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Cleveland: Downtown: Sherwin-Williams Headquarters

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25 minutes ago, YABO713 said:

 

FWIW - I doubt they're digitized just because that would be an access target for bad actors looking to get on SHW's network. But maybe it is, I'm sure they have a bulky IT dept

 

And their IT department is getting bigger. Crain's reported last week that SHW is hiring another 60 people for their IT department.

 

Correction - Stan Bullard of Crain's tweeted that.

Edited by KJP
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"Nearly every problem that we have in the USA -- unaffordable health care, prison overpopulation, hyper militarization, climate change, racism, gun violence, poverty, poor education, urban sprawl and others -- cannot be positively addressed because bribery and conflicts of interest are legal under campaign finance laws which protect the uber-wealthy and the narrow self-interests who grossly benefit from our afflictions."

 

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When someone here asked about SHW needing to assemble its capital stack prior to building its headquarters/research facilities, I kept thinking of a better way to respond than I had. When I saw an article this morning discussing why someone should invest in SHW stock, that's when it hit me. Consider that....

 

+ SHW is proposing 1.8 million square feet of new facilities.

+ A global headquarters and major research facility for this Fortune 500 company is probably going to cost roughly $1,000 per square foot (vs $224/sf for the luxury Lumen apartment tower).

+ This gigantic undertaking is going to cost SHW somewhere in the neighborhood of $1.8 BILLION.

+ SHW's net operating cash flow is nearly $2 billion per year (a 49% increase from 2016 thanks to the Valspar acquisition and almost double the amount from 2014).

+ Once it pays down the Valspar debt, SHW "could" pay for this gigantic HQ+R&D capital investment as a "current liability", ie: with less than one year of cash.

+ In 2008 and 2009, SHW's net operating cash flow was $876 million and $859 million, respectively. This is a very resilient company. So even if there is a recession, SHW could probably still afford this 1.8-million-square-foot HQ+R&D facility with little difficulty.

 

** Oh, and one more thing, given these numbers, I don't think whatever public incentives Cleveland or Brecksville can offer are going to make a big difference to SHW. I'm not saying SHW is going to spend like a drunken sailor for this project. But I am saying that other aspects (prestige, access to amenities, public relations, corporate values/tradition/history, etc) are going to guide this decision.

Edited by KJP
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"Nearly every problem that we have in the USA -- unaffordable health care, prison overpopulation, hyper militarization, climate change, racism, gun violence, poverty, poor education, urban sprawl and others -- cannot be positively addressed because bribery and conflicts of interest are legal under campaign finance laws which protect the uber-wealthy and the narrow self-interests who grossly benefit from our afflictions."

 

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32 minutes ago, KJP said:

When someone here asked about SHW needing to assemble its capital stack prior to building its headquarters/research facilities, I kept thinking of a better way to respond than I had. When I saw an article this morning discussing why someone should invest in SHW stock, that's when it hit me. Consider that....

 

+ SHW is proposing 1.8 million square feet of new facilities.

+ A global headquarters and major research facility for this Fortune 500 company is probably going to cost roughly $1,000 per square foot (vs $224/sf for the luxury Lumen apartment tower).

+ This gigantic undertaking is going to cost SHW somewhere in the neighborhood of $1.8 BILLION.

+ SHW's net operating cash flow is nearly $2 billion per year (a 49% increase from 2016 thanks to the Valspar acquisition and almost double the amount from 2014).

+ Once it pays down the Valspar debt, SHW "could" pay for this gigantic HQ+R&D capital investment as a "current liability", ie: with less than one year of cash.

+ In 2008 and 2009, SHW's net operating cash flow was $876 million and $859 million, respectively. This is a very resilient company. So even if there is a recession, SHW could probably still afford this 1.8-million-square-foot HQ+R&D facility with little difficulty.

 

** Oh, and one more thing, given these numbers, I don't think whatever public incentives Cleveland or Brecksville can offer are going to make a big difference to SHW. I'm not saying SHW is going to spend like a drunken sailor for this project. But I am saying that other aspects (prestige, access to amenities, public relations, corporate values/tradition/history, etc) are going to guide this decision.

