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Cleveland: Downtown: Sherwin-Williams Headquarters

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9 hours ago, tastybunns said:

If I still had my Google Sketchup membership, I'd be able to model something for ya. Looks like it will be pretty extravagant.

Are you implying we should start a GoFundMe? lol

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10 hours ago, Terdolph said:

No it's not.  It's on W. 3rd-look at 55 Public Square.

 

Look at the proposed big building next to the Amazon super-tall.


"Life is 10% what happens to you and 90% how you respond." -- Coach Lou Holtz

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10 hours ago, Terdolph said:

No it's not.  It's on W. 3rd-look at 55 Public Square.

 

At first, I thought the same thing as well, but the supertall with Amazon on top is on the Jacobs lot.  It's kind of hard to tell from the perspective of the drawing, but it's definitely on the east side of W. 3rd, across from the rest of the complex shown.

Edited by jam40jeff
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3 hours ago, jam40jeff said:

 

At first, I thought the same thing as well, but the supertall with Amazon on top is on the Jacobs lot.  It's kind of hard to tell from the perspective of the drawing, but it's definitely on the east side of W. 3rd, across from the rest of the complex shown.

It is hard to tell where that Amazon supertall is.  The contrast graphics not the best in the rendering.  When terdolph said it's not on the jacobs lot, I thought 'oh yeah it's not''...

 

Looking again, it looks like it is on the Jacobs lot as you can almost detect a w 3 border there a bit. There's no way that supertall Amazon building is directly adjacent east of those other towers and all being on the superblock-WHD lots.

 

Regardless, a SW supertall is needed on the Jacobs lot.

 

Where would parking go for any building let alone a very large and supertall building on PS?

Edited by Oxford19

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On 5/22/2019 at 3:37 PM, Oldmanladyluck said:

^Then we could change the name from the Warehouse District (aka Parking Lot District) to the Sherwin Williams District!! 

 

J/K

 

If the company decides it wants to stay in Cleveland- that's a major plus altogether.  

 

What a positive for the city- in what for years has been a negative with the parking lots languishing for decades.  Remember what could have been with Amazon?  Think of what could be possible with an albeit smaller Sherwin Williams?

 

image.png.2ec59544dde40716932c9d7271790936.png

 

If Sherwin Williams went with the Jacobs Lot to build a tower, the tower itself would be a fantastic addition to the city's image.  But i can't disagree that the surrounding lots being developed may have a greater impact on the Parking Lot District.  I'm on the tower side of Sim-Cleveland at this point 🙂

 

So.... I'm told that this WAS one of the early renderings for Sherwin-Williams' HQ tower in 2015 or so. Remember when I said a source said the rendering he saw had a tower about the height of Key Tower but had a smaller but still impressively sized tower next to it? This apparently was it, but he said this was dusted-off and augmented with the additional buildings for the Amazon proposal, to round out Amazon's requirement for 3 million square feet. He didn't know what the second, smaller tower was for -- perhaps the 37-story tower at the SE corner of Weston's Superblock? An R&D facility? Mind you, it's just one source, but it's very intriguing, if true. I'd still like to get my hands on the original to compare them.

 

BTW, the same source said he saw another rendering of the SHW HQ tower that had a twisty top.

Edited by KJP
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Just now, KJP said:

 

So.... I'm told that this WAS one of the early renderings for Sherwin-Williams' HQ tower in 2015 or so. Remember when I said a source said the rendering he saw had a tower about the height of Key Tower but had a smaller but still impressively sized tower next to it? This apparently was it, but he said this was dusted-off and augmented with the additional buildings for the Amazon proposal, to round out Amazon's requirement for 3 million square feet. He didn't know what the second, smaller tower was for -- perhaps the 37-story tower at the SE corner of Weston's Superblock? An R&D facility? Mind you, it's just one source, but it's very intriguing, if true. I'd still like to get my hands on the original to compare them.

 

BTW, the same source said he saw another rendering of the SHW HQ tower that had a twisty top.

So, if SW does build a supertall on PS, then at least part of the WHD lots will be in play as well, besides a parking garage.  That works.

