addition of new housing units in a growing area is a necessity and an automatic outcome of population shifts. In declining areas, developing new housing is often a challenge, but it is viewed as an important economic development strategy. By retaining residents or attracting new ones to the city, local leaders hope to capture additional tax revenue. New housing not only adds to the residential property tax base, but can also contribute to the commercial property tax base by attracting new businesses.

 

The availability of downtown residential units is particularly important. Labor markets and housing markets are directly related - housing attracts labor. More importantly, people tend to start businesses close to where they live if the market makes it possible. The availability of downtown housing may reinvigorate downtown business activity. Finally, housing is part of the amenity package that attracts business and amenities justify higher rent levels for downtown commercial space.

 

that's some department head's opiniion at CSU, not necessarily fact.  i am quite sure we have healthy pockets of population densities in and around Cleveland, but I don't see businesses flocking to relocate from other areas...

 

an area is ripe for strong business development if you have a mix of several things: low cost of living, which translates to a low cost of doing business, friendly municipal tax structure, young educated work force to tap into, etc

 

 

 

 

 

 

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flee first of all lets be reasonable -- there is no "flocking" in the cleve! trickling yes, but no flocking. and thats fine.

 

also, as you know urban living is a huge movement in the real estate market. you can see it hapening in every major city. part of the reason is that people in traditional jobs want the option of living and playing near the office rather than wasting time commuting. i dont think its exactly right to think of it as an amenity, like a swimming pool in your apt, but i suppose it is to some.

 

clev has enough trouble attracting people and filling positions, so i believe the expansion of downtown living options is absolutely crucial. i agree with what you say, but i think its another important key to retaining and obtaining employees.

 

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^I don’t know that there has been any real news (new or old) about this project at all.  Just some word of mouth kind of stuff it sounds like.  Who knows when or if any confirmation will come out. 

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^I don’t know that there has been any real news (new or old) about this project at all.  Just some word of mouth kind of stuff it sounds like.  Who knows when or if any confirmation will come out. 

 

and somehow we have all babbled for 5+ pages.........

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^I don’t know that there has been any real news (new or old) about this project at all.  Just some word of mouth kind of stuff it sounds like.  Who knows when or if any confirmation will come out. 

 

and somehow we have all babbled for 5+ pages.........

 

This thread's just the bastard child of the Pesht one: now 2.5 years, 49 ppg and, yet, nothing still announced; concrete.  We UOers are a desperate lot... kinda like Cleve sports fans, no?  :-o

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Or just a friendly, chatty lot...


"Life is 10% what happens to you and 90% how you respond." -- Coach Lou Holtz

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ok, i'm going to plead ignorance on this one, but how would having more people living downtown increase the liklihood of businesses moving there?

 

I can't say for certain what would bring more large businesses to Cleveland, but I'd rather work in a downtown with ten ten-story buildings and all the potential retail on the ground floor (lunchtime variety, shops that would allow me to run some errands at lunch and before and after work, more people on the street doing the same) than in a 1000 story tower with only its own retail.  So if we have a choice of Starks's plan or a Jacobs tower, my vote is for Starks.  I would be happy to revisit the idea of another tower after Starks's plan is built.

 

And I agree with what others have chimed in about above. 

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ok, i'm going to plead ignorance on this one, but how would having more people living downtown increase the liklihood of businesses moving there?

 

By making the location more convenient to workforce, primarily the high skilled workforce that is most in demand- young, creative, technology savvy people.  Those are the people who are often associated with downtown housing.  Also, if executive level housing is built, the executives that live there will be more likely to demand that the office stays close to their home.  The residential location of executives is one of the prime determiners of where a company will move its offices.

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Just ask the folks at Office Max!!