SW deserves to take its rightful place on Public Square.

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@KJP After talks with your contacts, what are the chances SHW would build their HQ+R&D+Parking garage all in one single tower on public square?

 

Maybe pass 1,455ft for the second tallest in the USA.  

Edited by NR
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This is going to be a long couple years lol, although it seems like things are moving in a very positive direction (albeit I'm sure a lot can change in a project like this between now and groundbreaking *fingers crossed no repeat of anything close to 2008*). In the meantime, I'm going to continue to curse at the surface parking lol 

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1 hour ago, NR said:

Maybe pass 1,455 sqft for the second tallest in the USA.  

 

1455 ft is probably not likely, although that would be amazing to see...

I think a 1000 ft HQ and a 400-500 ft R&D is much more reasonable and would have just a much of an impact (density and height-wise) as something that tall:

image.png.4fdcbcfdfe2061fa0f2abd1314bdeec6.png

 

 

Nonetheless, I present the 1400+ tower proposition for ***** and giggles:

image.png.61d6e8750e8421fa348627412f045ff3.png

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3 minutes ago, Geowizical said:
 

1455 ft is probably not likely, although that would be amazing to see...

I think a 1000 ft HQ and a 400-500 ft R&D is much more reasonable and would have just a much of an impact (density and height-wise) as something that tall:

image.png.4fdcbcfdfe2061fa0f2abd1314bdeec6.png

 

 

Nonetheless, I present the 1400+ tower proposition for ***** and giggles:

image.png.61d6e8750e8421fa348627412f045ff3.png

Personally, I prefer Figure 1.  It provides greater density.  Key Tower already sticks out in relationship to other downtown towers and 1400+ is even more pronounced than Key.

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2 hours ago, NR said:

@KJP After talks with your contacts, what are the chances SHW would build their HQ+R&D+Parking garage all in one single tower on public square?

 

Maybe pass 1,455 sqft for the second tallest in the USA.  

 

Unknown. Since multiple sites are being considered, no one knows where it will go, so it's impossible to know how tall it could be. Details about site, height, number of buildings, etc. probably won't be known for a year or so.

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"Nearly every problem that we have in the USA -- unaffordable health care, prison overpopulation, hyper militarization, climate change, racism, gun violence, poverty, poor education, urban sprawl and others -- cannot be positively addressed because bribery and conflicts of interest are legal under campaign finance laws which protect the uber-wealthy and the narrow self-interests who grossly benefit from our afflictions."

 

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3 hours ago, Geowizical said:
 

1455 ft is probably not likely, although that would be amazing to see...

I think a 1000 ft HQ and a 400-500 ft R&D is much more reasonable and would have just a much of an impact (density and height-wise) as something that tall:

image.png.4fdcbcfdfe2061fa0f2abd1314bdeec6.png

 

 

Nonetheless, I present the 1400+ tower proposition for ***** and giggles:

image.png.61d6e8750e8421fa348627412f045ff3.png

The second rendering made me lol! Love it. Thanks for the nice sketchup, would love to see your first rendering a reality. 

Edited by Nickel Plate RR
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On 8/27/2019 at 5:41 PM, sizzlinbeef said:

The only thing his post was missing was a mention of the autistic spectrum.

 

In an R&D center, we’re talking about experimentation, not marketing.   Chemistry.   Hard science.    Probably a pilot plant or two that doesn’t always smell very good.

 

Even when Ferro Corporation was headquartered downtown, their tech center was in Independence.   Set back from the road, even.

 

Lots of people of all types will be found working in a major tech center, just like a college campus.   But success or failure is often determined by a small group of geniuses. 

 

And yeah, they may be on the spectrum.   They often are.  But in 2019, that’s not even considered an insult, except by the ignorant, dense, or undereducated.  The people in question embrace the term, more often than not.

 

 

IMG_8209.JPG

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19 minutes ago, Terdolph said:

Case nerds.

 

LOL back in the day I was all about being as opposite of that stereotype as I could while maintaining a more or less acceptable GPA.    Now I just go with.....