Edited by Oxford19

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Haven't been on here but heard on here Cleveland made an offer to Amazon. Is Amazon still in play? I knew Green deal lady didn't like deal. So are they looking for new location? Where did that Amazon rendering come from?

Edited by Mildtraumatic
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54 minutes ago, Mildtraumatic said:

Is Amazon still in play?

No

 

So are they looking for new location?

No. When they dropped NYC, they decided to only add Northern VA (DC)

 

Where did that Amazon rendering come from?

 

The rendering came from the Cleveland area pitch to Amazon once it was finally made public. 

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Is Amazon still looking for second headquarters? I thought Cleveland offered TT. lol

 

edit Of any city Cleveland should offer the world. VA is their choice, OK. Never the less Cleveland needs to bring aggressive incentives to bring companies here. 

Edited by Mildtraumatic

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2 hours ago, Mildtraumatic said:

Is Amazon still looking for second headquarters? I thought Cleveland offered TT. lol

The second HQ is Northern VA (across the Potomac from DC)

 

And yes, TT was part of Cleveland’s offer to Amazon. Which made more sense once the rest of the pitch was made public, as shown in the renderings recently shared in this thread. 

Edited by Boomerang_Brian
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14 hours ago, jam40jeff said:

 

At first, I thought the same thing as well, but the supertall with Amazon on top is on the Jacobs lot.  It's kind of hard to tell from the perspective of the drawing, but it's definitely on the east side of W. 3rd, across from the rest of the complex shown.

 

What's up with the thumbs down on this, Terdolph?

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16 hours ago, Boomerang_Brian said:

The second HQ is Northern VA (across the Potomac from DC)

 

And yes, TT was part of Cleveland’s offer to Amazon. Which made more sense once the rest of the pitch was made public, as shown in the renderings recently shared in this thread. 

 

But they canceled their first HQ in NYC.

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On 5/23/2019 at 8:06 PM, Mildtraumatic said:

Is Amazon still looking for second headquarters? I thought Cleveland offered TT. lol

 

edit Of any city Cleveland should offer the world. VA is their choice, OK. Never the less Cleveland needs to bring aggressive incentives to bring companies here. 

I disagree.  Giving away money to one of the wealthiest company's in the world to build a headquarters in your area.  Sorry....I don't agree and I'm glad they went elsewhere.  If they want to come without all the subsidies and credits, then fine.  

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On 6/1/2019 at 2:58 PM, MyTwoSense said:

I disagree.  Giving away money to one of the wealthiest company's in the world to build a headquarters in your area.  Sorry....I don't agree and I'm glad they went elsewhere.  If they want to come without all the subsidies and credits, then fine.  

They never would’ve came without all the subsidies and credits and I think we all know that. 🤷🏿‍♂️ I for one wish it was here. Would’ve been amazing for the city

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My biggest concern is that major employers like SHW may try to extract those kinds of concessions/incentives from Cleveland (scaled perhaps to the size of their employment/projected economic impact). Perhaps the only saving grace is that most major cities offered similar incentives.

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Breen+Technology+Center2.jpg

 

FRIDAY, JUNE 7, 2019

Sherwin-Williams has Cleveland's number, thankfully

 

One number can convey a lot information. But it also leaves a number of questions unanswered.

As many longtime readers of this blog know, I've been closely following Sherwin-Williams' (SHW) worsening office space situation and upcoming request for proposals (RFP) to build a new world headquarters (HQ) in the Greater Cleveland area. That coverage earned this blog some mainstream media coverage recently.

A source came to me recently with a succinct piece of information about the global coatings giant: "Sherwin-Williams' RFP has only 330,000 square feet," he said.

 

MORE:

https://neo-trans.blogspot.com/2019/06/sherwin-williams-has-clevelands-number.html

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That's some mighty fine sleuthing work, there!  Hope all this goes as you are laying out, it would be great for the region.

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50 minutes ago, Terdolph said:

Any possibility SW would just complete the building it is in now (probably another 250k square feet) and take over all of the Skylight office tower? There is plenty of space to expand Breen by 170k square feet, no?