"Life is 10% what happens to you and 90% how you respond." -- Coach Lou Holtz

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This whole talk of encouraging workers to leave their office building to shop and eat reminds me of the development of Government Center in Boston, MA.  When it was conceived, it was explicitly designed to consolidate all of the local, state, and federal employees in the city without a cafeteria or other retail establishments inside in order to bolster street life downtown, and with a ridiculous number of workers (I think it was something like 25,000,) it was seen as a sure thing.  Unfortunately, they didn't realize that the workers were only willing to walk a certain distance to eat and that they didn't have time or didn't want to take the bus or subway.  The area immediately surrounding Government Center flourished, but it did nothing for the rest of the downtown, and in fact, it hurt those areas whence the workers were relocated.

 

At the same time, however, the 52-story Prudential Tower was being built to the west, and contrary to everyone's expectations, an upscale shopping district developed around it.  Obviously, these two developments happened in a different time and place, but it's worth remembering that Boston in the 60's and 70's was not a terribly attractive place to live or work.

 

Anyway, my point is that we're probably over-simplifying the impact of Pesht and a potential Jacobs tower.  While Pesht will certainly improve streetlife in the Warehouse District, and probably east to Lower Euclid and Superior, I don't know what kind of generalizations we can make about its impact on the rest of downtown.  At the same time, a large tower may not be the end of life as we know it.  There are too many variables to consider.

 

That said, I would love to see a buzzing Warehouse district before anything else, as it could generate excitement about living downtown.  One of the things that Boston didn't have in the 60's that we have now is a growing downtown population, and I think we could make great things happening elsewhere downtown by capitalizing on Pesht's success.

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[shadow=red,left]I'd rather work in a downtown with ten ten-story buildings and all the potential retail on the ground floor (lunchtime variety, shops that would allow me to run some errands at lunch and before and after work, more people on the street doing the same) than in a 1000 story tower with only its own retail. [/shadow]

 

 

Now that would be one enormous tower.... is Jacobs trying to outdo the new Dubai structure?  :wink:

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[shadow=red,left]I'd rather work in a downtown with ten ten-story buildings and all the potential retail on the ground floor (lunchtime variety, shops that would allow me to run some errands at lunch and before and after work, more people on the street doing the same) than in a 1000 story tower with only its own retail. [/shadow]

 

AH the concept of elevator to sapce could be built on the top floor,essentialy making it the gateway to heaven,right in downtown cleveland.Let us collect all our penny to invest in this great idea

 

 

Now that would be one enormous tower.... is Jacobs trying to outdo the new Dubai structure?  :wink:

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[shadow=red,left]I'd rather work in a downtown with ten ten-story buildings and all the potential retail on the ground floor (lunchtime variety, shops that would allow me to run some errands at lunch and before and after work, more people on the street doing the same) than in a 1000 story tower with only its own retail. [/shadow]

 

AH the concept of elevator to sapce could be built on the top floor,essentialy making it the gateway to heaven,right in downtown cleveland.Let us collect all our penny to invest in this great idea

 

 

Now that would be one enormous tower.... is Jacobs trying to outdo the new Dubai structure?   :wink:

 

 

 

WOW

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I wonder if Baker Hostetler is a potential tenant for Jacobs. They're currently in the NCB Building. The talk of new office towers intially focused on them and at one point I recall hearing that they were interested in going into the Jacobs property with Eaton.

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I would have to think so, right? I mean, it sounds like they're pretty serious about at least considering going forward on this one.

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Which would you rather have though, The Jacobs tower or Pesht?  I don't see how the market could bear both, unless like they said a company the size of boeing wanted to move their headquarters here.... I would vote for pesht.

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For the health of downtown, I would like to see a mixed use tower on the site instead of just office space (since it looks like Jacobs is serious about getting this tower built).  That would be the only way both Pesht and the Jacobs tower could coexist.

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For the health of downtown, I would like to see a mixed use tower on the site instead of just office space (since it looks like Jacobs is serious about getting this tower built).  That would be the only way both Pesht and the Jacobs tower could coexist.

 

Remember the proposed AmeriTrust tower was mixed use with a hotel.

 

I would think - rather hope - this building would:

 

a) Host a hotel

b) A select group of condo's

c) Be a signature building

d) Have street level retail

e) Have an observation area and or signature restaurant

f)  Be Ohio's new tallest building

 

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