 

 

stooges.jpg

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Just out of respect for the other buildings, I'd rather have the shorter 1100' tower. Our skyline would look very odd with a single building over 1400' tall. Plus, a second R&D tower looks very nice.

 

Maybe far into the future a 1400' tower would look fine. We just need more 1000'+ towers to help it blend in better.

Edited by CLE_Millennial
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It would be amazing to have a 1,000-foot supertall. It would be just as amazing to see a significant (30+ story) tower(s) built on these God-awful parking lots.

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"Nearly every problem that we have in the USA -- unaffordable health care, prison overpopulation, hyper militarization, climate change, racism, gun violence, poverty, poor education, urban sprawl and others -- cannot be positively addressed because bribery and conflicts of interest are legal under campaign finance laws which protect the uber-wealthy and the narrow self-interests who grossly benefit from our afflictions."

 

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6 hours ago, KJP said:

It would be amazing to have a 1,000-foot supertall. It would be just as amazing to see a significant (30+ story) tower(s) built on these God-awful parking lots.

Agreed!

 

Those horrendous parking lot eye-sores have been there for more than 30 years; since before the Rennaisance Hotel, since before Stouffers Inn on the Square, since before the Sheraton Cleveland. 

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19 hours ago, CLE_Millennial said:

Just out of respect for the other buildings, I'd rather have the shorter 1100' tower. Our skyline would look very odd with a single building over 1400' tall. Plus, a second R&D tower looks very nice.

 

Maybe far into the future a 1400' tower would look fine. We just need more 1000'+ towers to help it blend in better.

 

Some of you are getting greedy wanting both LOL.   I know that putting the HQ in Brecksville as well was at least considered.

 

One other thought:  putting a few miles between the R&D center and HQ is good for making it a little tougher for the execs and marketing types to drop in and "help".  🙂

 

I want as tall as practical.   A few floors of garage to boost the height, even.   For over thirty years we had the tallest building in the US outside Manhattan, and it was well over twice as tall as the 2nd tallest here.

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At the request of @NR

 

image.png.ba36a46b848655bc57a701f97b5e2eba.png

 

And another Sketchup glamour shot. Still keep in mind: I'm basing all of this off of the Amazon/Old SW Renderings. This is a best-guess and not accurate of whatever the final may be...

Another note: Buildings in ORANGE are Under Construction. Buildings in YELLOW are Proposed/Approved/Yet To Be Announced

image.thumb.png.4404b49e96efe531a92d7e5fabbe6ebf.png

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I love how a 1000ft tower looks in the Beacon rendering. Creates a cool spiral effect of the buildings around the Square going from TT>BP>Key>SHW. I also feel like having a "bulkier" building on that side, such as from old rendering, would help accentuate Terminal Tower, rather than diminish or overshadow it, by creating a mirror effect between it and Key.

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1 minute ago, Pugu said:

^Cool, thanks. For SW, what is the height you're using in those sketchups?

 

1070 ft. I went lower end of 1000+ realistically speaking... R&D tower next door is about 600 ft. But I should probably decrease the height to 400-500 ft.

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I was at a cookout yesterday attended by an upper mid lever management SW employee.  I could not help myself and very diplomatically asked if he could offer any news on a possible new headquarters building.  He gave me a look like I asked to date his 22 year old daughter.  More sweat when I rambled off some key tidbits gleamed from this forum.  I could tell he was thinking "who the hell is this guy".  Completely tight lipped.  All he would offer was that they are busting at the seams in the Midland Building and they gobble up the space the minute any non-SW tenant vacates the building which of course is hardly mind blowing news.

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2 minutes ago, Htsguy said:

I was at a cookout yesterday attended by an upper mid lever management SW employee.  I could not help myself and very diplomatically asked if he could offer any news on a possible new headquarters building.  He gave me a look like I asked to date his 22 year old daughter.  More sweat when I rambled off some key tidbits gleamed from this forum.  I could tell he was thinking "who the hell is this guy".  Completely tight lipped.  All he would offer was that they are busting at the seams in the Midland Building and they gobble up the space the minute any non-SW tenant vacates the building which of course is hardly mind blowing news.