 

Sure there's always a possibility. But a few things don't add up with that assumption. You're pretty close to the estimated square footage of finishing the Landmark Office Tower. My measuring of the missing part, based on the existing design of the completed portion along Ontario, is that completing it would add about 275,000 square feet. That's less than 330,000 sf. And SHW doesn't seem interested in expanding into more of the Skylight Office Tower, as there was more than 27,000 sf of vacant space in that building with several leases about to end when SHW decided to spend more than $740,000 to tailor the flex space on Hinckley Industrial Parkway to its growing office needs. And, yes, there is space to expand Breen. But then the RFP would have requested about 190,000 sf. It doesn't. It reportedly says 330,000 sf. That number doesn't match anything else except to replace SHW's total domestic R&D space needs with a new building.

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Could it be possible that SHW is requesting a RFP for the R & D building and that is it.

No New Office Tower, just R & D building. Remember this is Cleveland, where 

disappointments are common nature.

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Allow me to offer a suggestion....don't get so emotionally invested in anything over which you have no control.

 

Let me add that SHW can't start building anything until it pays down its Valspar debt. That won't happen until about late 2022 or early 2023. Work the timelines in reverse from that point. I submit that the HQ offices are in a worse situation than the R&D spaces. The HQ offices are more outdated in their layout, disconnected and inefficient. The biggest drawback with the R&D facilities is that they are separated by 700 miles. But they are well-kept and, at least in Minneapolis, spacious. Both HQ and R&D are being addressed. Working the timeline in reverse means that both the HQ and R&D would be pursued in near lockstep...unless...SHW doesn't intend to pursue a site search for the HQ but does pursue one for the R&D. That means the R&D RFP has to be issued first.

 

Again, as I noted in my article a couple of weeks ago, there is a lot of work being done by many people and companies on this project. They are working on an HQ and an R&D facility. SHW acknowledged it with a public "no comment" followed by an internal email to managers and department heads urging them to not to talk to media about their HQ efforts. Could it all fall apart? Sure, it's fallen apart twice before (1990 and 2016). But the 2016 stoppage was actually a temporary hold, one that is now pointing toward even bigger and better facilities.

Edited by KJP
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3 hours ago, simplythis said:

Remember this is Cleveland, where 

disappointments are common nature.

 

What a silly thing to say. As if other cities don’t have issues or projects that get proposed and not completed. Reality check: they do. 

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Ken,  So what are you hearing about the plans for Warrensville?  BTC is Architectural labs, Minneapolis is General Industrial and military and some other.....Warrensvile does everything else, including automotive, protective and marine, ect.  I'm not sure of Sq FT at Warrensville, but its a big facility. Do you get a sense they are leaving that alone? 

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5 hours ago, marty15 said:

Don’t you think they should just build a 4 story mega campus, starting at the Jacobs lot and weaving through the warehouse district? This would avoid the issue of having an 80-90 story iconic building blocking the view of our existing skyline?

 

Terdolph*

 

I actually really liked the Weston Citymark plans because their frontage along W. 6th was respective of historic buildings, and then they had taller building heights set back. The tallest portion was closest to Jacob’s. I think that SW could do a campus though. If they consolidated everything however unlikely they could do a skyscraper with progressively smaller buildings on the WHD lots. They could have their parking facing Frankfort with curtains of office around them, and some street front retail along W. 6th. 

Edited by imjustinjk
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39 minutes ago, mack34 said:

Ken,  So what are you hearing about the plans for Warrensville?  BTC is Architectural labs, Minneapolis is General Industrial and military and some other.....Warrensvile does everything else, including automotive, protective and marine, ect.  I'm not sure of Sq FT at Warrensville, but its a big facility. Do you get a sense they are leaving that alone? 

 

I'm hearing nothing about Warrensville. SHW seems to be leaving that alone. They treat Automotive Finishes pretty much as an independent operation. 

 

Here is what I wrote about that facility in October 2018....

 

In 2000, SHW acquired a 388,766 SF, 80-acre manufacturing plant and office campus, 4440 Warrensville Center Rd., Warrensville Hts., from BP America (was a Standard Oil facility) for its Automotive Finishes Corp.global headquarters, research and development facility and training center. The administrative headquarters building measures about 30,000 SF and houses about 100-130 (office) employees.