Maybe this upper mid level management employee wasn't as informed as we are here on urban ohio.

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6 minutes ago, simplythis said:

Maybe this upper mid level management employee wasn't as informed as we are here on urban ohio.

No I could tell he had been told not to talk about such things (Recall the email that SW employees received telling them not to discuss a new headquarters building)

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It sounded like he (the SHW manager) knew but was surprised that you (@Htsguy) knew, correct?

 

BTW, it was fun to read that advisory email to SHW employees because its message won't make any difference.  😉

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"Nearly every problem that we have in the USA -- unaffordable health care, prison overpopulation, hyper militarization, climate change, racism, gun violence, poverty, poor education, urban sprawl and others -- cannot be positively addressed because bribery and conflicts of interest are legal under campaign finance laws which protect the uber-wealthy and the narrow self-interests who grossly benefit from our afflictions."

 

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17 minutes ago, KJP said:

It sounded like he (the SHW manager) knew but was surprised that you (@Htsguy) knew, correct?

 

BTW, it was fun to read that advisory email to SHW employees because its message won't make any difference.  😉

Yep.  I even mentioned the RFQ and DeGeronimo

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Interesting rendering of building masses that might be. It underscores a specific design issue that is obviously way in the future. But I will get my opinion in here. The tallest building should have a set back top ending in a peak, like but not the same, as Key Tower.

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1 hour ago, fgerlak said:

Interesting rendering of building masses that might be. It underscores a specific design issue that is obviously way in the future. But I will get my opinion in here. The tallest building should have a set back top ending in a peak, like but not the same, as Key Tower.

 

I’ll catch flak for this, but I think a 40 story paint can would be pretty cool

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1 hour ago, YABO713 said:

 

I’ll catch flak for this, but I think a 40 story paint can would be pretty cool

I just want a big, stainless globe at the top. #covertheearth

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8 minutes ago, marty15 said:

I just want a big, stainless globe at the top. #covertheearth

 

Thats a neat idea.   I think it would be better if they did a peak at the top of the 1,000++ building, because people couldn’t see it well up that high.  Then put the big  globe/paint-can(designed like the logo, and all stainless) on the public square side of their property for people to take pictures. Kind of like the Bean in Chicago.

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15 minutes ago, NR said:

 

Thats a neat idea.   I think it would be better if they did a peak at the top of the 1,000++ building, because people couldn’t see it well up that high.  Then put the big  globe/paint-can(designed like the logo, and all stainless) on the public square side of their property for people to take pictures. Kind of like the Bean in Chicago.

I can get behind that.

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So I ran into a teammate last night in my adult hockey league, both of us being injured we were watching the game.  In asking him about his injury I also asked him what he did for a living.  Supervisor for R&D at Sherwin Williams!  Trying not to pry...ok, actually obviously prying, I asked him about his thoughts on DT vs Brecksville.  He just smiled and turned his head and said...no comment.  I then said, as long as your not selling your house and moving to Minneapolis!  He laughed again.  He reverted back to his time returning to work (and this is where I dropped the ball) and said "let me just say I going back to work on the 12th for a reason".   Where I dropped the ball was, at first he thought he was going to be off for an extended period due to hamstring surgery reattachment, but then the timeframe got shortened .   So did he say the 12th?  or 12 weeks? (Which would make it 9 more weeks).  It was loud and I couldn't hear him as well as I would have liked.  Okay super sleuths, would either of these time frames mean anything for announcements?

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My take: he was advised by a company-wide email not to comment publicly on possible facility relocations. And his "back to work on the 12th" comment sounds like a reference to him wanting to stay employed by keeping his mouth shut.

 

I have a tidbit from a very good source, possibly the best source one could imagine outside of the CEO. And it was completely unprovoked. It confirmed what I've heard about the RFQ and the 1.8 million square feet. And now, I have a location even though the RFQ respondents don't yet. Another article coming.... 😉

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"Nearly every problem that we have in the USA -- unaffordable health care, prison overpopulation, hyper militarization, climate change, racism, gun violence, poverty, poor education, urban sprawl and others -- cannot be positively addressed because bribery and conflicts of interest are legal under campaign finance laws which protect the uber-wealthy and the narrow self-interests who grossly benefit from our afflictions."

 

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1 hour ago, KJP said:

I have a tidbit from a very good source, possibly the best source one could imagine outside of the CEO.

 

So the CFO!

 

1 hour ago, KJP said:

It confirmed what I've heard about the RFQ and the 1.8 million square feet. And now, I have a location even though the RFQ respondents don't yet. Another article coming.... 😉

 

Can't wait to hear what the location is! Then, I'll at least be able to place the building(s) at the correct location in my Google Sketchup renderings! 🤣 

I'll wait for the article to drop to ask more, but does this mean downtown is strong lock for both HQ and R&D,?

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I won't use the word "lock" until I see caissons being dug. I'm still smarting from seeing buildings demolished for Ameritrust Tower with nothing getting built in their place.

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"Nearly every problem that we have in the USA -- unaffordable health care, prison overpopulation, hyper militarization, climate change, racism, gun violence, poverty, poor education, urban sprawl and others -- cannot be positively addressed because bribery and conflicts of interest are legal under campaign finance laws which protect the uber-wealthy and the narrow self-interests who grossly benefit from our afflictions."

 

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1 hour ago, cfdwarrior said:

So I ran into a teammate last night in my adult hockey league, both of us being injured we were watching the game.  In asking him about his injury I also asked him what he did for a living.  Supervisor for R&D at Sherwin Williams!  Trying not to pry...ok, actually obviously prying, I asked him about his thoughts on DT vs Brecksville.  He just smiled and turned his head and said...no comment.  I then said, as long as your not selling your house and moving to Minneapolis!  He laughed again.  He reverted back to his time returning to work (and this is where I dropped the ball) and said "let me just say I going back to work on the 12th for a reason".   Where I dropped the ball was, at first he thought he was going to be off for an extended period due to hamstring surgery reattachment, but then the timeframe got shortened .   So did he say the 12th?  or 12 weeks? (Which would make it 9 more weeks).  It was loud and I couldn't hear him as well as I would have liked.  Okay super sleuths, would either of these time frames mean anything for announcements?

 

Or he could mean the 12th floor.  I'll still be very surprised if they put their labs downtown, for multiple reasons.   

 

If the HQ is downtown I'm thinking the Jacobs lots are the only big enough spot that's currently empty.

Edited by E Rocc

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6 minutes ago, Geowizical said:

 

So the CFO!

 

 

Can't wait to hear what the location is! Then, I'll at least be able to place the building(s) at the correct location in my Google Sketchup renderings! 🤣 

I'll wait for the article to drop to ask more, but does this mean downtown is strong lock for both HQ and R&D,?

 

I share Ken's enthusiastic skepticism, and can cosign that his source is just about as close to the nucleus as you can get. 

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Just now, E Rocc said:

 

 

Or he could mean the 12th floor.  I'll still be very surprised if they put their labs dowtown, for multiple reasons.   

 

If the HQ is downtown I'm thinking the Jacobs lots are the only big enough spot that's currently empty.

 

If this were 2002, I'd agree with you. But SW wants to ensure they attract the best talent, and in that vain, location matters

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4 minutes ago, YABO713 said:

 

If this were 2002, I'd agree with you. But SW wants to ensure they attract the best talent, and in that vain, location matters

 

Again, the talent they want to attract isn't going to be so much artistic or creative, at least not for R&D.   They want the best of the science geeks.   They haven't changed that much since 2002.

 

Something out by University Circle might make sense, but I don't see the space there.

 

My dad was the safety director for Ferro Corporation.   One of the reasons they had their R&D in Independence was space.   If an experiment goes wrong, the consequences can be controlled easier.  And concealed, for that matter.

Edited by E Rocc
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2 minutes ago, E Rocc said:

 

Again, the talent they want to attract isn't going to be so much artistic or creative, at least not for R&D.   They want the best of the science geeks.   They haven't changed that much since 2002.