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It will be interesting to see how this plays out.  Warrensville and Minneapolis are much more connected from an R&D standpoint.  It would be nice to see all 3 facilities under one roof, but from a Sq Ft standpoint, that doesn't seem to be the plan.  Nice work!!

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I could definitely see some military R&D being tested out at Warrensville. But I'll bet that doesn't happen as often as the R&D interactions with HQ. And besides, Warrensville is going to be pretty accessible to lab teams wherever the R&D facility ends up in Greater Cleveland.


"Life is 10% what happens to you and 90% how you respond." -- Coach Lou Holtz

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Rumor has it the old Brecksville VA site that is being redeveloped will be pushing hard for SW...hopefully it isn't for more than the R&D... 

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2 minutes ago, scb0525 said:

Rumor has it the old Brecksville VA site that is being redeveloped will be pushing hard for SW...hopefully it isn't for more than the R&D... 

I just don’t understand why a company would relocate out of an urban center to go to...brecksville. Yuck. Even for R&D there’s much better urban locations. 

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37 minutes ago, scb0525 said:

Rumor has it the old Brecksville VA site that is being redeveloped will be pushing hard for SW...hopefully it isn't for more than the R&D... 

 

I’ve heard that they’re pushing for the whole thing. 

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Yep. I met with a member of the DiGeronimo family a few months ago. They definitely want SHW to come to Valor Acres.


"Life is 10% what happens to you and 90% how you respond." -- Coach Lou Holtz

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5 minutes ago, KJP said:

Yep. I met with a member of the DiGeronimo family a few months ago. They definitely want SHW to come to Valor Acres.

I hope SHW knows how devastating a move that would be to Cleveland. 

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15 minutes ago, marty15 said:

I hope SHW knows how devastating a move that would be to Cleveland. 

I know that they would lose at least one customer (aka me) if they do something that crazy. 

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Ironic that what was a big plus for Cleveland and University Circle (the consolidation of the two VA campuses in Cleveland) could turn into an even bigger minus if

SW now moves to the vacant Brecksville property.

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Any developer would love to build for SW just like almost any city would bend over backwards to make way for them.  Cleveland is doing the same to Brecksville, perhaps on a greater scale to Brecksville’s detriment, by attempting to lure Cross Country.  

 

My hope is those who decide on SW’s future home understand the importance of visibility and talent acquisition/retention making DT Cleveland an easy choice.

Edited by Sapper Daddy
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I just can't see SHW going all the way out to pasture. I am pretty sure every single philanthropic body in Cleveland (Cleveland Foundation, GCP, etc). are all going to push for reducing sprawl like this. The city will more than likely give a decent tax break to have a shiny new HQ tower in their skyline. Everyone is going to want them downtown. I know the DiGeronimo family has some clout in CLE, but I don't see it being enough to make a difference. They might get the R&D but that's likely the worst case scenario.

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7 minutes ago, YO to the CLE said:

I just can't see SHW going all the way out to pasture. I am pretty sure every single philanthropic body in Cleveland (Cleveland Foundation, GCP, etc). are all going to push for reducing sprawl like this. The city will more than likely give a decent tax break to have a shiny new HQ tower in their skyline. Everyone is going to want them downtown. I know the DiGeronimo family has some clout in CLE, but I don't see it being enough to make a difference. They might get the R&D but that's likely the worst case scenario.

The one benefit that SHW might have to locating in Brecksville is having access to the Akron labor market as well as Cleveland.  In the end though, I see them using the Brecksville site to extract subsidies from Cleveland. 

Edited by freefourur

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^ I highly doubt SHW is looking to move to Brecksville for that reason. They're able to draw candidates to Cleveland from all over the world. They don't need labor from Akron.

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If the R & D Building goes to Brecksville, and the tower gets built in Downtown Cleveland

Then what was all this talk that the R & D building had to be within walking distance

of the headquarters building.

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I ride the E-line almost every morning. I know it’s only a small percentage, but I see tons of kids my age getting off at public square with SHW gear. There’s a just a huge draw for such a huge company to be in an urban center. Access and public transit is just one of the many things. Cleveland lost a lot with other companies, but suburbanizing HQs seems to be a lot less popular now. What young, educated person wants to be in farmland? 