 

Something out by University Circle might make sense, but I don't see the space there.

I think Midtown could work for the lab space.

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6 minutes ago, YABO713 said:

 

I share Ken's enthusiastic skepticism, and can cosign that his source is just about as close to the nucleus as you can get. 

 

Oh @YABO713 why'd you have to ruin it by saying "nucleus"?? 😄

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"Nearly every problem that we have in the USA -- unaffordable health care, prison overpopulation, hyper militarization, climate change, racism, gun violence, poverty, poor education, urban sprawl and others -- cannot be positively addressed because bribery and conflicts of interest are legal under campaign finance laws which protect the uber-wealthy and the narrow self-interests who grossly benefit from our afflictions."

 

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Breen Technical Center, which houses the architectural coatings labs, are already downtown.  (if you use the technical definition of downtown Cleveland ) Plus the Old Valspar technical center is smack in the middle of downtown Minneapolis.  SW building their new labs downtown would make total sense

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4 minutes ago, freefourur said:

I think Midtown could work for the lab space.

 

Possibly, yes.   Halfway between the Case labs and the HQ, probably far enough to keep the latter from "dropping in' too casually.

 

But will Cleveland match the deal Brecksville offers?

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any discussion on timeframe for this project is interesting to me - only because the size of their requirement means substantial new construction, probably 2-3 years away, even if a site was selected today.

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1 minute ago, gottaplan said:

any discussion on timeframe for this project is interesting to me - only because the size of their requirement means substantial new construction, probably 2-3 years away, even if a site was selected today.

 

Longer if demolition downtown came into play, correct?

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1 hour ago, KJP said:

My take: he was advised by a company-wide email not to comment publicly on possible facility relocations. And his "back to work on the 12th" comment sounds like a reference to him wanting to stay employed by keeping his mouth shut.

 

I have a tidbit from a very good source, possibly the best source one could imagine outside of the CEO. And it was completely unprovoked. It confirmed what I've heard about the RFQ and the 1.8 million square feet. And now, I have a location even though the RFQ respondents don't yet. Another article coming.... 😉

@KJP I will wait for the article, but just trying to clear up the above.

You said the 1.8mil sqft, and “location”(singular).  So does that mean that both the HQ and the R&D will be at one location?

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Just now, E Rocc said:

 

Possibly, yes.   Halfway between the Case labs and the HQ, probably far enough to keep the latter from "dropping in' too casually.

 

But will Cleveland match the deal Brecksville offers?

 

Considering the cost of the buildings and SHW's net cash flow (and thus it's ability to pay for this project with one, maybe two years of cash), I don't see that public incentives are going to tip the scale for SHW. And I don't see that Cleveland is going to have to match Brecksville's offer.

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"Nearly every problem that we have in the USA -- unaffordable health care, prison overpopulation, hyper militarization, climate change, racism, gun violence, poverty, poor education, urban sprawl and others -- cannot be positively addressed because bribery and conflicts of interest are legal under campaign finance laws which protect the uber-wealthy and the narrow self-interests who grossly benefit from our afflictions."

 

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35 minutes ago, YABO713 said:

 

I share Ken's enthusiastic skepticism, and can cosign that his source is just about as close to the nucleus as you can get. 

 

BTW, for others here who are reading, I asked @YABO713 about the source yesterday to get more information about him and the quality of the source. So Yabo isn't BS'ing here.

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"Nearly every problem that we have in the USA -- unaffordable health care, prison overpopulation, hyper militarization, climate change, racism, gun violence, poverty, poor education, urban sprawl and others -- cannot be positively addressed because bribery and conflicts of interest are legal under campaign finance laws which protect the uber-wealthy and the narrow self-interests who grossly benefit from our afflictions."

 

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29 minutes ago, KJP said:

 

BTW, for others here who are reading, I asked @YABO713 about the source yesterday to get more information about him and the quality of the source. So Yabo isn't BS'ing here.

When’s the article coming out?!? Lol

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