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I’m saying none of it can go to Brecksville. You need to be able to attract the best talent for your  R&D. All those people in Minneapolis set to relocate are gonna take one look around Brecksville and say no thanks, I’ll find something at home. SHW still needs to retain a good % of the Valspar team. And give them a good reason to come here. It’s a tight labor market.

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Nothing's been decided. And no one said the HQ and R&D structures "had" to be within walking distance. They "like" being within walking distance of each other. I'm sure there are SHW executives who have preferences, but I doubt anyone has made up their minds yet. They don't have any proposals to review yet, so there's no information to weigh. And I'm getting only bits and pieces of information from sources that, every so often, amass enough of a picture to justify sharing them or at least to pose questions based on the pieces of info.

 

One interesting thing to consider is the parking situation for the HQ and R&D facilities -- not just the walking proximity between them. From what little I've heard, it's not part of the square footage info I've heard thus far. But suffice it to say that the parking is going to figure heavily into the upcoming decision-making process. I think it may have a strong influence on where both facilities are located. And they could have a strong influence of how they're going to be built. Consider this -- a parking deck serving both the HQ and the R&D could be in the 3,000-car range. That's 900,000 sf or possibly more! And that's also a cost of $90 million or more. Might be nice to share some of the expenses between the R&D and HQ facilities, and possibly even design the deck to accommodate future expansion above it.

 

SHW Jacobs Lot-Weston scenario.jpg

Edited by KJP
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This whole SW new headquarters building is a 30+ year ''rumor'' complete with proposals etc.  It's an old story.  Currently we have RFP for the end of the year for a new tower, no make that a 300,00 sf R&D project, with the ''family'' wanting everything in Brecksville.  

 

Hope to see a supertall SWH building on Public Square but would not dismiss anything about SW moving to Brecksville or some other suburban location.  Eaton left recently and Progressive isn't planning on moving HQ downtown again.  Then we had the downtown Medical Mutual HQ building rumor mill...

 

Bottom line is SW will do whatever is in its and shareholders' best financial interest.

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42 minutes ago, KJP said:

Nothing's been decided. And no one said the HQ and R&D structures "had" to be within walking distance. They "like" being within walking distance of each other. I'm sure there are SHW executives who have preferences, but I doubt anyone has made up their minds yet. They don't have any proposals to review yet, so there's no information to weigh. And I'm getting only bits and pieces of information from sources that, every so often, amass enough of a picture to justify sharing them or at least to pose questions based on the pieces of info.

 

One interesting thing to consider is the parking situation for the HQ and R&D facilities -- not just the walking proximity between them. From what little I've heard, it's not part of the square footage info I've heard thus far. But suffice it to say that the parking is going to figure heavily into the upcoming decision-making process. I think it may have a strong influence on where both facilities are located. And they could have a strong influence of how they're going to be built. Consider this -- a parking deck serving both the HQ and the R&D could be in the 3,000-car range. That's 900,000 sf or possibly more! And that's also a cost of $90 million or more. Might be nice to share some of the expenses between the R&D and HQ facilities, and possibly even design the deck to accommodate future expansion above it.

 

SHW Jacobs Lot-Weston scenario.jpg

Based on this footprint how many floors would that be for the tower and the 3000 car parking garage?

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Just now, simplythis said:

Based on this footprint how many floors would that be for the tower and the 3000 car parking garage?

A 3,000 car parking garage and tower in one....geez, and on the jacobs lot...can't imagine that even being considered.

 

The AmeriTrust Tower plans had the parking garage on the west side of W 3rd Street, now known as the Weston-WHD lots.

 

Edited by Oxford19

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It's about 300-350 square feet per parking space for a parking garage (includes aisles, elevator lobbies, etc). Putting a SHW parking deck on the Weston lots with this footprint would mean a parking garage about 11.6 levels tall.

 

Put it on the Jacobs lot with a 1.2M-1.3M tower above it?? Actually, the footprint for the Jacobs lot is about 50,000 sf. So the deck would be about 18 levels. Not that horrible, although it would take a while to drive up to the 18th level! 😛


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